Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: easymo on May 01, 2002, 02:25:20 AM
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This may sound like a rant. But it is a sincere question for our liberal brethren. How can you slip so far into denial. Every time the shooting stops for a couple of years, you guys are ready to declare "peace on earth". Any school boy, who has ever attended a history class, can tell you, mans history is one war after another. People don't leave America alone because of our good will. I don't care what Hollywood would have you belive. They leave us alone because our troops are well trained, efficient, killers. This is something they are rightfully proud of. And I thank the Gods for. Most of us sleep well at night knowing we have those people watching over us. If all we had was a bunch of guys holding out the hand of friendship, and singing We Are The World, I would never sleep again.
Winston Churchill had a hell of a time dragging the British out of their Pacifist fantasy. In fact it took the Germans knocking on the door to wake them up. Our president had to wait until the Japanese BOMBED us before the U.S. came out of its fog. It is always the same, throughout history. Not wanting to fight a war is not going to magically stop it from happening. IMHO reducing your countries ability to wage war INVITES attack, though the appearance of weakness, and hastens the very thing you guys claim you want to avoid.
How can you ignore even your own nature?
None of you would play an online game that had you raping, and tourturing small children. Thats because you are all "normal"
All of you play an online game that has you shooting down, and killing other people. Thats because you are "normal"
It may not be pretty. But the same instinct that makes you check the text for your kill message, is the same one that caused that Canadian sniper to have his pic taken with that bag of meat. I find this one especially odd, considering how you guys often ooh and ahh over the number of kills some real life pilot got. I'm damned if I see any difference between a bunch of swastika stickers pasted on the side of a ww2 P51. And a ground pounders trophy pic.
So thats my question. In the face of mans nature, his undeniable history, and the darker side of your own nature. How can you possibly, live in your peace,love, dove, fantasy world?
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I've always wanted to be present at one of those peace rallys and speak my mind too.
"Why must you war mongers cause so much death and destruction. Why can't you realise that we don't have to be like this!"
Because people who beat their swords into plowshares end up working for those who didn't. THAT IS WHY!
Hans.
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Hey howdy Easymo..
But it is a sincere question for our liberal brethren. How can you slip so far into denial. Every time the shooting stops for a couple of years, you guys are ready to declare "peace on earth".
Heh..
A couple of quick questions for you and then some comments
In 1919 were the Conservatives for or against the League of Nations?
In 1940/41 were the Conservatives for or against entering the war in Europe?
In 1999 were the Conservatives for or against Operation Allied Force?
In 1965 when you were in Viet Nam, what was the actual geopolitical breakdown among the troops?... I’m guessing these young guys didn’t talk much about politics but you must of got a sense of which way they leaned. Republicans would like us to believe they’re the rah-rah gun-ho party all the time but I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. Democrats and Liberals fought hard in all America’s wars so I’m not at all sure how this myth of Democrats as meek little bunnies hiding under the bed until it all blows over got started.
It’s the isolationists in this country that seem to think that if the world goes to hell in a hand basket that somehow this island called America would not be adversely affected.
As a more progressive leaning person, I’d like to believe that stronger ties to other countries, education, more free trade, more free press are the key to a longer lasting peace. You don’t want to bomb the folks that buy your TV sets.. You don’t want to deny their income to buy those TVs.
EasyMo, the most antiwar people I’ve ever met have been Viet Nam Combat Veterans...
As far as our game goes, it’s the hunt and tactics deployed to achieve glory not the kill itself. "The Hunt" is what's part of human nature and what we miss in this modern life.
Hey yo.. what are you doing up so late?.. :)... can’t sleep like me.
Peace..
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It may be mere chance that I have never met an honest pacifist...I have never heard of any pacifist organization that will face facts.
Ezra Pound [/b] - Impact[/i]
Taking it as a whole, the pacifist position is commonly the result of dis-honesty with ones self and the lack of courage to face facts. Force governs all the universe. Whether it be in mans relationship to man or in nature.
History has shown that violence is what gets things done. Or atleast the threat of violence.
The idyllic Nature of Rousseau and his romanticism is a dream of men running away from real life. Nature as revealed to us by biologists, just go into the woods and look, is a Nature red with fangs and claws and poison. Life preys on life.
Humanity is no different. Except that we are capable of setting "rules" and enforcing these with the threat of greater violence.
Something are worth killing for and as long as we are willing to do just that then "peace" may have a chance.
