Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on April 30, 2002, 06:02:04 PM
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My two changes would be:
- Get rid of the Bar-Dar feature on the maps.
- Turn off the Mission Editor.
It is clear to me that surreptitious stealth missions do not have a chance in Aces High, because the Bar-Dar alerts the enemy to the approaching attack, even if the stealth group is below radar cover. Add to that the flashing warning on the map, the siren and Yankee warning that there is a ”Base under attack”, and any stealth mission is doomed to failure.
As for the Mission Editor, at first I thought this might be a good idea, but it’s nothing more than a gangbang generator. I never join these missions because I know they’re just going to develop into gangbangs. Where’s the challenge in that? I look at the map, and when I see a green blob I know that the Mission Editor has been activated. Several times an hour, I hear the call go up for LANCs, B17s, Tiffies, P38s and Goons to up from field Axx. On one recent mission, the organiser called for ten goons. Yes, TEN goons! A gangbang, if ever there was one, assuming the count of other aircraft was in proportion to the number of goons.
OK, and here is why HTC will never implement these changes. And the main reason is that the typical AH player likes gangbangs, and enjoys flying in a group of 10 guys vulching a couple of cons trying to defend their field. Seems that Doofus-Dweebius wants nothing more than to smash down the enemy by brute force, and as I have said before: the outcome is about as predictable and interesting as pondering the fate of a wine glass when dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a stone floor. :rolleyes:
I would prefer a thinking man’s game akin to Chess, and not the aerial boxing match/tag wrestling fight that we have right now. But, it seems that we will never see that in AH :(
Finally, I need to add that the number of replies to this post will be in direct proportion to gangbangery quotient and overall co-efficient of dweebery in Aces High. Come on, don’t disappoint me, guys. :D And Rude – consider me up for the WotW nomination :D
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check out my whine... i think i got u beat:p
roflmao
interesting idea though, but i don't care for it.
for having the chaones to put it up
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Get rid of the Bar-Dar feature on the maps.
If you go under 500' AGL they won't see you.
Turn off the Mission Editor.
It's a team sport. If you want 1 vs. 1 check out the dueling arena. :)
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beet1e wrote; As for the Mission Editor, at first I thought this might be a good idea, but it’s nothing more than a gangbang generator. I never join these missions because I know they’re just going to develop into gangbangs. Where’s the challenge in that?
Beet1e
You are obviously joining or witnessing the wrong missions...
Missions can be complex, strategic and extremely interesting if they are put together properly.... Buffs lift 15 minutes b4 escorts
Rendevous with escorts... close formation flying...
I invite you to join one of our 327th Steel Talons Missions...
Our squad nites are Wed and Saturday at 9:00pm est.
In ROOK land...
BOOT
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ive actually never seen the dar bar work right under 500 - still shows up :(
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Originally posted by beet1e
My two changes would be: - Get rid of the Bar-Dar feature on the maps.
- Turn off the Mission Editor.
It is clear to me that surreptitious stealth missions do not have a chance in Aces High, because the Bar-Dar alerts the enemy to the approaching attack, even if the stealth group is below radar cover. Add to that the flashing warning on the map, the siren and Yankee warning that there is a ”Base under attack”, and any stealth mission is doomed to failure.
Seems that Doofus-Dweebius wants nothing more than to smash down the enemy by brute force, and as I have said before: the outcome is about as predictable and interesting as pondering the fate of a wine glass when dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a stone floor. :rolleyes:
[/B]
You want to milkrun undefended fields, and they're the weenies for wanting to vulch?
You somehow think that the outcome of your sneak attack is less pre-ordained than that of a heavy attack on a defended field. I would think that conclusion somewhat difficult to defend.
Originally posted by beet1e
I would prefer a thinking man’s game akin to Chess, and not the aerial boxing match/tag wrestling fight that we have right now. But, it seems that we will never see that in AH :(
Let's hope. The strategic element is not what attracted me to this game, or to Air Warrior before that. I'm in it for the fight, not the war.
If you want a game akin to chess, why not try playing chess, then?
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Good point. If you want Chess, you should play Chess, or Combat Mission, or at least fly scenarios. The MA at best is Tic-Tac-Toe or Checkers. It's the kiddie pool where the least common denominator rules. But it's full of things to blow up. :)
Wing up, get kills, be happy.
