Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fallen on January 27, 2000, 03:24:00 PM
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This was a .plan update by Epic Megagames' Brandon "Greenmarine" Rienhart (one of the biggest payed game developers in the industry, and sort of a personal hero of mine)
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Check out www.gamespy.com/stats. (http://www.gamespy.com/stats.) Notice that Half-Life has about ten thousand players online at any one time (during peak afternoon/evening). That's more than Quake 3 and UT combined. If you click on Half-Life,
it'll break the players down by mod. Counterstrike is always on top with approximately 60 to 70% of all Half-Life players (online) playing.
Minh Le, the author of Counterstrike, has effectively more people playing his game online at any one point in time than either Quake3 or UT. Consider this very closely if you work in the 3D industry. This is important.
I recently spoke on the Unreal Technology Page of a "renaissance" in garage game development. This is no more better demonstrated than by what Minh Le has achieved. His mod, a free product he's designed because he loves games, loves Half-Life, and loves the community, is selling tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of copies of Half-Life. (I know people who have purchased the game just to play Counterstrike!)
Valve is a smart and fast company. They've got quite a few kick bellybutton mod authors under exclusive contract. (I won't argue this point, its definitely in Valve's favor, but I think that highly successful mod authors like Minh Le could demand a very high price.) If you look at the December 1999 PC Data, you'll see that Half-Life is still selling strong (as is Op For, the recent awesome addon by Gearbox). The sales numbers for that month are nearly the same. Now, we know that a bunch of people already own Half-Life, so I would expect Half-Life core sales to be somewhat lower than the addon. Clearly Half-Life is still drawing in players.
I would argue that a large part of this continued success in sales is due to Valve brilliant and unrelenting support of the mod community. This is NOTHING NEW to Valve, but quite new to the rest of the industry. Valve bought up Team Fortress and gave them their dream: Team Fortress with full support, a new look, and Team Fortress 2 a completely new game. Valve is supporting Counterstrike too.
id Software did Extremities, but I would argue that the compensation they gave the mod authors was quite a bit less than they deserved. Obviously, as professional game developers, we know there is a big difference between "deserved" and "financially feasible." A company goes with what it can
get.
Here's what I want to say to the companies: Mod authors sell copies of your game. Supporting the mod community, making your game fully extensible, releasing programming tool kits, sells copies of your game. It has the _potential_ to sell a LOT of copies of your game. If you find a kid on the net who kicks bellybutton with game content, watch him. Talk to him. Hire him, if you think he's worthwhile.
Epic is built on developers and designers who had the initiative to approach the company. I believe strongly that this has contributed to Epic.
" Just seemed like a good read, and maybe something to consider.
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The difference is that they are selling a box, and HTC is selling time.
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Yes but as I posted before, if HTC supported user mods (e.g. planes, vehicles, terrain) then the users could contribute to the online arena.
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>(one of the biggest payed game developers in the industry, and sort of a personal hero of mine)
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Now you're really confusing me but nevermind.
Doesn't SDOE do pretty much what you ask for?
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."
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Grandad said ".. bonehead; just 'cause yah can do somethin; don't mean yah should"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Point taken Pyro.
Hang
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Well it just goes to show...
No matter where you go, there you are.
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Member of the Flying Elvis's...AH's most elite parachute team...
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Fallen
You still have the IQ of an Ice Cube!!!!!!
This is a very small market,and selling boxed game will not be profitable.
This is not a 1st person shooter,not Quake or Doom. So get with the program before th Ice Cube totally melts.
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EAW almost out sold quake2, AcesOE in its day out sold all the first person shooters out there at the time besides doom2 (duke3d, blakestone or whatever it was, been a while) and im sure b-17II will sell extremely well. Have you been to a computer game store lately? Theres a rack of sims about as big as my house (not very big but still *wink*) Theres WWII fighters, and Mig Alley, And Janes, and 12oclock high, and about 10 add ons for Microsoft Combat Simulator (is that game any good? Ive been wanting to check it out but no demo :P) And theres some other ones too but I cant recall the names. Also, every time im at EB or CompUSA or whatnot, some one is ALWAYS taking one of those flightsims up to the counter to get it. Its a very good market right now, Sims and RPGs and Online games are the big fad. HTC would make alot more money in the long run if they just made a better game and sold it on the shelves for 50 bucks a pop and let people play for 5 bucks a month.