"Dont Tread on Me"
The only reason the modern "pacifist" is able to excersize his "belief" is because the world is full of violent men ready to fight and kill to preserve it.
No "sit in" or "hunger strike" or "campfire sing along" will do anything to keep the wolves at bay.
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A lot of it is probably hold-over from the 60s and early 70s Easymo. My Dad used to say The Beatles were the beginning of the decline of the United States. Now look what's happened. I believe music, along with song lyrics, is influential in shaping attitudes of people. And, at least as I know it, Beatles music was/is harmonious to the point of being hypnotic, and is well suited to "flower children" and their pursuits.
Anyway, that's my answer as far as the so-called peace movement in the 60s goes. Bear in mind, that the Beatles were from England, where the pacifist idea had held out during the post WWII era to some extent. People were tired of war and needed some "peace" for awhile, though I do admire Prime Minister Thatcher for her guts and leadership during the 80s. She was Britain's modern day Churchill. Churchill and Thatcher are very good representatives of Britain. When I think of Britain and the soul of Britain, that's who I think of.
Will close this by saying, the absence of war is not peace. Sometimes it means the tyrants have won and are having their way with a poor, hapless population. In that way, it's not peace. I believe that folks who don't want war are probably concerned with what the cost will be to our men and women in arms above all else. Sometimes war is necessary, but it is always very bad when it happens.
Les
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The Beatles were the downfall of America?
If the very fabric of your country can be unravelled by a bunch of people listening to progressive music, I don't see why people should care so much about such a fragile entity. Surely things are just a little more complicated than that?
As for pre-WW2 British policy towards Germany: I'd say if the horrors of WW1 were fresh on your mind, Bolshevikism seemed to be threatening the the very structure of your society and a well organised man by the name of Hitler seemed to want to reunite Germans separated by the terms of a treaty you were now embarrassed to even remember, you'd be a little reluctant to enter a war.
Again, things are much complicated than they first appear.
Leslie - Thatcher was a right-wing nutcase, lap-dog of US foreign policy makers, who destroyed most of the communities around where I grew up. Her policies revolved around the 'greed is good' mantra. Frankly, I'm glad she'll never make another speech again.
Comparing her to Churchill is tenuous at best and a tremendous disservice to everything Churchill stood for at worst.
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Leslie - good observations! I agree that the 60's really popularized the idea that Utopia is possible -
that there can be Peace on Earth
that we can solve world hunger by ourselves
that we can end poverty.
I think this kind of thinking is the result of years and years of good times in the USA. Good economy. High standard of living. Higher education for everybody, taught by liberals from the safety of the ivory towers.
In reality, you have to die and go to heaven to get all that stuff.
Good post Easymo!
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Damn, with the title "Pacifist Fantasy" I figured this was going to be a "Penthouse letter" featuring hot hippy chicks.
Dear Penthouse,
Although I've read your fine publication for many years I never thought I'd be writting to you! But you'll never believe what happened to me while driving through Northern California...
Oh well, guess I'll have to go download porn.
-Sikboy
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Ah Dowding, you ruined your reply by adding an edit. Up to that point I was willing to listen to you. One question, why? It weakened your argument considerably...with me anyway.:D
Les
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Hmmm... not sure what you mean Leslie.
I just tagged the rant about Thatcher on the end. I grew up under her reign in one of her 'target' areas. Where are you coming from on this?
:)
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Hey, if WWII was won by the allies is because Captain Kirk let that sissy Joan Collins die when he travelled to the past :D:D:D
Daniel
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No offense intended Dowding toward you mate. I am interested in what happened to your communities, and how they were destroyed by greed, in your mind, by the US foreign policy makers.
I'm not from England and have never visited there, however my family moved to Illinois from England (Lincolnshire) in the 1890's...so I do have an interest in the homeland of my ancestors.
Hope you will see it that way Dowding. I am interested in how Britain is doing, because we consider you guys to be our greatest friends and allies in the free world.
Just wanted to say that. Please, let's not have another Revolutionary War...LOL.
:)
Les
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"liberal here!"
Just when exactly was I signed up to the Pacifist Party? Just wondering, cause I don't remember signing the forms. :)
Funny thing is, I a- a-- ag---- agree (hard to spit that one out) with easymo about almost everything in his post except the equating of Pacifists with Liberals.
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No, Leslie, I think you misunderstand. I wasn't saying US foreign policy or Thatcher's support of it destroyed communities around here - I was saying her internal policies affected us. It had nothing to do with the US, in fact. I was simply listing her faults - and they weren't neccessarily related.