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Rude, can we have two winners in the same week?
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LOL! only 2 hours, and 6 replies already. You guys just couldn't stay away :D
I do play Chess - hence my use of the analogy. But I do not, nor did I ever, play that idiotic schoolboy version of Chess, in which every pawn counts as a Queen, in addition to the Queen itself. That is a scenario in which something gets taken every move. Totally infantile and stupid.
And that's the way I feel about....
...no, I wont say it ;)
Pbirmingham - fair comment. But you and I are diametrically opposed in what we want from a sim like AH. I am in it for the war, not for the fight. After all, the role of fighters was to provide air support. What's the use in that if there's nothing to support?
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Hey Beetle. Fun flying with you in the vicinity of A5 and A22 this evening.
I actually agree about the Dar Bar. But rather than have it abandoned completely, I'd almost have it function more like real WW2 radar. Lots of ghost images, false hits, etc. You're right that it is pretty much omniscient at the moment, the below 500 thing has never worked for me.
Disagree about the mission editor, however. It doesn't automatically translate into a gang, at least from my experience. Indeed, I've been part of some very good base defenses that have broken up poorly coordinated missions that thought they were setting up for a gang. And I've also been parts of armadas that broke up because of poor coordination, etc.
So I'm not really seeing the mission editor unbalancing the MA in any way--in fact, I don't see it being used that much, not as much as I expected when I first joined AH, anyway.
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Beet you want a war but no organized missions? You think they went out in onesies and twosies in WW2?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Pbirmingham - fair comment. But you and I are diametrically opposed in what we want from a sim like AH. I am in it for the war, not for the fight. After all, the role of fighters was to provide air support. What's the use in that if there's nothing to support?
It's a lot of fun, that's the use in it!
You see Aces High as being like a strategy game, with rewarding, deep skills to be mastered, much like the rewards that unfold before a student of chess.
There's another aspect of mastery to Aces High, with its own skills and rewards. The comparison may be pompous, but I think of mastering the skills of ACM as having similar rewards to the martial arts.
Those guys punching and kicking each other are doing things that may seem useless -- what good are all those jumping kicks when there are no mounted soldiers to dismount -- but people who have mastered the art seem to get a lot out of it.
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I always love it when people speak in absolutist terms about what should or should not be considered fun. :D
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Taiaha – yes, I remember flying with you recently, and it was good. I could not work out how to pronounce your name to give you a 6-call, but you seemed to recognise my attempt. Interesting that you use the word omniscient – The only other time I heard the word was in the WW2 film, Where Eagles Dare, and Colonel Turner (Patrick Wymark) said it during the mission briefing: ”Neither Admiral Rolland nor myself claim to be omniscient; is there something that we’ve missed?”
Funked up – I didn’t say that people should go in onesies and twosies; I said turn off the mission editor. One is not synonymous with the other! By which I mean that missions can still be organised without the ME. We did it in WB, remember? The thing I hate is all this ”Let’s up 4 LANCs, 6 B17s, 8 Tiffies, a couple of dozen P38s and 10 goons, and see if we can capture a small field”, conveniently leaving up enough hangars to ensure adequate vulching opportunities, which is the main reason why many join the mission in the first place. That’s why we see so many N1Ks appearing at a field that’s about to fall.
There’s nothing wrong with organising a covert mission amongst a group of likeminded guys. It’s the lynch mob mentality I can’t stand.
Toad is right – it’s just a game, but at the same time we clamour for realism...
Pbirmingham, If that’s what you want, fine. But I can tell you that the pilots of WW2 did not liken their skills to a martial arts contest. There was none of this WTG stuff that we see in various sims. My father was in the Royal Air Force during WW2 (though was barred from aerial duties on medical grounds). He knew enough of the pilots to know that most were scared stiff. The average life expectancy for those front line guys was about 6 weeks. I know there were aerial aces who got hundreds of kills, but I am inclined to believe that it was due to circumstances in addition to skill. They didn’t go up with the intention of honing up their “martial arts” skills; they went up not knowing if they would still be alive at the end of it.
