Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: LLv34_Camouflage on April 30, 2002, 11:06:09 PM
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(http://www.hut.fi/u/vpitkane/LLv34/hasse_wind.jpg)
Hasse Wind in his "BW-393". Wind is the world's top scoring Brewster ace with 39 confirmed victories. He achieved a total of 75 victories, flying in Finland's Elite Squadron Lentolaivue 24. He received the highest military decoration of the Finnish Armed Forces - the Mannerheim Cross - twice.
Now with all the early pacific war planes coming in the next patch, I think it would be great to have the Brewster model 239, the export model of the F2A-1 in Aces High.
A few good reasons:
1) The Finns achieved a kill/loss ratio of 32:1 in the Brewsters during over three years of fighting (June 25th 1941 - September 4th 1944) against the numerically superior Soviet Air Force. The Brewster earned the nickname "Pearl of the Sky" by its pilots.
2) The Brewster won the contract competition for the first monoplane fighter of the US Navy in 1938, against the F4F Wildcat.
Gordon Firebaugh, former Naval Aircraft Pilot with VF-2, later Captain USN:
I flew the F4F after we got switched around in early 1942. I got shot down over Santa Isabel ... and I've often thought that, I wish, I'd been better off in a Brewster. I think it would have matched the Zero - the F4F was heavier and didn't have the turning radius. During that fight, I met up with five Zeros, shot down three before I got shot down. I spent a long time in the water, until I got to land and met one of the coastwatchers...
Greg "Pappy" Boyington:
"It was a DOG!" ... "But the early models, before they weighed it all down with armorplate, radios and other toejam, they were pretty sweet little ships. Not real fast, but the little diddlys could turn and roll in a phonebooth. Oh yeah--sweet little ship; but some engineer went and diddlyed it up."
3) It will have extensive use in AH scenarios.
4) It looks like a bumble bee with the yellow east front stripes.
Here is some good information on the Brewster: http://www.danford.net/buff.htm
HTC, please consider adding the Brewster in Finnish Air Force markings into Aces High.
Thank you,
Camo
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I agree 100%:)
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I agree 200%.
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// fats
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I was actually thinking the same thing the other night while browsing through "Finnish Aces of WWII" by Osprey books.
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I agree at least 300%
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Yep, I think that would be a sweet little addition.
i am gonna have to agree at...... 150%
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I agree 400%.
mit
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i love their language :) (must been all the dogfights)
we need the light version
the one used by the finnish ?
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That guy shot down 3 of 5 Zeros before getting shot down, and he says 'if only I'd had a Buffalo'. Talk about high self-esteem. ;)
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I agree, Its time to bring Brewster (http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster.html) to AH. Maybe we will see it at next patch :)
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FYI, I believe that the Royal Air Force Museum Hendon (North London) are revealing a Brewster Buffalo for display sometime in 2003! :)
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I'll add to Camo's post...
5) There was a time when AH didn't have early-war planeset at all. With the introduction of the Hurricanes AH's slowest fighter's top speed dropped about 25 mph. Now being about 325 mph. When slowest fighter speeds in AH were 50 mph or more higher than Brewster's top speed (298 mph) I wanted to be realistic and didn't believe in the introduction of the Brewster. But now I think we could do at least one more 25 mph hop backwards in fighter top speed. ;)
Brewster Model 239 is the only plane I *really* want. It is always great that new planes are added and I'll fly and have fun with them for a while. But Brewster would be so much more than that for me and many many other finns. :)
Please HTC, make our dream come true! :)
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Yasuhiko Kuroe has shot down Australian Brewster Buffalo by Ki-44-I "Shoki" in 1/15/1942.
That was the first kill of Ki-44 Shoki.
"Show me the Shoki and Buffalo!" :)
-Mitsu
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http://pigeonh.free.fr/ki442.htm
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Brewster into AH!
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Yup, since it was scorned by the USN, it has to have the Finnish markings. They seemed to have loved the things, and were the most successful users.
Plus it would be fun to have Wildcat v Buffalo battles.
Were the Finn's Buffalos still carrier capable?
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Jack,
The naval equipment was removed in Finnish Buffalo.
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I put my name on this list.
I want Brewster and I-16 or I-15 + SB3
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Thanks for the support, guys! :)
From -MY-'s website: (http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster.html)
To the purchasers surprise all US Navy "property" were removed at the factory from the Brewsters bought by Finland: guns, sights, instruments and carrier equipment. Initially separately purchased Aldis-optical (binocular) sights were used, but in the spring of 1941 before reflector sights (Finnish Väisäla T.h.m.40 sights which were based on Revi 3c) were installed in the Finnish Brewsters. Metric instruments were installed in Finnish Brewsters. The Finnish B-239 "export"-models were equipped with refurbished R-1820 G-5 engines taken from DC-3 airliners.
The reduced weight from removing the carrier equipment helped to make it even more maneuverable. The B-239 was really a screamer at the time...
Camo
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Yup.. we _NEED_ this Pearl :)
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Agree 500.332566845 %
:)
The finnish version.
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I know the RAF rejected the Brewster for ETO use, but in combat against the Japanese it didn't seem to do any worse than the Hurricane.
Was a Buffalo more manouvreable than the Hurricane, or superior in any other way?
Vladd
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Oops, just checked one of Camos links :)
http://www.danford.net/eagle.htm
The Brewster looks a pretty fine addition to me.
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Vladd, notice that the evaluation is of the model 339, the heavier and already "spoiled" Brewster.
Camo
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ra said:
That guy shot down 3 of 5 Zeros before getting shot down, and he says 'if only I'd had a Buffalo'. Talk about high self-esteem.
END QUOTE
You can always tell a Naval Aviator... You just can't tell them much:D
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Fully agreed with Camo!
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Hey come on rest of the finns!! ;) If you haven't registered yet...do so now and show your support for the Brewster!! :)
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YES!! We need the Brewster if for nothing else than to have a clear-cut "ugliest ride in AH" winner :)
... Boyington was SO eloquent eh? That guys been my hero since Baa Baa Blacksheep!!
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Yeaaa...i put name on this list too.
JussiK
Lentolaivue 34
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"Was a Buffalo more manouvreable than the Hurricane, or superior in any other way? -Vladd"
According to FAF pilots the Brewster was TOTALLY superior compared to VVS hurricane I´s and II´s. :D
julle CO =Flak Panzer Oilers=
P.S. WTG and thumbs up for you guys getting the BW in AH!
(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/brewster.gif)
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A big YES for Brewster. Notice, B-239 is not Buffalo. It is Brewster!
Hurricane versus Brewster, by Hans Wind:
The easiest one to shoot down of the enemy fighters is the Hurricane. It is totally helpless against us below 3,000 meters. It is slow and very clumsy and unmanoeuvrable. Whenever you meet a Hurricane, engage it in a turn-fight, where it is totally at our mercy. It is best to shoot this plane in the forward part of the fuselage when it almost immediately bursts into flames.
The Hurricane and Spitfire are slow and clumsy fighters at low altitudes. They seek dogfights at high altitudes (over 5,000 m.) where their characteristics are extremely good. Used these days as night-fighters by the enemy. The Spitfire is faster than the Hurricane.
Reference:
Hans Wind's lectures about air combat tactics, 1943: http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/WW2History.html
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Quoted with permission:
"Brewster Model 239, the most successful fighter aircraft in the history of aviation.
-It has the best exchange ratio, 38:1 (air to air killratio)
-It produced 1.3 aces from it's pilots per each airframe built
-It has the highest scoring single airframe known in history, 41 kills for one airframe.
-The highest scoring non-german fighter ace made almost half of his kills with it.
-Was in operational front line service from 1940 to 1944."
Elk
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I put my name in list too :D
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Agreed. 10000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000%
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Yeah, alright, I'll put my name here too.
Out of curiosity, what aircraft did the Swedish volounteers fly? was it this one?
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The Swedish volunteers flew in Winter War.
They were equipped with Gloster Gladiator fighters and Hawker Hart bombers.
See:
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/f19.htm
http://www.tendens.se/nicolas/
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Hortlund U are a swedish layer and don´t know this? :confused:
NO offence intended! :D
Skål, julle
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Innnnnnnn!!!!!!! :cool:
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Originally posted by julle
Hortlund U are a swedish layer and don´t know this? :confused:
NO offence intended! :D
Skål, julle
Yeah, well, contrary to popular belief, they dont teach us stuff like that at lawschool. :cool:
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I add my vote.
Anza
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Well... I thought that as you were a layer you would be perseverance enough to do some backround research in WWII history. Unlike most of the "SIM" dweebs that run to play straight from the commando comics. Especially since this particular part of WWII history involves your motherland...
That´s all...
Den glider in i mål igen, julle :D
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count me in.
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Originally posted by julle
Well... I thought that as you were a layer you would be perseverance enough to do some backround research in WWII history. Unlike most of the "SIM" dweebs that run to play straight from the commando comics. Especially since this particular part of WWII history involves your motherland...
That´s all...
Den glider in i mål igen, julle :D
Motherland sounds awfully Russian somehow...
ANYWAY
I could do some reading up on the subject, check various sources etc
OR
I could just ask here, and get a reply that I can be fairly sure is both accurate and detalied...
I guess I'm just lazy...
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I want my Brewster!
If it was not mentioned the model exported to Finland had less HP than the later model and was thus lighter, and it was more maneuverable too, which may explain partly why the Finnish Brewsters were more successful than others and were considered very agile aircraft.
However, despite its agility, The Finns had to use pendulum tactics against some Russian planes as I-16s and I-153s which were slower but more agile still than the Brw.
-Charge+
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Yes, give us Brewster!
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yeah give us brewsters without machine guns and armor so they stay light and turn fast and we'll throw rocks at the enemy planes, but not too many cause thy'll weigh down the airplane.
but any new plane is good,so i'd like to see the brewster too,tho i'll probably fly it just once.
i'm sure it will not be introduced in this game.:p
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Im confident we will get our pearl.:)
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We need that plane against evil La-7 ;)
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Yes, please, one Brewster for me, thank you.
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Oh Yes!
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Hortlund are you saying you skipped elementary school and went directly to lawschool? Or are you saying that the level of swedish lawschools are so low that their students lack elementary grade history knowledge of their neighbours..?
:cool:
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Originally posted by Grendel
A big YES for Brewster. Notice, B-239 is not Buffalo. It is Brewster!
Noted. We probably have the Brits to thank for the Buffalo name.
Bring the Brewster!
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Juu, ryysteri AH:hon. Jos ei muu auta, niin Tesoman HORNETit asialle ja panssarijoukot on valmiudessa kanssa! :D
Olkkosen baarista lupasivat sissejä tarvittaessa! ;)
suur-kouhia, Tesoman omistaja
http://www.eztargets.com
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I agree 105% until the maximum allowable War Emergency Agreeing Time runs out and I have to reduce my agreeing back to 100%.
If we ever get the Brewster into AH, it should be the plane which had beer bottle labels instead of stripes as kill markings on the tail.
Of course, the BW needs it adversaries as well, the I-16 and I-153 would be nice. Plumpy too, they are. And continuing in the plumpiness vein, I would most of all like to see the Me163 in AH. :)
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Ahhh.... Meatball,
You mean Kapteeni (Capt) Eino Luukkanen's BW-393 with Karjala (Karelia) beer labels :) :) ...the MAN who later became the CO of Lentolaivue 34 :)
That idea gets my vote :D
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(1.)If we ever get the Brewster into AH, (2.)it should be the plane which had beer bottle labels instead of stripes as kill markings on the tail.
1. We will.
2. Definetely. It has to be one with Karjala labels on it's rudder. I see no point in adding any other brewster instead.
Bring Karjala labels to AH!!!! :D
(http://www.hartwall.fi/tuotekuvat/karjala_4-5.jpg)
For our non finnish types...Karjala (Karelia) was area of Finland which was lost to Soviets after Winter War(1939-40). "Karjala takaisin!" ("Get back the Karelia!") was not unusual phrase especially at start of continuation war (1941-44).
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You would actually need multiple kill sortie to get drunk. :)
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(http://www.byterapers.com/~grendel/scan/brewster02.gif)
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MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! :D
(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/brewster.gif)
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uhhh.. PUNT... We really WANT this plane ;)
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:cool:
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Yeah, little mean fighter :) Bring it to AH!
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Yea give us the brewster!