She was scum. Now she's just senile scum.
I hope that clears it up. :D
PS. Lincolnshire is a stone throw away from me. My mother's family is from there.
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Get some sleep Dowding.
Les:D
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You cant paint all liberals with the same brush, they come in all flavors, just like conservatives. Just because the pacifists fall generally into the liberal side of the equation doesnt mean that all liberals are pacifists. I am very conservative on pretty much all issues, both fiscal and social, and you wont hear me saying that liberals in general are unpatriotic or anything like that. I disagree with the liberals on the positions they hold, but most of the time I can at least see the point that they are arguing for, even if I disagree with it completely.
For example, I believe that rent controls do not and cannot work, the way they are usually structured. I understand what liberals are trying to do with rent controls (keep housing affordable for lower class people) and it is a noble effort, but it just wont work. Rent controls invariably cause a shortage of housing for the very people that the liberals are trying to help.
This is common among most issues. Both sides are trying, in the best way they know how, according to their beliefs and experience, to do something. In many cases, both sides agree on the general objective that they want, (less poverty, crime, cleaner environment etc etc) the disagreement is on how to get there. When you understand this fact, you will be less likely to hate the other side. The liberals are not interested in ending the American way of life as we know it (well maybe a few of them are, but most of them I mean) and conservatives do not want to see the world polluted into a giant trashcan or anything like that. In many cases, both sides have valid points and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Nonetheless, I believe that on most issues, there is a definite right answer, and I believe that the conservative position is the right one obviously or I wouldnt be a conservative. This doesnt make me hate liberals, or call them names, I understand that they are mostly trying to do good in the best way they know how.
The peace movement is in this category to some degree. I think everybody would agree that peace is a worthy objective, and like somebody said earlier, those that love peace the most are war veterens. I agree with the point that humans have a competitive/hunters even somewhat violent nature and that is why so many of us love games like AH, football, paintball, hunting/fishing etc. The difference between somebody that is a pacifist type, and me is, in my opinion, a difference between somebody that is either not realistic in their view of human nature and the world, or being intellectually dishonest, and somebody that has a optimistic but realistic view of the way things really are.
I believe in the goal of peace, but I believe that the way to get peace is to be strong. The notion that violence never solved anything is wrong. Violence is deplorable, and certainly a last resort, but there are times when it is the ONLY option. To believe that somehow there will be an end of violence here on earth and that people will somehow learn to get along peacefully is to be deceived. Long periods of peace are only possible when enforced by a great strength. The country that has had peace probably the longest of any country (Switzerland) has done so by riding on a fearsome military reputation built hundreds of years ago, and backed up by currently having a strong military as well. Of course they are helped by their geographical location to some degree, and being strong doesnt always guarantee peace, but it does provide the best chance of it. The truth of the matter is, there are very few things that are worse than war, but there are a few. Some things are worth fighting for, and some things are worth dying for.
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Good post Durr. It did answer some of my questions. And I am one of those people that makes the mistake of lumping pacifists in with libirals. The funny thing is I am in the same boat in reverse. I do not consider myself a hard line conservative, though I think I am perceived this way. For example, you rightly, point out that anyone with any sense wants to stop warfare. We just differ greatly, at times, on how to stop it. I think some here consider me a racist. The truth is I am saddened, and disgusted, when any American is abused for no reason other than their race. We just differ on how to stop it. When I was a solider I was surrounded by black men. They were treated like men, no different then anyone else. And they responded as men. Extraordinary men at that. Having learned this lesson as a boy, I belive the way to stop the abuse of black people, is to stop treating them like children. No special programs, no, so called, helping hands. I have good reason to belive that if they are treated no different than aanyone else, they will respond by becoming one of this nations greatest asscets. In many cases they have done this already. So, like war, we all agree that this is bad. We just disagree about how to stop it.
10bears. Geopolitical position? We were teenagers. The only position we had any real interest in, could only be achieved in the back seat of a 57 chevy with a teenage girl.
Most arrived in Vietnam thinking they were going to play cowboys and Indians. They left knowing that the world was a much darker, and more dangerous place, than they ever could have imagined.
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"Did George Orwell ever say: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?" Or: "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us?"
All the a.b.g-o regulars agreed it was something he might have said in one of his more truculent moods. But if he did say it, where? If so, why can't any of us find it? (It is not, apparently, mentioned in the recent Complete Works, edited by Peter Davison).