One last thing - I stayed up very late last night in AH - 3am for me. And the game is very different then from 6-9 hours earlier. Seems like I work better with you Yanks :D
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I agree the mission gangbang planner is useless. gangbangs pop up on their own. The planner just give the ma generals an excuse to scream over channel 2 "join my well planned clever gangbang"
Some will come and tell you this is the "organization" we need in the main.
I mean if one were inclined you could almost develope a whole campaign with the mission planner. Different "missions" hitting a wide range of targets moving toward an overall goal. But thats a bit much for the main general.
"join my mission"
10 f4us
10 typhies
5 lanc
5 b17s
10 la7s
5 goons
"join now we need to get organized" lol
get rid of it or lemme squelch channel 2
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Sneaking up to an undefended base and bombing/capturing it = GOOD
Massing an armada and flying en mass to the nearest enemy base (all the while on dar, giving the enemy the opportunity to mount a meaningless defense) = BAD
Just wanted to be sure I was reading your post correctly, as it makes absolutely no sense. For the senselessness of the post alone, I rate it a 3.5...you lost a lot of points for the lack of truly inflammatory material, tho'. Sorry.
SOB
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1 more reason to spend some hours in AH.... a good chat :-)
Sometimes its more funny to talk BS after work with some pals instead of killing or getting killed :-)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Pbirmingham, If that’s what you want, fine. But I can tell you that the pilots of WW2 did not liken their skills to a martial arts contest. There was none of this WTG stuff that we see in various sims. My father was in the Royal Air Force during WW2 (though was barred from aerial duties on medical grounds). He knew enough of the pilots to know that most were scared stiff. The average life expectancy for those front line guys was about 6 weeks. I know there were aerial aces who got hundreds of kills, but I am inclined to believe that it was due to circumstances in addition to skill. They didn’t go up with the intention of honing up their “martial arts” skills; they went up not knowing if they would still be alive at the end of it.
See the pilots in WWII were scared. They were scared that they were going to die. I'm scared when I play AH. I'm scared that I might spill my beer trying to scissor with Shane on my 6. WWII pilots were actually killing people. Killing people is a very grim business. I have yet to literally kill anyone while playing AH. AH is NOT a grim business. It's fun. And although I've never read HTCs business model, I'm pretty sure that that's what Aces High is meant to be. No matter whether there is any bar dar or Mission Editor I will not be scared to fight in AH. No matter what changes you envision I will not feel remorse for my opponents, because they will not be dead. Instead, I will use Runny's Martial Arts metaphore, Just as Shaw used it in the Introduction to the AWDOS manual.
If you want to have a vigil, and pay your respects to the Men of the RAF that's great. You can light ensense and chant the roll call of honoured dead if that's your deal. But I'll be busy diving into a furball with a cyber-death-wish. If you want to be dead serious about Aces High, that's your call too. But I'm going to be drinking a beer and having fun with friends.
As far as your grand strategy goes, you might want to look into the scenario corps.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by beet1e
[/list]
> It is clear to me that surreptitious stealth missions do not have a chance in Aces High
That sounds like an "as it should be" . How many stealth mission were pulled off in WWII?
>As for the Mission Editor, at first I thought this might be a good idea, but it?s nothing more than a gangbang generator
Or a target generator, depends on your point of view I guess. I'm certainly not going to ask YOU to use your head and pick off planes from an advantage vs the targets. You must be a knight.
>OK, and here is why HTC will never implement these changes. And the main reason is that the typical AH player likes gangbangs, and enjoys flying in a group of 10 guys vulching a couple of cons trying to defend their field.
Or like last night, 2 MOL capping a field (your "couple cons") that called up 12 low knight targets for us (woohooo, targets), go figure, you can make your own action if you actually engage your brain.
> Seems that Doofus-Dweebius wants nothing more than to smash down the enemy by brute force, and as I have said before: the outcome is about as predictable and interesting as pondering the fate of a wine glass when dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a stone floor. :rolleyes:
Hmm, those are my targets, my outcome certainly differs from yours. Your predictability is noted though. Become a Doofus-Dweebius hunter lad.