I have wanted this plane into AH since i saw it first time :P
pls give it to us :)
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No offense guys but this thread should have dies 3 weeks ago.
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ergRTC, this thread is currently 13 days old.
FYI, 3 weeks is 21 days.
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Yeah, 2 weeks then. I like the brewster too, but I just couldnt find the unsubscribe. Found it now....
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(http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/kuvat/Uberfinns-Logo.gif)
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I just noticed that the tactical number of BW-364 was changed. When Illu Juutilainen flew it until March 1943, it had the orange 4, which is shown in that 3DSMAX model by JG5_Jerry. That photo above shows it with 6 as its tactical number. Notice also the "farting elk" emblem on the tail. :)
And since it has the full yellow east front stripe in the nose, the photo has been taken in 1943 or spring 1944. Anybody know more of this? Who's flying it in the picture, Lapra Nissinen, Nils Katajainen?
Camo
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That number 6 is actually BW-354 flied by Heimo Lampi. Picture was taken in Tiiksjärvi late September 1942.
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Camo,
According to SIH 1 that photo was taken end of september 1942.
Though, as you...I find this hard to believe. Since there's a photo in SIH 11 of BW-364 dated "spring 1943" with "orange 4" and all 36-kill marks on the rudder. As you said Juutilainen flew BW-364 until he left to pick up Bf109G-2s in march 1943. And those aren't Juutilainen's kills on the rudder.
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Matson, that plane closest in the picture is BW-364...that's the plane Camo means.
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But it is BW-354 :D
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Camo, have a guess from where did I pick my handle :D
Elk
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Wow. Very informative thread. I was always under the impression the Buffalo was one of the major dogs of the war, though I always had great respect for the Hurricane. A few quotes really have me interested in learning more about the Buffalo...
"Climb and Dive - The climb to 15,000 feet is better than that of the Hurricane, and the aircraft easily out-dives the Hurricane. "
"Comparative Speed in Level Flight - [The fighters were flown at the rated heights for the two-speed supercharger on the Brewster's Cyclone engine.] At 6,000 feet the Brewster was approximately 15 m.p.h. faster than the Hurricane; while at 14,700 feet the speeds were practically identical. "
"Maneuverability - In the air the Brewster Fighter is very maneuverable, its aileron and elevator controls being positive and lighter than the Hurricane or Spitfire at all speeds. The rudder is definitively heavy, but only a little movement is required for full control. It can easily turn inside the Hurricane."
Wow.
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Originally posted by Steven
Wow. Very informative thread. I was always under the impression the Buffalo was one of the major dogs of the war, though I always had great respect for the Hurricane. A few quotes really have me interested in learning more about the Buffalo...
Just from this thread (and others on this board), and the limited things I know about the Buffalo from genearl Pac war reading, it seems to me that the reputation that we Americans have for the Brewster is based on several factors that do not count when the Finns are looking at it. The planes has some differences. The Finnish Buffalo performed somewhat better than the US one (am I wrong here?), but more importantly, the USN/USMC Buffalos were fighting well trained exerienced Japanese Pilots, while being poorly trained with inferiour tactics themselves. Give em Spits, and I bet they still do poorly. Anyhow, that's the impression I have.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Just from this thread (and others on this board), and the limited things I know about the Buffalo from genearl Pac war reading, it seems to me that the reputation that we Americans have for the Brewster is based on several factors that do not count when the Finns are looking at it. The planes has some differences. The Finnish Buffalo performed somewhat better than the US one (am I wrong here?), but more importantly, the USN/USMC Buffalos were fighting well trained exerienced Japanese Pilots, while being poorly trained with inferiour tactics themselves. Give em Spits, and I bet they still do poorly. Anyhow, that's the impression I have.
I guess that the rest would have to with the opposition flying Zeros, particularly the early ones, which probably can outturn the Buffalo and so leave it with very few advantages or none at all.
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I bet an I153 or a Gloster Gladiator can defeat a Brewskier Buffalo Winger easily.And they are BIPLANES!!!
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Originally posted by udet
I bet an I153 or a Gloster Gladiator can defeat a Brewskier Buffalo Winger easily. And they are BIPLANES!!!
If by "Brewskier Buffalo Winger" you mean the Brewster model 239 flown by the Finnish Air Force, I'll take that bet. How about a 100 billion US dollars?
The BW's shot "Chaikas" down in droves. The Brewster had better performance than the I153 or Gladiator, except in turning.
Camo
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Originally posted by Matson
But it is BW-354 :D
Thanks Matson! It's hard to see whether the number is a 5 or 6. So it is a different plane. :)
Camo
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Hmm....I must be going blind or insane...probably both. :D
Yep...it's BW-354. I still don't understand why I didn't see it the first time you pointed it out Matson. :o
Btw Camo, after Juutilainen stopped flying BW-364 (february 1943). It became a mount of lnt. M. Salovaara. 18.10.1943 it was sent for an overhaul. 18.12.1943 it was given to 3./LeLv 24. 8.4.1944 it was given to 1./HLeLv 26 and was there lnt. E Teromaa's mount. 29.7.1944 it was shot down in the region of Toljajärvi-Loimola. Co of LeLv 26 Lauri Larjo bailed out but died to his wounds later that day.
(SIH 1)
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Make it RAF, or Dutch!
-tron-
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LOL, tronski...
Is that a flame bait? :)
RAF and Dutch Bresters were the later Buffalo versions which performed much worse. Nothing shiny or glorious in them ;)... well maybe a bit, but not as much :)
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Originally posted by BlauK
LOL, tronski...
Is that a flame bait? :)
RAF and Dutch Bresters were the later Buffalo versions which performed much worse. Nothing shiny or glorious in them ;)... well maybe a bit, but not as much :)
That obvious was it? :D
I've always liked the nice orange triangles on the dutch planes, however thought maybe cause Pacific war is on the way, might make a nice addition :)
I'd just like to see a RAAF/RNZAF P-40, or Beaufighter, so good luck to yas if you manage to get your Finnish Brewster :D
Tronski
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Originally posted by -tronski-
I'd just like to see a RAAF/RNZAF P-40
Have you missed this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52190)? :)
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Brewster is ugly and the Fokker G1 is a much better addition
:)
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Thank u tronski :)
those orange triangles looks much better than that err cross
:)
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G1?! :D Now THIS is a FOKKER:
(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fokkerd.gif)
SERVICE
STATS,
1939-40
130 kills
by 47 pilots,
1941-44
61 kills
by 40 pilots
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/sarvan/sarvan.htm
julle
(http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/kuvat/Uberfinns-Logo.gif)
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Originally posted by BlauK
Have you missed this (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52190)? :)
Right plane, wrong colour :)
Just can't please everyone i guess....
Tronski
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Give the crazy Finns the Brewster I bet they can make it sing even in the MA.
I'm all for it :D :cool:
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Originally posted by udet
I bet an I153 or a Gloster Gladiator can defeat a Brewskier Buffalo Winger easily.And they are BIPLANES!!!
Agreed! We need biplanes and japanese planes most but I'll pitch in a vote for "Brewster" :)
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Ryysteri numeroa 354.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/koponen.lauri/BW354.gif)
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I agree 5000%. I was just reading about it last night and it looks like a pretty sweet plane. From my F6F I will definately like the F4F and I am sure I will like the F2A Brewster even though I can run faster than it :). It sounds like a pretty sweet plane!
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(http://www.plauder-smilies.de/bounce/bluegrab.gif)
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The USN version of the brewsters were far worse performers because they added so much armour on it that the weight destroyed the performance.
It's also to be noted that the finnish brewsters had DC-3 engines which to my knowledge lacked the 2-stage superchargers.
USN stripped the brewsters of all armament and engines to the surprise of the finnish purchaser.
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Ahh I see MrRipley...maybe its not such a good thing after all hehe.
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On the contrary, the stripped brewsters made very leathal fighters with the new and lighter equipment.
They would suite main enviroment perfectly since most fights happen below 15k. Basically brewster would be a great turner (almost like a6m) but with a medium dive ability and little tendency for compression. That and 4x.50 guns and relatively good durability makes a nice toy to harass late war planes. It would be slower but with proper tactics and E management it would be a serious danger to faster planes. When BW pilots were in distress they mostly made a vertical dive to the treetops. Because BW had great dive handling the enemy I-16, La-5 or yaks couldn't follow or augered trying.
The late war 109's made brewsters pretty much obsolete on high altitude interceptions but they continued in low alt missions throughout the war. Did you know btw that the finnish g-2's and g-6's were stripped of WEP equipment? That made them lighter and better turners. Planes with pods were sometimes also stripped of the nose cannon (G6) because the added weight made the plane too nose heavy.
In that sense the G-2 we have with finnish markings is modeled wrong. It should be 110kg lighter but lack wep.
Late war brewsters had a slightly improved armour (pilot seat was plated from the back.)
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MrRipley,
There was no "WEP equipment" in the finnish 109s to begin with. WEP means running engine with much higher boost pressure. It didn't require any extra equipment.
This possibility to stress engine to maximum boost pressure was made unavailable at least in the G-2s.
I think you are confusing normal WEP with MW-50 water-methanol injection. Its tank was located behind the pilot and had weight around 100kg when full. No G-2 had it though.
BTW, this removal of the nose cannon sounds interesting...never heard about it being done during war time. From where did you read about it?
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I want the Brewster,heck I even want the Buffalo. We need early war planes.
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Wmaker yes I meant the MW-50.
I can't recall anymore where exactly I read about the nose gun (it was over 10 years ago), but I have a clear memory of reading about the test flight and how the pilot (one of the times aces) gave an order to remove the gun or maybe mg's due to excess nose heaviness. I made the assumption that other 109's in that squad at least would get a similar treatment.
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100, woohoo
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MrRip, the pilot gave the order to remove the 20mm gunpods from the wings because they made the plane nose-heavy.
-Charge+
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Ah might be so. I read it when I was 10-12 years old :) so its 18-20 years ago actually.
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Punted for your pleasure! :D
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(http://scores.warbirdsiii.com/banners/323333274.jpg)
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Julle not only that shows extremely bad taste, I think that your little personal campaign won't be accepted by IEN.
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Nice banner IMO :)
MrR, do you mean that iEN's long grasp will reach for Julle all the way to this board for showing the historically correct FAF emblem?? LOL
So, how is the Brewster coming along, HTC??? :D :D
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BK, MrRiplEy is referring to my SHAMELESS punting on this thread in order to get U guys the "Butt-Walther" :D
He KNOWS that iEN has the FAF emblem in banner use already:
(http://emc.ienevents.com/29/poster.jpg)
;) julle
P.S. Your Urban Blitz -02 beer pint is ready in "2 weeks". I will bring it to MM-02
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No I'm just saying it's bad form and lame to advertise a competitors product on this board. Fortunately the product is generally speaking so bad that I really doubt anyone will migrate from here to there. I did the exact opposite.
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:confused: U lost me somewhere?!
I´m SUPPORTING AH-players to get the BREWSTER. NOT advertising WB. IF my pictures or banners relate to WB it´s irrelevant. I DID have an AH account for awhile, but IMO the WB WAR ROOM exeeds MY expectations of a WWII "SIM". I know people who have 2 even 3 acounts to different games. Are they allowed to post on all the boards they play or none?! :rolleyes:
julle
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Oh let me think, posting an ad banner of a competition is not advertising now? Hmm..
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Herää jo Ripley äläkä haasta riitaa. Noi bannerit on ihan asiallista tukea suomipointeille täälläkin. Osoittavat kuinka muualla on/on ollut jotakin Suomiaiheista ja että täälläkin voisi moista lisätä.
Noissa bannereissa ei missään lue kilpailevan firman nimeä eikä niiden tuotteen nimeä. Huonoa tsägää vaan että satut itse tietämään että ne moisiin liittyvät. Onko sulla kovastikin jotakin sitä toista simua vastaan?
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Eikai toi empaattis-rajoitteinen ole suomalainen? Voehan vide, kaikkea sitä oppii, kun on kotoa pois...
Juu, minä en TODELLAKAAN yritä värvätä ketään WB:n puolelle. Bannerit ja kuvat on jotenkin liittyneet omaan laivueeseeni tai SUOMEEN. Tarkoitus on TUKEA Brewsterin saamista ACES HIGH peliin! Eikä asialla ole MITÄÄN tekemistä WB:n kanssa, PISTE!
julle
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No niin. :D
Ei mulla muuta, kuin... BRING BREWSTER TO ACES HIGH!!!
