Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Udie on May 01, 2002, 09:55:28 AM
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http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm
The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.
(Two weeks ago, when European and particularly London newspapers were reporting estimates of "hundreds" massacred, Israeli sources in Washington said they expected the Palestinian toll to reach "45 to 55.")
Hmm could the news people be letting their biases get in the way of honest reporting?
Families living in houses directly opposite the destroyed area have told The Washington Times that Israeli soldiers, who temporarily occupied their houses just before the final battle began, treated them without violence and assured them: "You will not be harmed."
They confined the 36 members of the Abu Khalil family to two rooms, allowing them out one by one, and set up a snipers' point upstairs through two holes in the wall under a family framed message in Arabic: "There is No God but Allah and Mohammed is His Messenger."
They confiscated identity cards but left them on the table before slipping out during the night.
Boy that IDF is made up of a bunch of nazi animals huh? :rolleyes:
WTFG! Isreal for standing up to the UN on their "fact" finding mission.
It will be interesting to see how many retractions we get from all those who wrote/made up "massacre" stories. I bet we see very very few. But I wouldn't expect as much from people who support murderers, terrorist and the like. I can't understand how any educated person could possibly support arafat and his chronies, have you learned nothing from history? I can only think you guys are extremely ignorant, extremely more stupid or just plain evil. The evil tag though I save for polititians, especialy inside of the UN.
flame away.....
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"They confined the 36 members of the Abu Khalil family to two rooms"
huh?
Are they living in a hotel? 36 ppl under one roof?
And I thought the Indian Patel's with their roach motels here in the states were bad :)
The massacre story will just fade away once it's falsehood is brought to light. The Pals will not be held accountable for the slander either... as they are just innocent victims :rolleyes:
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[punt to annoy the terrorist supporters]
Originally posted by Eagler
The massacre story will just fade away once it's falsehood is brought to light. The Pals will not be held accountable for the slander either... as they are just innocent victims :rolleyes:
Seems to be fading fast here anyway, I didn't expect the murderer supporters to comment on it. They tend to run from the light of truth....
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(scurrying across the kitchen floor, ducking under the refergerator as Udie turns on the Light of Truth)
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WOW!
I really thought some of you dudes who support the terrorist would have spoke up by now. Maybe Elfenwolf is right....
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You guys (that support arafat) are all hypocrites! What a bunch of rutabagas you guys are. When confronted with facts, that your side uses lies and deciet to try and win a propaganda war that will allow them to exterminate more Jews from this planet, you all run and scurry away like cochroaches!
I expected at least a few personal attacks (got a couple over at AGW, thank to living up to your usual self fdski ;)) But you guys over hear are weak man. Not one response all day. Not one response to try and rebut the facts of the article.
What a sorry bunch of hypocrites you are.....
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I read that the local palistinean grave yard has come up missing a few dozen bodies lately... I wonder where they went :)
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36 people is a massacre?
What a bunch of softies.
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Originally posted by Udie
you all run and scurry away like cochroaches!
Udie, guess what? Us cockroaches will still be here long after you humans have killed each other off fighting over which God has the truest message of love and acceptance for those different than yourselves. Just remember the old motto- "Leave No Witnesses-" before you start praising (or justifying) the Israeli incursions into Palestinian territory. Personally, whatever can stop this cycle of violence is an acceptable solution to me, provided that solution doesn't call for the genocide of an entire race or "population," as you humans are so wont to call the Palestinian cockroaches infesting territory claimed by Israel. By all means, rant on, bro.
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Names! Udie! We want Names!!!!
Sometimes you just have to call the fish by name. ;)
:D
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I don't think I've seen any supporters of Arafat on here.
Perhaps you should try the PLO BBS? You might have more success there.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I don't think I've seen any supporters of Arafat on here.
Perhaps you should try the PLO BBS? You might have more success there.
heck I'd be happy if just one of the people that were spouting off about the "massacre" would come here and admit he/they were wrong.....
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:::chuckles::: Why doncha call Mr. Fish an ovenrunner again. It seemed to get more people riled up;)
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Originally posted by Lance
:::chuckles::: Why doncha call Mr. Fish an ovenrunner again. It seemed to get more people riled up;)
hehe I didn't call him that you did!
Lance - "Oh my, we now have the jew lova and hte ovenrunna in the same squad!" :D
None of this is directed at him! I'm here looking for a fight, but I don't want to fight him....
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Well, when you die it doesn't matter how many die with you.
You still die.
And when you're 10 years old, Israeli or Palestinian, it's still a bit of a downer.
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UH HUH, Yeah Right....
We have nothing to hide.....
as long as we wonīt allow others to come and look for it.
Israel fears forced UN inquiry if Annan disbands Jenin team
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158249&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
Why the fear? I thought we had nothing to hide
We all know that the IDF operates on the highest standards but...
Dishonorable conduct in war
While the government is conducting a difficult campaign to guarantee that the IDF's good name will not be besmirched by a UN investigation of the events at the Jenin refugee camp, it turns out that some IDF soldiers brought shame on themselves, and the army, through acts of vandalism and, in some cases, looting during Operation Defensive Shield.
http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158010&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=158010
BTW I never picked a side in this conflict, you did. You seem to be able to swallow and justify some crimes as long as they fit your naive-primitive-Far West-simpleton-axis-of-evil views, while I find any crime unjustifiable. I fail to see how killing someone with explosives strapped to yourself is worse than burying him under debris with a 'dozer or shooting him through his home door just in case
On the Arafat thing... he has commited enough errors to deserve retirement now. His time in history went away, but the stupid mantra of helding him directly responsible of every suicide bomber and the idea that he can stop them with a pair of phone calls can only convince Dumbya-level and lower IQs.
OTOH Sharon is directly responsible for every palestinian civilian killed in IDF operations, as there is a clear chain of command which dictates targets and rules of engagement in violation of international law.
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UH HUH, Yeah Right....
We have nothing to hide.....
as long as we wonīt allow others to come and look for it.
Israel fears forced UN inquiry if Annan disbands Jenin team
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158249&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
Why the fear? I thought we had nothing to hide
We all know that the IDF operates on the highest standards but...
Dishonorable conduct in war
While the government is conducting a difficult campaign to guarantee that the IDF's good name will not be besmirched by a UN investigation of the events at the Jenin refugee camp, it turns out that some IDF soldiers brought shame on themselves, and the army, through acts of vandalism and, in some cases, looting during Operation Defensive Shield.
http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=158010&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=158010
BTW I never picked a side in this conflict, you did. You seem to be able to swallow and justify some crimes as long as they fit your naive-primitive-Far West-simpleton-axis-of-evil views, while I find any crime unjustifiable. I fail to see how killing someone with explosives strapped to yourself is worse than burying him under debris with a 'dozer or shooting him through his home door just in case
On the Arafat thing... he has commited enough errors to deserve retirement now. His time in history went away, but the stupid mantra of helding him directly responsible of every suicide bomber and the idea that he can stop them with a pair of phone calls can only convince Dumbya-level and lower IQs.
OTOH Sharon is directly responsible for every palestinian civilian killed in IDF operations, as there is a clear chain of command which dictates targets and rules of engagement in violation of international law.
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The pals vandalize their own cemeteries to dig up corpses,and dump them in mass graves.
I`m not easily shocked anymore,but this blows my mind.
WTF are these people thinking?
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This is great :D
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Dear Udie.
As one that came out on the side of those that wanted to find out what exactly happened in Jenin, I can only say that I am very pleased that it looks like it was a restrained opperation.
Your trolling on this board...however, has not been.
Too bad your life changing experience, dealing with the car accident, didn't last much more then a month. Thank you for providing this venue in which to say...hay you were right! I hope it makes you feel like a big man. After all the opinions of the people on this bbs, are very very important.
Have a nice day!
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Yea, right - by the grace of Israel he lives. They could have crushed him like the bug he is anytime...
"With our blood and our souls, we will redeem you, Abu Ammar," hundreds of Palestinians chanted, using Arafat's nom de guerre, as they thronged around him hours after Israeli forces completed their withdrawal from the presidential compound.