>I would prefer a thinking man?s game akin to Chess
engage the noodle chuckie
> and not the aerial boxing match/tag wrestling fight that we have right now.
noodle disengaged obviously
>But, it seems that we will never see that in AH :(
well, you wont for a few years I think
>Finally, I need to add that the number of replies to this post will be in direct proportion to gangbangery quotient and overall co-efficient of dweebery in Aces High. Come on, don?t disappoint me, guys. :D
Do gangbang hunting chess masters count?
> And Rude ? consider me up for the WotW nomination :D
*hic*
[/B]
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Originally posted by beet1e
My two changes would be: - Get rid of the Bar-Dar feature on the maps.
- Turn off the Mission Editor.
It is clear to me that surreptitious stealth missions do not have a chance in Aces High, because the Bar-Dar alerts the enemy to the approaching attack, even if the stealth group is below radar cover. Add to that the flashing warning on the map, the siren and Yankee warning that there is a ”Base under attack”, and any stealth mission is doomed to failure.[/B]
Not entirely. You should try running a ground attack when the sun starts to go down. Enemy pilots will get up to 5,000 alt lickety-split and never think to look low in the bush. And there's also the advantage of being on the offensive - you know which base you're going after, or what target you're going to hit, whereas the defending nation has to get some pilots together and launch in time to intercept you before you get too close.
Originally posted by beet1e
As for the Mission Editor, at first I thought this might be a good idea, but it’s nothing more than a gangbang generator. I never join these missions because I know they’re just going to develop into gangbangs. Where’s the challenge in that?
The challenge is getting the base before enough enemy planes come up to smack down your gooney. The Mission Editor is a great equalizer to the limited sneak attacks that can be done. If you're looking for a smaller fight, don't join the group.
Originally posted by beet1e
OK, and here is why HTC will never implement these changes. And the main reason is that the typical AH player likes gangbangs, and enjoys flying in a group of 10 guys vulching a couple of cons trying to defend their field. Seems that Doofus-Dweebius wants nothing more than to smash down the enemy by brute force, and as I have said before: the outcome is about as predictable and interesting as pondering the fate of a wine glass when dropped from a height of 10 feet onto a stone floor. :rolleyes:
Actually, if I'm in a situation where there's a concentration of friends and foes, I usually stay on the periphery of the furballs, preferring to pick off the straggles that come out. Either that or I go on a high-alt bomber intercept patrol. I do enjoy flying with groups, and capturing fields, and marching across the map like Sherman marched across Georgia. Isn't that the ultimate goal strategically?
Also, if you don't want a gang-bang base capture situation, why are you so concerned about making it easier to capture a base with a sneak attack? You want to make it easier for you to capture a base by yourself; to rule the world on your own?
Originally posted by beet1e
Finally, I need to add that the number of replies to this post will be in direct proportion to gangbangery quotient and overall co-efficient of dweebery in Aces High. Come on, don’t disappoint me, guys. :D And Rude – consider me up for the WotW nomination :D
Nick Leeson of the Barings Bank is keeping a running tab in his '88888' account :)
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hmm... seems you are at cross purposes.
Turning off the dar makes it harder to find a fight. If yu let ppeople know where the action is they will furball there.. simple as that. Furballs are not gangbangs. Gangbangs happen with organization or... with lack of info. if you fly a sector and a half and run into 20 cons circling a base... you will get gangbanged. If you knew they were there you woulda stayed away. 4 pee 51's above you when you are alone looking for a fight is also a form of gangbang. 8 guys going out to meet 12 half way between fields is not.
mission editor... sissy crap. ego massager for the skilless and wanna be " leaders of men."
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
mission editor... sissy crap. ego massager for the skilless and wanna be " leaders of men."
lazs
Ur of course entitled to your opinion, but my favorite thing about the ME is the elimination of the, "Howmuchgas, Wherewegoing, Dowecarrybombs, Who'sgotthegoon, Wholeadsflight type of incessant questioning that was prevalent w/o it.
dh
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Originally posted by lazs2
hmm... seems you are at cross purposes.
