Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: cajun on May 02, 2002, 12:53:22 PM
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I know I've posted about biplanes 10 times, but didnt get much feed back so instead of the name being "HTC please look at these planes" I decided to do a poll.
So I was wondering how many people would like to see Biplanes in Aces High? they would really make a great addition, I even did a test, I flew a SpitI (with the 8x303's) and only used half the guns keeping it under 250 MPH (standard top speed of the Gladiator in level flight) I was able to down 2 planes everytime I went up before gettin shot down... now imagine if I could out turn a zero...
The planes I'd really like to see are:
Gloster Gladiator/SeaGladiator: 4x303 brownings topspeed 250 (seaGladiator about 245 but can take off carriers)
CR42: not sure on guns but top speed is 312 MPH compaired to the 303 MPH A6m2 we are getting :) )
Fairey SwordFish: 1x7.9mm mg in front and gunner with 1x7.9mm mg in back, Carries 1 torp or 1500lbs of bombs, not sure on top speed.
I-153: Armament: 4x7.9mm mgs and 2x110lb bombs or 6xRS-82 rockets top speed: 267MPH level flight.
I would really like to see a fight Biplanes VS Spit 14's I think the biplanes would win cuz they could out turn the spits easy...of course if the spits were smart enough they would just run off and get more alt then turn back and dive on the slower biplanes trying to control thier speed. Would be a very interesting fight.
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Lets say it would be "interesting". :)
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They would require their own arena. I really don't see too many people wanting to take a Gladiator up against a Spitfire IX or F4U-1D.
But if you want to campaign for biplanes, how could you leave the Grumman F3F off your list, or omit the Curtiss Goshawk?
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There are too many other planes that would be useful, biplanes would be basically useless.
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I would consider the Swordfish thanks to it's role as the British CV attack plane. Would be neat to see a Mediterranean TOD with one frame focusing on attacking the Italian fleet. Maybe work them into a Frame of BoB stuff.
While I welcome all aircraft additions, I don't have any interest in Bips as fighters.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by cajun
I would really like to see a fight Biplanes VS Spit 14's I think the biplanes would win cuz they could out turn the spits easy...of course if the spits were smart enough they would just run off and get more alt then turn back and dive on the slower biplanes trying to control thier speed. Would be a very interesting fight.
No, not really. Just watch a FW, Mustang, or Corsair go up against a Zero. Hit, run, climb, hit, run, climb. The Zero should be spinning like a top, trying to get off a lucky snap shot before the BnZ plane could get out of range. A bi-plane would be even worse.
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Originally posted by gofaster
They would require their own arena. I really don't see too many people wanting to take a Gladiator up against a Spitfire IX or F4U-1D.
But if you want to campaign for biplanes, how could you leave the Grumman F3F off your list, or omit the Curtiss Goshawk?
Where do poeple get the impression that biplanes were outdated during WW2? they could easily match any early-mid war plane, look at the A6m2 we are getting the CR42 goes faster than it does and could out turn it! I don't think they would require their own arena.
And historically they were used allot over Europe, they even had some biplanes in the battle for Briton. I would go up against any late war plane in a ww2 biwinger, and if you could get em in a low turn fight you've practically won!
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It would make for a fun Wild Wednesday..!
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Originally posted by cajun
and if you could get em in a low turn fight you've practically won!
The problem will be in getting to this point. I don't think that too many experienced (not ace or ubbervet or anything) flyers will let it get to this point. As GoFaster mentioned, you'll get B&Zed to death.
It would be fun for canyon fights and dodging in a furball, but 1v1 co-E I don't think you'll get the results your expecting.
-Sikboy
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I was thinking more of furballing or upping at a vulched feild.
It would play a about the same roll as the a6m only better as far as turning go :) and if you add the CR42 youll be faster too :)
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Nope, development time is better spent on aircraft that players would actually fly. Not on a "one time just for fun sortie".
dago
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no
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Kind of rediculous you guys think Bi-planes shouldn't be added.