What a missed opportunity. He could have at that moment, made a move for peace with just a couple of sentences calling for restraint. Think Arafat would do that? Nope, just stood there with his fish face grin waving his V for victory sign around. And ppl really consider this clown a world leader???
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I think Sharon learnt the last time how far massacres will get him.
Instead, Israel inflicts a steady level of civilian casualties on the Palestinians in incidents like this:
Late Tuesday night in Rafah, where 20-month-old Huda Shaluf was killed, IDF forces, including a tank, responded to a large explosion on the road near the Rafah crossing, firing at the suspected bombers and killing one, while the other was arrested.
During the shooting, houses in the Shuka neighborhood about half a kilometer away, where the Shaluf family lives, were hit by four to six shells. The baby was killed in the house. Her father and mother, and four other members of the family, were wounded. An armored force then rolled into the neighborhood, and after it departed, the body of a 25-year-old deaf man was found, apparently crushed by a tank.
or this:
In another incident, on the West Bank, 11-year-old Abed Ismail was killed by an explosion in the center of the village of Artas, south of Bethlehem, near the police station. According to official Palestinian sources, the IDF had held the building for a number of days during Operation Defensive Shield, but left a few days ago. The IDF said it was not aware of the explosion that killed the boy.
The IDF occasionally leaves booby-traps behind in it's operations. Late last year a similar device killed 5 palestinian children near the Khan Younis refugee camp.
The difference is, I haven't seen anyone on this board actually support suicide bombings, but I have seen plenty here support Sharon, calling for the Palestinians to
be "crushed", "killed", "removed" etc.
Any of you Sharon supporters care to condemn the Israeli murders of innocent civilians, or the Israeli policy of colonizing Palestinian lands and ethnically cleansing the inhabitants that is causing all the fighting?
Any of you care to condemn the Israeli system of apartheid, with Israel just deciding to ban any politician or party from standing for election if they - explicitly or implicitly - deny the existence of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state? ie, calling for Israel to become a democracy with equal treatment, value and support for all religions means you can't be a member of the Israeli parliament. It isn't even the courts who get to decide who's banned, it's a committe of the Israeli parliament.
Any of you who say the US must support Israel because it is the only democracy in the area care to comment on that?
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Originally posted by Tac
36 people is a massacre?
What a bunch of softies.
Just imagine those people were americanīs.Are we talking massa
cre then?.
or those 16 people in Germany,they were not massacred either??.
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Udie....you are the man.
Dawvgrid, I figured someone would come out with something like that...
Here is the difference:
If the Israelis had taken 36 people, lined them up against a wall and executed them...THEN perhaps you could call it a massacre. Most of those people killed were armed terrorists killed in a miltary action. Unfortunately a few were civilians caught in a crossfire that resulted from Palestinian gunmen "holeing themselves up" in a civilian area in an effort to surround themselves with potential "cover" in the form of their OWN people.
Now...if 36 Americans were similarly lined up and executed...then yup, I would call it a massacre. In fact when over 4,000 Americans died in the WTC disaster I called THAT a massacre. But, if 36 Americans died in an action in Afganistan, for example, I would refer to them as casualties of war.
As with Udie I find it amusing that the majority of supporters of the Palestinians who were 'screaming blue murder' at the Jenin incident as first reported are now strangely silent.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I think Sharon learnt the last time how far massacres will get him.
Instead, Israel inflicts a steady level of civilian casualties on the Palestinians in incidents like this:
Late Tuesday night in Rafah, where 20-month-old Huda Shaluf was killed, IDF forces, including a tank, responded to a large explosion on the road near the Rafah crossing, firing at the suspected bombers and killing one, while the other was arrested.
During the shooting, houses in the Shuka neighborhood about half a kilometer away, where the Shaluf family lives, were hit by four to six shells. The baby was killed in the house. Her father and mother, and four other members of the family, were wounded. An armored force then rolled into the neighborhood, and after it departed, the body of a 25-year-old deaf man was found, apparently crushed by a tank.
or this:
In another incident, on the West Bank, 11-year-old Abed Ismail was killed by an explosion in the center of the village of Artas, south of Bethlehem, near the police station. According to official Palestinian sources, the IDF had held the building for a number of days during Operation Defensive Shield, but left a few days ago. The IDF said it was not aware of the explosion that killed the boy.
The IDF occasionally leaves booby-traps behind in it's operations. Late last year a similar device killed 5 palestinian children near the Khan Younis refugee camp.
The difference is, I haven't seen anyone on this board actually support suicide bombings, but I have seen plenty here support Sharon, calling for the Palestinians to
be "crushed", "killed", "removed" etc.
Any of you Sharon supporters care to condemn the Israeli murders of innocent civilians, or the Israeli policy of colonizing Palestinian lands and ethnically cleansing the inhabitants that is causing all the fighting?
Any of you care to condemn the Israeli system of apartheid, with Israel just deciding to ban any politician or party from standing for election if they - explicitly or implicitly - deny the existence of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state? ie, calling for Israel to become a democracy with equal treatment, value and support for all religions means you can't be a member of the Israeli parliament. It isn't even the courts who get to decide who's banned, it's a committe of the Israeli parliament.
Any of you who say the US must support Israel because it is the only democracy in the area care to comment on that?
Ummm...perhaps you should wait until the "real" story behind these supposed incidents comes out before parroting another new source.
This is precisely the kind of knee jerk reaction that prompted this thread.
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:::chuckles::: It wasn't ovenrunner? Was it nazi? I could have sworn I saw a righteous BBS fight between you two in here that ended with you appologizing for calling him something to that effect. I must be dreaming things. Guess I need to lay off the sauce! :D
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hehe ya gotta love it. Come out and post something truethful and the personal attacks start flying from those who support the murderers. I musta hit a nerve :D
On all the boards I posted this, except one, I was the victom of personal attacks :D
Thrawn,
Did you get to see your glorious freedom fighter leader on tv this morning. He was victorious in his fight agains the evil jews! :rolleyes:
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36 people is a massacre?
Tac`s point was,as I undestood it ,,,"only 36 palestinians died,,you can`t call that a massacre".Or please explain.
And I do not support any of the involved parts in this"neverending
story",,,,out. going home from work
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Curval you qouted nashwan on those incidents but in your opinion he shouldn't until the "real" story is known? I read that same piece on CNN (about the roadside bomb).
I'd be glad to listen to some official explanation but that will never happen cause Isreal will simply pull the "everyone's biased against us" squeak card and won't let any UN function investigate Jenin or anything else for that matter.
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0
Curval you qouted nashwan on those incidents but in your opinion he shouldn't until the "real" story is known? I read that same piece on CNN (about the roadside bomb).
I'd be glad to listen to some official explanation but that will never happen cause Isreal will simply pull the "everyone's biased against us" squeak card and won't let any UN function investigate Jenin or anything else for that matter.
Ahh CNN, yes, sorry they are always right........NOT
Listen, I was watching the BBC World Service the other day. I consider them to be the best news source as CNN is more like a tabloid than a real news operation. Even the BBC are falling for this "poor Palestinian's being massacred" crap....they had four stories on the Jenin masacre followed by a short piece about how the Palestininian children are being brain-washed and manipulated by the radical elements. Fact is...everyone will remember the Jenin stories (which were full of misinformation) and the one item that gave an indication of Palestinian wrongdoing will be forgotten...merely because it wasn't the lead-story.
The Israelis WILL allow the UN to investigate Jenin...they just want military and anti-terrorism experts to join in the investigation. Why? Because they want an ACCURATE report...not some uneducated UN cronies OPINION. They, like yourself, have been so influenced by CNN etc that they cannot form an unbias accurate account of what happened.
Please get your facts right.
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I'm sry, I should of consulted on which news organization to get the "facts" & "truth". The BBC is nice but like CNN I wouldn't hold it is my only source that's for sure.
Get my facts straight? Pfft, you and Udie both have no more facts than anyone else on this dam board.