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joo brewster meille :)
in english: Give us the brewster!
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Keksi Julle muita tapoja BW:n tukemiseen kuin kopioimalla kilpailijan mainoskuvia tänne.. Se on erittäin helppo ymmärtää väärin, enkä minä ainakaan olisi tuollaista tehnyt ellen nimenomaan olisi halunnut piilomainostaa kilpailijaa.
Kuvistasi saa sellaisen käsityksen kuin kilpailevassa tuotteessa olisi jo kyseinen konetyyppi scenarioineen.
Jos tarkoituksenasi ei ollut mainostaa, hyvä niin.
BlauK: Sinänsä minulla ei ole mitään WB:tä vastaan, pelasin sitä itsekin vuosikaupalla. Mielestäni ei kuitenkaan osoita hyvää makua mainostaa kilpailijaa toisen palstalla joten kerroin asiasta oman mielipiteeni.
Ja lopuksi, Julle, ennenkuin kutsut minua idiootiksi, valitse hieman harkitsevammin nuo kuvasi jatkossa.
Bring brewster to Aces High!
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Kilpailijaa?!
En tiennytkään, että sinä OMISTAT AH:n? Eiköhän täällä ole PALKATUT henkilöt päättämässä kuvista ja bannerista. Postittamani materiaali on PELAAJIEN tekemää, eikä sinällään liity kys. peliin, ainakaan mainosmielessä.
Minä en ainakaan kilpaile kenenkään kanssa mistään. Pelaan useita eri pelejä ja olen pelannut AH:ta. Tällä hetkellä AH ei ole minun vaihtoehtoni, mutta jos joskus saatte IKONITTOMAN areenan, lupaan kovasti kokella UUDESTAAN AH:ta.
Et ehkä tiennyt, että on olemassa Virtuaalilentäjät r.y. johon kuuluu, yli peli rajojen WWII-"simu" pelaajia. Järjestämme YHTEISIÄ kokooontumisia, joihin voi ottaa osaa riippumatta mitä peliä pelaa. Olenkin tähän asti pitänyt AH/il-2/WWIIOL/WB-pelaajia "veljinä". Näyttää siltä, että uusi sukupolvi on hämärtänyt arviointikykynsä jenkki-flameissa. Heillä kun on tapana lyödä eri porukoissa pelaavia henkilöitä virtuaali-kepillä.
Oli miten oli: BW into AH! :D
julle, http://www.endera.se/disco/ake.mpeg <= EI WB-aiheinen linkki! ;)
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Huoh.
Tuo MrRiplEyn asenne on juuri sitä mitä on kovasti muutaman viime vuoden aikana koetettu kitkeä. Jotkut pellet pitävät eri simulaattoreita toistensa luonnollisina vihollisina, kehittäen väkipakolla hirveää angstia yhteisöjen välille. Sen sijaan on etenkin Virtuaalilentäjät ry:n avulla haettu ja luotu porukalle yhteistä pohjaa ja hauskanpitoa, samaa sakkiahan kaikki ovat ja sama harrastus, vain hieman eri välineet.
Kyllä pisti syvästi huokaamaan kun ei edelleenkään joku tajua yhteisen edun ja hauskan hakemista, vaan lähtee rakentamaan joidenkin jenkkipellejen tapaista sotaa mitättömästä pikkuasiasta. En millään tajua miten FPO ja EMC bannereista edes pystyisi mitään väittämääsi mainosmielikuvaa kehittämään. Onhan minullakin signaturessa ollut tälläkin boardilla tsiljardi vuotta viite toisen yrityksen tuotteeseen, sekin ihan Camoflagen kiusaksi. :) Sama myös toisinpäin AGW:llä.
Ruuvia löyhemmälle niin on hauskempaa.
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Kyseessä ei ole mikään pelien välinen sota vaan puhuin hyvän tavan vastaisesta ilmoittelusta, periaatekysymys siis.
Minun mielestäni (ja minulla on oikeus mielipiteeseen virtuaalilentäjät r.y.:n virallisesta kannasta huolimatta.. :) ) ym. ilmoittelu vaikutti arveluttavalta - ja sitten Julle pistikin suoran mainostekstin tuonne toisen threadin puolelle.
En usko hetkeäkään että AH:sta lähtisi paljoa porukkaa takaisin WB:hen, kyseessä on sen verran erilaiset pelit.
Olet Grendel siinä ihan oikeassa ettei se minulta mitään ole pois eikä paljoa rasita mainosti kuka tahansa tällä palstalla. Se että kerroin mielipiteeni asiasta --> sota mikä siitä syntyi jätti vaan huonon maun suuhun.
Minulla on lentokavereita edelleen WB:n puolella ja käyn siellä toisinaan ilmaisina viikonloppuina yms. Ainoastaan omistajayhtiön toiminnasta en pidä mikä oli osasyy pelistä pois lähtöön.
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Ai niin,
ANTEEKSI, että sanoin sinua idiootiksi. Yli-kiihottuneessa tilassani vajosin tasollesi. Ei tule toistumaan. Korjasin postissani kys. kohdan. Vielä kerran: KUVANI JA BANNERINI EIVÄT OLE WB MAINOKSIA! PISTE! Jos tilanne olisi ollut toisinpäin olisimme kiittäneet ja kumartaneet AH-piloottien tuesta...
Ei todellakaan ole minun asiani rekrytoida pelaajia mihinkään. Jos johonkin laitoin tietoa MAHDOLLISUUDESTA pelata WB:tä, se on täysin eri asia. Jos AH:ssa olisi "free weekend" ja joku postaisi sen AGW:lle ei todellakaan kukaan SUOMALAINEN siitä hernettä nenään vetäisi. Jenkit ja muut ulkomaan-pellet on sitten IHAN eri asia. Tosin AH boardin pellet ovat vielä VIHAMIELISEMPIÄ, kuin AGW:n. Itsekin arvostelit tuolla jotain AGW postia kyseenlaisesti: "There were several very funny comments like WB fliers claiming you can't dodge bounces with ACM in AH, AH feels mushy compared to WB (!??) etc. stupidities." Entäs jos se jonkun mielestä on noin? AH pelaajat haukkuvat WB:tä avoimesti omalla boardillaan esim. iWC:si. Minä ainakin kommentoin postiin, että onpas hauska vertaus. Ymmärrän kyllä, että WB realistisuudessaan on "tylsää" nyky-instant-action-sen-pitää-olla-helppoa pelaajalle. Ja siksi pelaajia on vähemmän kuin muilla mahdollisilla peleillä. WB ainakin on puheen aiheena AH boardilla 100x useammin kuin AH AGW:llä. Teitysti, kun on enemmän pelaajia, joukkoon mahtuu enemmän i*******a.
Jos huomasit, sinä olet ainoa joka näkee vaivaa WB:stä. En tiedä, miksi se on sinulle joku punainen vaate? Mutta koita vaan elää sen tiedon kanssa, että maailmassa on muitakin pelejä kuin AH. Tuskallista? Varmaan, mutta sille ei voi mitään, sorry...
julle, taas
(http://pics.krawall.de/1/khwthumb_itoilett.jpg)
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Julle kuten itsekin tiedät kyseiset väitteet olivat täysin vääriä ja johtuivat siitä että AH:n lentomallinnus vaatii täysin erilaisen ajoituksen liikkeelle toimiakseen. AH:ssa ei koneita saa kiemurreltua miten sattuu vaan liikkeen inertian todella tuntee ---> Koneet eivät käänny toisen perään ylilujassa vauhdissa.
Pelasin WB:tä vuosikaupalla, mutta vasta AH:ssa opin hyödyntämään toisen pelaajan suurempaa energiaa omaksi hyväkseni väistöliikkeissä. Tämän oppimiseen meni huomattavasti pitempi aika kuin kaksi viikkoa. Toisaalta nykyisin kun käyn WBIII puolella, peli tuntuu älyttömän helpolta. Poistuin viimeksi 20:1 k/d ratiolla viikonlopun jälkeen.
WBIII puoli oli vaan niin tajuttoman vähäväkinen että päädyin lopulta lentämään 2.7 puolella.
Yli-kiihottuneessa tilassani vajosin tasollesi.
Sorry Julle, mutta sinä olet ollut tässä keskustelussa kyllä ihan omalla tasollasi. :)
Lopuksi vielä toteaisin että iso osa AH:n pelaajista on siirtynyt WB:stä AH:n ja tuskin kukaan toisinpäin.
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Ohimoita pakottaa...
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"Asia on vakava !!!" :D
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Harppa: Ei kannata lueskella näitä palstoja jos niistä saa tuollaisia paineita.. Voi revetä suoni päästä.
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Mitäs jos vaihtaisitte e-mail osoitteita ?
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Ei meidän suhteemme nyt NIIN vakavalle pohjalle ole vielä edennyt Staga.
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Tämä pieni sivusia on nyt varmaankin käsitelty. Takaisin pääaiheeseen: BREWSTER TO AH ;)
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Blauk puhuu asiaa!
BREWSTER TO AH
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Älkää kuunnelko BlauKia, jatketaan tappelua perkele!
Breasts to AH!
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LOL.. yes, MrRipley certainly needs a Brester :) :D
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Voe Voe...
Noooh !!
kättä päälle nyt vaan pojut, ja tilataan se Brewski yhteistuumin :cool:
:p
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Ostettiinhan BW-372:kin viimeinkin museolle, ehkäpä se päätyy AH:lle lopulta.
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Jaa, viimeinkin. Liekö koneesta mitään jäljellä kun se on eka pilkottu vaarasta kohdasta ja roudattu Irlantiin ja sieltä USAan ja takas..puhumattakaan kaikista osista...
-Charge+
:mad:
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Mihinkäs museoon se on nyt päätynyt? Linkkejä?
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Pidetään keskustelu hengissä...
Some more help for HTC ;) :)
(http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/kuvat/BW.gif)
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Joo, pidetään juttu hengissä...
Brewster on/oli myynnissä täällä BW-372 now on sale! (http://www.historic-flying.com/aircraft/sale/buffalo.htm) mutta sivu ei toimi tai on poistettu käytöstä. Kukapas tota konetta enää haluaa ostaa ku se on pistetty laikalla osiksi (kyllä ryssät osaa) helpompaa/halvempaa olis rakentaa replica ryysteristä. Tai naarata toinen eheä brewsteri suomen lahdesta... ;)
Niin ja löytyisiköhän tarkempia piirroksia "räjäytys" kuvineen ja mittoineen brewsteristä ???
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XF2A-1 blueprints (http://www.brewsterbuffalos.org/buff1/buffplans.htm)
mutta tuostahan se vielä muuttui, esim moottoripeitteet ja kuomu.
Tuossa Tampereen keskustassahan oli kanssa yksi kappale Brewsteria lasten leikkipaikkana :rolleyes: muutama vuosikymmen sitten, Särkänniemen huvipuistoa kun alkoivat rakentamaan, kärräsivät sen sinne "täytteeksi", hoh hoijakkaa
No, se kuulemma oli jo kylläkin huonossa kunnossa, kaikki irti lähtevä oli kadonnut.
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Aina kun mä nään BW:n mua alkaa kummasti hymyilyttää (ppffffffffffttt)
Tulisi jo v1.10 mukana :D
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Ei taida ryysteri tulla ennen MM-02? CT:n poijjaat hostaa meille Itärintaman siksi aikaa ja saanemme taas CON-tunnareita. Vahissä on suomi koneet vaan. 109G-2 ja 6 sekä JU88. Kun naapurille on HURRI, SPIT, LaGG, YAK, Poni ja vaikka mitä. NOH, laatu lukumäärää vastassa, kuten ennenkin...
julle, Überfinns Perkele!
Pirulaiset eivät vaan ole valmiit luopumaan ikoneista ja tutkasta.
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Ahem...
just thought that I should mention about a BREWSTER in the front cover of a new FAF history book.. LeR4 (http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/sih19.html) (Flight Regiment 4) .. covering a Blendheim :)
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SWEET MAMA! :D
julle, (http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/kuvat/Uberfinns-Logo.gif)
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It's fine we have Bf 109G2 with Finnish sights in AH and after that everything what I hope is: Give me my Butt-Walther, please! :D
When I have my own Butt-Walther with BLUE FINNISH SVASTIKA on his wings I never-ever ask anything more from HTC!
