Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: houndog on May 02, 2002, 04:53:45 PM
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ok if we got the Nazis Me262 why not put the USA F-86 Sabre in the game?
what do u guys think?
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Hmm... Only if they add some biwingers :) jets were only used a few months at the end of the war but biwingers were used all through out the war, though I'm sure poeple would vote fore a jet over a biplane cuz for some reason they think they are so obsolite...
I think we need to focus on more of the earleir planes before adding more latewar.
Would be kinda neat to have another jet as long as its perked really high :) but i'd rather see a biwinger.
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It never saw active service, did it?
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I hate to break it to you but F-86 Sabres weren't used in WW2 that's Korea. And The P-80 never saw action WW2 (the only American Jet around in the times of WW2) they just sent the P-80s to Europe as the war ended and the jets weren't used in the Pacific because some genious didn't send drop tanks.
The only one I can see added is the Meteor which is inferior to the Me-262 and for what I know wasn't used in Europe, I heard it was just used to intercept V1s
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did the me262 saw any action? i was just watching discovery wings and the only plane that could challenge the me262 was the sabre. We know it was used in korea but Korea happend few year after wwii. I mean , the 262 need a challenger .
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the brit Gostiler Meteor
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Originally posted by houndog
did the me262 saw any action? i was just watching discovery wings and the only plane that could challenge the me262 was the sabre. We know it was used in korea but Korea happend few year after wwii. I mean , the 262 need a challenger .
Dude, you should grab a history book.
The Me-262 saw LOTS of action during WW2.
The Sabre wasnt ready anytime NEAR WW2.
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Originally posted by houndog
did the me262 saw any action? i was just watching discovery wings and the only plane that could challenge the me262 was the sabre. We know it was used in korea but Korea happend few year after wwii. I mean , the 262 need a challenger .
Bruahahahaahaha. Sabre came out years later than 262.
262 had challenger. It was called P-51. Though there was always hundreds of them.
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P-51's gobbled up Me-262s... they had to land where they could get fuel to fly again, and the pony pilots knew it ;)
I love the Chuck Yeager quote on someone's sig, something to the effect of: the first time I saw a jet, I shot it down ;)
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Ditch the 262,bloody jets.....hate em....HATE EM! ,need more Spits though.....:D
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Jets are for kids.
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Originally posted by Animal
Dude, you should grab a history book.
The Me-262 saw LOTS of action during WW2.
The Sabre wasnt ready anytime NEAR WW2.
The ME262 hardly saw any action it came at the end of the war! only was in service a few months before the war ended!
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Me262 was in service before the Fw190D-9, Bf109K-4, Tempest Mk V, Ar234 and Ta152H-1. It was also produced in greater numbers than any of those.
It was inservice in July-September of 1944.
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If i remember right the Meteor was in service over Europe right at the end of the war, but (thankfully for the pilots at least) they never encountered 262's. Although most Metors were used to shoot down v1 doodlebugs.
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Originally posted by houndog
ok if we got the Nazis Me262 why not put the USA F-86 Sabre in the game?
what do u guys think?
Fine execpt thats a Korean War fighter - would LOVE a Korean war arena mind you - but we dont need it in WW2 MA I think.
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There was a squadron of P80s sent to the Italian theatre of operations in the last month of the European war, and Gloster Meteor Mk IIIs were staioned in Belgium(or was it Holland) for the last month of the war, specifically to look for 262s but they spent most of their time on Ground Attack and Reconaissance. The Mk III was quite a bit superior to the Mk I that was used to hunt for V1s, and consequently would have been, if not exactly competitive, hard work for a 262. Also given the much better level of maintenance and the quality of the components compared to the state of the Luftwaffe at the end of WWII, it's a fair bet that the Meteor Mk III may well have had the upper hand over the 262 in any meeting.
Plus - just imagine - 4x 20mm Hispanos clustered together in the nose! Talk about concentrated firepower! :)
Palef
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Originally posted by houndog
the 262 need a challenger .
Bi-1?
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Why not a He 162, considerd by Erich Brown to be the best gunplatform out of all the Jets he flew in WW2.
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Originally posted by Soviet
The only one I can see added is the Meteor which is inferior to the Me-262 and for what I know wasn't used in Europe, I heard it was just used to intercept V1s
And where then did it intercept V1s? Africa?
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Oh dear.
// fats
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GEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!
Like Animal said, get a freaking history book people, 262 saw lots of action during WW2 but there were never enough AT THE SAME TIME to make a difference. To even compare a post war Korean war jet with it is just plain silly!