Theyd also sell alot more copies if they allowed user modifacations ala some of LordHaHa's posts. There are alot of really good ideas (albiet abstract) floating around on these forums. Ill be willing to be thier all made by people under 28 who have a working knowledge of programming and the gaming industry, and who also play more than one type of game (you cant judge FPSs or RPGs or RTSs unless youve played them extensively. You also cant comment on the market size for flight sims when youve never taken your head out of your bellybutton to look around and what the rest of the world is doing. The 'online flight sim' community seems to be stuck in early 90s still.) It would be nice if HTC would capitalize on some of these ideas instead of being 'Primarly an Air Combat Sim"
PS. And pyro, He also gives most of that money to cancer research and homeless shelters and speaks at colleges to thier programming students about how the industry is, and where its going. He does ALOT of good with all that money that he gets. He also does what he does becuase he loves games and loves people enjoying themselves. Hed still be doing it even if they didnt pay him squat. Thats why ive always sort of admired him. Hes also a firm believer in Jello Biafra's "Maximum Wage" ideals. (who you might have seen on Politically Inncorrect at some point, making that Pro-Life jerk look like a total idiot.)
[This message has been edited by Fallen (edited 01-28-2000).]
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Once again, Fallen, I'm totally befuddled.
My take on this situation is this; if you don't have a standard that everyone can rely upon, the game won't work. The standard I am talking about is Pyro's data on the modeled a/c. I'm quite sure there are many talented people out there that can write code for terrific a/c and vehicles. Would their numbers be in line with HTC's? I doubt it. You think there's a problem with uber-planes now? Drop in a few user mods and listen to the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I don't think I ever heard HTC claiming to be after the mass market. This strategy is a choice, not an accident.
You should also investigate the profit margin of selling boxed games - probably not making as much money as you think. Why do you think many producers are dumping their CD lines and going all-online? (iEN?)
At the rate updates come on AH, CD's are obsolete even when they hit the shelves. Why pay $50 and have to immediately download the game over? Or would you prefer that we not have the frequent additions we have had.
I know; you think that is what mods will do. The trouble is those mods will always be suspect. I prefer the system we have now.
[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 01-28-2000).]
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"..you cant judge FPSs or RPGs or RTSs unless you've played them extensively. You also cant comment on the market size for flight sims when youve never taken your head out of your ass..."
You're a flaming hypocrite.
Begone trash.
Curly
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You cant judge flight sims unless youve played them extensively either. What constitues extensively? I believe playing 20-30 different titles over the course of 7 years constitutes extensively. So sit back down on your thumb and spin around on your oh-so-righteous pedestal, you overbearing diddly wit. All but maybe 10 of you are blatantly ignorant children (I dont care if your 55, the maturity of these posts doesnt exceed the pre-school level) Ive had maybe 2 actual responses from people that are well thought out and actually voice an opinion, which I entirely respect even if I think its wrong, Ill still debate with them, and ill still hold conversation over it. I also do so in a very respectful manor (to those who post even slightly intelligable replies) Ive gotten numerous emails saying both 'Yeah man right on' And 'Your wrong and heres why' All the 'Yeah man right on' emails have had 'I wont post this on the forum becuase I dont feel like listening to them whine' and I totally understand that. I can put up with a few ignorant responses here and there becuase I can accept that some people just dont know any better. Ex..."All those games are just castle wolfenstien with better graphics" In reference to titles such as Hidden and Dangerous and Halflife and Delta Force 2....the..first person shooter market. Which is so entirely ignorant I didnt even dignify a response, the man was obviously delusional, and has never played any of those above games, or possibly tried them for 3 minutes, and was confounded by thier great graphics and gameplay. (like an old farmer not wanting to mess with '"them new fangled aero-contraption-flying-pesticidal-thingys"' Any ways im sick of ranting, you people are obviously sick, and obviously stuck in some sick sad corporate brown nosing world. I hope you all choke to death on your wallets and fat filled lunch breaks and 9 to 5 dead end roadkill. I hope you keep on going figuring this is the best way to do things, and not defend a signle ideal, and be totally entirely empty pathetic people. I lastly hope some large, blue mohawked punk, throws a brick through your office window and drags you out kicking and screaming and beats you on the street, god knows you could all use it.
bananas.