Except Moerkoe-Morane and Fiat G50... later! :rolleyes:
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And my new Finnish-Russian Continuation War Terrain needs Buffalo! It is nothing without Butt-Walther!;)
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http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/faf.html
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bring in the Brewster, but don't let the Finns fly it. Too frightening. It would turn the game into a Golly-geened grave digging simulator (i'm assuming someone has to bury you after you auger in)
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Punt si bum!
:D
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if the Finns get the Brewster (and why not?) can we then get rid of the finnish markings on the 109F and maybe use gallands markings?
Its the only thing that jars me about flying that ship.
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Originally posted by faminz
if the Finns get the Brewster (and why not?) can we then get rid of the finnish markings on the 109F and maybe use gallands markings?
Its the only thing that jars me about flying that ship.
Errr, the 109F in AH doesnt carry Finnish markings. The 109 G-2 has Finnish markings in AH. "MT-222" was the personal mount of Lentomestari (Warrant Officer) Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen, the highest ranking non-german pilot with 94 confirmed aerial victories.
Why should the existing G-2 markings be changed? Why do they "jar" you?
I hope that we'd get a plane in Galland's markings as well. But I don't think the G-2 would be right plane for those. At the time the G-2 was introduced, Galland was already "General der Jagdflieger", flying a desk. With frequent "visits" to the frontline units, though. ;)
Camo
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oops, you ever notice how close the F and the G are on the keyboard? My mistake...
However, all kidding aside and recogising Im on a hiding to nothing even saying this given you are obviously of Finnish nationality, I still feel uncomfortable in the 109G with those markings. Yes, I realise they were flown a lot by Finns, its just, well, its a German plane and I would simply like to see it in a german ace's colours. Like maybe Steinhofs for example (yr point re Galland is well taken).
Im not anti-finnish its just the wrong finish (excuse the pun... lol)
Id still like it changed one day but i guess thats just wishful thinking.
btw I created an awful lot of the skins in AW SAC addon so have looked at lots and lots of profiles of the 109 et al.
This one appeals far more than the current one.
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anyway, the point is: BREWSTER TO AH
pls
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HMMMMMMMMMM.......
No BW in 1.10?! :confused:
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What BEAUTY! :D
(http://www.assonetart.com/BuffaloAce.jpg)
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Aloin justiinsa askartelemaan Brewsterin 3D mallia ja ohessa kuva rungosta... :)
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1.11 sitten:)
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Nice fantasy terrain in that pic, Julle:)
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ootetaan, ootetaan...
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Robert A. Winston: Aces Wild
(http://www.danford.net/winston.jpg)
OMG! What a book!
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Robert A. Winston had just retired after serving on three US Navy carriers and as an air combat instructor at NAS Pensacola, FL. As an idle 32 year old bachelor in Indiana he noticed a small piece of news in the local newspaper: "US Navy has released Brewster fighters to be sold to Finland". Winston contacted his old squadron mate Wood Burke, who was now the chief test pilot of the Brewster Aeronautical Corporation. After a while he got a cable back from Burke: "The Finnish Brewsters will be sent via Sweden. Are you available immediately?"
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Ok let's make a deal ask for the fokker brewster
:D
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The representative of the Finnish Government, Mr. Kurt Berger met the Brewster reps at Trollhättan on the 20th of February and told that Sweden had let the Finns use the Saab hangars to assemble the Brewsters. Also Swedish mechanics were helping in the assembly. 11 Norwegian volunteers arrived at Trollhättan to speed up the pruduction. Sweden's largest aircraft factory was at Trollhättan doing the license manufacture of German Junkers bombers and US Hamilton Standard propellers. When the Americans were a bit puzzled by the situation Mr. Berger told them: "No need to worry, the Swedish pilots in German aircraft with US propellers will make the Soviets think twice before attacking this Finnish base in Sweden with their American (lend-lease) bombers." :D
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(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/bw374.jpg)
How can you live without this? :D
julle
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I caaaaant!
Brewster to AH!!!
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(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/bw374.jpg)
How can you live without this? :D
julle
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My New Eastern Front map "Finland - Russia" is coming out soon. Brady has checked it and said it is ready to Combat Theater after I have made some little adjustment to it: Vehicle and boat entrypoints etc.
I think that Continuation war map is ready after 1 - 2 months. It depends on the release of New Terrain Editor version: We are making skins with Wmaker to every plane in that map! For ex. Hurricane II, P40 and Boston III gets Russia colors and Hurricane I, Bf 109 G6 and Ju 88 A-4 Finnish colors.
Because HTC don't release the Brewster, we are using FM2 simulating it and make a Brewster-like skin to it.
They are not identical planes and that's why I hope HTC takes into consideration our hope:
Finland - Russian map in Combat Theater is not realistic without BREWSTER!
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Originally posted by julle
(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/bw374.jpg)
How can you live without this? :D
julle
I cant! We really need this beauty in AH. SUPERFLY please do it....
:D
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S!
Brewster to AH!
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Goooo brewster!
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GOSH! IL2 get Brewster!
When we get it?!
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YES!!
please
give us the brewster!!!!
we wont stop this until we have the brewster!!
so give us the brewster! please :/
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Did you know that the last 8 Brewsters had a difficult trip to Finland???
By the time they were ready and test flown, the Swedish government somehow realized that maybe they were not being very neutral by helping Finns to get war planes. (Not my thought.. quote from a book) They did not give the Brewsters a permission to fly to Finland and denied them to be fuelled.
The next day when the airbase personel went for lunch, the Finnish pilots ordered a Shell fuel truck to the airbase, fueled the planes, asked the guy to send the bill to Finnish Embassy in Stockholm... and took off heading toeards Stockholm and then to Finland :)
When they were crossing the Swedish coast, the A-A began shooting at them.. not very accurately though. (Probably they just had to show off and did not really even want to try any hits).
So it might have happend that Finns had only got 36 Brewsters.....
BUT, please give us the ONE Brewster we wish for... the one in AH!!!!! :)
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I red the same book by Robert A. Winston. And I remember that the Swedes wanted the last Brewters for themselves. It was aticipated that Sweden was next on Stalin´s list. After Finland would be finished with. Fortunately for the free world the Russians never could beat the Finns. Actually the episode of the last Brewsters broke out when Finland stated that they would not return those Bofors AA guns defending Helsinki which were loaned from Sweden. The Swedes counted that the AA guns were of more value...
I can of course remember uncorrectly. :D
julle
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Julle,
U is probably RIGHT ;) .... because it happened after the Winter War had already ended. Sounds quite reasonable that the Swedes would want their loaned A-A guns back :)
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Fighter Tactics Academy Article - Brewsters To Finland (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/BWtoFAF1.htm)
On page 5 of that article it is comfirmed that that was the case julle.
Elk
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U mean this: "In the morning of the 17th Winston test-flew six more aircraft. Bremer ordered all aircraft to be armed and fully fueled for the ferry flight to Finland. Count Sparré wanted to keep the aircraft for the defence of the Saab Aircraft Factory. Bremer called the Finnish Embassy at Stockholm and they replied that Finland wouldn't return the Bofors AAA guns that Sweden had loaned to Finland, if the Brewsters were not allowed to take off from Trollhättan. Sparré made a selection - and let the Brewsters go. The Finns called the local Shell station and refueled the aircraft during lunch hour."? :D
julle
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/bw-NOKA.jpg)
BW-355 "NOKA" donated by the Finnish NOKIA Company http://www.nokia.com
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i'm converted,
I think those persistent Finns have made this plane come alive for those of us who read these boards.
It's got a ton of character and plenty of remarkable stories attached to it and that's mostly why we fly the planes we fly, whether it be the spitfire, zero or me109. It's also got a place in scenarios, not just Finland, but early war PTO as well.
So, much as i'd like to see an early model P38, first i've got to say ADD THE BREWSTER!
(maybe Nokia would sponsor it - send a case of Koskenkorva to Hitech?)
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Originally posted by julle
(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/bw374.jpg)
How can you live without this? :D
julle
yes :D
but I'm not Suomi :p
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Wow... our campaign is starting to work. Welcome to "True Believers" ;)
There is also a rumour of a Finnish-Russian CT map. Brewster IS needed there :)
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I... had... a... dream.... last... night...
I... see... the... light.....
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/bw-011.jpg)
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/bw-inst.jpg)
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(maybe Nokia would sponsor it - send a case of Koskenkorva to Hitech?)
ROFL! What a Great Idea crowbaby!:D
But I think after they had drink all the Koskenkorva Vodka in HTC they cannot do anything in one month... :D
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IL2 Forgotten Bottles (Yeah, its friday) will have Brewster!
(http://www.il2center.com/Axis/Finland/01/01.jpg)
When we get our own flying beerbarrell?!
Nice shots from IL2center (http://www.il2center.com/Axis/Finland/01/Index.html).
(Oops! Wrong url!)
Please HTC!
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Maybe soon....
(http://www.kraklund.com/vvl/files/brewster1.jpg)
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LOL :D :D
Great pic Vuokko :) and typical La-7:s ... running away again ;)
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I guess it's about time I was added to the list of people who would like the Brewster added.
I'm not Finnish, but hearing those guys go on and on about it, it eventually start to sink in.
__________________
Ltn. Snefens
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
My AH homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/index2.htm)
(http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/209.gif)
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(http://www.brewsterbuffalos.org/buff1/bufmorph.gif)
Paint it anyway you like (altho I think the Finns should get it).
I just WANT IT! Really I DO! :D
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Ahem....
We have recently tried to use FM2 as a Brewstwer... but it really is kind of über. Let our victims off the hook.. give them a break by giving us the BREWSTER B-239 ;)
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yes give it to us!!!!
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Bump :D :D
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FM2 with Brewster skin :D
(http://www.savanne.org/ah/Bw2.jpg)
Great work guys! S!
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The FM2 is a sad substitute for the fat boy.
(http://www.danford.net/buff2f1.jpg)
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F4F with 4 * .50cal is closer?
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(http://www.il2center.com/Axis/Finland/01/13.jpg)
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.
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I think I have to buy IL2 soon...:D
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Hehehehe,
Kokardit ja itärintamatunnukset ;)
gripen
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It seems we have quite a few 3D-modellers here - what software u use? I'll be using 3DStudiomax probably after I'm done with the 1200 page manual. Can u give me hints, share example models...? Ofcourse I'm most interested of the Brewster model :)
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I think the finns should get this cute lil demon. And while there at it ad that Fokker, err I cant remember the one with the fixed undercarage. And the PZL 11 for the poles allso.
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After reading about the great success the Finns had with the early model Buffalos, it has my vote:
Bring in the F2A-1 (F2A-2?) for the New Finn Map!!
Bring in the F2A-3 for the PTO!
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(Chants) BUFFALO BUFFALO!!!!!!!!!!
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I'd like to see the Brewster Buffalo in AH as well.
When it is add, it must be in Finnish colors. All other users failed to do anything with it, the Finns were the only people to win battle honors with it.
(I'm a Finnish-American, FWIW)
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"I'm a Finnish-American, FWIW"
I thought you were a redneck Karnak.. :D
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Brewster Please...
(http://www.brewsterbuffalos.org/buff1/bbphotos/fesqd.jpg)
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Amazing! A post from NOD2000 which was actually readable.
// fats
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piss off english teacher:p
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tahtoo kurmoottaa ryssää pruusterilla :cool:
Jasz
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Le Punt!
(http://www.brewsterbuffalos.org/buff1/bbphotos/dut339.jpg)
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BNM: Just so you know punting is in very bad taste.
HiTech
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oKIE dOOKIE lORD ht ...... SHEESH.
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BNM:
What did I do to deserve that ? Unless I'm miss reading my post it was very straight forward, and fairly polite.
HiTech
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is that a dutch brewster? thats not the one we would want...not particularly effective, which leads me to a question i've been wondering about for a while: what did the finns do differently that made their brewsters a success? everyone else who flew them got slaughtered...was it the enemy they were up against (Buffalo has speed advantage against I-16, but not against Zero, Oscar, 109 and only just so against Nate) or did the finn pilots do something different or wre the machines altered to make them more effective?
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In my knowledge Brewsters in finland were a little lighter than originals. That gave them better speed and better manouvering capabilities. All navy equipments were removed or something.
Pilots were also better trained than opponents. (at least early war)
I'm sure 1wmaker1 can explain better what was different. He is quite expert on this. :)
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That picture was indeed a Dutch 339D model. The one I'd like to see in AH is the B-239 which were the F2A-1s we sent to Finland originally. This is the plane Hans Wind got most of his kills in.