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The very fact that Israel is not letting the UN group in reveals that they do have something to hide.
What could the group find if there was nothing to find?
Martti Ahtisaari, the leader of the UN group is a close relative of mine and I know for a fact he's not biased one way or the other.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The very fact that Israel is not letting the UN group in reveals that they do have something to hide.
What could the group find if there was nothing to find?
Martti Ahtisaari, the leader of the UN group is a close relative of mine and I know for a fact he's not biased one way or the other.
Bullcrap. There was not one military expert on the whole team. All civilians. That's what Isreal is objecting to. So instead of making a ballance investigation team kofi anus disbands the team. You know this way they can perpetuate the Jenin lies for a long time. What a squealing farce. But by all means just ignore the palestinian official who backs up Isreal's claims and who even goes as far to admit that some of the civilians were killed by palestinian booby traps.
There is one side in this conflict that wants the other side dead. There is another side in this conflict that has had the power (for years) to totaly destroy the other side. Isreal has chosen not to destroy the pals and to deal with arafat on many many many occassions. Each and every time arafat has broken his word and killed more Isreali civilians, each and every time what's so squealing hard to understand about that? Do you think for a second that if arafat had what Isreal has that there would still be Jews in Isreal? Their bodies would be there, but lifeless.
The UN mission was to pin "yet another massacre" on Isreal, when Isreal has in actuality committed NO massacres. They always act in self defence. You can sit there and ignore all the facts of the past 50 years but I wont. As soon as Isreal said to the UN that the fact finding team must be ballanced the UN cancels the investigation. What a squealing HUGE joke the sad part is that so many people around the world still buy into this type of tactic.
Arafat is free now, I'd be willing to bet that the homicide bombings start up again within a week or 2.
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(small-sounding voice from under the refergerator) Well, I don't know about you humans, but us cockroaches eat a lot better when there's a war going on.
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Now it's a UN conspiracy against the jews! Granted that at one time or another everyone in the world has tried doing away with them, but even the US backed this team to go in.
Let me guess Udie, the UN is out to take over America too.
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Arafat is free now, I'd be willing to bet that the homicide bombings start up again within a week or 2.
Maybe so.Or maybe an israelic soldier accidently hit some innocent palistinien,who just got in the way.
Or maybe their isn`t any innocent Palistiniens?,,,they are all bloodthirsty bastards??.
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Not wanting to piss all over your bonfire of all knowing enlightenment, Udie, but this constant 'the UN is biased' whine is a little tiresome. For one thing, a UN resolution created Israel in the first place. Or does your knowledge not stretch that far back in time?
Now, the Jenin action was condemned by Israel's staunchest ally, the US. Yet you still insist Israel was in the right?
In reference to the 'military advisors' - why do you need them to count bodies? I think it was more a question of Israel snubbing the UN at any cost, over the slightest issue.
Finally, what you singly fail to understand, Udie, is that Israel has to tread carefully in respect to US opinion. It can't go in hard (although I'm sure people like Sharon would be positively orgasmic at the prospect), because that would upset the US and Israel relies on the US for its existence. Consequently, nuking the West Bank would be a bad move.
Instead it pursues a course of settlement and containment to achieve lebensraum.
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Oh you can Kadoura Mousa me anytime baby!!!
Say Undie, you goin' to the Reverend Moon's mass wedding?
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In public, what else are they suppose to say if they ever want Arab support on anything?
"Yet you still insist Israel was in the right?"
Yes, I do. Who are we to say what is right for their country. It seems to have stopped the bombing, for now. If the bombing starts up, they have the right to go back in and stomp some more Pal arse.
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Originally posted by Eagler
In public, what else are they suppose to say if they ever want Arab support on anything?
Chimpy panders to who/whatever gives him the most political or financial capital....a great president isn't he? :rolleyes:
The biggest part of him ran down his mommas leg.
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Originally posted by Eagler
"Yet you still insist Israel was in the right?"
Yes, I do. Who are we to say what is right for their country. It seems to have stopped the bombing, for now. If the bombing starts up, they have the right to go back in and stomp some more Pal arse.
Eagler,
You can't bring facts into the argument. Well unless you want to be insulted you can't. The terrorist/murderer supporters hate it when you do that! The facts must be ignored!!
Anybody see arafat's rant last night? That dude is in some bad shape. Maybe we'll get lucky and his parkensans (sp?) will cure the problem for us.
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Originally posted by Tac
36 people is a massacre?
What a bunch of softies.
naaa its only joke like 11 sep
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Originally posted by Udie
You can't bring facts into the argument. Well unless you want to be insulted you can't.
I'm sry, I could of swore your first post was meant to insult and incite some folks to your post. I'll go back and read it again as I obviously missed the original intent. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Dowding
Not wanting to piss all over your bonfire of all knowing enlightenment, Udie, but this constant 'the UN is biased' whine is a little tiresome. For one thing, a UN resolution created Israel in the first place. Or does your knowledge not stretch that far back in time?
Answer: Yes..they created the MODERN State of Israel...the nation of Israel existed long before the UN, or any Western nation.
And why did the UN do this? Because THE WORLD finally recognised the need after the Second World War.
Now, the Jenin action was condemned by Israel's staunchest ally, the US. Yet you still insist Israel was in the right?
Answer: The US condemed it because it was thought to be a massacre of hundreds, as "reported" by Arafats spin doctors.
In reference to the 'military advisors' - why do you need them to count bodies? I think it was more a question of Israel snubbing the UN at any cost, over the slightest issue.
Answer: Clearly the Palestinians can't count. What makes you think the UN can do any better?
As far as your second comment goes...why is it that the Palestininans do not have their own country right now? Becuase the Palestininans have rejected "out of hand" every offer that they have been given. Why? Becuase that would end the conflict...and certain elements in their support base will simply not give in until Israel is destroyed.
Finally, what you singly fail to understand, Udie, is that Israel has to tread carefully in respect to US opinion. It can't go in hard (although I'm sure people like Sharon would be positively orgasmic at the prospect), because that would upset the US and Israel relies on the US for its existence. Consequently, nuking the West Bank would be a bad move.
Answer: eeeeks...you were doing so well here...until....
Instead it pursues a course of settlement and containment to achieve lebensraum.
Answer: THIS...
The use of this term is sickening in refernce to Israel. It is both unfair and frankly disgusting. That term was used to justify the Nazi invasion of Eastern Europe and it's use here is simply a blantant attempt to antagonise.
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Curval,
The only state of Isreal that matters at the moment is the "Modern" one that he was referring to.
I'll join with Udie at this juncture that the UN probably created it there with all those hostile neighbors in some ironic attempt to actually get rid of them. (tongue in cheek)
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Udie you seem to have first hand information that the UN team was biased and its sole purpose was to condemn Israels actions.
Could you tell us the source and did it possibly come from some of the teammembers?
I always thought they were supposed to go there and assess what really happened, since nobody was really allowed to go there to see it themselves.
You are paranoid and btw, wrong too Udie.
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Curval, the only one of the incidents I posted that's in doubt is wether an IDF booby-trap killed the boy. The baby killed when tank shells hit his house has been reported in the Israeli press.
The 5 children killed by the IDF booby-trap is old news, and can be found on independant news sites.
Still don't seem to be many Sharon supporters willing to denounce colonization and ethnic cleansing, do there?
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0
Curval,
The only state of Isreal that matters at the moment is the "Modern" one that he was referring to.
I'll join with Udie at this juncture that the UN probably created it there with all those hostile neighbors in some ironic attempt to actually get rid of them. (tongue in cheek)
WRONG WRONG WRONG...
The fact is that you cannot talk about one without the other.
The UN resolved to put Israel where it is today because that is where Jews actually come from. Do you even realise that Arabs and Jews are Semites....they share the same racial distinction. That is BECAUSE they originate from the same area.