The nearest version is contained in Orwell’s essay on Rudyard Kipling (1942): "[Kipling] sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them." (Thanks to Keith Ammann for this).
Unless someone finds a source for the ‘rough men’ quote, it seems to be an Orwellian piece of disinformation."
Orwell or not.. these phrases pretty well sum it up for me.
Rough Men (http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~allport/chestnut/a_b_g-o_FAQ_R_Z.html)
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Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier.
--Samuel Johnson--
True enough.
The draft for the War in Vietnam ended 1 month before I turned 18. At the time I was relieved, for I would have gone (not to Canada, to Vietnam). Later in life I regret that I never served, and I always have a greater respect for those who do.
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I'm a Liberal, but make no mistake, I'll fight.
Most Liberals that I've talked with, the vast, vast majority as a matter of fact, will fight.
I think that the "pacifist at any cost" Liberal is a propaganda creation of the Conservatives. The same kind of crap propaganda that has led Right wingers in this country to wrap themselves and their ideas in the flag, calling everyones else unamerican.
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Bingo.
This liberal served ten years in the U.S. Navy. :P
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"But it is a sincere question for our liberal brethren..........Winston Churchill had a hell of a time dragging the British out of their Pacifist fantasy. "
Actually, the British and French left wing were screaming blue murder about the rise of fascism from about 1935 onwards. I guess it was "pacifistic fantasist liberals" who fought in the Militias and in the International Brigades vs Franco, Hitler, Mussolini et al in Spain huh? :rolleyes:
Our president had to wait until the Japanese BOMBED us before the U.S. came out of its fog
Yep, a liberal President right? You should give up trying to use historical examples to support your flag-waving anti liberal hysterical diatribes, as the facts don't support you.
IMHO reducing your countries ability to wage war INVITES attack, though the appearance of weakness, and hastens the very thing you guys claim you want to avoid.
Agreed, although I haven't seen anyone on this board actually advocating the weakening of our ability to defend ourselves. What I would actually question are the current motivations for events in Afghanistan, West Bank etc. Afghanistan is the US making a grab for long term strategic control of central asian energy reserves; the moneymen who pull the Bush family's strings are on record as stating this is what they want. Sharon and the Likud is again on record as coveting the entire West Bank; again this is why some "liberals" question his current motivation.
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Where are yoy from Dowding? Some sort of long useless coal mining town?
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CH3 - do you take your name from the CH3 in 'A Piece of Cake'? :)
Where are yoy from Dowding? Some sort of long useless coal mining town?
I left at the first opportunity at 18, and have since returned to the area working in the nearby city.
It seems strange that you of all people should assume the area is useless. It seems packed with your compatriots these days - the government has chosen (in its infinite wisdom) to put several thousand assylum seekers in the local towns, mainly from the Balkans and Eastern Europe. They are very useful - standing around in their cool leather jackets sneering at passing women.
I've had personal experience with Kosovans, and frankly many English people around here think they are the scum of the Earth. The British Nationalist Party is quite active around here, for instance. My ex-girlfriend ran a support group for women and a couple of them had been raped by these so called assylum seekers. Her mother was mugged by three of the bastards. People resent their presence, considering how poor the general population is. They get the best houses (fully furnished) for instance in preference to British citizens.
Those I met were ok however. But I can't help but think most of them have no place over here - especially in such a deprived 'useless' area.
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My pacifist fantasy involves Hanoi Jane (at a younger age), her Barbarella spacesuit, and a giant trampoline in a pool of jello.
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join the bnp you may help in changing all that :) I think Tyndall was saying the same stuff back in the 70s when the national front was marching through the streets beating up hippies
:)
bogus asylum seekers flooding into Britain cant be a good thing..or is it?
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You won't find a Hawk who's seen war up close and personal.
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I dislike the BNP more than the bogus assylum seekers, Wotan. I consider them to be hijackers of national pride and patriotism. They are opportunistic fascists, pure and simple.
I think Britain is a soft touch on assylum and things need to change. There also needs to be few more sent to the home counties instead of the deprived areas, whose local authorities are struggling with the 'natives' as it were.
Assylum is something I support. But freeloading? Definitely not.
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I agree 100% Dowding most people from the former Yugoslavia are lazy criminals who got used to living with no responsibility or accountability under the loving protection of communists (socialists to you) like yourself. and I think the Kosovars are scum of the earth too, rank criminals and degenerates like the dirty gypsies, who are known to kidnap children :), and the like.
So I was right you were from one of those UK govt welfare sponsored useless coal mining towns?