Out.
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Hey Fallen-don`t go away mad,just go away!
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JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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Fallen,
If you ARE truly willing to engage intelligence when you encounter it, please consider:
1. You are HERE, playing Aces High, and the deal is the deal. The thirty bucks is the thirty bucks. The code is closed. The FM's are HT's to tweak. Are you in, or out, mate?
2. All those other games are cool. The people that make them are admirable. The fans that play them are dedicated. Go forth, my son, and play them.
3. Your arguments are undone by your willingness to engage in the very same language and behavior of those who inspire your contempt, rendering you a thug. Peace, brah!
-Spitting Up Chunks of Righteous Youth,
Heckel
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by Heckel (edited 01-28-2000).]
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http://www.psychotherapy-online.com/ (http://www.psychotherapy-online.com/)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fallen, has it ever crossed your mind that you are very difficult to understand. You say a lot of things and have strong opinions, yet you kick in all directions at the same time.
Most of us are not looking for the best game. We are not even the slightest interrested in the best game. What we want is the best online flight sim experience. FM, historically correct ACs, the "flying feeling", the ability to do the same maneuvers the real planes did and being able to do it with hundreds of others is what we consider the most important (well, i can't speak for all, but thats why i like this sim).
Before you start to kick in all directions, you should at least TRY to understand what this sim is all about.
Bod
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>and fat filled lunch breaks and 9 to 5 dead end roadkilland fat filled lunch breaks and 9 to 5 dead end roadkill<
Perhaps he is a Vegan? Maybe he just needs a little red meat?
....and all of us come to a "dead end" sooner or later, now don't we? <g>
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Yes, except for the colorful descriptions of your wishes, Fallen, you seem to be just as immature (emotionally) as those you loathe.
I agree with Bod, I sometimes am following you one second only to have you take a jarring step into a deranged rant. It's like you're normal one second, then your evil twin pushes you aside and types a while. Perhaps Fallen/FaL-N? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I think that fallen has me pegged.
fat filled lunches ...check
9-5......well 6-3 but I asume that its the same to fallen...check
I just looked out...no guys with mohawks...
Do you think maybe he had a bad experince with guys with mohawks...would explain alot..
Thank god he didnt mention anything about how much beer I drink.
I cant read anything by this guy without wanting to insult him...
Does he acctualy fly in the game...must be a knight...they are all uptight about things...
prone to hero worship ect.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pongo
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Pyro, I do think that censorship is a most serious matter and not to be undertaken lightly, however, In the case of Fallen and his indignant, self-rightous confusion, I think it's high time the plug was pulled,
This drivel (big word look it up fallen)
has no bearing on anything except perhaps the wasting of bandwidth, and being among the non-cable crowd that is something I take far more seriously than the drool from some people's mouths.
And Fallen, do not attempt to essay an attack
on my person, 'cause 1%'rs don't give a rats a*s about some blue mohawked wannabe.
Enough, back to basics, When we gonna see a German bomber HTC?
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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>and fat filled lunch breaks and 9 to 5 dead end
To many sessions of Mr. Biafra?
And ya, I like some of what Jello has to say but ....
Harder core than thou for a year or 2 then its time to get a real job.
PS; Pyro that is cruel. LOL!
[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 01-30-2000).]
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*Twitch*
Any ways. Look. Its very simple for me to understand, and no one else seems to. Thats why its so freaking irritating to see others just not get it.
