Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sabre on May 02, 2002, 04:19:45 PM
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Perhaps this will do better in this forum;)...
Separate CV and Amphibious Assault fleets – CVBG’s would have two CV’s, a cruiser (CA), and four DE’s. The latter would include a battleship (Iowa class is my vote), two CA’s, and four DE’s. LVT’s only available from the AA fleets.
Direct Helm Control of Fleets – when the commanding player is on the bridge (i.e. the tower), he has control of speed and direction of fleet via a ship’s wheel and engine telegraph. Leaving the bridge would cause ship to return to standard fleet speed and resume plotted course. Simple instruments would be included to give speed, heading, and fleet status (damage/sunk status of all ships in fleet), which leads to…
Increased Complexity of Ship Damage Model – Ships can take specific damage that will affect operations, such as CV elevators affecting ability to launch A/C, damage to guns putting them out of action, etc. This would be accompanied by smoke and fire affects. Damage would still accumulate towards sinking, but damage control would repair damaged equipment and halt/pump-out flooding.
Fleet Auxiliaries – Oilers, ammo ships, and troop transports would accompany fleets. Sinking them has the same affect as destroying fuel tanks/ammo bunkers/barracks at land bases.
Fire Control Director Positions on Fleets – Instead of manning each gun position individually, there would be multiple gun director positions on ships. A cruiser might have four: Forward Main Battery, Aft Main Battery, Port 5-inchers, and Starboard 5-inchers. Gun director would have a pintle-mounted range finder (looks like binoculars); aiming range finder aims all guns that will bear on that bearing at the same point. Gun Director positions would be in gun-director towers to get them up high. Pull trigger and all guns in battery fire together.
Just maintaining my campaign to expand AH’s naval component. The above will do for a start.
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Increased Complexity of Ship Damage Model ?Ships can take specific damage that will affect operations, such as CV elevators affecting ability to launch A/C, damage to guns putting them out of action, etc. This would be accompanied by smoke and fire affects. Damage would still accumulate towards sinking, but damage control would repair damaged equipment and halt/pump-out flooding.
I second this notion!
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I second your second:cool:
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Yup, but 1944 Yamato class, not the same old, same old Iowa.
We need Japanese ships.
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This is probably a long way down the pike if it ever gets added, but I was thinking last week, I'd love to see subs added to the game.
The problems I see with this would be that they would already have had to have added a destroyer as a perk boat with Depth Charges, Sonar (and possibly hedge hogs). They would also probably need to add depth charges to the PTs and Depth Bombs to the existing Bombers and Fighters that carried them in their maritime patrol variants. They also would need to have added independent AI control to the fleet destroyers with the ability to detect and kill subs nearby the fleet. This would mean adding 5 inch guns to the DDs (which needs to happen anyway ;) ) and the aforementioned sonar and depth charges.
As I thought about it, the Sub itself wouldn't be that hard to model or as much of an ubercritter as one might think. WW2 subs spent the majority of their time on the surface and were terribly vulnerable to air attack. Their submerged speed of around 7 mph meant they would have to lay in wait for fleets if they wanted to attack submerged - and the limited (scaled) endurance on batteries would limit even that submerge time. Also, I find that hitting anything with a torpedo in AH without a fire control computer and an acoustic homing torp is next to impossible.
Then theres the problem of modeling the undersea environment, depth ranges, etc. (a featureless bottom with varying depths is usually what most sub sims adopt). You could cut it all down and assume that any sub only submerges to periscope depth (16ft) and that would make things considerably easier - you wouldn't have to introduce multiple depth settings on charges or bombs either and you wouldn't have to worry about crush depth either.
Still, while it can be done, I think that 'un will probably be a long way down the pike if ever. For now I'll settle for a perk boat (DD preferably, but one of the many ships between the PT and the DD would be ok too) and the ship damage model. Please keep working for that one Sabre! :)
- Seagoon.
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Great ideas Sabre and Seagoon! There is definitely a place for fleet action in AH. These are the most intense virtual battles, and offer a great deal of stress relief.