They actually found one not too long ago in a lake HERE (http://www.historicair.com/aircraft/sale/buffalo.htm). It's for sale!
This is a painting of Hans' Buffalo. He is credited with 26 1/2 kills in this plane alone:
(http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/b239.jpg)
Here's some info on the Brewster B-239 "Buffalo":
The F2A-1s diverted to Finland were given the company designation B-239. The naval equipment (tail hook, life raft, catapult harness) was removed, and the telescopic sight was replaced by a simple bead and sight arrangement. Armament consisted of one 0.30-in and one 0.50-in machine gun in the cowling, plus two 0.50-in machine guns in the wings. The engine was replaced by an export-approved 950 hp Wright R-1820-G5 radial. Maximum speed was 297 mph at 15,580 feet and service ceiling was 32,500 feet. Empty weight was 3900 pounds, and maximum weight was 5820 pounds.
The B-239s were transferred to Finland via Trollhattan, Sweden, where they were assembled by Norwegian Air Force mechanics. They were then ferried to Finland by both American and Finnish pilots. Only six examples had reached Finland by the time that the Russo-Finnish "Winter War" ended on March 3, 1940. During the uneasy peace that followed, Finnish personnel made a number of modifications to their Brewsters, including the installation of an armored headrest and seat back, plus a reflector gunsight in place of the original bead and ring.
A total of 44 B-239s reached Finland, and they were assigned the Finnish serial numbers BW-351 through BW-394. The B-239s were assigned to Lentolaivue 24 (LeLv 24), 32 being used on active duty and the rest held in reserve.
Finland went to war against Russia again on June 25, 1941, this time allied with Germany. During the first few months, the Brewsters were able to maintain air superiority over the northern front. The Finns found the Brewster to be very maneuverable at low level. B-239s encountered LaGG-3s, Yak-1s and Yak-7s, as well as Lend-Lease Hurricanes, P-40s and P-39s. The highest-scoring B-239 ace was Hans Wind, who got 39 of his 75 kills flying the B-239. The leading Finnish ace, Eino Juutilainen, scored 34 of his 94 kills while attached to LeLv 24 flying Brewsters.
As the war with Russia wore on, maintenance of the Finnish B-239s became an increasingly serious problem, since Finland was now allied with Germany and no longer had access to American spare parts. In an attempt to overcome these problems, at least six B-239s were fitted with captured Russian M-63 radials (these were license-built versions of the Wright Cyclone). The Finnish State Aircraft Factory also began the development of a homebuilt version of the B-239, this with a captured M-63 engine and plywood wings. This aircraft was known locally as the Humu. However, only one prototype was built.
Experiments were made with ski landing gear for operations from snow-covered fields. However, the landing gear could not be retracted when the skis were fitted, and this severely degraded performance. Consequently, skis were rarely used operationally.
In 1944, LeLv 24 traded in its surviving B-239s for Messerschmitt Bf 109G-2s. These B-239s were transferred to HLeLv 26. Kills continued to be scored, but by this time the Soviets had deployed large numbers of high-performance fighters and losses of B-239s began to mount. HLeLv 26 continued to operate its B-239s until the end, when an armistice was signed with the Soviets on September 4, 1944. Finland then switched sides and began to drive German forces out of Finnish territory. The Brewsters were flown against retreating German forces in Lapland, scoring several kills against Ju-87 Stukas.
After five years of combat and attrition, only eight Brewsters remained in the Finnish inventory. These surviving Finnish Brewsters were used in the training role until late 1948. During its combat career, the B-239 is credited with 496 kills, against 19 losses, for a victory ratio of 26 to 1. Finnish air force records credit 41 kills to a single B-239 before it was shot down. Is there any other fighter aircraft in history which has a record as good as this? After the war, the Humu prototype was restored and is on display in a museum in Finland. It is believed to be the sole surviving Buffalo in the world today.
Just hope noone considers this a punt.... :confused:
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many thanx...one ETO plane i can think of with a similarly impressive operational record - the P-61 - no combat losses in the ETO (of course this was done with allied air superiority, but He219 & Arado Blitz night fighters had to be a tough birds to fight & daytime air superiority vanishes with the sunset. PTO record of the P-61 is less clear)...didn't know the Brewster was effective so late in the war
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BNM correction in order i believe.
The leading Finnish ace was Air Master Sergeant Ilmari "ILLU" Juutilainen 94 kills awarded Knight of Mannerhein Cross twice.
Second was Captain Hans "Hasse" Wind 75 kills awarded KMC twice.
And third was Major Eino "Eikka" Luukkanen 56 kills awarded KMC once.
My source also indicates that during the early part of the war (Continuation war) the Brewsters achieved a 32:1 success ratio whilst being outmunbered 2:1 by the soviets.
From 1943 on the Brewsters began suffering from aircraft design advances against them and they replaced them with ME109's although at least one squad stayed with the Brewster throughout the war, i would think it was this squad that lowered the overall kills ratio by wars end as the Brewster was suffering against the newer soviet fighters.
Success ratio with the ME109's was 25:1 by wars end.
At start of war they achieved a 16:1 air to air kill ratio using Fokker D.XXI (FR) 840 HP 1936 design Top speed 185 Knots at low level and 225 Knots at altitude Ceiling 33,000ft Guns 4 x Browning 7.7 mm pea shooters :)
Perhaps their secrets was a heavy emphasis on aerial gunnery practice long before war was declared, and practice of loose, broad section and finger four tactics as early as 1935.
Ilmari juutilainen never took any damage from an enemy fighter, he suffered AAA damage and some slight damage from bombers defensive guns only.
HT please give em the Brewster as and when it suits you of course, not for me but so I can watch those LLV 34 chaps struggle to get kills ;)
Hi BlauK and Snefens :)
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...so it was the addition of ninja pilot to the Brewsters that made them perform so well...
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BNM: Hasse Wind's record-breaking Brewster was the BW-393. The BW-364 was Illu Juutilainen's plane, seen in that picture by Jerry Boucher, which you posted.
For answers to "why were the Finns so succesful with the Brewster", read the first few pages of this thread. :)
Camo
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I live 5 miles from the old Brewster plant in Warrminster, Pa.
Bow before me.........:p
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Good info there. Just a small correction:
During the early and middle part of Continuation War the Brewsters achieved kill ratio of something like 60:1.
32:1 is the air combat ratio for the whole war, 1941-1945.
Not too bad for a plane often regarded as complete dog. Highest kill ratio of any WW2 plane type, highest scoring airframe etc.
It's interesting to read how the British and Dutch pilots actually achieved about 1:1 exchange ratio against the Japanese in Far East.
The bad reputation of Brewster "Buffalo" mainly stems from the green American pilots in Midway, who got slaughtered trying to turn against the far more nimbler Zeroes. Just bad tactics, not a bad plane.
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Some information :)
The Dutch using the Brewster B-339:
On the 12th of January 1942 they first came into action. When at 10 am A Japanese air raid happened with 5 Army '97's (Nakajima) KI-27) vaandrigs (reserve officer candidate) Swarts, Scheefer and Sgt. Bruggink took off with their Buffaloes and succeeded in chasing away the Japanese. Vaandrig Swarts did hit one Japanese bomber's engine so it started smoking. In the afternoon the bombers came back. Now Capt. van Helsdingen, Lt. Deibel and Sgt. Bruggink took of. At 4000 m. they came into a fight with 9 Japanese Army 97's. Four were shot down, two by Deibel and one each by van Helsdingen and Bruggink. Deibel himself was shot down, but lightly wounded on his head he managed to save himself with his parachute. After four days hospital he was cured and send away.
On the 15th again the Dutch Buffaloes came into action, when above Singapore van Helsdingen, Swarts and Bruggink again fought with a over powerful number of Navy Zeros. Vaandrig Swarts was shot down and killed.
On the 16th Bruggink went into a battle with a formation bombers without visible results.
Twenty Buffaloes came into action on 23 January above Makassar Strait when they took of with two 50 kg bombs each. From a high altitude they dived to the Japanese ships. Eight hits were placed on four Japanese ships, one destroyer and two cargo ships. One of the Buffaloes was shot down.
On 24 January the Buffaloes shot two Japanese air scouts.
24th January the Japanese found the Samarinda II air base on this day. They air base placed on east- Borneo was attacked by several Navy-Zeros. Five Buffaloes welcomed them. Two Zeroes were shot down, the pilots killed.
21st February 12 Buffaloes went in to a fight with 24 Navy-Zeros. During this fight both sides lost two planes. The B-3122 flown by Sgt. van Dalen was lost above Tjiater.
On 1 March the five Buffaloes together with eight P-40's and seven Dutch Hurricanes took off. The Buffaloes were under the command of Lt. de Haas and got to the landing troops first. There were 44 cargo ships in front of the coast, together with hundreds of small landing crafts. The Buffaloes attacked immediately and surprised them completely. They shot until they were out of ammo. When the Japanese attacked Ngoro air base all the airplanes were damaged so badly that they had to be destroyed. Also the Buffaloes...
There were only four Dutch Buffaloes left. Capt. van Helsdingen used them in a last assault at the Japanese in the Tjiaterfortress to support the ground troops near Kembang. The pilots were van Helsdingen, Deibel, Scheffer and Bruggink. Van Helsdingen and Bruggink flew about 200 m. below the other two planes who had to cover the other two planes. Above Lembang they met a Japanese fighter who was attacked by Deibel and disappeared. Some time later they saw three Navy-Zeros. Deibel shot at two planes which turned away. Deibel himself was shot in his oil tank. He dived into a valley and succeeded to escape from the attackers. Flying very low he reached Andir. He landed in a tropical rainstorm. One of the wheels, damaged during the fight ran away from the aircraft so it crashed in a "ground loop". Scheffer landed a minute later. Van Helsdingen and Bruggink were attacked by six Navy-Zeros. Capt. van Helsdingen was shot down and killed. Bruggink managed to escape into a cloud and in a long way back to Andir air base.
This was the last action made by the KNIL against a Japanese "overkill" All four of these last pilots were rewarded with the Militaire Willemsorde (highest Dutch decoration, only given for extreme high bravery during wartime).
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
BNM correction in order i believe.
The leading Finnish ace was Air Master Sergeant Ilmari "ILLU" Juutilainen 94 kills awarded Knight of Mannerhein Cross twice.
Second was Captain Hans "Hasse" Wind 75 kills awarded KMC twice.
And third was Major Eino "Eikka" Luukkanen 56 kills awarded KMC once.
Hi Cav :)
Actually you both are correct.
The leading FAF ace was Eino Ilmari Juutilainen. His name is often written with his first forename even though he used the second forename himself. So Eino Juutilainen and Ilmari Juutilainen are the same person... "Illu" :)
Originally posted by Grendel
The bad reputation of Brewster "Buffalo" mainly stems from the green American pilots in Midway, who got slaughtered trying to turn against the far more nimbler Zeroes. Just bad tactics, not a bad plane.
Grendel,
honestly the Dutch B-339 was not as good fighter plane as the FAF B-239 was. But you still have a point there :)
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Originally posted by BlauK
Grendel,
honestly the Dutch B-339 was not as good fighter plane as the FAF B-239 was. But you still have a point there :)
And they still managed a 1:1 exchange against the Japanese in the supposedly "worst fighter of WW2".
Which, with the studies of American performance and tactics at Midway, proves that it was not the plane - but the pilots and tactics.
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Originally posted by whgates3
was it the enemy they were up against (Buffalo has speed advantage against I-16, but not against Zero
Remember that Brewsters were also against (and scoring kills of) La-5FNs, Yak-9s and P-39q s.
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!PUNT!
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Why is punting in bad taste?
I must admit, instead of starting like a million different threads on different Japanese or italian or Russian or American ect , planes I wanted I gues I could of made like one for each country and punted the holy living (*&$&^$#&^%) out of it....:)
Is that What was ment?
A Nice Dutch Brwester would be Great for the East Indies Map I want to get made for the CT.( Basicaly Indionishia today)
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just do what mitsu does w/ Emily thread: post a new pic or tidbit of info once a week. much more effective than the blatant punt
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Originally posted by M.C.202
ra said:
That guy shot down 3 of 5 Zeros before getting shot down, and he says 'if only I'd had a Buffalo'. Talk about high self-esteem.