The fact is that Arabs and Jews have lived in that part of the world for centuries...but somehow the Jews ended up scattered all around the world. Wanna guess why? I'll give you a hint....when looking at the problems between Israel and the Arabs you must look back a few (tongue in cheek) years BEFORE the modern State of Israel was formed.
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(small bug-like voice from under the referergerator) I like it when humans get blown up cause it makes them bite-sized.
-The Cockroach
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The very fact that Israel is not letting the UN group in reveals that they do have something to hide.
What could the group find if there was nothing to find?
Martti Ahtisaari, the leader of the UN group is a close relative of mine and I know for a fact he's not biased one way or the other.
Please...I don't care who you are related to...frankly if this guy is a relative of yours I certainly hope he doesn't have YOUR attitudes...'cause if he does.....ummm I think you have made the point for me.
The Group (as you call it) could find a bunch of bodies dug up from another grave site...for one thing. A military expert might well be able to determine that this has occurred, whereas your relative would simply be shocked and horrified that the Israelis could massacre such "innocents".
It is not a question of "hiding" anything...it is a queston of being careful not to DISTORT the truth. Given that the "hundreds" have now been shown to be in the "tens" I think that concern is justified.
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I know very well they lived their once but really it's just a cloud of crap used for one side to use against the other and visa-versa.
Seriously, should the Indians have a right to America cause they once owned it?
Ok can we settle upon a different type of agreement? Build a HUGE freakin wall around the middle east, Leave the Jews, and the Muslims to go at it then throw in the Christians to help stir the pot? Not a pretty picture but just my way of helping my fellow man find their way to their heaven. :D
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Originally posted by Eaglecz
naaa its only joke like 11 sep
Hey Orel
out of the 36 or 56 whatever the number is dead in Jenin, how many of em were bomber makers or wannabe bombing murders
now out of the 3000 that died in the WTC, how many ever killed/ thought about killing or planned to kill Arabs in the near or distant future ???
I got your joke buddy, right here ...
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Originally posted by Eagler
Hey Orel
out of the 36 or 56 whatever the number is dead in Jenin, how many of em were bomber makers or wannabe bombing murders
now out of the 3000 that died in the WTC, how many ever killed/ thought about killing or planned to kill Arabs in the near or distant future ???
Isn't your point mute since that's 3056 people that can't answer about their feelings toward 1 ethnic group or another?
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0
I know very well they lived their once but really it's just a cloud of crap used for one side to use against the other and visa-versa.
Seriously, should the Indians have a right to America cause they once owned it?
Ok can we settle upon a different type of agreement? Build a HUGE freakin wall around the middle east, Leave the Jews, and the Muslims to go at it then throw in the Christians to help stir the pot? Not a pretty picture but just my way of helping my fellow man find their way to their heaven. :D
They lived there once? Try a few millenia....(and generally under the Arab "boot-heel" up until the UN established the modern State.)
The Jews and the Indians have alot in common actually..in terms of a holocaust....and without attempting to hijack this thread I firmly believe that out of ANY race in the US the Indians deserve to be compensated for their loss. What happened to the Indians is something that "civilized" society in the United States will forever be stained by and should be ashamed of.
and btw...can you translate your signature for me? I don't speak German.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Hey Orel
out of the 36 or 56 whatever the number is dead in Jenin, how many of em were bomber makers or wannabe bombing murders
Good question, please tell us.
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Curval,
It says, Do sober what you'd say you'd do drunk. It'll teach you to keep your mouth shut. Off the top of my head I believe I found that attributed to Hemmingway but can't say exactly.
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And why did the UN do this? Because THE WORLD finally recognised the need after the Second World War.
Hmmm...and this contradicts my point about the UN creating Israel in what way exactly?
The US condemed it because it was thought to be a massacre of hundreds, as "reported" by Arafats spin doctors.
Rubbish. The US condemned it because it can see exactly where this thing is going to lead. It was simply the next installment in the circle of violence. Israel goes in hard and is satisfied it has smited its enemies. Palestinian suicide bombers are recruited in greater numbers. Another bombing. More Israeli retaliation. More suicide bombers. More Israeli retaliation. More suicide bombers. More Israeli retaliation.
Ad nauseum and infinatum.
Surely this is the most obvious thing in the world?
Clearly the Palestinians can't count. What makes you think the UN can do any better?
So the Palestinians are biased. All the more reason to go outside the region (that means above the Israelis too) and use a global body like the... err... the UN!
Fancy that!
Becuase the Palestininans have rejected "out of hand" every offer that they have been given.
Read Nashwan's posts on the most recent (and best) offer afforded by the Israelis. Even a cursory glance shows how unacceptable the offer was to anyone wanting self-determination. You wouldn't accept it. I wouldn't accept it. Why should the Palestinians?
...and certain elements in their support base will simply not give in until Israel is destroyed.
That's true. But there are certain elements in Northen Ireland that would want every Protestant or Catholic crucified, but strangely you don't tend to see that sort of thing happening.
There are radicals in every ethnic group. But the majority tends to just get on with their lives, and provided they have the means to do that, they will. Radicals get support in times of hardship and suffering - the rise of Hitler is testament to that.
Give the Palestinians something approaching self-determination (including control of natural resources like water - something not allowed in the last peace deal), and the radicals will return to the fringe.
The use of this term is sickening in refernce to Israel. It is both unfair and frankly disgusting. That term was used to justify the Nazi invasion of Eastern Europe...
I think it is spot on.
Lebensraum:
"Meaning "living space," it was a basic principle of Nazi foreign policy. Hitler believed that eastern Europe had to be conquered to create a vast German empire for more physical space, a greater population, and new territory to supply food and raw materials. "
Implant Israel into the equation and I think it fits very well.
...and it's use here is simply a blantant attempt to antagonise. [
And you complain of this, given the nature of the thread and Udie's comments all the way through. lol!
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The UN team that was supposed to investigate Jenin did have military advisers with them, including a retired US general.
The fact is that Arabs and Jews have lived in that part of the world for centuries...but somehow the Jews ended up scattered all around the world. Wanna guess why? I'll give you a hint....when looking at the problems between Israel and the Arabs you must look back a few (tongue in cheek) years BEFORE the modern State of Israel was formed.
The Jews were scattered by the Romans, not the Arabs. The Jews that were left in Palestine sided with the Arabs during the crusades, not suprising when the Crusaders killed so many Jews.
I'm really disapointed that none of the enlightened on this thread are prepared to condemn colonization, although at least some seem to get upset if a German term is used to describe it.
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thrawn/wingnut
it was a larger percentage for sure in Jenin than NYC
but the facts don't seem to matter
Given the same military might, what do you think your pals the PALs would have done to Tel Aviv or Haifa? Think there'd been dancing in the PAL streets? Is there any dancing in the Israeli streets??
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Originally posted by Dowding
And you complain of this, given the nature of the thread and Udie's comments all the way through. lol!
Equating Nazi tactics with Israel in any way I personally find offensive, yes.
Edit due to addressing wrong person:
Nashwan:
As to your surprise that no-one wants to denounce colonialism..I think that is because there is no colonial element to what we are discussing. You are so wrapped up in thinking that Israel is trying to "take over" land that you have lost sight of the fact that they are protecting themselves. Israel keeps leaving the areas that it took over. They do so because they have to go in to root out the terrorists and then once that is done they leave. I see no colonialsm in that.
Plus...you are talking to the wrong guy. Hell, I AM a colonial...I live in my own country, but under Bristish colonial rule. Best damn thing that could have happened to us too. If the Brits leave us to independence the whole place will go down the drain, much like what happened in Jamaca.
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Originally posted by Eagler
thrawn/wingnut
it was a larger percentage for sure in Jenin than NYC
but the facts don't seem to matter
Given the same military might, what do you think your pals the PALs would have done to Tel Aviv or Haifa? Think there'd been dancing in the PAL streets? Is there any dancing in the Israeli streets??
I don't favor the "Pals" approach, I'd think it much more intelligent to blow up military targets and since I didn't have an army, I would rethink loosing a supporter on every attack.
So no their not my Pals.....