For the most part, the task forces are under manned on first engagement, i.e. main turret range...LOL. And I'll be the first one to admit, I'm the biggest turret dweeb in this game. I think the reason there aren't more like me, is many players don't know how to zero in on a shore target, and even then it's not easy to hit something, especially a SB.
I'm a strong believer in the commander of a ship remaining with the fleet to make course changes in a timely manner to avoid being bombed or hit by SBs. This role is augmented by fleet aircraft giving situation reports on the target field. Imo, the fleet should withdraw immediately if there are insufficient numbers to take a field due to strong opposition. This would help keep the fleet afloat for organized action when the numbers are available for fleet support.
The map room on a carrier should have a radar screen which would warn of any nearby nme fleets. The commander could then elect to take command of the fleet, at which point would then be committed to defensive or offensive action. Turrets would be locked until someone takes command. Anyone can take command by getting in a turret and firing the guns one time...would not fire guns but would unlock them. A message would then appear on the friendly message buffer letting players know that the fleet was in action.
Les
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Belly pierce.
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?
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How about adding LCTs ??? LCT Mark 6 could carry five medium tanks, nine trucks or 150 tonnes of materiel. Armament was two 20mm Oerlikons, two .303mm mgs, two Bren light mgs and one 81mm mortar ;)
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Yeah I want to sink one full of players.. 7 kills in one shot :)
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Naval Warfare Arena...
Lots of fleets available for each country
All PAC !
Maybe allow full planeset
Invasions using overwhelming capture setting...
Amphibious landing of troops in LVT's.
What say 150 troops to capture. They land on the beach and run their little heinies for the map rooms... Any killed have to be replaced up to the 150 required.
Actual Island Sets... that rotate with each reset.
With most of these things already an immediate available resource of AH, We could be playing in this arena long before we would have the modeling and programming of new vehicles...
Food for thought ?
BOOT
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Good suggestions all around. Seagoon, subs are coming to AH in the not-to-distant future. For what details there are, go to http://www.wargamer.com and look in the archieves for the "Interview with HiTech" done at the con last year. Below is the AAR for the only pure naval snapshot we've yet done, "Form Battleline!" It gives you just a taste of the potential...
Sabre
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AAF for Snapshot, "Form Battleline!"
This was the first ever naval snapshot where aircraft played no direct role in the fighting. Instead, the heavies, the armored battlewagons, decided the day. This event pitted two cruiser squadrons against each other in a test of steal on steal. Loosely based on the battle of Dogger Bank (a prelude to the Battle of Jutland), each fleet consisted of four battle cruisers (the ubiquitous AH heavy cruisers), eight destroyers, a flotilla of motor torpedo boats (PT boats), and two unarmed scout planes. What made this event doubly unique was how these two squadrons were assembled. Each squadron was actually made up of four, independently controlled mini-task groups consisting of a single cruiser and two DE’s. Each cruiser was thus capable of independent action, unlike your normal Aces High TG (where sinking the flagship essentially kills the entire TG).
Commodore Eskimo assumed command of the British Grand Fleet battle cruiser squadron, while LdHaHa commanded the German High Seas battle cruiser squadron. Once all participants had joined the correct side, both squadrons were jumped to a position roughly 30 miles from each other (neither side knew where the other was jumped to). Each side also had a CV TG nearby, from which they were allowed to launch two TBM’s (with no air-to-ground ordnance); the CV TG was then jumped 100 miles away. The commodores were given a general direction to the enemy squadron (submarine spotting report). Each side was also allowed a one-time launch of as many PT boats as they wished, with the understanding that pilots and PT skippers were free to man guns after their planes or PT boats were sunk.
The German scout planes found the British first, and seven torpedo boats fanned out ahead of the German van to make torpedo attacks. The British fielded only a few PT boats of their own, none of which apparently made it to within torpedo range of the High Seas Fleet. Four of the German PT boats managed to launch a total of five torpedoes at the British cruisers before succumbing to a hail of eight-inch gunfire. From my eye-in-the-sky vantage, I watched two of the torpedoes cross the wakes of Royal Navy cruisers. One British man-o-war actually combed between two German torpedoes launched from a single PT boat!