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The first active unit to use the Me 262 was Kommando Nowotny which was formed at Achmer in September of 1944 and headed by Major Walter Nowotny. The unit became operational on the 3rd of October and claimed their first kill, a B-24, on October 7th. Nowotny began the practice of using prop-driven conventional fighters as cover against the roaming Allied fighters during the takeoffs and landings of the Me 262. The Me 262 was especially vulnerable as the turbojet's relatively low thrust resulted in slow acceleration. It took some time for the jet to get up to speed. But once there, no Allied aircraft could touch it! :D
Whatever the tactics used, the sheer number of allied planes involved made the jet attacks almost irrelevant. For instance, on March 18th III./JG 7 sent up 37 Me 262s to engage a force of 1,221 American bombers and 632 escorting fighters. This action marked the first time the new R4M rockets were used by the Me 262. In the end 12 bombers and 1 fighter were claimed with the loss of 3 Me 262s. Even on their biggest day, JG 7 flew 38 sorties, knocking down 14 US and British bombers and 2 fighters with a loss of 4 Me 262s. Their best efforts yielded less than a 1% loss for the Allies. Thus, we see the pattern that marked most German efforts in the latter part of the war. The Germans had many effective weapons but they were no match for the overwhelming Allied NUMERICAL superiority...
julle, CO =Flak Panzer Oilers=
http://www.stormbirds.com/
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me262.html
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I love the Chuck Yeager quote on someone's sig, something to the effect of: the first time I saw a jet, I shot it down
Chuck Yeager don't have quotes about Fw 190's? :)
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Originally posted by houndog
ok if we got the Nazis Me262 why not put the USA F-86 Sabre in the game?
what do u guys think?
i think that Nazi is enought ..... and fiat sux
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Heinkel He 162... poor enduranca about 15-30 min min at sea level. Quite good armament for such a small plane two MK108 2x50rds or two MG 151/20 2x120rds...
Lets say 150 perk points... :p
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Originally posted by houndog
ok if we got the Nazis Me262 why not put the USA F-86 Sabre in the game?
what do u guys think?
The Nazi 262 won the 1933 elections. He was later appoined a chancelor and kept the position until spring 1945.
The USA F86 was a kid at the time.
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first of all it wasnt a NAZI ME262 it was a RLM = Reichsluftfahrtministrium (if ya cant translate it show in yer historybook) it was the first yet and they produced over 1300 of it so it saw action!!!!
P-80 or P86 ====== KOREAAAAA
buy some history books and dont say something ya never knew
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Was watching a show on the history channel about the 262
It stated that the german 262 lead the way for other countrys making there own jets, at the END of the war, usa and russia scrambled to grab any 262's they could, from which the moden jets derived, jets like the sabre and mig.
so i would imagine the germans were the only nation to have active service jets in wwii
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The Brits definitately had operational Meteors at the end of the war Obear. They were too precious for a nation on the offensive to throw into air combat though.
-SW
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Jets are for girlscouts!
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P-51Ds are for Brownies!
-SW
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Yes other countries had Jets aswell, the Germans were far ahead of all others though, including the US and Brittish with the WW2 P80 and WW2 Meteor. US people said it them self that they were a couple of years behind the germans when it came to high speed flight. I imagine the US/Brittish engines were far more reliable and sturdy though, speically since the blades in the German Jumo engines were mostly built from aluminum.
The Mig 15 was almost an exact copy (was built after the plans with some modifications) of Kurt Tanks TA183 (never built in germany, just designs).
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Obear,
Be very cautious about getting facts from TV shows. The more I read, the shoddier those shows seem.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Yes other countries had Jets aswell, the Germans were far ahead of all others though, including the US and Brittish with the WW2 P80 and WW2 Meteor. US people said it them self that they were a couple of years behind the germans when it came to high speed flight. I imagine the US/Brittish engines were far more reliable and sturdy though, speically since the blades in the German Jumo engines were mostly built from aluminum.
The Mig 15 was almost an exact copy (was built after the plans with some modifications) of Kurt Tanks TA183 (never built in germany, just designs).
Hi Wilbus,
You're correct there. Just one addition:
US and British engineer was astonished and admitted Germans were years ahead in jet engine technology as well. The problem was that Germany was so short of strategic raw materials that they couldn't anymore build the jet engines from good materials. Thats' why the engines were problematic. They knew how to build good engines, but didn't have resources.
Just think that the British Meteor got into real serial production just before the war ended. Meteors had their share of problems too, and before anyone tells "they were used to hunt V-1s" - yes they were. But those were not mass built aircraft, but almost hand built one by one. AND had their share of problems. 262s and the German jet technology was in full speed at that time already.
One of the things that fancies me most is the Arady Blitz bomber's bombsight. WOW - that high tech!
What about the jet attacks on Rhein bridges.... A military historican lectured how the Luftwaffe had mass jet raids against the bridges. 50+ jets per raid. Must have been completely amazing sight. Arados glide bombers, 262s screaming...