END QUOTE
You can always tell a Naval Aviator... You just can't tell them much:D
hey, do you know anyone named Claire? cause se loves the MC.202/205 and I really wanna talk to her again...
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(http://www.sci.fi/~fta/illu-002s.jpg)
Finnish Brewster ace Ilmari Juutilainen says about BW:
"I started my Brewster flights in the beginning of April 1940, doing all the aerobatics maneuvers, stall and dive tests. I was happy with my Brewster. It was agile, it had 4,5 hours endurance, good weaponry - one 7,62 mm and three 12,7 machine guns - and an armored pilot's seat. It was so much better than the Fokker that it was in another category. If we had had Brewsters during the Winter War, the Russians would have been unable to fly over Finland. It was also a "gentleman's traveling plane", for it had a roomy cockpit and room in the fuselage, as we used to say, for a poker gang. We unofficially transported mechanics, spare parts, oil canisters etc. in our Brewsters. Once, though two pilots went a little too far - a flight sergeant was flying, and in the fuselage was a second lieutenant, his friend, his dog and a lot of baggage. Upon landing the plane went off the runway and the suitcase came out. Both pilots were punished. Humorously, the lieutenant's sentence started with:"As the commander of the crew of a single-seat fighter.."
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I would like to see Brewster 239 in AH ASAP. Would increase my online time about 10000% in AH .
pjk
no niiih...nostetaans tää asia taaaaaas sille kuuluvalle paikalle, varsinkin Blitziä ootellesa(vähän niinkuin kasalaisvelvollisuus...-))
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The U.S. combat use of the Buffalo was at Midway. Many of the pilots were new to the fighter. the fighters that tryed to defend Midway aginst the Japanese strike were split up.
First six Buffalos and three Wildcats took on a total of 107 Japanese aircraft including 36 Zeros. The out come was predictable. Then the second group of U.S. planes showed up, 12 Buffalos and one Wildcat.
U.S. losses were 13 Buffalos (out of 18 engaged) and two Wildcats.(out of 4 engaged)
The Japanese admitted to the loss of 9 aircraft to these interceptions. (two of them Zero's)
AT that time, with the limited experance of allied pilots fighting the Zero, there was not an allied plane flying that would have won aginst the same odds.
You have to remember that all allied pilots were trained to dogfight. You don't win many turn fights with a zero flown by a good pilot.
Regards,
Chris
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Keep it up guys. I'm sure Hitech's thinking, "When this thread hits 400, I'll model the Brewster".
:)
eskimo
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Do you really think he's thinking that? 229 ;)
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Shouldn't 239 posts be properly enough for Brewster B-239 ;)
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I think that hte Brewster might be in AH 2.0:)
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While it's been bumped anyway, i can't remember if anyone's posted this?
Buffalo I Manual as PDF (http://www.danford.net/buffpilotmanual.pdf)
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Originally posted by crowbaby
While it's been bumped anyway, i can't remember if anyone's posted this?
Buffalo I Manual as PDF (http://www.danford.net/buffpilotmanual.pdf)
Wow thanks! I didn't have this! :)
Camo
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By the way, here's a 3 kill BW pilot (including an La5!) flying the BW in Forgotten Battles.
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/urbanblitz03/pakarinen_fb6_killer.JPG)
Camo
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Originally posted by crowbaby
While it's been bumped anyway, i can't remember if anyone's posted this?
Buffalo I Manual as PDF (http://www.danford.net/buffpilotmanual.pdf)
:eek:
Thanks a lot! / Kiitos paljon!
:)
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I think one reason why B-239 isnt modeled is absence of its rollrate data.
I have never seen any numbers for its rollrate.
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can't tell if this site has already come up in the thread:
http://www.danford.net/buff.htm
-Blogs
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S!
Nice Brewster story with photos from another sim (http://www.sturmovik.com/Warstory/WS-7-Brewster.htm)
(http://www.sturmovik.com/Warstory/_ws_b0.jpg)
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ok this will be 239
BRING THE D* BREWSTER TO AH!!!!!!!!!!!
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Joutessani punttasin tän eloon taas, jos joku suuttu niin, vastaan olevani maksava asiakas, joka ei rasita liiikaa ah serverii..:.-)))
BW to AH and asap..
Ps
BW means 239 modell Ps
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no..its not time
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
no..its not time
True... it is overdue already ;)
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S!
Bring it on already! What are U waiting for? ;) :D
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Let's give a healty
to a Brewster pilot:
Erkki Pakarinen, HLeLv 24, living at Tampere, during interview with me:
(http://www.byterapers.com/~grendel/scan/historia/erkkipakarinen.jpg)
And a lil videoclip of mr. Pakarinen speaking:
http://www.byterapers.com/~grendel/scan/historia/Erkki_Pakarinen_HLeLv24_BW_MT_ohjaaja-16022003-1.avi
30 mb
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I guess that if I post here it would be seen by a lot of suomi ;)
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ROFL Straffo :D
What the texts says?
Thanks!
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sorry I forgot to translate ( it was obvious for me :D)
bubble says :
In 2 time 3 movement (*) I made you hear a tchakai-sky(Tchaikovsky) symphonie.
(*) a musical reference to timing
Caption says : one the the five I-152 captured by the finnish ,taking off from the swan lake. music by Jean Barbaud (the comic maker)
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ROFL Straffo! I'm a musician and composer, too: the famous Brewstersky! :D
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Once, though two pilots went a little too far - a flight sergeant was flying, and in the fuselage was a second lieutenant, his friend, his dog and a lot of baggage. Upon landing the plane went off the runway and the suitcase came out. Both pilots were punished. Humorously, the lieutenant's sentence started with:"As the commander of the crew of a single-seat fighter.."
Too funny! :D
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In 2 time 3 movement (*) I made you hear a tchakai-sky(Tchaikovsky) symphonie.
[the I-152 was nicknamed the "Tchaika" (Seagull)]
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I want Brewster too;)
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S!
From another sim...
(http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/aircraft_fb/images/b-239.jpg)
"The top-scoring Brewster pilot was Hans Wind with 39 kills. Wind scored 26 of his kills while flying a BW-393 and Eino Luukkanen scored 7 more kills with the same plane. The BW-393 is credited with 41 kills in total, making it possibly the single aircraft with the most air victories in the history of air warfare."
Nice addition for the AH plane set, eh?
Read more about Finnish Brewster from here (http://www.il2sturmovik.com/games_elts/pop-up_fb/b-239.html).
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That brewster model sucks.. It has the wrong insignia for starters.
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Argh, either make a new thread or stop replying to this extremely old one.
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No, its time for the brewster!
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This is World's BIGGEST Board, because EVERYBODY want's the BR...... Look below and under my name!:D
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Hmmm.. I suppose we wont get a Brewster in AH :( .... it looks like there will be no more updates for AH.
But lets hope we get the Brewster in AH2 !!!!!!! :D :D :D
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I would like to see ALL models of the Buffalo that saw service. The export versions AND the USN/USMC versions.
Also, I want to see the P39/P400 as well.
Some biplanes would be a nice addition. The Gladiator, the CR32/42 and how about the Japanese A5M2 Claude and the Japanese Army Air Force Ki-27 Nate?
I know, I want a lot. ;)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
That brewster model sucks.. It has the wrong insignia for starters.
Yeah, it does. But some European countries frown on the use of the Swastika.
Sad but true.
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am i the only one that doesn't care about the stupid brewster?! :D
And yeah - i would prefer the Gladiator/Beaufighter/Meteor/or any Jap planes
__________________
(http://www.geocities.com/rcafhornets/hornet.txt) (http://fly.to/418squadron)
418 'Hornet' Squadron RCAF
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Originally posted by Furball
am i the only one that doesn't care about the stupid brewster?! :D
__________________
Ah, yup. :D
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Originally posted by MrWimpy
Ah, yup. :D
Oh well, can't wait to see you all cry when we dont get it ;) I think there are many more important types (notably Jap) to add before considering brewster, brewster would be good for CT and scenarios, but i cant envisage much of a use for it in MA
__________________
(http://www.geocities.com/rcafhornets/hornet.txt) (http://fly.to/418squadron)
418 'Hornet' Squadron RCAF
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If the Finns get their Brewster. Can the Aussies have our Boomerang?
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/36912/0.jpg)
:D
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Darn, I forgot all about the Boomerang. YES, by all means, add that to the wish list too!!!
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A dailey diet of flying requires 2 good B's to keep fit.
1. Brewster Buffalo
2.Boomerang
ADD the BREWSTEER AND THE BOOMERANG TO AH!!!!
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A dailey diet of flying requires 2 good B's to keep fit.
1. Brewster Buffalo
2.Boomerang
ADD the BREWSTEER AND THE BOOMERANG TO AH!!!!
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ok! im coverted!!!!!! after flying in the CT last night and getting 26:0 in the FM2 (simulating brewster for finnish terrain). I have come to the conclusion that we must have the brewster!!!!!!! :D
__________________
(http://www.geocities.com/rcafhornets/hornet.txt) (http://fly.to/418squadron)
418 'Hornet' Squadron RCAF
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would get the same use as a stirling short except in scenarios...my 2 cents anyhoo
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Originally posted by vorticon
would get the same use as a stirling short except in scenarios...my 2 cents anyhoo
..... HUH? you mean Short Stirling? and that probably would be used in MA because it had 14k bomb load!
__________________
(http://www.geocities.com/rcafhornets/hornet.txt) (http://fly.to/418squadron)
418 'Hornet' Squadron RCAF
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Originally posted by vorticon
would get the same use as a stirling short except in scenarios...my 2 cents anyhoo
Says Canadian...:rolleyes:
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Now this thread cannot be unnoticed:D
Give us the brewster
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Yep, it would be nice to have 239 modeled with multi-wing-point physics and NASA wind tunnel test tables.
Happy first of May! (Finnish carnival)
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But Mr.Wimpy it's not a swastika!
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I KNOW it isn't. It's very obvious in the image that it isn't.
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I..... Just...."like" ....to t.t.ttelll....
I...have....a...
hangover....
(puke)
....
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Originally posted by Xjazz
I..... Just...."like" ....to t.t.ttelll....
I...have....a...
hangover....
(puke)
....
:D It seems that hangover is very common disease in finnish culture after a holiday. I got some similar symptoms as xjazz did earlier this morning :cool:
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Brewster anyone???
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/bw-005.jpg)
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Wimpy and Siaf, what on earth are you talking about??? Surely IT is a swastika, a hooked cross.
Maybe you are trying to say that it is NOT a Nazi swastika.
To elaborate on the subject, there has never been a thing called "Von Rosen Cross". Such name has been born on these boards to tell of its origin and to separate it from the Nazi swastika. Surely the blue swastika came to FAF from Count von Rosen, but it was still called jus a swastika.
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Originally posted by BlauK
Wimpy and Siaf, what on earth are you talking about??? Surely IT is a swastika, a hooked cross.
Maybe you are trying to say that it is NOT a Nazi swastika.
To elaborate on the subject, there has never been a thing called "Von Rosen Cross". Such name has been born on these boards to tell of its origin and to separate it from the Nazi swastika. Surely the blue swastika came to FAF from Count von Rosen, but it was still called jus a swastika.
Actually, what we're referring to is the graphic in the 3rd message on the 6th page that shows a FAF Buffalo in POST Swastika insignia. The blue and white cockade.
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Ahh.. ok.. sorry, my mistake :)
And certainly you meant the FAF Brewster ;) ... Buffalos were the later degraded versions on the allied side :D
F2A-1 and its export version B-239 were before them.
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Originally posted by BlauK
Ahh.. ok.. sorry, my mistake :)
And certainly you meant the FAF Brewster ;) ... Buffalos were the later degraded versions on the allied side :D
F2A-1 and its export version B-239 were before them.
Nope, I meant Buffalo. Same basic design built by the Brewster company.
On this side of the Atlantic, we have a tendency to refer to all of the F2A family as Buffalos. :)
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I'd settle for the FM2 painted like the Finn version of the Buffalo. Like flying the FM2 alot. It's alot of fun....
Could we have it, huh, could we, huh? I waaaant it, I waaaaaaaant it! ;)
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Originally posted by BNM
I'd settle for the FM2 painted like the Finn version of the Buffalo. Like flying the FM2 alot. It's alot of fun....