And why the NYC reference Eagler? Personally from what I've seen of your comments here and there I only see you supporting Isreal so much because of those "Evil" arabs. So that allows ppl to overlook any wrong doing that Isreal has/may have/or will do in the future. Just like alot of ppl are in denial that alot of US decisions lead to the feelings that convinced several ppl to hijack some planes and kill innocent ppl.
I'll have to elaborate later as I'm started to get hammered at work.
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Equating Nazi tactics with Israel in any way I personally find offensive, yes.
Oh come on. It's not a Nazi tactic. It's been happening for millenia. Ever since Tribe A took a fancy to Tribe B's banana trees.
I call it as I see it.
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Curval and what exactly is my attitude?
I'm suspicious because they cover things up, just like any other reasonably thinking adult would be. And the rest of the world for that matter.
What goes for M.A. you dont seem to have any clue of his extensive work in solving big crisis situation between countries, or the work he has done with war crimes commission etc. He is not a blue-eyed civillian, and the evaluations will be based on the findings of the criminal pathologist who can determine the cause of death and time as accurately as any military personnel. If not even more accurately.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Curval and what exactly is my attitude?
I'm suspicious because they cover things up, just like any other reasonably thinking adult would be. And the rest of the world for that matter.
What goes for M.A. you dont seem to have any clue of his extensive work in solving big crisis situation between countries, or the work he has done with war crimes commission etc. He is not a blue-eyed civillian, and the evaluations will be based on the findings of the criminal pathologist who can determine the cause of death and time as accurately as any military personnel. If not even more accurately.
So can he tell the diference between an ak47 wound or a wound from what ever gun IDF uses? can he tell the diference between a tank round crater and the crater left by a terrorist bomb? Can he tell the diference between a tank tread mark and a bulldozer tread mark?
You don't think that Isreal could possibly be truethful when they say they only want a more ballanced team? Why wouldn't koki anus do that? Why did he just cancel it all together? hmm?
Keep on excusing the terrorist murderers. Time will come, soon I hope, that you will really have to chose sides. Don't forget your beloved palestinians have supported our enemies for the past 50 years. Don't forget who danced in the streets on 9/11. Don't forget who has called and still calls for the total destruction of the other. Don't forget who's side they were on in the gulf war. Don't forget all the lies arafat has told, don't forget all the "peace" deals arabfoot er... arafat has broken.
Good God all mighty they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize :(
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Udie read again: I said the expert team of criminal pathologists and other experts will assess the course of action there. He is just the guy calling the shots and negotiating with the sides.
Youre just not wanting to stop and think for a second.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Curval and what exactly is my attitude?
I'm suspicious because they cover things up, just like any other reasonably thinking adult would be. And the rest of the world for that matter.
What goes for M.A. you dont seem to have any clue of his extensive work in solving big crisis situation between countries, or the work he has done with war crimes commission etc. He is not a blue-eyed civillian, and the evaluations will be based on the findings of the criminal pathologist who can determine the cause of death and time as accurately as any military personnel. If not even more accurately.
You seem to be suspicious of Israel, yet Curval is suspicious of the Palestinians, isn't that pretty obvious?
Of course he doesn't "know" your relative but,you asked for it after dropping names like that IMO. Is this guy as suspicious of Israel as you are, or does he favor Curval's point of view? Or, is he an unemotional robot?
The UN is not some sort of "demi-God". It is an organisation comprised of human beings who have bias and prejudices and just like the rest of us they are mere mortals.
This is precisely why such an organisation can favour one approach at a given time (such as the creation of Israel after WW2) and potentially favour another point of view years later after the situation "they caused" has developed over time.
And lets face it. We are talking about an organisation that is supposed to be an independent representation of a collection of nations who are totally "involved" in the world politics of the day. But, it has become a political entity in its own right. I find myself concerned about the politics involved in the operation of the UN!
I have a vague memory of another such organisation. It was called The League of Nations.
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So can he tell the diference between an ak47 wound or a wound from what ever gun IDF uses? can he tell the diference between a tank round crater and the crater left by a terrorist bomb? Can he tell the diference between a tank tread mark and a bulldozer tread mark?
Ex-US army generals aren't good enough for you? Because they weren't good enough for the Israelis. And discerning AK-47 bullet wounds from those administered by US made weapons might have been bread and butter to the US part of the team.
A team endorsed by the US, I might add. What are your thoughts on that?
BTW, the Israelis used tanks and bulldozers, so that's pretty irrelevant too.
You don't think that Isreal could possibly be truethful when they say they only want a more ballanced team?
OK. What is this 'more balanced team' you know so much about? I'm curious.
...arabfoot er... arafat
Erm...how long did it take you to come up with that one?
Or this one:
koki anus
Lame doesn't really cover it, I'm afraid.
"Must try harder"
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As to your surprise that no-one wants to denounce colonialism..I think that is because there is no colonial element to what we are discussing. You are so wrapped up in thinking that Israel is trying to "take over" land that you have lost sight of the fact that they are protecting themselves. Israel keeps leaving the areas that it took over. They do so because they have to go in to root out the terrorists and then once that is done they leave. I see no colonialsm in that.
Sharon gave approval to three new settlements last week.
This is a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It's a couple of years old, so there will be a few more now. It also shows the proposed area of the Palestinian "state" Barak offered:
(http://www.poica.org/maps/final-status.gif)
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Bush might have to send in the Big Dawg..
That [SIZE=8]Bill KliNToOn[/SIZE] charactor..
They'll say he's going over as a privite citizen but we all know he would be asked by BushDaddy
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Originally posted by Dowding
Oh come on. It's not a Nazi tactic. It's been happening for millenia. Ever since Tribe A took a fancy to Tribe B's banana trees.
I call it as I see it.
Give me a break. You used that term for a reason, and it wasn't because it is some sort of common usage form of "We want what you got".
You gave a very good description of what it actually meant.
Love to play poker with you sometime. I bet you scratch your face when you have a good hand or something like that.
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Just to set things straight..
I DO NOT approve the palestinians approach to the problem. By committing terrorism they got what they asked from Israel.
I'm sure that both sides committed crimes in this conflict and in the end I hold the acts of the palestinians more criminating.
Still its a historical fact that Israel was created of the land taken from the palestinians and I understand fully where their anger comes from. However I feel detested with all the terrorist acts, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on a terrorist anytime.
OTOH by allegedly committing warcrimes themselves (which hasn't been proved yet or proved wrong thanks to the Isreal government) they have lost my support also. So I now do not support either side of the conflict. I hold them both in contempt untill they let a non-biased group in to clear their name or prove them guilty.
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Keep on excusing the terrorist murderers.
The only people I see excusing murderers on this thread are the Israeli supporters, who cheer on Sharon who was murdering people in terrorist attacks long before the PLO was established.
You don't think that Isreal could possibly be truethful when they say they only want a more ballanced team?
The team already included several military members, as I said including a retired US major-general, William Nash.
The main sticking point is that Israel has been insisting that it's soldiers and politicians be exempt from any war-crimes charges resulting from the investigation, rather an odd precondition if they have nothing to hide.
A British major, in the camp as a military adviser to Amnesty International, said that there had been no massacre, but evidence of wanton destruction after the battle was over, in revenge for the Israeli military casualties.
Human Rights Watch also say no evidence of a massacre, but say they have identified 22 civilian bodies so far.
I think the Israeli government is most concerned about it's descision to cut off food and water to Jenin for some time after the fighting, and it's descision to prevent medical and humanitarian aid from reaching Jenin for 9 days after the fighting, both of which fall under the definition of war crimes. The fact that it was 9 days before the wounded could get medical attention undoubtedly cost civilian lives, and for no obvious reason.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I think the Israeli government is most concerned about it's descision to cut off food and water to Jenin for some time after the fighting, and it's descision to prevent medical and humanitarian aid from reaching Jenin for 9 days after the fighting, both of which fall under the definition of war crimes. The fact that it was 9 days before the wounded could get medical attention undoubtedly cost civilian lives, and for no obvious reason.