I know people arent always interested in what every one else wants to call the 'best' game. But I also know that people do want to get the most from an experiance, its human nature. I know what HTC must have gone through when they started up, I know they must have finacial problems, I know they must work very hard. Ive been there and done that, and made alot of stupid mistakes that didnt get wonderful dream (laugh) out to the public. Now I see them hitting pitfalls and problems down the line if they want to pursue other types of games or ventures, and I seem them hitting pitfalls with the game theyre currently working on. Alot (if not all) of my older posts were much quieter and sedate and well thought out, but as time progresses and people dont hear what im saying (infact misquote it directly) I start getting alittle peeved. So I post a few things here and there trying to once agian appeal to reason and get flammed or insulted by a bunch of wanks ive never met and who have never met me. That gets to me every time, and I go on and on ranting trying to annoy them as much as possible. (See there I go agian, I think I just lost every one, anyways) And yes to those of you who commented on the strong thoughts/beliefs, I have them and I hold them very dear. Id happily kick someones head in who tried to tell me it was stupid to be idealistic (and I have too, Zoom in on my lengthy police report...touche'?) and that my thoughts or views were invalid just becuase they didnt agree with them. They dont have to agree, I really dont care, I dont agree with most people myself, but I dont go around flamming thier ideas (just thier life styles, its easier to yell at a group than an individual) at this point I really dont give a hoot about the game, or the company or even the longevity of its existence. I just want people to understand that I, (enter name, state, and photo copied self identity) am perfectly sane, though easily angered and very defensive, and will fight to the death (in a shakespearian sort of way...uhh? right. Cue to the merrymen in the forest still running from the Sheriff) when my views and ideals are brought forth and put on trial. I can also understand its hard for you all to follow me, and probally hard to interput all the mindless drivel *cough cough* that flows throughout the whole of the message (any one actually finish the Fountainhead? What are the last 20 pages like? It got boring.) But really it just is that, that being mindless drivel that flows throughout the whole of the message. See...there it was, did yah miss it? Probally. Any ways. Im perfectly sane *cough pyro cough* and dont need psychiatric help or anything like that. I just wanted to you all to see my point of view, and accept it (wether or not you agreed was up to you) and learn something, when I got flammed endlessly I got really really upset over it (anger management class here I come) and reverted to my own 'blue mohawk' days, and started 'kicking in every direction' as a defensive measure as to try and save some personal face (sorry I couldnt care less what you all think of me, only what I think of me, which at this momment isnt a whole helluva lot reading over my posts) So in the end (cut to it damn you, now now) Yes yes...I will. So hush up Fal-N (its actually Sid by choice, or Thomas by birth) Anyways I apologize, it might not mean anything to any one, but I do. Ill try and make it so you hear the least amount from me over the next 4-5 months, give you a chance to forget. Ill probally be paying for aceshigh (with a different handle to avoid annoyance) as ive been flying lately with a different handle (saved a few of your arses too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) *cough JelloB-aifra cough* Anyway. Bye now.
Sidney S. Atkins
Fallen@smashedupsanity.com
PS. Chisel, probally seen you at one of his many spoken words then. I like most if not all of what he has to say, always have, has my full admiration. And who cares about hardcore (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Its all crap nowadays any now.
[This message has been edited by Fallen (edited 01-30-2000).]
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Fallen-
I personally never have a problem with anyone's opinion. I express mine freely, too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I don't know that I would view all the responses you received as flames per se, many, like me, were just a bit confused.
Of course, I may disagree with a person's opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) That shouldn't be construed as an attack. Thanks for the clarification. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The point is, no matter what you do there are people with different variations making more money off it. This is true in my business or anyone elses. So why don't we "copycat" differetn success formulas? Well in my case it's because I like what I do, and I don't like what they do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Is it so hard to understand that perhaps HTC's business model is something that suits them, their personality, or their desire? This is what they want to do and they're doing it, to hell with what other people are doing.
Oh and PS, the first post was interesting - I always enjoy reading on how others acheived their success - I'm sure pyro does as well. Beats me how this thread got this ugly.
[This message has been edited by Kats (edited 01-30-2000).]