I-15
I-153 both served on the Eastern front for a long while. Top speed of 280MPH.. could easily do damage with one of those in a furball. There were quite a few equipped with 4x 12.7mm MGs. (I-153BS)
Gloster Gladiator faced off against Fiat Cr.42 Falcos over Malta. 257MPH and 267MPH respectively. Gladitor had 4x 7.7mm Brownings. Cr.42 had 2 12.7mm MGs.
These fighters played a roll in WWII, so if you are going to clamor for things like the P61B, Rip, or other late war planes that saw limited action (Ta-152) then the above Bi-planes should be added.
How many planes of the latest release do you think are not "one time just for fun"ers Dago?
THey were for the CT, and these would work well in many scenarios.
EDIT: How did it go? If it saw action it should be modelled...
-SW
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I would much rather see early to mid war biplanes than a late Mustang, a Bearcat, or even a Do-335 (although I'm particularly fond of this last one...).
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Not interested.
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Very well said AKSWulfe :D
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Yes, for the ones that were used during WWII.
:)
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Bring them ON! And the B.534 as one of the first please :)
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At a minimum, I want all of these planes plus the ones still waiting to be built in my closet:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/sflores1/MyModels.html
edit: to answer the poll directly: of course I would like biplanes to be added or any other plane HTC blesses us with.
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no
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AKSWulfe
This was a poll, asking for an opinion, I gave mine.
This thread didnt say "lets have a discussion".
But, for what its worth:
No, I dont think we need Bi-planes. They wouldnt be flown in the MA at all.
CT - This arena and anything done for it is a waste of HTCs time in my opinion. Hardly anybody ever flies in it. Having the CT players requests guide the future development efforts is a bit of the tail wagging the dog. The MA pays the bills, CT is just a distraction. hahahah I bet you dont like that. :)
BiPlanes are fine for DOA, but they would just be a differant version of Baby Seal in the MA (and CT).
dago
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Yes... eventually. I'd love to see the Swordfish, but there are more immediate "needs".
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Originally posted by streakeagle
At a minimum, I want all of these planes plus the ones still waiting to be built in my closet:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/sflores1/MyModels.html
edit: to answer the poll directly: of course I would like biplanes to be added or any other plane HTC blesses us with.
Nice models there streakeagle :)
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Originally posted by Dago
This was a poll, asking for an opinion, I gave mine.
This thread didnt say "lets have a discussion".
But, for what its worth:
No, I dont think we need Bi-planes. They wouldnt be flown in the MA at all.
CT - This arena and anything done for it is a waste of HTCs time in my opinion. Hardly anybody ever flies in it. Having the CT players requests guide the future development efforts is a bit of the tail wagging the dog. The MA pays the bills, CT is just a distraction. hahahah I bet you dont like that. :)
BiPlanes are fine for DOA, but they would just be a differant version of Baby Seal in the MA (and CT).
dago
Thats where you are wrong I and many other people would fly them in the main arena what makes you think they are obsolite?
I would like to see CR42 with its 50 cals or any other biwinger, and I promise you they would be well worth flying. I don't get what you think is so obsolite about them though? if the answer is they are slow, 1: being slow can be a good advantage if you use it properly which is why I love A6m which is actuelly slower than allot of biwingers. and 2: they would make good dive bombers/bomber escourts, as well as "vulched feild fighters" because they could get up in the air before anyother plane and handle well at low or high speeds.
But like you said its a poll, but i dont mind having discussions in it.
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Originally posted by streakeagle
At a minimum, I want all of these planes plus the ones still waiting to be built in my closet:
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/sflores1/MyModels.html
edit: to answer the poll directly: of course I would like biplanes to be added or any other plane HTC blesses us with.
Yes very nice, how long did it take to build all those?
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S!
Yes, but as part of Biplane set would need early monoplanes as well:
Early plane set:
Gloster Gladiator
Fairey Swordfish
I-153
I-16
PZL 11
Fiat CR-42
Ki-27 `Nate`
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The grumman J2F duck or the fairey swordfish
but that just biplanes
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11 yes's and 7 no's so far :) (counting hblair's post: "Lets say it would be "interesting". as a no)
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Nope.
That would be the last thing I'd have them model.. after all the monoplanes.
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Yep.