(small bug-like voice from under the referergerator) And what a wonderful 9 days it was too! We feasted every night on the non-massacred-but-killed-in-a-battle-against-a-tank-and-a-rock-throwing-dead-dude. Hey, you call it a massacre, a battle, a war, whatever- I call it dinner. Now do me a favor and use a few nukes over here. The damn Rats are breeding like Bill Clinton in an Arkansas trailer park and they're eating my fellow roaches like we're old shrimp hor de vores at a Lesbian convention.
-The Cockroach
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Arafat, citing the suffering of Palestinians and their resistance to IDF troops during the recent Israeli offensive in the West Bank, said that Jenin, site of the fiercest fighting, would now be called Jeningrad, a reference to the bloody Nazi siege of the Soviet city of Stalingrad during the Second World War.
LOL
I tought the defenders in Stalingrad won,and in Jenin the defenders got their bellybutton kicked.
Keep digging up your cemeteris Yasser...
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elfie, don't bogart all the cheese.
hey, yassar is a loser.. we all knew that. udie, you bonehaid; yah don't have to be pro PLO to be annoyed with israel's happy-horsehit foriegn and domestic policys.
bluntly: arafats a pinheaded nickle bag terrorist troutwad, but sharon's no keeper either... and we (america) ain't the brightest bulbs in the chandiler for forkin over 14 mil a day in aid to his rapacious government... you know the one that's sittin there one hand out, beggin our free unencumbered aid and, with the other; illegally selling out our military tech to hostile governments.
The UN? hell, yes; send in the fediddlein UN. Lets watch the UN teams get some evidence on both sides, and we can all meet over lunch in the hauge.
but cut off the israeli cash handouts, first.
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war crimes :rolleyes:
isn't strapping a bomb on your arse and blowing up women and children a war crime?
OR can only Israel commit a "war crime" in the eyes of these terrorist sympathizers??
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Sharon gave approval to three new settlements last week.
This is a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It's a couple of years old, so there will be a few more now. It also shows the proposed area of the Palestinian "state" Barak offered:
(http://www.poica.org/maps/final-status.gif)
When I said that colonialism isn't what we are talking about "here"...I was referring to the topic of the thread...Jenin
But...now that you have brought it up...
What a very pretty map you have provided. But, correct me if I am wrong...isn't that a map of ISRAEL? Just who is colonising who? I don't see any Palestinian land in Jordan or Syria...why not?
Also, providing ONE map with ONE final proposal of ONE attempt to solve the land debate isn't exactly the "be all and end all" of the debate.
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No, that's a map of the West Bank.
It's not recognized as part of Israel by the UN, the US, Britain, or any major countries. Not even Israel officialy recognizes the West Bank as part of Israel.
The reason Israel doesn't claim it's part of Israel is because Israel is still, just about, a democracy. The West Bank has a population of several million Arabs, who don't have any vote because the West Bank is occupied territory. If the West Bank were to be made part of Israel, there couldn't be ay excuse for not giving the Arabs there the vote, as they were after all born there (or in Israel proper)
The current Arab/Jew population divide in the area of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is 53% Jewish, 47% Arab, with the Arab population growing faster.
That's what the whole issue is about, Israel wants the land without the Arabs who live there. Hence the very convoluted maps, trying to carve out territory whilst excluding arab population centres where possible.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
No, that's a map of the West Bank.
Israel wants the land without the Arabs who live there. Hence the very convoluted maps, trying to carve out territory whilst excluding arab population centres where possible.
Okay...so the West Bank is neither Palestinian, nor is it Israeli...by your own admission.
So logically both sides are trying to colonise this region.
Your comment above, though, suddenly states that Israel wants the land "without" the Arabs there...yet YOUR map clearly shows that Israel recognises Palestinian control over areas in the West Bank...and that under this particular plan Arabs would be living in those controlled regions.
Which is it?
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Okay...so the West Bank is neither Palestinian, nor is it Israeli...by your own admission.
So logically both sides are trying to colonise this region.
That's bizarre. The West Bank is populated by Palestinians, occupied by the Israeli army.
col·o·nize Pronunciation Key (kl-nz)
v. col·o·nized, col·o·niz·ing, col·o·niz·es
v. tr.
1. To form or establish a colony or colonies in.
2. To migrate to and settle in; occupy as a colony.
3. To resettle or confine (persons) in or as if in a colony.
4. To subjugate (a population) to or as if to a colonial government
The Palestinians live in this territory, and have for generations. The Israeli settlers do not, most attracted in from America and Europe by cheap land and tax breaks. Thereis no possible way of twisting the facts to show the Palestinians are settling the West Bank.
It's sort of like saying black South Africans were colonists for trying to get political power. They are the indigenous population, just like the Palestinians are.
Your comment above, though, suddenly states that Israel wants the land "without" the Arabs there...yet YOUR map clearly shows that Israel recognises Palestinian control over areas in the West Bank...and that under this particular plan Arabs would be living in those controlled regions.
Which is it?
Israel cannot wish the Palestinians away. They cannot deport several million people, the bulk of Israelis are against it, the rest of the world certainly would be, and none of Israel's neighbours would take them in anyway.
Israel is drawing up borders to accomodate as much land as possible with as few Palestinians as possible. A few hundred thousand extra Palestinians don't matter, they are too few in number to have any political power. Several million do matter, they equal the Jewish population, and very soon Israel would no longer be a Jewish state.
The borders in that map are an attempt to expand the territory of Israel, whilst giving the Palestinians limited self government over the remainder. Israel would still have overall control, critically Israel would retain control of all water sources. In other words, Israel gets good land, water to irrigate it, and the Palestinians are pushed off into homelands, similar to the ones South Africa tried to set up for it's indigenous populations.
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Okay...back to the old debate of whose land it is.
It is always so convienient to state that the Palestinians are the indiginous population of this area. Fact is the Jews have been there as long as they have...tax breaks etc. is simply a cop out Nashwan. Read your bible for heavens sake!
Don't the Palestinians actually "come from" Jordan?
If you really want to "split hairs" it is basically IMPOSSIBLE to determine where the Palestinians/Arabs come from. They have historically been a nomadic people, who move from area to area - essentailly they colonized an area for short durations of time and then moved on to another. Permanent settlements is a relatively recent concept for them in terms of the history of the entire region.
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It is always so convienient to state that the Palestinians are the indiginous population of this area. Fact is the Jews have been there as long as they have...tax breaks etc. is simply a cop out Nashwan. Read your bible for heavens sake!
The Jews were largely scattered and expelled by the Romans.
The Crusaders massacred Jews wholesale, and banned them from Jerusalem. By the time of the Turkish conquest of Palestine, there were few Jews left.
The first accurate census ever taken in the area in modern times was the British census of 1922. It recorded a population of:
Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890
Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794
Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024
Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028
Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163
Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265
Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156
Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454
Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408
That's after 2 decades of Jewish immigration.
In 1948, the UN partition plan sepperated the land into two countries, with an area for the Palestinians, and one for the Israelis. Since that time, Israel has expanded greatly, absorbed many areas that were allocated to the Palestinians. The West Bank and Gaza are all that is left of the Palestinian areas, and Israel is actively colonising them.
Palestinians who can prove they were bon in Israel are not allowed to return, and those that can prove they owned land in Israel are not entitled to claim it, it is held by the Israeli state.
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Okay...show me a census of the area from 2000 BC and then we can talk.
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It is always so convienient to state that the Palestinians are the indiginous population of this area. Fact is the Jews have been there as long as they have...tax breaks etc. is simply a cop out Nashwan. Read your bible for heavens sake!
Go here, a settler organisation, and it tells you when the settlements were founded.
http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/yishsort.htm
The oldes was founded 1946, the next oldest 1967, a couple in 68, and then lots from 1970 onwards.
Okay...show me a census of the area from 2000 BC and then we can talk
I could provide proof it was a part of the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, perhaps Italy could reclaim the area?
I could provide a Roman census of Britain from 2000 years ago, showing the country full of Celts with no Angles or Saxons, perhaps the Celts should kick the English out of England?
