Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BotaBing on May 03, 2002, 05:54:43 PM
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One of the major factors that made the vehicle aspect of this game playable was the fact that you could go afk for a few minutes while you made the long drive to some base.
I dont care if you really need to make trees able to block machine gun fire, but blocking AP shells? killing tanks?
Its really unrealistic and makes the vehicle aspect much less fun to play.
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I really cant believe that people get kill/score from someone who runs into a tree. Tonight JoyFul got THREE kills off me running into trees when it didnt even look like i was close enough to hit it.
The scoring problems with this game, combined with tanks exploding from hitting trees at 1mph really really needs to be fixed.
Its hard to take a game seriously when trees make tanks explode hitting them at 1mph.
Combined with the fact that you gun AND drive, its just too easy to hit the BILLIONS of trees.
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I have hit maybe 2 trees during 5 months of AH. Hardly a problem..
If you want to leave your tank running while youre afk you get what you ask for.
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especially when u spawn in front off a obstacle
wich should disable ur tracks but not blow up ur tank :eek:
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A tank would probaly knock a tree down anyway!
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I think of trees as representing anti-tank mines that I know are there. The defensive areas near towns would probably have been mined anyway. Another idea could be, trees cause no explosions, but there are mine fields where you either hit one or you don't. Maybe have an M3 that deploys mine laying troops, who scatter and plant mines around the town. You choose the pattern in which these mines are deployed, i.e. random, straight line, zig zag, etc. Mines could have a 30 minute life span, and would be visible to friendlies by a small red glowing dot on the ground. Mine fields would show up to nme as a more generalized glowing area. To counteract the mines, bring along an M3 with troops who either locate and disarm them (up to ten mines in an area equivalent to resup capability), or capture the town...but not both. Could use a key command to direct the troops' action. Just a thought.
Les
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Easy solution look where your vehicle is going..
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
especially when u spawn in front off a obstacle
wich should disable ur tracks but not blow up ur tank :eek:
This is a problem I've had several times. Spawn at the remote point on a shoreline somewhere and be wedged into one of the tank traps. Only choice is to get out and spawn again, and hope for better results.
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It's a question of realism, this is after all a simulation isn't it? Trees don't kill tanks.
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I am not a ground person at all, but I have to agree. Tanks should never be killed by trees.
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AH also lacks ditches, boulders and several other things which either naturally or man-built stoped tanks during WW2.
So as long as we lack natural obstacles and landmines, I think that the murderous trees can stay in place. Otherwise MA will be just one big playground for tanks with nothing to stop them except bullets.
I do agree that trees killing tanks are wrong but keeping above in mind, theyre ok.
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HTC doesn't model weather effects that kept aircraft grounded in Europe, so by your logic clouds should kill airplanes? :p
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This is also an issue about gameplay. It is simply NOT fun whatsoever to get dropped right on top of a tree with no choice but to lose your tank and suffer a death.
Being able to go afk while making the TWENTY minute trips to some towns was one of the things that made the game playable. Trees are a horrible addition to the game.
Dodging trees isnt part of the ground vehicle gameplay that attracted me to AH. I can find better tank simulations lots of places. This is a combat simulation.
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No streak but weather can't be compared to ground obstacles which are always and everywhere. Air also lacks invisible killers like mines..
GV modeling is incomplete yes.. For example if you drive over a piece of a house at a destroyed town (that lies flat on the ground) it kills you instantly..
I think a certain level of porkage is required however to stop gv players of taking over the fights.
I wouldn't want to see 20 osty attacks on towns for example since there are no effective ways to kill them. I consider it a suicide attack if I dive on an osty in order to strafe it or bomb it. With 20 of them.. well you get the picture.
There are only 2 things that make me wary when I'm 1:1 on arena and those are buff gunners and flaks.
Ostwind had over 2:1 k/d ratio in the arena. Considering of the amount of usage and the newbies dying in it, it's a helluva lot.
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I like the trees and I think they add to the game play value, including them killing your vehicle when you collide with them. You actually have to look and think about where you're going now, and if you find yourself in a situation where you need to man the guns, it's time to hit the brakes.
SOB
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Yeah, cuz none of the vehicles in WWII would shoot while they were driving.
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Originally posted by BotaBing
Yeah, cuz none of the vehicles in WWII would shoot while they were driving.
Well if it is a problem, you can always get a gunner to join you. Just don't hit them trees, simple solution.
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simple solutions are very often simple thinking. I didnt ask how to avoid it, I said its a bad feature from a gameplay perspective.
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Originally posted by BotaBing
sigh...
Yeah, cuz none of the vehicles in WWII would shoot while they were driving.
Hey toejamhead, how many of those vehicles were occupied by a single person at the time?
SOB
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Who you callin toejamhead? I know you arent talking to me.
As far as your point ~ yeah EXACTLY. How can you be expected to gun AND drive?
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Sid - tanks were here long before killer trees/bushes/sheep(?) - and they were NOT taking over the fight!!! Just *touching* a tree ending in an explosion is really silly!