And I must applaud you on you strong anti-freeloader anti lazy "asylum" welfare hound status! There is hope for you yet!!! :)
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"You won't find a Hawk who's seen war up close and personal."
Where do you guys get this crap? My father went through hell as a POW in Korea. And he was not thrilled about me going to Vietnam. But he understood my reason for doing it.
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Originally posted by easymo
"You won't find a Hawk who's seen war up close and personal."
Where do you guys get this crap?
I think there's a store in Berklynistan, just off campus, next to the homeless park.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by 10Bears
EasyMo, the most antiwar people I’ve ever met have been Viet Nam Combat Veterans...
I just wanted to say that there is a really big difference between pacifism and being antiwar.
Kanthy
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I think there's a store in Berklynistan, just off campus, next to the homeless park.
-Sikboy
ROFL..coffee spitter :D
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yech, all this pacifism is making me sick...
starting to sound like our downstairs house-mates from Canada.
"peace, love, turn the other cheek".. YECH
nothing wrong with Canada mind you...
hell. . they brought us the best sport in the world!
but a dose of reality might help.
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peace?? sure.. it's possible; i guess.
so's divine intervention.
hedge your bets...
pray for the day when there only 12 nukes left in the world...
..and we have 'em all.
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We who?
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Our side, whichever side that may be at the time.....
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Originally posted by easymo
People don't leave America alone because of our good will.
you may have good will but your GOVERMENT SUX
why ?
look at this fact
US is part of NATO,CZ as well
we send some troops from time to time to somewhere
they figting on the same side
And people of CZ need VISA to be able to visit US as tourists.
well this isnt so annoying .. annoying is fact, that 90% of people will not get that VISA, without declaring a reason. :rolleyes:
Friend of mine had contract with US company, he worked for them here as well. He has never been arested or defendant. His wife as well ... and his apply for VISA has been declied w/o declare a reason....... so he said that to his boss, he arrived to Czech(with 2 lawyer) and went to the ambasady ... in 30 mints their decision has changed and he got VISA imidiatly. They told him before, that he have to wait 1 year before new apply ..... oo yeah our army is ready to help you anytime.....
how do they makeing decision ?
just for your information you have to give them these doc. when you applying ( their easy form, list of countryies whitch you VISITED in last 10 years, account staytment(detailed) from last 3 months, contract of your job here, how much money do you earing.
well .. i wanted to visit some friends, not to join CIA
so you may see why i have hessitation about US`s 'good will'
im pretty sure, that will of goverment isnt will of 'normal' people
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From what position are you speaking? :rolleyes:
Kanthy
Originally posted by Eaglecz
you may have good will but your GOVERMENT SUX
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are you asking to me ?
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Orel was dumped by a fat girl from Wisconson once, you'll have to forgive his hostility, it tore his heart apart. In an attempt to rationalize it he has come to the conclusion it was a government anti-orel propoganda campaign that brainwashed her, otherwise she'd have still loved him.
You see, the people are good, it's the govt that sux. (Unless you're the immigration worker that had your eye on that cow from Wisc, in which case it's pretty damn cool, she's single now!)
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lol Fatty you arent far away from true
but she isnt from Wisconson
yeah and that 45`s years old office rat (immigration worker )
was quite confused about fact, that i wanted to visit her(i had invitation)
hard to speak with an oscarH0|€ about thing like friendship
well that was my story
hey fatty by the way my information resources saying , that US people are odd :p (if you will compare them to us)
ahh . yes and here are many other people with difrent reasons, but same result ...
i dont think it is conspiracy.. its just a stupidity ... :rolleyes:
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[QUOTE
I've had personal experience with Kosovans, and frankly many English people around here think they are the scum of the Earth. The British Nationalist Party is quite active around here, for instance. My ex-girlfriend ran a support group for women and a couple of them had been raped by these so called assylum seekers. Her mother was mugged by three of the bastards. People resent their presence, considering how poor the general population is. They get the best houses (fully furnished) for instance in preference to British citizens.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Somebody from Africa (cant remember country) said something like this.(interpretation is by my words)
"The one day Army of NATO has come.
They brought many ills and left many childrens here."
i will try to find an original
Its funny how everybody think, that he is from holy,right country.
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Originally posted by easymo
So thats my question. In the face of mans nature, his undeniable history, and the darker side of your own nature. How can you possibly, live in your peace,love, dove, fantasy world? [/B]
do you missing blood or pain ?
do you missing feel of victory ?
do you missing feeling of being great ?