Perhaps the Arabs can reclaim Spain, unless the Visigoths turn up to assert their prior ownership, of course the Romans have a stronger claim still.
Silly, isn't it?
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Silly perhaps...
But you have stated that the Palestinians are the indigenous population of the West Bank/Israel..whatever...
I see nothing in what you have written that confirms this to me.
So what if this area was part of the Roman Empire in 2000BC?...I don't doubt it...every other race/populous has "had a go" at the Jews, why should the Romans be any different....what I was looking for was a population census of the region during those times. I don't know for a fact, but I have a feeling the figures will contradict your 1922 stats and show that there were probably very few ansestors of the current Palestinian population lived there.
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Nashwan,
Where was Ariel Sharon born?
Where was arafat born?
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What's the matter guys did I take the wind out of your sails?
Answer the questions....
Where was Ariel Sharon born?
Where was arafat born?
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Stupid nosense
Arafat was borned in Cairo from palestinian parents
Sharon was borned in Tel Aviv from russian parents
That's more or less a draw for your stupid quiz
And that was many years ago, in fact i think too many. They are a pair of silly old farts, canīt imagine why you have to love one of them so much
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Originally posted by takeda
Stupid nosense
Arafat was borned in Cairo from palestinian parents
Sharon was borned in Tel Aviv from russian parents
That's more or less a draw for your stupid quiz
And that was many years ago, in fact i think too many. They are a pair of silly old farts, canīt imagine why you have to love one of them so much
Well actually I don't love Sharon I just support him. But how ever many years ago it was the fact is that one person is FROM that country the other is from Egypt. One fights defending his land of birth, the other commits terrorist acts while claiming to be only trying to regain his homeland when his homeland is another country all together. It points out just another bit of hypocracy from arafat.
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sheesh the only thing good in this thread are Elfentard's posts.
You guys are never going to agree just like Side A and Side B in the West Bank aint never going to agree. All I know is that the doomsday clock is ticking.
I blame this entire frigging thing on religion. I say do away with all organized religions once and for all. HOW??? Tax the f*ckers. From here on it I'm worshiping the "great spirit", the sun god and perhaps Venus the godess of love.
So who wants to flame me first for my ungodly words?
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Originally posted by skernsk
sheesh the only thing good in this thread are Elfentard's posts.
You guys are never going to agree just like Side A and Side B in the West Bank aint never going to agree. All I know is that the doomsday clock is ticking.
I blame this entire frigging thing on religion. I say do away with all organized religions once and for all. HOW??? Tax the f*ckers. From here on it I'm worshiping the "great spirit", the sun god and perhaps Venus the godess of love.
So who wants to flame me first for my ungodly words?
I don't want to agree skerskie I want to fight! :D Put up yer dukes!
:D
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Originally posted by skernsk
sheesh the only thing good in this thread are Elfentard's posts.
..snip..
I blame this entire frigging thing on religion. I say do away with all organized religions once and for all. HOW??? Tax the f*ckers. From here on it I'm worshiping the "great spirit", the sun god and perhaps Venus the godess of love.
So who wants to flame me first for my ungodly words?
Where do I sign up? Do we get robes?
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FROM which country?
If you are stubborn enough to continue this nonsensical hair splitting, ok, those two were borned under the British Protectorate on parts of the former Ottoman Empire. Not in Israel or Palestine or whatever potential country that didnīt even exist then.
Arafatīs mother died when he was 4 and he went to live with her family in Jerusalem. I wonder if your friend Arik spoke just russian or had already grasped hebrew by then, but I really don't mind.
This matter is just the typical rubbish you can find on those moronic nazionist sites as masada2000 and such.
BTW another quiz for you... if an american airman has a baby while deployed at Incirclik or Ramstein, the boy is a Turk or a German?
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I vote to go back to greco-roman religion:
Toga parties
Half naked vestal virgin priestesses
Softcore porn soap opera stories starring very macho gods and damn good looking goddesses.
You like another different weird god, Mithra, Isis, egyptian stuff? Great, letīs make a place for him somewhere
:cool:
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Originally posted by Curval
The Israelis WILL allow the UN to investigate Jenin...they just want military and anti-terrorism experts to join in the investigation. Why? Because they want an ACCURATE report...not some uneducated UN cronies OPINION. They, like yourself, have been so influenced by CNN etc that they cannot form an unbias accurate account of what happened.
Please get your facts right.
Curval would it be okay if same criminal pathologists who was in Kosovo investigating bodies would be in that group?
Would you say his/her report would propably be accurate and not "influencd" by CNN news?
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btw I would think person who cuts bodies to pieces for his/her work would know more about wounds and what did cause them than most of officers/specialists in any army.
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Originally posted by Staga
Curval would it be okay if same criminal pathologists who was in Kosovo investigating bodies would be in that group?
Would you say his/her report would propably be accurate and not "influencd" by CNN news?
Whoa....whole new thread man.
But, now since "you" asked...
No. I would think that we need a whole new set of pathologists, quite frankly.
If I was one of those guys in Kosovo, examining bodies of brutally murdered Albanian people I might feel a great deal of anger towards those who were responsible. In this case that is the Yugoslavian government at the time.....the same people responsible for very real massacres of Musilms during the Bosnian conflict ashort time before. This will be their THIRD up close look at the consequences of anti-Musilm aggression. Need I continue?
We ARE splitting hairs right?
Also...I am a bit concerned that when everything "comes out in the wash" at Milosovic's trial the world will find out that some of the evidence against him will be "tainted" and will cast a shadow of doubt over the question of his guilt.
2 more of his "right hand men" surrendered yesterday to the court in The Haige...why? I certainly hope it is not because they have some legal defense of their actions.
Don't get me wrong...I think the man is a parasite...him, and that "big haired" hench-man of his.
Sorry, sidetracked a bit....but you did ask.
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So you don't think professionals could keep their heads calm when investigating bodies?
Is there a reason why you think so ?
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Oh you already did answer that question...
Anyway last time I heard Israel refused to let U.N group to go to Ramallah / Jenin. Makes me wonder if they had something to hide. Any thoughts ?
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Yes, rumor has it that the vile Israelis massacred hundreds of thousands of Palestinian freedom fighters in "Jeningrad" as chairman Arafat so eloquently put it. Alas, it is a pity that his history teacher could not be there to see him make such a spot on comparrisson between a four day city fight in a desert hamlet between some 2000 men, and a 6 month struggle in a large industrial city with some 1,5 million men.
Not only did the evil Israelsi massacre palestinian civilians, they also went in with large bulldozers to rubble their houses. In what can only be described as a failed attempt to cover up their henious crimes.
Fortunately enough the brave reporters and journalists of the western press, the true bringers of truth, the models of unbiased reporting managed to uncover the vile Israeli plot. And Israel was caught red-handed.
There must be hundreds of thousands of bodies hidden beneath the ruins of Jeningrad, and there is no way the Israelis can hide their horrible horrible crime. If only the UN inspectors could be allowed to investigate this. The brave neutral UN inspectors, who Israel has no reason to mistrust at all.
The UN has proved their worth in Israel time and time again. Who but the UN stopped the Egypt military build up in the Sinai 1967, who but the UN prevented Lebanese terrorists from attacking Israel for over a decade.
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Hey all you jewhaters!!!
Israel won.Not the war yet,but a major battle.Call it the "battle of Jeningrad" if You wish as your moronic hero calls it.
And I`m talking about the moral battle as well as the military.
Just accept it:There was no massacre in Jenin,or any other part of the West Bank
Some attrocities happened,like looting and so,but those who are responsible will be investigated and punished.Israelis aren`t angels either,there are many amazinhunks in their leagues just like in any other nation`s.But they will be kept in check,not like the murderers on the other side who are worshipped as martyrs and heroes.
OTOH your righteous pals are digging up their own cemeteries to support their own lies about thousands of innocent civilians murdered.
What a diddlyin` joke.