Could we have it, huh, could we, huh? I waaaant it, I waaaaaaaant it! ;)
It works for now, but I would REALLY like to see the Buffalo, as well as the Gloster Gladiator, the CR 32/42, the Polikarpov I-15bis/I-153, the A5M Claude, the Ki-27 Nate and several others that have been chatted about in other threads.
Frankly though, I doubt very much if we'll see ANY of these.
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Originally posted by kanttori
This is World's BIGGEST Board, because EVERYBODY want's the BR...... Look below and under my name!:D
Well, look at the thread of "place your mugshots here", it's 13 (or 14?) threads big :D
and brewster? Wildcat is pretty much the same, looks like it tho...
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Originally posted by frank3
Well, look at the thread of "place your mugshots here", it's 13 (or 14?) threads big :D
and brewster? Wildcat is pretty much the same, looks like it tho...
Yeah, but the F4F can't fly 1000 miles without refueling. ;)
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And then, of course, no Halloween would be complete without the story of the Great Brewster...
The Legend of the Great Brewster
Hie thee close, little ones, and pulleth thee thy very goggles down o'er thy eyes, for a frightening tale it ist...
Yea, long ago it was, when the arena wert yet formless and void. And mere double digits didst compriseth yon Holy Version Number. And many were the Dweebish who floundereth and nose bounceth about the not-yet-haunteth-by-Dora skies. And yea, even NIGHT didst falleth...from time to time, and wispy wraiths didst flit about, and knoweth thee thy foe only by ephemeral icon couldst thou, and from nowhere couldst thy very entrails be ripped asunder, and littereth the not-yet-Rolling-Terrain (tm) with thine aircraft bits wouldst thou.
And it wast on such a night that IT didst appear. No ordinary Warbird it wert, for nowhere on thy Holy List Of Selectable Rides didst it appear. Nay, even those who hadst deciphereth the Holy Dot Codes of Antioch couldst not make it appeareth, for ".fly 56" bringeth only foul error messages, but not the vile Plane of the Dark One.
And it wast blue...and ugly. And yea, tho it looketh like yon ale barrel with wings, and remindeth all of it's historical namesake, yet flyeth it like yon demons of Billgatezebub. For tho mere peashooters SHOULDST it have, HUGE fangs of 30mm DIDST it have. And streaketh it through yon darkened WB skies it didst, with the speed of yon Wurgers of the Apocalypse, and flip-turneth it couldst, and when yon Magical Flaps did it extendeth, turneth inside all manner of Spitdweeb it couldst, and rend asunder many dweebs it didst, and many were the Dweebish screams that splitteth the night.
And only when the vile Kill Messages didst scroll across Dweebish text buffers, did the nature of The Beast becometh evident to all. Yea, when the first "Kill of -wulf- awarded to Hitech" scrolleth across yon screen, knoweth didst the dweebs what had arriveth. For it was the vile Brewster of Gyre Banor, and all who see-eth it didst perish in fiery conflagration.
And yet, after one foul night of "online testing," didst the Brewster Beast vanish, like the Komet to follow it years later, never to return...or so THINKETH the Dweebs.
For but a year later, to the day, didst ANOTHER shadowy beast appear. And the countenance of a Zeke didst it possesseth, but the speed of the winged horse PegaMustang didst it wield, and the sword of Rheinmetall didst it wield, and catcheth it all before it, and sweepeth them into fiery destruction it didst. And yea, tho the dweebs hopeth that it would disappeareth like the vile Brewster before it, yet did it persist. And gathereth in legion didst the Dweebish masses. And petitioneth to the Godz they didst, and die-eth in drove didst they, until finally, the Demon-Zeke wert made mortal again. And, with yon dweebish sigh of relief, wast all back to normal. Or so the Dweebs thinketh...
For on another night, but a year hence, didst the Beast appeareth again. And tho cloaketh in the silvery tones of the Godsteed Lightning it wert, behaveth as the whirling dervish it didst. And stoppeth on a dime it didst. And switcheth from up-goingeth to down-comingeth it didst, in but the blinketh of lo thy very eyes, and poundeth thee upon they face and cylinder heads with its mighty Hammer of Hispano it wouldst. And yea, again didst the Dweebs formeth a mighty Crusade, and in supplication and dweebishness didst they "reasoneth" with the Godz. And tho LONG was the struggle, at last was the vile Magical Beast vanquisheth, and lo wast it afflicted with the dreaded "flap drag" and again wast the Lightning but another Warbird.
And so it was, that upon the Hallow's Eve, in the wee hours, when neither Euro nor Ami didst yet stir, and only whacky Aussies didst frolic in the Holy Arena, if thou watcheth carefully, wouldst thou see the Great Brewster flitting about, near pumpkin patches and vulchfests, and picketh he out one Warbird, and PORKETH it royally he wouldst. And thus, each year haveth we a Magical Beast with which to contendeth.
And if thou believest not, look thou only to yon magical Spitfire, steed of no drag and Genie missiles. And keepeth thou watch upon Hallow's Eve, and perchance THY favorite steed wilt receiveth The Gift of the Great Brewster. And shall it be good? None can yet tell.
Sleepeth thou well, friend Linus.
--jedi
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Hehehe love it Grendel.
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h97000/h97540t.jpg)
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Bring the Brewster B-239 to Aces High with Finnish markings!
(http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/brewster/bw372_13_600w.jpg)
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YES it's time to see a
Brewster With Finnish Flag
and Why not even a Fiat G-50 Finnish Flag!!!
so with one airplane we will make happy both(italian and finnish!!)
(http://www.frenkenstein.com/ww2/finland/G50FINN.JPG)
_____________________________ ______________________
(http://www.altoprogetto.it/bigjava.gif)
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Originally posted by bigjava
YES so with one airplane we will make happy both(italian and finnish!!)
(http://www.frenkenstein.com/ww2/finland/G50FINN.JPG)
:D
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I think we need Brewster to AH2!
:D :aok
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Frankly, you silly, delusional twits, I don't see how it's possible.
The Brewster company went under during the war, almost 55 years ago. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find performance data on an aircraft like the Buffalo after all that time?
Even aircraft like the Corsair, which was far more popular with warbird enthusiasts than the despised and denigrated Buffalo, suffers from a lack of data. Francis Dean has done as much research into World War II fighters as any author in our times. As just one example of the problems he encountered in trying to gather data for his tome "America's Hundred Thousand" Dean states that no F4U roll rate data could be found above 290 mph IAS.
Cry in your beers if you must, but I strongly suspect that we will never see the Brewster in AH simply because there is not enough reliable, documented flight dat in existence to allow HiTech to create a viable flight model.
Twits.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Frankly, you silly, delusional twits, I don't see how it's possible.
The Brewster company went under during the war, almost 55 years ago. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find performance data on an aircraft like the Buffalo after all that time?
Cry in your beers if you must, but I strongly suspect that we will never see the Brewster in AH simply because there is not enough reliable, documented flight dat in existence to allow HiTech to create a viable flight model.
There's quite plenty of material about Brewster, actually.
Our association has, on my understanding, for example set of manuals for the Brewster and the thorough Finnish Air Force test flight data.
FiAF test fligth department also notified, that they had been only two planes that behaved perfectly to their factory specs and numbers. Other was Bf 109 G-2, other was the Brewster B-239. So the factory data can be trusted to certain extend as well.
This information has been used, in addition for other data, for making the Brewster you'll find in IL-2: Forgotten Battles. With the AEP expansion pack the IL2 Brewster behaves very well to the specs and is about as realistic, fully working Brewster as you can get made with today's sim technology.
So it has been done already, by another simulator maker.
IL2 Brewster has been flown by at least two WW2 Brewster pilots and seen by several others, and they've given it their acceptance.
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Originally posted by mipoikel
I think we need Brewster to AH2!
:D :aok
I AGREE
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100% bring brewster and perhaps the french fighter the D.520
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If HTC agrees to make a brewster, make sure they make 2 versions... one for the US Navy (heavily armored version), and one for the Finnish AF (stripped of armor and carrier specs) .
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NOBODY in their right mind would wanna fly the USN Armor-Plated version.
The difference between the original Buffalo and the armored version is like the difference between the F4F-3 and the F4F-4...
The F4F-4 is good for one thing and one thing only: Firepower. The F4F-3 completely out-classes it in every other respect. It also has a much less violent, low-speed snap stall at low altitude.
The armored Buffalo had some of the most vicious low-speed stall characteristics of any plane of the war. It was slow, cumbersome, and unforgiving. Terrible update of a great plane, sadly.
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If HTC choses to make a Finnish Buffalo (the version with stripped armor and carrier specs) , they should not be enabled in early PAC battles (ex. F4F, P-40, P-39D vs A6M, Ki-43)
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ok time for me to join the bandwagon
[size=10]Brewster to AH![/size]
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The Brewster Model 239 was a de-navalized variant of the standard navy F2A-1. The tailhook, life raft and catapult equipment were removed, the telescopic gun sight was replaced by a ring and bead sight, and the Wright R-1820-34 engine was replaced with an export approved 950 hp Wright 1820G-5 Cyclone. The Navy Direction Finding (RDF) antenna was replaced by a simplified RDF antenna mounted in the rear cockpit. Armament consisted of one .30 caliber and one .50 caliber machine gun mounted in the cowling and two .50 caliber machine guns mounted in the wings. Initial deliveries of the Model 239 began during February of 1940.
...
During the year of uneasy peace that followed, the Finns made a number of modifications to the Model 239 including the installation of armored headrest and seat back, and a reflector gun sight was installed in place of the ring and bead sight.
...
During its combat career in Finland the Buffalo is credited with 496 enemy aircraft destroyed against the loss of nineteen Buffalos, for a victory ratio of 26:1.
...
(http://www.llv32.org/panzzer/brewster.jpg)
from Squadron/Signal's Brewster F2A Buffalo In Action (aircraft number 81) by Jim Maas.
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Yei, bring the brewster in AH2 so the native people of finland would stop this whining ;)
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i agree 100 % :)
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Brewster for me also !
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UP!
No to forget a grand thread!
Bring the Brewster to AH!
Stalin's Fourth scenario would be true with it available. With the achievements the airframe had in the hand of the finns it would for sure get a dedicated following that would beat (or atleast make a glorius exit) against the odds leveled against it even in the MA.
Kentso
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2002 Thread of the Year!
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Holy old topic Batman!
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I was going to say the same thing, except there are posts from 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006...
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I've heard you can order Brewsters in here. I want one please! :D
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:furious
About freakin time to supply us with Brewsters!
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With all the effort that was put into the Map (not that I have played it online yet)
I think the Brewster would be a nice reward....
Never the less I think that these must be posted
(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/duma/images/cartoons/looserivets/200700.gif)
(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/duma/images/cartoons/looserivets/130201.jpg)
BTW PPL, They are not my work, For those of you who have been around for less than a couple of years (like me) go here for more info...
Loose Rivets (http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/duma/images/cartoons/looserivets/)
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:D
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B.R.E.W.S.T.E.R.
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Originally posted by Kentso
Stalin's Fourth scenario would be true with it available. With the achievements the airframe had in the hand of the finns it would for sure get a dedicated following that would beat (or atleast make a glorius exit) against the odds leveled against it even in the MA.
Only... when modeled correctly in AH it would suck worse than the P40B, and I know we just see hordes and HORDES of that plane in the MA every day!
Don't forget people use a 1944 plane to substitute for a pre-war plane. The FM2 is no indication of what the Brewster could do.
Brewster was obsolete. In real life you can get kills with a single 7mm MG on any plane. So kills were earned in many obsolete aircraft. In AH it would suck blow and stink all at the same time :P
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Well, we'd ofcourse need some more early war planes (I-16 Rata, I-153 Chaika) to act as worthy opponents. :) While it might not be a hit in the MA, it would still see use in the SEA and AvA. It's been a while since I last flew a sortie in the MA, so I don't really care whether it is available there or only in AvA and SEA.
Brewster was obsolete. In real life you can get kills with a single 7mm MG on any plane. So kills were earned in many obsolete aircraft. In AH it would suck blow and stink all at the same time :P
A single 7mm? I suggest you go read through this thread to see what the Finnish B-239's had as armament. :) (It was 3x12.7mm and the single 7mm - see my post at the top of this page!).
Time for the Brewster? :)
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I was not comparing directly the brewster to a single 7mm-armed-plane. I was simply saying "Any old thing with even one of the weakest guns, could and did get kills in real life -- but in this game it'd be totally different" :D
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Oh, and I did post a thread about the Brewster in the Wishlist-forum in August when it was started, linky (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157500&).