As the last German torpedo boat was blown to matchwood, the two main bodies came within visual range of each other. Now the gunnery dual began in earnest. Towering columns of seawater sprouted all around the opposing ships as gunners sought the range. A German cruiser was the first to go down, as several of the British cruisers concentrated fire on her. The lead British cruiser went next, to even the odds for a few long minutes. One thousand-pound armor-piercing shells arced gracefully through the early morning skies, passing each other in flight. Oily clouds of acrid smoke soon dotted the seas amongst the German ships, as superior British gunnery began to turn the tides inexorably against their enemy. Suddenly there were only two German capital ships, then just one. The three remaining British cruisers swung their main batteries to train on the single remaining German threat, unleashing a terrible fusillade against it. The bright flash of exploding cordite heralded the end of German aspirations for victory.
The fight went on for a few minutes more, as the German destroyers tried in vain to close to point-blank range with the Royal Navy leviathans. All were quickly sunk without further loss to the British. Final score was one British cruiser sunk in exchange for four German cruisers, eight destroyers, and seven motor torpedo boats.
Special thanks to BNg, who popped in to help with CM duties. This was an incredibly complex snapshot to set up and put into motion; I couldn’t have done it without you, BNg. Thanks also to everyone for their participation, especially Eskimo and LdHaHa (command is lonely, isn’t it?). If you enjoyed this, and would like to see more snapshots like it, please post here to show your support. Thanks.
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Here's the specific reference on subs from the interview. Check out the link above for the full text.
Sabre
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SABRE: You mentioned the naval element earlier, and going along with that, the ground combat elements. It’s an air combat sim, but what kind of future expansions and additions are you planning for the naval and ground warfare elements of Aces High?
HITECH: Naval aspects? The biggest change I will be doing will be submarines in the next year.
SABRE: Wow! That is exciting!
HITECH: Submarines will basically use a fleet-type positioning system with the ability that, when the fleet of submarines, the wolfpack or whatever arrives [at the waypoint], you’ll be able to do the detailed control of it. You’ll get to aim the torpedo. You get to do all the fun stuff on the submarine; but the fact of the matter is, for a submarine to travel thirty miles at night is an immense amount of time. Nobody wants to spend that amount of time controlling a submarine. So what you’ll do is you’ll set down a waypoint [on the map] for the submarines, to get them into position to intercept a fleet, where you think they’re coming in. As they come into range, suddenly you get to jump into the simulation, the detailed fun part of the submarine element. That’s how the submarines will work.
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Thanks much for the Sub info, I'm glad to hear it.
Here is a suggestion for the kind of Perk Boat, I think would be easy enough to model, and definitely fit the easily player manned Land/Sea/Air attack bill.
Castle Class Corvettes (Royal Canadian Navy model)
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Dimensions
Length(O/A) 251.75'
Length(P.P) 225'
Beam 36.62'
Draft 10' forward/ 15.45' aft full load
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Displacement
Full Load 1,580 tons
Standard 1,060 tons
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Propulsion
Boilers 2 x 3 drum type
Turbines steam reciprocating triple expansion (4 cyl VTE) 190rpm
Horsepower 2,800 ihp
Shafts 1
Max Speed 16.5 knts
Endurance 9,400 NM @ 10 kts
6,200 NM @ 15 knts
Oil Bunkerage 480 tons
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Armament
Main Gun 1 x 4" BL Mark IX
Light A/A 6 x 20mm Oerlikon Mk 5 (2 x 2 & 2 x 1)
ASW 40 x Mk VIII 300lb cannister depth charges
1 Hedgehog with 24 x 65 lb mortar type rounds
1 Squid triple barrelled depth charge mortar
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Radars
Air Search Type 291 (Air Warning)
Type 86TBS aerials (Air Warning Radar Direction Finding)
Canadian-made "SWICK" radar added 1944
Type 272 radar
Surface Search Type 271P & 271Q A.W.R.D.F
ASW Type 123A with electric gyro compass
Depth Detector Type 127 'Sword" detector (added later)
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Complement
Usual 90
Wartime 105 enlisted (7 officers)
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Opening up on a diver with 6X20 mm oerlikons (with control slaved to one mount) would be a BLAST! Plus finally being able to stand offshore and hit targets with 4 INCH gun would add a real naval raid ability (imagine 4 players in a "naval squadron" raiding an airfield - now that would be fun). This would also finally give ports some real offensive/defensive punch.