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Caligula what did Israel exactly "won" ?
Next think what did it lose... That country would have much better future without Sharon.
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Call me anything you want,I don`t give a toejam.
But I will have my own country to raise my childeren in peace.
And what You see on CNN is how that country has to be defended from people who want to destroy it.You don`t like it?
Guess what?Me neither.But there`s no other way to do it.
Or maybe I just can`t see how.If so please enlite us supporters of the evil israeli judao-nazi regime,what You think a solution to this problem would be,because all I ever see You post is just bashing on Israel.
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Caligula what did Israel exactly "won" ?
So far it won a scuicide bombing free few weeks.
Arrested or killed many key terrorists.
Destroyed many bomb factories.
Scared the toejam out of arabs.
I concider it a victory.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
So far it won a scuicide bombing free few weeks.
-True.
Arrested or killed many key terrorists.
-Thing is when you kill one there's two who want to fill dead one's boots.
Destroyed many bomb factories.
-I could made a bombs in my toilet. Someting you learn when playing with explosives in army. I've heard there's few guides in web too for "Do it yourself" type of guys.
Scared the toejam out of arabs.
-I'm speachless.
I concider it a victory.
-Well one out of four... not bad at all.
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The land of fruits and nuts.....
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Israel should follow the Kuwati an Jordanian example when it comes to dealing with the "Palistinians". Want to see modern "nazi" conduct? Try to build a Christian church in any Arab country. See how close you can build it to Mecca.
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Would be nice to see some info backing up that claim.
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I did look some info about Saudi-Arabia from CIA's World Factbook:
Why would you like to built a church to a country where 100% of inhabitants are muslims?
(actually another source says there's 0,8% Christians ~ 180000ppl out from 22800000; Don't know if CIA is a reliable source....)
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So the right of 180000 people to worship the way they want has to be ignored,because they live in a country where they are minority?
And before You bring up the rights of palestinians in Israel in comparison.I`m yet to hear news of christians blowing up civilians in Saudi-Arabia.
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First I'd like to know if we should trust CIA or that another source I already forgot...
btw do you think Israel is occupying areas which belong to another countries?
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OTOH we're yet to see saudi-arabians occupying the land of the christians and building new settlements there.
What if the christians did build a church there but the saudis would demolish it down with bulldozers? That would cause a conflict 100% certain if the christians were fundamentalists.
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btw do you think Israel is occupying areas which belong to another countries?
The West Bank?
It was part of Jordan,not Palestine since the country of Palestine never existed.King Hussein of Jordan declared in 1988 that he has no claims for the West Bank anymore.So who`s country is it than?
Go take a look at Hortlund`s history lesson,and see who`s occupying what land.
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Well I really don't care much about Hortlund's thoughts...
Maybe we should check what CIA thinks about that issue. I wonder if U.S government's opinion is same ;)
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btw Caliguka:
Your location looks like it says "California" but this sentence says you're from Israel.
"But I will have my own country to raise my childeren in peace.
And what You see on CNN is how that country has to be defended from people who want to destroy it."
So are you Israeli citizen in U.S or are you only planning to move to there?
Anyway now I understand why your opinions are like they are :)
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Originally posted by Staga
Would be nice to see some info backing up that claim.
After a short Google search:
http://www.persecution.org/humanrights/egypt.html
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aame/aame0140.htm
There are many more, and I only looked at Egypt, which is only 85% Muslim.
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It has been clear to me for ages that ALL religious fundamentalism sucks and it sucks hard. It doesn't matter if its muslim, christian, jew or anyone..
Fundamentalism is IMO a state of insanity. With fundamentalism people set aside rational thinking, human rights and what's left of general civilisation. A fundamentalist kills for his religion. He might kill for a thing that he THINKS offends his beliefs even if they didn't have any real world backing.
Shortly put, these people are crazy.
I will never ever travel to a fundamentalist lead country freewillingly. It's like putting your head to a lions cage with tourism in mind.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
OTOH we're yet to see saudi-arabians occupying the land of the christians and building new settlements there.
You would be shocked at the number of mosques that have been built in the UK and North America...some have been built by Saudis, quite a few with Saudi money. Where there are mosques there are Musilm "settlements".
I think that there is something like 1,500 mosques around Birmingham, England alone.
Not that there is anything wrong with that...as long as they teach "true Islam" and not the fundementalist nonesense that seems to be the norm in the Mid-East right now.
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Curval the day you see a muslim main battle tank cruising the streets there, we can talk about occupation.. Lol.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
Curval the day you see a muslim main battle tank cruising the streets there, we can talk about occupation.. Lol.
You make a point about Saudis never occupying Christian land.
I pointed out that you are wrong - occupation doesn't HAVE to be forceful.
There are no Israeli or US/British tanks cruising the streets of Saudi cities, so again...I fail to see your point.
As I pointed out "There is nothing wrong" with having Mosques in Christian countries....the west pride's itself in being tolerant of other faiths in their countries. Not so in the Mid-East.
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btw Caliguka:
Your location looks like it says "California" but this sentence says you're from Israel.
"But I will have my own country to raise my childeren in peace.
And what You see on CNN is how that country has to be defended from people who want to destroy it."
So are you Israeli citizen in U.S or are you only planning to move to there?
Anyway now I understand why your opinions are like they are
I`m about to move there,hopefully I`ll be living in Israel by october.
Ya`ll all be happy,coz I won`t have any time for posting on this BBS.
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Curval, sorry for my absence, my cable modem went down, and until tuesday I am on dial-up.
....what I was looking for was a population census of the region during those times. I don't know for a fact, but I have a feeling the figures will contradict your 1922 stats and show that there were probably very few ansestors of the current Palestinian population lived there.
Do you believe ncient claims outweigh modern ones?
Can I, as a Celt, claim land and ownership of England because I can prove my ancestors were there befoe the Angles and Saxons?
Can native Americans claim ownership because they can prove they owned the land before European settlers came?
No legal system in the world recognises ancient claims like this.
For several hundred years, the population of Palestine has been almost wholly Arab, although until 1918 they were occupied by the Ottoman Empire.
I have posted the first British census taken in 1922. However, look at more recent times. 1 settlement in the West Bank predates Israel's conquest of the area in 1967.
Some more figures:
Settler population of West Bank and Gaza:
1972: 1500
1991: 95,000
2001: approx 200,000
On average, 2,200 acres of Palestinian land is confiscated each month to build new settlements and expand existing ones.
Where there are mosques there are Musilm "settlements".
No, there are Muslims living under the laws of the land they have settled in. They have not set up fortified hilltop villages, and brought in an occupying army to enforce their will. They have not taken 75% of the water resources, and imposed curfews on neighbouring towns and villages. They do not have the right to carry automatic weapons, they do not carry out pogroms against the local population.
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Originally posted by weazel
The land of fruits and nuts.....
Careful bud...
A large portion of the people inhabiting the San Joaquin Valley just might be related to you. Migrant workers from Oklahoma during the depression.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Curval, sorry for my absence, my cable modem went down, and until tuesday I am on dial-up.
LOL!
...No problem man
Now, as to what you wrote..
Do "I" believe in ancient claims over modern ones?
Well....the UN certainly seemed to, when they orchestrated the evolution of the modern state of Israel. Does it really matter what "I" think?
"No, there are Muslims living under the laws of the land they have settled in. They have not set up fortified hilltop villages, and brought in an occupying army to enforce their will. They have not taken 75% of the water resources, and imposed curfews on neighbouring towns and villages. They do not have the right to carry automatic weapons, they do not carry out pogroms against the local population."
Agreed...."settlements" was probably a bit strong. I should have said "neighborhoods"...better?
Glad that they behave themselves in the neighborhoods in the west. If they started blowing themselves and others up in the land they have settled in, more drastic measures might perhaps be necessary.
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LOL!
It's no LOL'ing matter.
Friday I went from a 512k connection to 1 Mb. That lasted for a few blissful hours, but now I'm down to 56k. It's terrible. The other ME thread takes about 3 minutes to load in.