Swordfish.
Gladiator.
F3F
And all the early war Russian front planes
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Originally posted by Dago
CT - This arena and anything done for it is a waste of HTCs time in my opinion. Hardly anybody ever flies in it. Having the CT players requests guide the future development efforts is a bit of the tail wagging the dog. The MA pays the bills, CT is just a distraction. hahahah I bet you dont like that. :)
Don't like what? I hardly ever fly in the CT.. so, uh, yeah... anyway, they'd be good for scenarios in the SEA. Which is why the previous set of planes was added. Excluding the later models that were added. The MA might be the main attraction, but a lot of people still fly in the scenarios.. and you can't have an early Eastern front scenario without bi-planes, it'd be like having the Battle of Britain without Ju87s.
Originally posted by Dago
BiPlanes are fine for DOA, but they would just be a differant version of Baby Seal in the MA (and CT).
So are virtually all of the early war planes, but they still get added...
-SW
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And 1 thing advantage about biwingers in the main arena is it would be a great perk point earning plane, would have a high eny value and would be good for furballing since it could out turn and gennerally out manuver any other plane on the game!
I'd fly them in the Main Arena, I'd Even fly them aganst an ME262... that would be very interesting fight I may not be able to catch it but it wouldnt be able to go slow enough to shoot me LOL :D
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Couple of Biplanes added is a great idea. (AKSwulfe.. I thought it was the I-16?, anyway in IL-2 the game its a pretty tough plane to get behind (err..and stay behind) and kill)
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NO! Only the ones that were used during WWII.
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http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/bulldog.html
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/gladiatr.html
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/polik153.html
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No.
Well, perhaps after every other WWII fighter, bomber and transport has been added. But ONLY then.
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While I would like to see some of the more commonly used biplanes eventually (Swordfish, Gladiator, CR42 etc) I dont think the time is yet. There are many planes that need to be added that played a major role in WW2 that would be survivable in the MA and useful for scenarios and in the CT as well. The biplanes were largely sidelined or used for roles where they did not meet enemy fighter opposition.
Biplanes were very much obselete during WW2, since air combat during the war was pretty much all about speed. Biplanes are actually much slower than has been listed here for there top speeds. My sources show the top speed for the Gladiator as 250 and the CR42 as 286 but those speeds are at higher altitudes. Near the deck, the Gladiator would probably have trouble attaining 170 in level flight, and the CR42 probably wouldnt top 200, if even that. Contrary to what has been asserted, the Zeke is about 30 mph faster than the fastest biplane fighter of the war.
The manouverability of the biplanes cannot be denied, and their short ground roll probably would make them viable around a vulched field, but anybody that is smart enough to not turn with them would never get shot down by one. Not to mention the fact that their armament was truly weak, 4 .303s for the Gladiator, and 2 12.7s for some versions of the CR42. People would certainly get some kills in them, due to the fact that many people would probably be dumb enough in the MA to try to turn against them. Pilot skill is always the deciding factor, so Im sure that some of the better pilots would fly them a lot and constantly make claims about how great they are, but the truth is, that given = pilots, the biplane would NEVER win in a 1 vs 1 fight.
Captain Eric Brown, the famed British test pilot, tells of how he once chased 2 He-111s in a Sea Gladiator, and was unable to catch them. Thats right, the slow old He-111 was able to outrun the Gladiator. In another case, 6 Swordfish tried to torpedo the German battlecruisers, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as they tried to break out of the English Channel. Bf-109s led by Adolf Galland shot down all 6 with great ease.
I have always had a weakness for biplanes, and I love the Gladiator especially, but there is no way they would stand much chance in the MA, and they would have limited usefulness in scenarios and the CT as well. There are about 20 airplanes that I think need added before the biplanes are brought in. Eventually, though I think they should be added.
However, it seems to me that I remember HTC once saying something about biplanes being hard to model with this graphics engine or something like that. I cant remember excactly what was said, but it seems like they more or less vetoed biplanes. Im searching for that thread now.
