Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: wobbel on March 12, 2001, 05:26:00 PM
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Hi guys, this is just a question I come up with after seeing some discussion on why the knits are so many etc.
1- Why don't we just have to Country?
So its more chance for the both country to bee equal.
2- Why cant we split the choose off planes in Alliesplane of the one country and Jap.Germen planes off the other?
So we get more historical/realism out of the game.
Is this a good idea????????
GA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Point #1: Replacing 3 countries with 2 only means one thing. You'll only have 2 countries instead of 3. It's not going to become any more even.
Point #2: Scenarios.
-SW
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Point 2: I mean in the MA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
GA
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"Point #1: Replacing 3 countries with 2 only means one thing. You'll only have 2 countries instead of 3. It's not going to become any more even."
I disagree. With 3 teams players have 3 choices when playing to match their style: Topdog, UnderDog, or Sadomasochist. With everyone attacking the Sados. The current MA is a perfect example of how groups respond to these choices.
With 2 teams you effectively combine the Underdogs and the Sadomasochists to create a more closely balanced room. And more importantly, you eliminate the option to prey on the weak team.
The 3 team concept only balances itself if the 2 underdogs gang up on the topdog. But in practice the 2 bigger dogs go for the smallest.
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Some one clue me in. Now, I've only been a full time AH'er since December but in that time I really do remember seeing the BISH vastly outnumber the Rooks and or Knits much more regularly than vice versa, and I don't remember seeing to many gripes about it. So...just a short trend or what?
SwampRat
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I disagree that 2 countrys will work better than 3. If there is an unbalance, there will be no recourse, no other country fighting your advisary on a second front.
Despite what some short sided players think, each country is always fighting 2 countrys. It is not a situation of 2 ganging up on one, it just seems that way. I have flown for each country, and in every case, we were always fighting two other countrys.
Limiting to two countrys would end up in a disaster of unbalance. My opinion anyway.
Dago
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Will one of you "math wizards" who say 2 sides would be better then 3 please explain how to me? Perhaps put it in an equation?
Type slowly, I'm not very good at your new math. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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2 sides will increase uneven sides,
Not reduce them. With the classic 3/4 country main arena set-up, no more than 30% and usually less than 10% of players online will be stuck in a hole. If you change to two countries, one entire side will be squeaking when it becomes uneven. This has been proven many times, take the latest example, WB's WWII arena. Axis vs Allies in a historical arena, sounds great doesn't it?
It's a mess. Constant squeaking. Allies have the best planes, and so most of the players. Scenarios are the only way to limit sides. Main arenas need at least three countries, and I believe 6 would be even better. Switch sides if dweebs won't finish ya off, and do it yourselves! Be proactive, because whining about numbers always looks bad, imo.
Cya up...Braz
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Originally posted by Virage:
"Point #1: Replacing 3 countries with 2 only means one thing. You'll only have 2 countries instead of 3. It's not going to become any more even."
I disagree. With 3 teams players have 3 choices when playing to match their style: Topdog, UnderDog, or Sadomasochist. With everyone attacking the Sados. The current MA is a perfect example of how groups respond to these choices.
With 2 teams you effectively combine the Underdogs and the Sadomasochists to create a more closely balanced room. And more importantly, you eliminate the option to prey on the weak team.
The 3 team concept only balances itself if the 2 underdogs gang up on the topdog. But in practice the 2 bigger dogs go for the smallest.
Be nice and lovely if it worked that way.
But it don't.
One side will have more numbers than the other. The side with numbers will therefore gangbang the otherside.
You can disagree, but I've seen it in action in Flying Circus.
It do no workie.
-SW
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Guys...
Im sure that HT will get an HA arena going fairly soon. The MA will not work with 2 Countries. Just check out the whining on AGW board about WBs HA arena. The numbers are way more lopsided in there HA. 150 guys flyin allied and 50 flying axis.
I dont expect to see an HA arena here till the boys start pumpin out some early war A/C.
Just wait, it will come.