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Rgr that Grendel :)
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The Gloster Metor never actually made it's combat debut untill the Korean War. In the hands of the Australian Air Force's 77 Squadron. I think they got 1 Mig Kill, Sgt George Hail if my memory serves me well. Proved to be totaly outmached by the Mig15 and was mainly used for ground attack.
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Anyone interested in Me262's should look up Adolf Galland former Inspector Genral of Fighter forces and Battle Of Britain Ace. He comanded JV44 at the wars end after falling from grace with good 'ole Adolf. They had plenty of 262 ops. Inculding ramming B26's in them!
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Meteor Mk III's did see combat. They joined the 2TAF in may '45 and flew ground attack sorties (they didn't see any A2A combat because there was not much of the LW left to fight).
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sabre was not a WWII plane it was korea era.... if f86 comes why not f16 or even an Xwingfighter or tie from starwars...get real please...:D
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US and British engineer was astonished and admitted Germans were years ahead in jet engine technology as well. The problem was that Germany was so short of strategic raw materials that they couldn't anymore build the jet engines from good materials. Thats' why the engines were problematic. They knew how to build good engines, but didn't have resources.
The Russians tried the Jumo, and even with access to strategic raw materials, couldn't make a decent engine out of it. The Mig 15 was powered by a copy of a Rolls Royce engine, the Nene iirc.
If the Jumo had been a good design, lacking only in materials, the US would have put them into production, instead of basing their post war engines on British technology.
The Jumo wasn't transformed into a successful engine anywhere in the world after the war. It's problems were not to do with it's manufacture, it was just poorly designed.
Axial flow engines didn't begin supplanting centrifugal flow engines until the 50s, they were just too unreliable with the technology available. The German's mistake was in abandoning centrifugal flow, which could have given them a lighter, more reliable, more efficient engine, and going all out for axial flow, which offered benefits in streamlining but nothing else.
Britain developed axial flow engines side by side with centrifugal ones, but only put the centrifugal ones in production during the war because they were superior at the time.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
If the Jumo had been a good design, lacking only in materials, the US would have put them into production, instead of basing their post war engines on British technology.
The JUmo used in 262 and 162 wasn't the only jet engine by the Germans. Just the first mass produced one.
And anyhow, the Allied engineers of the time admitted Germany was way ahead in jet engine technology. They did not specify one single engine but the overall technological level. And I quite think that those people knew exactly what they were talking about. Take a look at the more powerful Jumos or Heinkel's engines for example.
And why they should put Jumo into production anyway? Germans had better engines ready to go into production, but why settle for them - US, Britain and Soviets instead brought over a flood of German engineers and scientists instead, and used them to design even better engines, planes and so on. Hell, X-1 was based on a German design and who else but a German scientist took USA into moon. As mentioned MiG-15 was almost a straight Focke Wulf, US built plenty testbeds from German designs and used the results for later planes - heck even the Sabre was heavily influenced by them.
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hi grendl,
i think this is going into an flamewar soon :-)
but go on, its interesting.
well after all, axial engines went into the winners road.
radial....they lost:-)
i saw the BMW jet engine lately in the "deutsche museum"..next to it, there was a early radial engine by the brits i think.
what a difference in size.
habicht
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Originally posted by HABICHT
hi grendl,
i think this is going into an flamewar soon :-)
but go on, its interesting.
Why flame is something is true ;-)
Ernst Heinkel was pretty angry to KLM by the way. Heinkel had pretty good jet engines and you got to remember that he designed both the first jet powered airplane and the first jet fighter (He-280 IIRC). He had some really good engineers working on jet engine technology, but KLM forbid him to continue designing them - Heinkel was aircraft manufacturer, not a "technology developer".
Junkers on the other hand was a engine developer :/
By Heinkel's opinion he had jet engines ready for mass production for 1943, and some really good tech almost ready when he was forced to abandon them because "Jumo 003 and 004 and BMW's engines are much better and ready soon". Just that they weren't.
Let's see, yes. Heinkel's S 30 jet engine was heavily tested November 1942, when its performance was 500 kg continuing thrust and 750 kg takeoff thrust. "Its fuel usage per kg/thrust and power per cubic cm per thrust/kg was equalled even abroad not before 1947. During the test runs in 1945 we achieved 910 kg thrust with it."
Another engine, He S 11, was designed for 1300 kg thrust, which was after very big diffuculties achieved in 1944. They had major problems with creating some "diagonal wheel", hell if I know how to translate that. "But then it was the most powerful German jet engine - but too late. Only the Americans who captured the Zuffenhausen factory built a large numbers of that jet engine in my (Heinkel's) factories for test purposes."