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yes
(http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/Media/Hs123a.gif)
I'm happy with divebombing Ostwinds in my Fw190F-8, but it would be so much more humiliating if I'd kill 'em in the Henschel HS 123 :D
"Variety is the spice of Life, that's what the Judge is gonna tell my Wife..."
The Doors
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YES.... Cr.42 (best biplane of the war)
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yes but only those used for combat in WW2 or for recon if it get a role in AH.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Couple of Biplanes added is a great idea. (AKSwulfe.. I thought it was the I-16?, anyway in IL-2 the game its a pretty tough plane to get behind (err..and stay behind) and kill)
The I-16 is the monoplane Ishak. It has retractable gear, and an open cockpit.
The I-15 is the bi-plane "base" model. It didn't have retractable gear, and was slower.. the I-153 incorporated retractable landing gear.
-SW
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A hearty NO!
Kuben
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Originally posted by cajun
So I was wondering how many people would like to see Biplanes in Aces High?
I'd love it. Probably wouldn't work well unless you had enough of them to do a Spanish Civil War setup, or China 1938, something like that.
Arlo must be lurking around here some place.
- oldman
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Yes
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Give me a Hs123 Stuka and I'll happily fly it! :-) (That's Stukaa as in "Sturzkampfflugzeug", or "dive-bomber"). They were very effective ground-attack machines, and there were cals to start making them again as late as 1943, because they were so accurate, versatile and all-round USEFUL. In real life.
Real life didnt have planes of every country vs planes of every country, so IMO it's silly to say planes aren't useful because many wouldn't fly them in the MA. If you think they wouldnt be useful in the MA, that's one thing, but not useful in more realistic scenario flying? That's quite another thing.
Some of the most useful and popular planes in the MA hardly made any impressio at all on the course of WW2, because they were made in very small numbers and/or too late to make much impact. From the point of view of those of us interested in more realistic flying than one gets in the MA, those are the "useless" planes, whilst many a "useful" one - Wellingtons, Blenheims, Halifax, Beaufighter, Catalina, Buffalo, Val, Kate, Betty, He111, Do17, Do217, Ju188, Ju87, FW200, Hs123, Ju52, CR42, SM79, Pe2, I-16, Pe8 and plenty more I can't recall ATM remain to be modelled. Yet many/most of THAT list would be sneered at by those who enjoy MA-style flying.
The question was: would you like to see biplanes in Aces High?
Yes, because they would add to the richness of the game, the range of things that we could possibily do with it. And I'm sure even MA-type flyers might enjoy things like racing some of the biplanes, aerobatics contests, etc. now and then.
Also, as AH gets larger and larger, if ground fighting becomes more common, there'll be more need for close-support aircraft, and most of the biplanes were pretty good at that. Heck, if artillery is introduced, we might even want types like the FW189, Hs126, Lysander, Storch...
:-)
Esme
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nop
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Originally posted by Duedel
NO! Only the ones that were used during WWII.
I am talking about the ones used In WW2, there were allot of them and Many had a top speed of more than the zero's! and everyone flys the zero, A CR42 with a top speed of 312 MPH compared to the Zero's top speed of 303 MPH And the CR42 as well as all the other biwingers could out turn a Zero!
People keep saying they won't be used in Main Arena, People make an assumption because they are biplanes they were OutDated and Useless, but in reality they played a very important roll and were much more manuverable than any of the Mono planes In fact the I-16 (mono plane) flew before the I-153(biplane) most countries prefered the Biplane version because it could out manuver the mono plane version and was near the same speed.
They will definitly be worth flying in the Main Arena... Its the same arguement as with the P-40 "No body will fly it in the main arena its worthless" yet I'm sure we will be seeing allot of it :D
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I love biplanes and would happily fly them in the MA. -AlgyFt
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But isnt it realy tough to model Biwingers?
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Originally posted by Viper17
But isnt it realy tough to model Biwingers?
I was wonderin the same thing but I don't think so (I think SUPERFLY has modeled a few but not sure on that) Imagine though you get 4 ailerons and 4 wings could'nt get shot down by a lil ping takin out your wing tip :D Besides If they can model B17 I think they can handle a biwinger LOL :)
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i would love to fly biplanes, like the I153 fighter and everything else!