Ground-to-object-collision modelling is not very refined in AH. Could need a brushup there! Goes for planes as well... ditches etc.!
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Why do you guys try to make excuses for the lameness of a GV instantly being killed when it mearly touches something? That is one of the dumbest and anti-promotional aspects of using a GV.
Today, I was in an LVT going to capture A54 on the isles map. I was about 100 yards from the map room after driving for about 15 minutes. The entire town was leveled.
I was just about to stop and let troops out when my LVT suddenly was killed. I touched nothing, but may have ran over a wall which was laying on the ground.
Another LVT was sitting right there and saw the whole thing. AA had not come up, there were no enemies anywhere near us. The othr LVT did not die and asked me what happened.
Becoming instantly dead in a GV with NO warning, nothing to actually cause a death and after spending so much time getting so close to target is so frustrating, that it detracts from my gameplay enjoyment.
Another time, I had an M3 I was driving actully fly up into the air and flip over when I got too cloase to a building that was destroyed.
HTC, it's time to fix GV kill models. Instadeath for no reason sucks.
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Originally posted by SOB
I like the trees and I think they add to the game play value, including them killing your vehicle when you collide with them. You actually have to look and think about where you're going now, and if you find yourself in a situation where you need to man the guns, it's time to hit the brakes.
SOB
Exactly SOB, but you shouldn't have to. IRL there was adriver and a gunner. Yes, you can get someone to gun while you drive, but just driving a GV and not even getting to shoot is worse than C47 flying.
If you hit a tree, it should make you stop. Not die instsantly. Part of stying alive in a GV is moving across the attack of an aircraft, as to try and spoil his shot. If you have to stop, you are a sitting duck.
GVs have NO WHERE to use as cover or hiding. The one thing that could provide cover (trees) is the biggest hinderance to driving GVs in the first place.
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hitting a tree : Should just stop ur vechile.
The punishment u have to climb ur way down to the drivers cockpit where u must put ur gear in reverse and drive ur way around the tree, than climb back to ur gunner station to do ur thingy.
tank obtacles : this disables ur track or tires the punishment is u cannot drive anymore until someone drops vechile supplys near u.
very simple and fair solutions i would say
mines ?
yes , but these should look like flat dishes laying on the ground
for gameplay sake u should be able to see em and drive around em.
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Originally posted by mrsid2
No streak but weather can't be compared to ground obstacles which are always and everywhere. Air also lacks invisible killers like mines..
Weather very much can be compared to ground obstacles. Ask somebody that flies USAF fighter jets in Europe and find out how many days a year they are actually clear to takeoff due to weather. As for invisible killers, troops all over the ground with rifles and 0.50 cals are just that, golden bbs from unseen ground fire even got plenty of F-105s and F-4s and Vietnam. Another invisible killer in the air that gets airliners as well: wind shear ;)
My point is that I agree with the original post: there is nothing good about trees killing tanks. The only effect it has is to force someone to sit there and bore himself dodging trees. The tree should maybe stop all forward motion making the ground impassable if the trees are close enough together... but not kills.
As for saying it is the same as having mines? What good are mines that are easily seen? Since when were mines everywhere?
I submit that tanks exploding when they hit trees is neither realistic nor fun. Minefields should be simulated by some other means if that aspect is required or desired. Removing the exploding trees from ground combat will not adversely affect anyone else (I fail to see how the exploding trees are preventing overwhelming base assaults other than by boring people to death) and will make the game better for some, so why not fix it?
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Originally posted by Midnight
Exactly SOB, but you shouldn't have to. IRL there was adriver and a gunner. Yes, you can get someone to gun while you drive, but just driving a GV and not even getting to shoot is worse than C47 flying.
If you hit a tree, it should make you stop. Not die instsantly. Part of stying alive in a GV is moving across the attack of an aircraft, as to try and spoil his shot. If you have to stop, you are a sitting duck.
You're right, and to be honest, I rarely stop when needing to gun. But I may slow down a bit if I have the chance to, and I definitely pay attention to where I'm going, what's in front of me, and I use my rudders to steer. It adds another dimension to driving the vehicles that I think is good. I enjoy it, and since I rarely care when I die, it wouldn't bother me if I hit a tree.
At the root of my opinion is this: Something should happen when you hit a tree. I don't have a problem with exploding because I believe that once your vehicle is unable to move it's pretty much useless and it's time to get another one. I also haven't had a problem avoiding trees...the "forests" aren't that dense.
So, what do you want to happen when a vehicle hits a tree? Nothing? Some damage? What would the result be in real life if you took a M16/M3/M8/LVT-2/LVT-4/Panzer and ran it full speed into a tree?
As for your reference to vehicles dying in the town around building debris, I agree. The way it works is not at all consistent and it's often hard to tell just where a building was. But, in my mind that is a seperate issue from the trees.