Dog out..............
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Dog, a good HA setup is...
Axis: Ju88, Bf-109F4.
Allied: SpitV, SpitIX and Lancaster.
WB had an HA setup like that back when everything was still 2D (1.09? 1.11?) and it was a blast. Reduced icons too. I think you could only see icons within 1000yds. It was awesome.
-SW
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I would be interested to see how the MA experience would be if for 1 tour (or even 1 week) there was only 2 teams to choose from. ** SAME PLANE SET FOR BOTH TEAMS **.
My guess is that instead of having 1 team ALWAYS in the bucket, the forces would be relatively balanced until 1 side is about to lose.
[This message has been edited by Virage (edited 03-12-2001).]
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"...The MA will not work with 2 Countries. Just check out the whining on AGW board about WBs HA arena...".
It applies to their "main" WWII arena also. Here is a typical AGW thread started today on this very subject:
"Yesterday when the odds were 102 Allied to 58 Axis 15 of us protested by leaving the arena for 5 minutes. I know that doesn't seem like much but perhaps it's the start of something." http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/018829.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/018829.html)
Now please...no more recommending two sides! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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Wobble:
They did this in WB and it totally sucked.
Hooligan
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Some very simple questions for you guys against trying a 2 sided war...
What are you afraid of? Why would you not even try it for a week? Concerned about losing your advantage in numbers?
Tired of the same old toejam "it sucked we had it that way in XXXX game 9 years ago when I had to walk to school uphill bare footed in the snow"
And for the people that don't understand math.. 100vs100 is much better than what we have now and if the country jumping is restricted (in some way) then there would be little chance of the massive gang bangs that happen now.
Gotta love you guys that gang then come here and beg that your numbers not be messed with.
Mox
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Mox, you gotta be really bad with math.
100vs100 would be fun... of course I don't really care about even teams. 90 vs 110 is still fun... nevertheless lets try something that's a little more realistic.
Something in the area of 70 to 130. You think switching to 2 countries will bring along a fairy that will magically even up the sides and make everybody realise.. oh this team is down by 1, I'll just switch to their side. Nevermind the fact that there's the potential that humans don't have the ability to transfer information from each other's minds without communication. So that would mean 3 or 4 guys see that the other side is one person short. They swith. Now the other side is 2 or 3 people short.
Now lets take into account a program that will make teams even.... Yeah I don't like that idea. You put that in here, and you'll be playing with yourself and the rest of "The Crew" Mox. I know I don't want to fight my squad.
2 sides don't work. Either 3 or more. And that evening sides via a computer program toejam.. fergit it.
-SW
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Mox..
Ya need to read a little more of the messages before responding..
Yes, 3 country arenas have been around in Online flight sims for 12 or 13 years now.
2 country arenas dont work unless its an historical senario. Just an open HA arena will be very lopsided. Not sure why you think there going back 9 years. Heres a link of what happening today.
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/018829.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/018829.html)
Mox, im guessing you havent been around flight sims very long. Or you would know what happens in a 2 country area. There fine for events. But not as a general or Main arena setting.
Dog out.......
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Guys I clearly said in Aces High not some other game ran by some other companies etc (I know about the HiTech crew and warbirds).
You would never be fighting your squad members. Your CO would have to make a decision to move "you" as a entire squad. If there isn't room on the country you're trying to go to you simply CANNOT do it until another squad has rotated out, thus keeping the numbers in check and no there's nothing "magic" about it would be hard coded into the game.
You always get to fight with your squad, you just can't simply decide on day that you and your buddies are leaving a losing country to move to another country that has better odds.
Yes it would take some squad coordination and some planning but it would be simple to do.
You'll never be fighting against your squad mates NEVER!
Mox
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And what happens when 2 or 3 squads decided to jump between the 2 countries? Big numbers change, big imbalance.
For each player that changes, a change between sides of 2. A squad of 30 like MOL jump, it makes for a 60 number differance. One side goes down 30, the other up 30. To drastic in a two country situation.