And Brewster air-to-air victory credits (http://www.warbirdforum.com/scores.htm).
Time for the Brewster? :)
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no
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Originally posted by ramzey
no
Oh right... Care to elaborate?
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brewster sucks.
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Brewster is THE BEST fighter evar!!!! The Real king of the K/D :p
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flying against poorly trained pilots flying sub standard aircraft. it would get annihilated in aces high, both in the MA and scenarios.
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Originally posted by Furball
flying against poorly trained pilots flying sub standard aircraft. it would get annihilated in aces high, both in the MA and scenarios.
If you would add I-16 and I-153 aswell, it would make an AvA setup which would give the best furballing fun AH has to offer.
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Originally posted by Wmaker
If you would add I-16 and I-153 aswell, it would make an AvA setup which would give the best furballing fun AH has to offer.
yes! bring them all to AH!
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Originally posted by Krusty
Only... when modeled correctly in AH it would suck worse than the P40B
You should really put that pipe down.
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Hi,
the flight datas of the brewster are not that bad at all. Thjough it dont had to offer much vs the A6M2, but same count for the I-16 and I-153.
The US F2A-3 dont had a more bad performence than the F4F. The F2A-3 got flown by poorly trained pilots in the pacific, the F4F´s got same bloody noses until the pilots got trained to make teamfight.
The FAF B.239 was more light but had less power, therfore the Vmax was worse, the climb similar but the turn better.
I dont see a reason not to include it. The relation between the F2A-3 and the Zero wouldnt be more bad than the FW190A8 vs other 1944 allied planes. The B.239 vs I-16 would be much more close.
I-16, I-153, Lagg3, Mig-3, Ki-43( 1+2+3) and Bf109E-7b are also welcome on my side. :)
Greetings, Knegel
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"more bad than the FW190A8 vs other 1944 allied planes"
No need to exaggarate. I don't think the Zero/Bw fight would be THAT bad. ;)
-C+
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Anybody have some info about the FAF Brewster turn circle?
Smallest turn circles, from Kweassa's excellent testing post:
Type: Radius
--------------------------------------
A6M2: 104.6m
Hurricane Mk.I: 111.0m
A6M5: 115.3m
Spitfire Mk.I: 117.3m
Hurricane Mk.IIc: 123.8m
FM-2: 128.1m
Ki-84-I-Ko: 133.2m
Spitfire Mk.IX: 134.3m
Spitfire Mk.V: 134.5m
Seafire Mk.II: 135.8m
F4F-4: 139.5m
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NACA F2A-3 tests (http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/navy/F2A3_turning.pdf) are pretty good starting point for analyses.
gripen
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i dont think they managed a complete circle during testing without getting shot down or crashing into the ground.
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What's the size of a standard 1940's phone booth?
Camo
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Originally posted by Furball
i dont think they managed a complete circle during testing without getting shot down or crashing into the ground.
not true!
a lot of them crashed into the ocean (pwnd!)
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Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
What's the size of a standard 1940's phone booth?
Camo
i dont know, but i hear the brewster crashed into the sides.
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At least the Brewster has class... or have you heard of any other plane receiving beer bottle labels as kill markings? :D
True AH dweeb style :aok
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http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7805
Now you can all model planes.
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Duh,
it has never been about being able to model planes, but being allowed to do so ;) AFAIK it has not changed either. There is so much more to making a plane into a game than just building a 3D model.
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EAW have the F2A-3 and B.239, as FM and Skin. :D
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Yay, give us our Brewster and some of those earlier Red Stars to compete with! :aok
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why not just up a goon and pretend you are in a brewster? its firepower and performance is about the same :t
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Originally posted by Furball
ok! im coverted!!!!!! after flying in the CT last night and getting 26:0 in the FM2 (simulating brewster for finnish terrain). I have come to the conclusion that we must have the brewster!!!!!!! :D
:aok :D
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i have made a point of contradicting myself in this thread, have a cookie for realising :)
(http://www.allisonsgourmet.com/graphics/gift-basket-cookie.jpg)
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:eek: Thank you Karvapallo:)
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HT testing becoming FAF Brewster flight model
http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/F3P-AM_Benoit.wmv (use save as... ~15M wmv)
it's porked
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Originally posted by Have
Yay, give us our Brewster and some of those earlier Red Stars to compete with! :aok
that would be cool, you could up a Polikarpov & then say "Lets go pound some Brewskis"
then when you landed your kills you could say "I love it when a plan comes together"
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OR, you could really run into some and say "I love it when my plane comes apart"?
-C+
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While the Brewster would be at a distinct speed disadvantage in the main arena, the F2A-1, which was 400 pounds lighter than the F4F-3, could be one of the supreme furballers in the game.
The F2A-1 could almost match the climb rate of the early F4F-3 to 20,000 feet, reaching that altitude in seven and a half minutes.
To put that in perspective, the late war hot rod F4U-4 could reach 20,000 feet just 45 seconds faster than the F4F-3.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
While the Brewster would be at a distinct speed disadvantage in the main arena, the F2A-1, which was 400 pounds lighter than the F4F-3, could be one of the supreme furballers in the game.
Truly :aok
An experienced FiAF Brewster pilot was teaching the new ones on how to fight against ruski Hurricanes... "just turn with them and they are easy to kill" ;)
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BlauK, you exaggerate, though. The Finnish pilots were up against total retards, when it came to piloting skills. Make a mythical aircraft, give it a turning radius of HALF that of the best turn fighter in the game, and put a retard in it, and you can still out-turn it.
That doesn't mean that "in equal hands, a brewster will out-turn a hurricane" -- it just means that the Finns could, and did, against far inferior pilots. :aok
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Dunno Krusty,
Capt. Hans Wind's Lectures on Fighter tactics - part "solo fighting" (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html#solofighting)
Why would an experienced pilot risk giving such advice to new pilots? One could never know the enemy pilot's experience just by the plane type.:confused:
And I would not go as far as to dispise the skills of all pilots in any airforce in general. Possibly there were more newbies in VVS those days, but I have not seen any thorough study on the subject so far.
Anyhow, the lecture is naturally based on subjective opinions and experiences, and not on detailed tests, but still it tells something about the Brewsters' performance and potential as well ;)
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I meant the Soviet pilots were the "retards", so that any pilot above the "retard" level would easily out-turn them. The Finns were better, sure, but being able to out turn a hurricane means little about the plane, if the hurricane pilot can't find the throttle with a map and 2 hands >:D
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Originally posted by Krusty
I meant the Soviet pilots were the "retards"
Quite a sweeping (and pompous) statement.
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Uh, in finnish markings? how ya gonna get around the skins requirement of no swastikas?
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Krusty... VVS = soviet air force
Ridley, there are already some planes with Finnish markings. The HTC skin policy is obviously concerning the nazi swastikas, not the Finnish ones ;)
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Yes, I'm aware of that BlauK. My point is that the Finnish forces were much more capable, and this is because of their people and training, not because of the Brewster. They would have done just as well with export P40s or P36s.
TimRas, going by the things posted on these forums, links to long articles, webpages on the subject, the Finns did not prevail by using a better technology. They prevailed because they developed tactics, they figured out better ways to fight, ways to fight to their advantage. They won because the VVS in the beginning of the war was very inept.
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I thought since we are talking about which aircraft should be voted for inclusion into AH I would post some information about the delightful handling characteristic of this little fighter that served the Finnish Air Force so well over 60 years ago. :)
Here are couple of anecdotes about the handling qualities of the Brewster from the Francis Dean's famous book "America's hundred thousand":
The following comments are particularly interesting considering that they are from the U.S. Navy pilots who had been flying very maneuverable F3F biplane fighters before the Brewster.
Navy pilot: "When first produced the F2A-1 was an excellent aerobatic aircraft, a delight to fly."
Another Navy pilot (about the F2A-2 version, probably before some of the weight gaining modifications): "I think it would have matched the Zero (in maneuverability)."
Foreign quote about the regarding the 339 export version: "The Buffalo could almost match Zeke 22 for maneuverability."
The British commented: "The aircrfat was excellent for all acrobatics. It behaves with the ease of a Gloster Gladiator, and is just as simple to acrobat."
General comments about (during) maneuvering: "Elevators were very effective", "Ailerons were highly effective throughout the speed range" and "Rudder performance was good".
Comments from the finnish pilots are generally very similar to these.
So here is what I think it would be in AH:
It would be the slowest fighter in the game, with very similar turn rate and radius as the A6M2 with a nice roll rate (significantly faster than Hawk-75A according to finns). It would also have very good high speed handling. In general it would be easy and delightful to fly. It just can,t run or catch anything. :)
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Originally posted by Meatball
Of course, the BW needs it adversaries as well, the I-16 and I-153 would be nice. Plumpy too, they are. And continuing in the plumpiness vein, I would most of all like to see the Me163 in AH. :) [/B]
wouldnt the Me 163 be that little rocket powered delta winged A/C found in the hanger:O
Oh ya btw "IN":noid
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Originally posted by morfiend
wouldnt the Me 163 be that little rocket powered delta winged A/C found in the hanger
You didn't check the date of that post, did you? Maybe there was a time in AH when 163's weren't available...
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brewster..looks like a cool plane:D
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well I think this settles it.
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BALANCE1 WANT BREWSTER!!!!!!!! ME WANT BREWSTER NOW!!!!!
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i would rather have the Polikarpov I-16 than the Brewster
I want the Petlyakov Pe-8 also
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Good news gentlemen... the Brewster is on its way to Aces High! :salute
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Plazus saves the day!!
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the brewster buffalo will be torn to pieces in lwa
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the brewster buffalo will be torn to pieces in lwa
Juice, your a tool, you have no idea what your talking about or know anything on the brewster. I cant wait for the day you have a brewster on your six and he blows you out of the sky.
Have a nice day
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Juice, your a tool, you have no idea what your talking about or know anything on the brewster. I cant wait for the day you have a brewster on your six and he blows you out of the sky.
Have a nice day
:rofl
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i would rather have the Polikarpov I-16 than the Brewster
I want the Petlyakov Pe-8 also
I want them all. I'd love ot have a late war arena holding every single plane, but I congfess I want the planes fighting early first since the issue of the war was in doubt.
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What's the size of a standard 1940's phone booth?
Camo
They had it early on but it was over modeled it was perked out of existence until the 1939 Touring Packard super V-12 came along and ran them all over.
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Count me in, too! :aok
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Furrball i find your anti brewster attitude disturbing.
Didn't your mother ever tell you "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?"
More people than you or I have waited YEAR after YEAR after YEAR for this aircraft. Will you fly it? "o' course!"
I will, and hundreds of thousands of other people will fly it in the upcoming months/years, and ENJOY it.
My gosh man, i dont care what is added next, as long as something IS added!
my only hope to HTC is that they choke us so full of early war rides that we wanna puke, lets spend a year adding sub par machines, to give these ubber 44-45 rides some MEANING.
I dont mind paying perks for a late war ride, if the early version are free, then again with most of us sitting at 2,000+ perks, who cares?
QUESTION: Out of all the fighting units in wwII, how many units used sub par aircraft (41-43) all the way to the wars end?
Answer: More than I would ever care to admit.
WE NEED MORE EARLY RIDES.
Dont like them, dont fly them.
I WILL.
-no bash or ill will intended to you furrball. :salute you have your right to your views and opinions-
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Juice, your a tool, you have no idea what your talking about or know anything on the brewster. I cant wait for the day you have a brewster on your six and he blows you out of the sky.
Have a nice day /quote]
:lol the brewster buffalo won't be a threat to my P47N
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then again with most of us sitting at 2,000+ perks, who cares?
Holy crap.. :confused:
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Holy crap.. :confused:
Or would be sitting unless they lost all their perks through cancellation / wife ack / changing name carelessly :uhoh
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One question about the Brewster... does it feature fuel injection?
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One question about the Brewster... does it feature fuel injection?
Nope, R-1820 had a carburator.
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Nope, R-1820 had a carburator.
Eh... I was afraid of that. So this means when you push your stick forward, your engine will cut off?
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Eh... I was afraid of that. So this means when you push your stick forward, your engine will cut off?
Nope, it depends of the type and action of the carburator. Most fighters in AH have carburators.
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Nope, it depends of the type and action of the carburator. Most fighters in AH have carburators.
Rgr, thank you sir! :salute