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Yes
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Thats 22 yes's and 11 no's so far keep it up and maybe we will get em after all! :D
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Fairy Swordfish, Heck ya!
Bring em all on, but slip em in one here & 2 there along with the rest of the planes we need.
HT need to hire another plane artist?
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:D
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Originally posted by airspro
:D
Looks like a Biwing version of the F4F
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:p
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I saw that somewhere, stats looked allot worse than most biplanes and must not have to good of a turn rate but thats just guessing since the wings are on top, though I think it carries 6 mg's compared to the gladaitors 4 right? I still wanna biplane :D But we will prolly even see this thing before HTC ever thinks of adding a biplane:(
BTW How do you attach Images like that, I clicked on the IMG button and it asks for a "Script promt, Enter text to be formatted"
I am trying to attach a pic in C:/MyDocuments/Mypictures how do I tell it to do that?
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I'll stick with the J2F:D
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lol J2f would be cool cuz it's a sea plane but only problem is.... It has no armament! well some carried like 650 lbs of bombs or depth charges, but there are no subs and almost anybipane can carry 650 lbs... but it does look neat :) it would be a good addition if we ever got subs or "spy" type rolls.
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There was some japanese sea biplane... cant remember the name but had 2x7.9mm mgs in front and 1x7.9mm in back for the gunner/observer....
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My upper pick is showing Polish built fighter PZL P.24 G...
Max speed 267 mph (430 km/h) at 14,765 ft (4500 m)
service ceiling 34,450 ft (10500 m)
climb to 16,405 ft (5000 m) in 5 minutes 40 sec
Armament
Two 20 mm Oerlikon FF cannon :eek:
two 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Browning mgs (700rds each)
or 7.7 mm (0.303 in) KM Wz 33 mgs (500 rds each)
88 lbs (40 kg) of bombs externally
Later four 7.9 mm Colt browning MG40 and four 12.5 kg bombs
Mitsubishi F1M1/F1M2 "Pete" was single-engined observation float seaplane or seaplane trainer (F1M2-K)
Max speed 230mph (370kmh) at 3340 m
Service ceiling 9,440 m
Climb to 5,000 m in 9 min 36 sec
armament was two 7.7mm mgs, one rear-firing 7.7mm mg and two 60kg (132lb) bombs :)
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Beriev KOR-1 "Korablemij Razvedchik" is similar looking plane.
Kor1 was a small float biplane and the standard catapult aircraft for cruisers. First flown from sea in September 1936 and was in service until 1942. Three 7.62 mm mgs and 200kg (440lb) bombs.
Max speed 172mph (277kmh) at 2000m
Plane looks like I-15 or I-152 at floats... :p
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Cool, I gotta great pic of a gladiator but don't know how to post it!! :( When I click the "IMG" button it asks for "script prompt Enter text to be formatted" what am I supposed to enter?
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Testing:
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Finnally!!!! It worked :D :) :D :) :D
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Would not mind shooting biplanes, but they would probably have an ENY of near 0
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(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/gladiatr.gif)
Gloster Gladiator was a mixed structured bi-plane fighter with a fixed landing gear. Finland acquired 30 Gladiators from England on 12 Dec, 1939. 10 of those were donated and 20 were bought. The planes were shipped to Sweden and they were assembled at Centrala Flygverkstaden Malmslätt. Then the planes were delivered to Barkarby and flown to Finland. The first 4 arrived on 18 Jan, 1940 and the last planes on 16 Feb. Swedish volunteer unit Flygflottilj 19 brought 12 Gladiators with them in Finland on 10 Jan, 1940.