On the topic of WB HA, what I remember most was it was a two sided situation that hardly anybody played. Often a few of the HA fans would come into the MA and almost beg for players to play in the HA with them. It wasnt pretty.
Dago
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Originally posted by Wardog:
Guys...
Im sure that HT will get an HA arena going fairly soon. The MA will not work with 2 Countries. Just check out the whining on AGW board about WBs HA arena. The numbers are way more lopsided in there HA. 150 guys flyin allied and 50 flying axis.
I dont expect to see an HA arena here till the boys start pumpin out some early war A/C.
Just wait, it will come.
Dog out..............
Bad comparison for MA though.
In WB its all because of allied planes are easier to fly and get kills, also.. how many players are more allied aligned? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In MA, this would work better since all planes would be available.
Though, I would myself put back 4-countries..
I didn't see anything wrong with 4-countries of WarBirds MA.
If there was two gangbanging on one, that fourth country was always there to kick in the back of another one and balance things.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Wardog:
Yes, 3 country arenas have been around in Online flight sims for 12 or 13 years now.
Honest question for the old timers:
Has the arena idea I proposed ever been done in a arena of any sort in the past 2 years WITH the controls I proposed?
If so, can someone explain to me how the squads got around the "numbers control" that was coded into the game? If there was such a game that used the restrictive numbers, what were the results, problems, etc?
I agree that 2 country's wouldn't work IF there wasn't some controls in place for switching country's, however this is NOT what I'm proposing.
I realize that I'm not some 10 year vet that stays in the top 20 (I stay around 500 lol) that played on some Apple but at least I, as well as several others are trying to come up with some options. This is clearly a problem that a lot of people see in AH (maybe the same in other games aswell).
Guy's don't take it personal, I'm not against you I'm just trying to figure some options out.
Mox
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Fishu.......
For once i agree with you. After flying WB for 6 years (4 country) Arena and flying AW-DOS for 5 years before that (3 country ) Arena, The 4 country setup is best. I liked it very much. I also liked the HA arena, but few flew it unless it was a senario. Im talkin 3 to 5 people in the HA and maybe 13 to 16 in it on weekends. This has changed now that someone has listened to the masses and set it up so its historicaly fun to fly. But now there is a number (lop sided) occurance.
And your right, it may not apply here in AH as there is a large LW base as compared to the Allied base in WB. Would be funny if 130 Axis showed up and only 50 Allied (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I still say give it a bit of time. HT and crew have pumped out hugh updates and are tweaking a lot of things no one considered. Im very impressed as to how far AH has come in 1 1/2 years..
Dog out...
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No no Mox,
No offense taken, keep thinking! Opinions presented with your style would never be misplaced. We all agree with your wishes, to make a more realistic and better balanced arena. We've seen this natural idea tried many times of course. But your right, never with your caveat. Of course any restrictions about side and plane choice sound like a scenario anyway, heheh. And that's where the best realism and forced sides is most fun, imo.
Cya up...Braz
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I much prefer the idea of a two-sided war. It probably provides the best opportunities for large-scale air combats and ground warfare.
But its gotta be reasonably balanced. Those who say, "Oh that was tried in WB or AW and it never worked" forget one important thing that AH has that the other games do not ...
Perk Points.
Structure a perk point multiplier based on the numbers of the two sides.
Country A has 50 people, country B has 100 people.
Situation 1: A P51 pilot from country A shoots down a P51 from country B. His normal perk point allocation would be 1, but because his side is outnumbered 2:1 his new allocation is 1*(2/1) = 2 perk points.
Situation 2: A P51 pilot from country B shoots down his counterpart in a Stang from country A. His perk point allocation would therefore be 1*(1/2) = .5 perk points.
You think that's not enough incentive for even sides?
An arena of 200, or 260 split 3 ways leads to lots of little fights everywhere.
An arena of 200, or 260 split 2 ways 'might' lead to massive air battles/ground battles which are concentrated in just a few sectors.
Surely its worth a try?
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11