If anything Heinkel's story tells a lot how the German Air Ministry continuously managed to thwarf good, promising technologies and spend time with changing resources and priorities from one project to next and then next, and often to wrong ones. Makes you think :O Wonderful little man that Erns Heinkel, by the way. I was so bloody surprised when I learned that he had designed the Hansa Brandenburg seaplane that was Finnish Air Force's mainstay during the 20s and the first plane FAF used with large numbers :) Designed during WW1. :) But thats OT. :)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The Jumo wasn't transformed into a successful engine anywhere in the world after the war. It's problems were not to do with it's manufacture, it was just poorly designed.
First Jumo 004-engines had 88kg of nickel in them. When they started serial production amount of nickel was dropped to 24,4kg (27,7%) due to war-economic reasons. Because of this Jumo's operational life lasted (at best) 8-10 hours. This and other sortages in raw materials also caused lot of flame outs and engine fires.
It's a simple fact that most of the problems with Jumo-engines were due to lack of proper raw materials.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
If the Jumo had been a good design, lacking only in materials,
Wmaker already ansered here as well, then I remembered that most of hhe Jumo 004 problems were simply the turbine blades, that had to be made of inferior metal because lack of the strategic materials - like nickel? Was it that metal that was needed for the blades, or something else? Anyway the turbine blades had to tolerate a lot of heat. The original blades could and did, and the engine life was helluwa much better. When serial production continued the blades had to be made of other materials, that wouldn't last - therefore the much shorter average engine life. Do remember that the engines weren't scrap after that - they were overhauled, turbine blades checked and replaced if needed and it was again ready to go.
"The Russians tried the Jumo, and even with access to strategic raw materials, couldn't make a decent
engine out of it. The Mig 15 was powered by a copy of a Rolls Royce engine, the Nene iirc."
Quotes to this and other issues elsewhere:
- After the war, the Jumo, designated the RD-10, was used in Russian jets, such as with the Yak-15, Yak-17, and SU- 9. The Jumo 004 also influenced the French, who used the Jumo 004 in the Arsenal VG.70, and the Sud-Ouest S.O.6000 Triton. aircraft.
- After WWII the Jumo 004 was still used by the Czech Air Force, which used the engine on the Avia S.91, which was originally the Messerschmitt Me 262 produced at Avia in Czechoslovakia during WWII. These Jumo 004 engines were produced at CKD at Prague.
- The Jumo 004 would prove to be the source of the Me 262's greatest weakness. The turbojet was at this time still in it's infancy and many technological hurdles had to be overcome. This resulted in a lengthy period of development which led to continued delay in the development and production of the Me 262. One of the problems was that the materials necessary for proper heat proofing were extremely rare in war-torn Germany. Alternate materials had to be used which resulted in engines that were less than reliable. In some cases, a brand new engine would suffer catastrophic failure during initial run-up. Even engines that worked right had a very short operational life. Most would only last for 12 hours of operation.
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After the war, the Jumo, designated the RD-10, was used in Russian jets, such as with the Yak-15, Yak-17, and SU- 9. The Jumo 004 also influenced the French, who used the Jumo 004 in the Arsenal VG.70, and the Sud-Ouest S.O.6000 Triton. aircraft.
Doesn't that list tell you something?
Where are the really successfull planes? The Mig 15s, the Sabres etc?
Another engine, He S 11, was designed for 1300 kg thrust, which was after very big diffuculties achieved in 1944. They had major problems with creating some "diagonal wheel", hell if I know how to translate that. "But then it was the most powerful German jet engine - but too late. Only the Americans who captured the Zuffenhausen factory built a large numbers of that jet engine in my (Heinkel's) factories for test purposes."
The RR Nene, that powered the Mig 15, was bench tested in 1944 at 2,270kg thrust. It was produced in huge number in the Soviet Union, and China continued producing it until 1979.
Germany undoubtedly had a lead in jet aircraft design, but they were behind in engine design.
First Jumo 004-engines had 88kg of nickel in them. When they started serial production amount of nickel was dropped to 24,4kg (27,7%) due to war-economic reasons. Because of this Jumo's operational life lasted (at best) 8-10 hours. This and other sortages in raw materials also caused lot of flame outs and engine fires.
It's a simple fact that most of the problems with Jumo-engines were due to lack of proper raw materials.
The first Jumos, with 88kg of nickel, were never intended as production engines. They were very heavy, and even the production 004B was too heavy at 720kg. For comparison, the RR Derwent was 420kg, and the much more powerfull Goblin (1,300kg thrust) weighed 680kg.
Hell, X-1 was based on a German design
Ever seen the earlier Miles M.52?
Germans had better engines ready to go into production, but why settle for them - US, Britain and Soviets instead brought over a flood of German engineers and scientists instead, and used them to design even better engines, planes and so on.
Which post-war engines were based on German designs?
Aircraft yes, Germany had a huge lead, but not in engine production.