SERVICE
STATS,
1940
45 kills
by 22 pilots,
1941-44
1 kill
by 1 pilot
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sounds like a great idea theyd only be used in the hth mostly tho not many MA people would like going against a zero in one
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Originally posted by vorticon
sounds like a great idea theyd only be used in the hth mostly tho not many MA people would like going against a zero in one
Why not? Biplanes would be the best turners on the game, they could out turn a zero with no problem and most biplanes had about the same top speed as a zero, only disadvantage of the biwingers would be not many had cannons. but If you can turn as sharp as they can you dont need cannons :D
I can see them being flown in MA, I would fly em in MA, People fly the F4u-1, SpitI and HurricaneI in MA, and allotta biwingers can easily match those planes, infact I was doin a little research and found that the Gloster Gladiator had a longer range than a late war spitfire! And The I-153 biplane had a top speed of 267mph compared to the I-16 mono plane (wich I've heard some poeple asking for) that had a top speed of only 240 mph! and the CR42 had a top speed of 312 compared to the hurricane we have now that has a top speed of 314 only 2 mph faster.
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some I-153's also had retractable landing gear and 4x12.7mm mgs in place of the 4x7.7mm mgs.
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cajun,
The Zero, A6M2 or A6M5, will easily out run and out climb a biplane fighter, except myabe that Italian one which is almost as fast as the A6M2. The Zero would simply need to employ BnZ tactics instead of TnB tactics and you'd have one dead biplane. It'd be like an F4U vs A6M fight, except the A6M would be the BnZ aircraft. In both cases the slow TnB aircraft is at the mercy of the fast BnZ aircraft.
That said, yes, a few biplane fighters would be neat at some point, but we need a good Japanese planeset first.
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I was thinking the same thing, I think they should mix in a japanese biplane with a few more japanese fighters, then work on a Fairey Swordfish, CR42, Gloster Gladiator & I-153 mixed in with a 156 beaufighter and some more italian/japanese planes.
PS. what is "Bnz"/"TnB"?
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cajun,
We need a good Japanese planeset.
:D
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Was editing my post when you replied, actuelly they should add biplanes and Japanese planes in the same patch I think, they are both really badly needed, but at least the japanese have 5 planes Biwingers have 0 lol.
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"BnZ" = Boom and Zoom, aka energy fighting.
"TnB" = Turn and Burn, aka angles fighting.
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Originally posted by Karnak
"BnZ" = Boom and Zoom, aka energy fighting.
"TnB" = Turn and Burn, aka angles fighting.
O ok, when gettin "Bnz'd" just do like i do cut engine lower flaps and go crazey, works good if u do it right then u just drop low and get em in a turn fight, and if they don't follow just go find a furball, vulch a feild or find a newb lol thats what i do when flyin a6m any way:D
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You can always escape or make evasive action whit biplane when zeke or spit tryis BnZ. While they start climbing away place nice burst from 2x12,7 UBS (late I-153 got 2x20mm ShVAK) and we got burding spit/zeke.
And you can always vulch field with rockets or bombs :D
I-153 could carry 6 rockets or 2x25kg+2x50kg bombs or 2x80 liter drop tanks ;)
This pick is showing Finnish I-153 "Tsaikka" , these planes were used for maritime reconnaissance.
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The I-16 "Rata", not a biplane, but the 1st CANNON armed WWII fighter
(http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/polik16.gif)
julle
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Yeah I-16 actuelly was slower and less manuverable than the I153 biplane version and was replaced by the I-153 in many countries, I'd like to see em both but the Biplane should be added first, or both at the same time.
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Look at this:
D3a1 with fixed landing gear! now theres no excuse we don't have biplanes :D
PS. I don't mean this to sound like a "troll" :)
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Sorry. Waste of time. No more additions or improvements to AH.
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Maybe AH2 could introduce Bi planes..(and tri planes?)
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U wan´t fixed gear? :D
(http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/sarvan3.jpg)
What can be done with a D.XXI: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/sarvan/sarvan.htm
julle
(http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/kuvat/Uberfinns-Logo.gif)
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I never thought I would squelch anyone on the UBB.........Buh-Bye cajun.
Biplane....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....give it a fediddleing rest already.
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All new A/C are cool IMHO. As for biplanes specifically, I couldn't care less.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
Sorry. Waste of time. No more additions or improvements to AH.
?? No more planes are gonna be added in AH? this is it?!?!?
NO more patchs??!? What I allways liked about AH and what has kept me into it was all the patchs and new planes to fly, You've done a good job, but please don't stop now :)
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I want something that would out-turn anything else in this game....so yes I want biplanes.