Turning off the dar makes it harder to find a fight. If yu let ppeople know where the action is they will furball there.. simple as that. Furballs are not gangbangs. Gangbangs happen with organization or... with lack of info. if you fly a sector and a half and run into 20 cons circling a base... you will get gangbanged. If you knew they were there you woulda stayed away. 4 pee 51's above you when you are alone looking for a fight is also a form of gangbang. 8 guys going out to meet 12 half way between fields is not.
mission editor... sissy crap. ego massager for the skilless and wanna be " leaders of men."
lazs
What do ya call it if four squadmates are enroute to a base one sector away to fight against eight enemy and while enroute, they notice one lone enemy aircraft below and attack it, killing it and then proceed to the original destination, all the while laughing and insulting each other and poking fun at comments made on channel 1?
Just curious.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Pbirmingham, If that’s what you want, fine. But I can tell you that the pilots of WW2 did not liken their skills to a martial arts contest. There was none of this WTG stuff that we see in various sims. My father was in the Royal Air Force during WW2 (though was barred from aerial duties on medical grounds). He knew enough of the pilots to know that most were scared stiff. The average life expectancy for those front line guys was about 6 weeks. I know there were aerial aces who got hundreds of kills, but I am inclined to believe that it was due to circumstances in addition to skill. They didn’t go up with the intention of honing up their “martial arts” skills; they went up not knowing if they would still be alive at the end of it.
And these men would have been insane to think of war the way I think of Aces High. They were risking their lives for their families and countries, while I'm doing this for fun. SikBoy put it best, when he said (I paraphrase) that they stood to lose their lives, while we stand to spill our beer.
When my wife's uncle told me he flew fighters in WWII, my first words were "I envy you except for the 'getting shot at' part." He understood.
Still, even with death around every corner, some of these men engaged in mock dogfights with their comrades. Bob Hoover's autobiography tells of mock dogfights he had with Chuck Yeager. So, yes, their business was conducted with deadly seriousness, but many of them enjoyed developing and using the skills it involved, even in "sparring matches" that weren't associated with the war.
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Originally posted by funkedup
But it's full of things to blow up. :)
Wing up, get kills, be happy.
That will cost you $0.50 in royalties there funked ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
4 pee 51's above you when you are alone looking for a fight is also a form of gangbang.
lazs
Poor Lazs...
I would say that the fight found you then, didn't it?
Pseudo posted by lazs2
I want to know exactly where the fight is at all times.
I want to be able to be in the fight without having to fly to it, but I don't want it too close that I will be vulched on the runway.
I want the odds to be close to even so I don't have to be gangbanged or join in the gangbang. If I get jumped by more planes than me when I am all alone, it's a gangbang, but not if I jump another plane when I have a wingman and he doesn't.
I want and endless supply of ammo because I want the enemy to be able to spawn endless planes, no matter how much of the base is destroyed, in fact the base should be indestructable.
If anyone does not like the way I play, or wants to play another way, it is my right to call them start-potatos, sky accountants, gangbangers, land grabbers, or whatever other low-brow expression I can think up at the time.
pseudo-lazs
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Originally posted by Rude
What do ya call it if four squadmates are enroute to a base one sector away to fight against eight enemy and while enroute, they notice one lone enemy aircraft below and attack it, killing it and then proceed to the original destination, all the while laughing and insulting each other and poking fun at comments made on channel 1?
Just curious.
Depends. If I'm the poor sod flying alone, I call it "serves me right."
If I'm with squadmates, we call it "a light snack."
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Beetie!
Why dont you come to rooks! Thats the solution for you. We dont have huge missions. We dont have even dar bar or radar because our HQ is down most of the time. In rookland you have target rich environment and gives you all you want from online sim.
:D :D :D :D :rolleyes:
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OMG Mipoikel, that was to darn funny and remarkably true!!! :D
I thought Beet1e was a Rook though...I saw him flying Rook the other morning unless there is another Beetle out there.
-Kuben
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ROFLMAO
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I think you hit the nail on the head there mipoikel...
It does seem that ROOKLAND fits most of his description...
With the exception that we have FUN...
BOOT
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i think the bar should not actualy show in the square where you actualy are but from one of the ajoining squares .. that way the defenders get a 5 min Early warning but will not know exactly where it is comming from... or another way have 1 darbar to represent 9 grid squares...
also i would raise the so called radar height to 2000 ft and have no icons below 100 ft.. that would be a compromise for both schools of thought i think..
personaly i would have no icons until shooting range, and no dar bars..just dot dar tied into the base dar.:)
still love the game though