- Seagoon
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Nice lines:). Yep, they could be devestating. The only problem would be the transit time. Even at 30+ knots, it takes most of an hour to cross just one grid. Of course, that would be the price to pay for use of such a powerful unit. Perhaps some modestly ranged spawn points, such that hitting "H" puts right along side the dock, but hitting a different one would put you 30 minutes away at full speed from potential targets.
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I agree, Spawn points along the lines of the PT would still be essential.
The following photos show off the lines and armament to even better effect.
- Seagoon
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Drooling at the thought of subs and corvettes !!!
BOOT
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That Castle Class Corvette is just too slow, i prefer japanese destroyers as perk boats...
Matsu Class Destroyer
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Displacement
Full Load 1,506 tons (trials)
Standard 1,262 tons
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Dimensions
328'1" x 30'8" x 10'10"
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Propulsion
Boilers 2
Turbines 2 geared steam
Horsepower 19,000shp
Shafts 2
Max Speed 27.75 knots
Endurance N/A
Oil Bunkerage N/A
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Armament
Main Battery 3 x 5" (127mm)/50 cal (Model 1914) (1x2, 1x1)
AAW 24 x 25mm/60 cal AA
Torpedoes 4 x 24" (610mm) (1x4) launcher
w/4 x 24" (61 cm) Type 93 (1933) Model 2
ASW 4 depth charge throwers
w/36 depth charges
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Complement
Usual 150
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More info...
http://www.combinedfleet.com/dd.htm
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Hi Dr. Zhivago,
While I'm not adverse to Destroyers being added as perk ships (and perhaps the fleet destroyers being fully modelled). But I believe that a player controlled ship that powerful (it either has 12x2 barrelled or 8x4 barrelled 25mm AA mounts for instance and 3x5 INCH guns or more mannable AA mounts than the current CV!) should at least initially be a boatload (pun intended) of perk points. 3 of them, for instance, would have nearly the same bombardment power as a current fleet. The Matsu is also pretty zippy even when compared to the ELCO PT - 27 kts vs 41 kts.
I still think the Corvette would make a better second step between PTs and DDs (I think DDs should be step 3)
1) PT
2) Corvettes & Subs
3) DD
The lower number of weapon mounts, the lesser offfensive power, and the slower speed, plus the greater sub destroying power of the hedgehog, would make for a cheaper (in terms of perks) and less potentially imbalancing transition. Although, I'm not wed to the Corvette, there are other ships (gunboats and frigates) between the PT and the DD which might also be introduced first.
Also as far as speed is concerned, regardless of what the top speed is, spawn points will be a must, anything less than 180mph in a flight sim is considered excruciatingly slow.
Still, I do look forward to the day when some DDs are introduced, and bring on the Subs!
- SEAGOON
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Coastal bases resupplied via the sea with freighters.
CMC Airboss aka MiG
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Fairey SwordFish & Sea Gladaitor :D
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I'd like to see something like the little steam vents they do on modern carrier decks. Perhaps a windsock type of thing on the forward end of the carrier. The carriers need something to show when they are turning (it's not always easy to tell) and to show when the relative wind across the bow is more or less favorable (more or less as in greater or less than, not somewhat). That way, if you are going to try to lift off a heavily loaded Hog, you can tell if you've got a decent headwind (fleet is heading into the wind) or not (fleet is travelling with the wind). Along with this, increase the sea level wind so the carrier pointing in the right direction would become more important to launching planes.
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Would like for fleet commander to have actual fleet command. While actually present on the ship, be able to check gun fire and enable/disable aircraft launches. The reason for this? So the ships can get to places without some joe giving away the fleet before it is in position to strike.
Command of this level should require perks.
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All good ideas.
I would like to see waves, and actual water (when you crash on it, you sink)
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the more targets the better :)