SOB
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Normally, one of two things is going to happen in real life when a WW2 sized tank hits a tree:
1) the tree is small enough to collapse.
2) the vehicle will slam to a halt.
Either one could result in stress to the treads... don't know how commonly trees were hit and how often they threw a tread.
Lighter vehicles would tend more to halt, and probably take physical damage to the armor plating.
I have seen what happens when a 1975 ford econoline 150 van hits a group of mailboxes anchored in a 4x4 wood frame set in concrete head-on/dead-center at about AH vehicle speeds (25 to 30 mph):
The wood frame was largely undamaged and didn't move a bit. the van came to a stop. The front bumper and hood/grill had a centerline crease about 1/2" to 1". The van's frame and suspension were undamaged and it continued to be fully drivable without any repairs for years to come since all of the damage was merely cosmetic.
I imagine an armored vehicle of any type is sturdier than that van, and being heavier might have fractured the wood instead. If you watch the video of the M60 tank (about 55 to 60 tons) that was stolen in San Diego about 7 years ago, you will see that it mercilessly plowed through everything including an RV and several parked cars with no damage until it threw a tread crossing a highway median.
Tree stumps would be a bigger threat to a tank than any standing tree, since it might throw a tread.
If someone can provide one photo of a tank irrevocably immobilized by a tree (due to damage other than throwing a tread), then I could possibly accept tanks exploding on trees in AH. But in all my years of reading and talking to real tankers... never heard of such a thing.
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Well I'm pretty sure most WW2 time tanks stoped to shoot, they didn't have rangefinding systems and automacy found in AH tanks. Shooting on the run would probably result in a miss after a miss, leading to the tanks death when the stoped enemy places a well aimed shot to it. Anyway, that's my logic.
I often run in gv's while I shoot.. Yet I almost never die of collision to a tree. Why? I look around and use the rudder to turn when I come too close to a tree. If I'm in a tank that has limited visibility I mostly stop, that's the best way to get hits landed anyway.
As what comes to the town piece deaths, after 2 deaths I learned not to drive inside the town but release the troops from outside and voila! no insta-deaths anymore.
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So we should disable auto-pilot for planes - most didn't have it in RL and pilots cannot afford to take a leak during climbout... :rolleyes:
Sid - sure one can adjust to any gameplay flaw in order to avoid the negative effect (or exploit a loophole for example) - but that's not the point!!!
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Kirin come on.. The tanks already have close spawn points as a concession, that's even better than the autopilot in planes because you can jump to position without the danger of being killed afk.
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It's not about how to get around this problem offourse u will learn how. U don't have to be good like u to drive around trees.
This is about gameplay, it is just fair&realistic and gives more sense when u get stopped by a tree and not blown up.
To me it's just a detail on the game that is not designed properly.
We all can improvise but that is not always the right solution.
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WWII Ground vehicles did not have to stop to shoot. If a tank was going for a long distance, then usually it would stop, but for short range, shooting on the fly happened. Not to mention the hull gun and machine gun
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One thing here is in RL tanks certainly did not fire whilst on the move unless it was a charge accross open ground where they would fire smoke or HE into the lines they attacked.However this was HIGHLY innaccurate as they had no stablisers like modern tanks.
The usual practice was pull to a stop fire and then move, so AH having the same as this because you are a single player really is more realistic if anything.
As for hitting trees its really not that bad is it? admitedly the old way of leaving your tank rolling whilst you went off for a drink is missed by me but its hardly a game killer having to avoid trees.
As for what midnight said about the wall on the floor at towns I totally agree it should in no way kill the tank.Tanks could roll through houses so a broken wall is hardly going to blow a tank to peices is it? :)
I think tanks should actually be able to crash through buildings.It would be a lot of fun if rolling through a hanger wall caused the hanger a lot of damage.thus saving on the amount of shells needed to finish it off.
for me the biggest problem with GVs is the effectiveness of the HE shells.I saw someone put on the BB that 15 HE shells took down a hanger! well for me its more like 50 odd!!
is this a problem my end? how many shells kill a hanger?
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In order to accurately shoot with the main gun in a tank, you DO have to stop, thats not the issue.
The issue is that trees shouldnt explode you.
As far as HE shells, yes I think they suck too. They used to be 20 HE shells to do a hangar, which is pretty pathetic compared to how fast an osty can take one down ~ around 200 shells for that i believe.
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During this tour alone, just a few day, I have had the following problems in ground vehicles:
8-10 times ~ Someone gets a kill because I run into a tree and they happened to be in the area. Is that really good gameplay and scoring? Half the times I didnt even directly hit the tree, I glanced a branch or its side, etc.
Several times ~ I died because I was placed directly into a tree when I launched the vehicle. There was no way to get out of hitting it.
Then there's always the best move ~ being launched onto a grade that you cannot climb, and rolling backwards into a tree and dieing without any control over your vehicle whatsoever.
I was gone from AH for about a year I think, and coming back I have noticed that almost none of the problems with scoring, ground vehicles/bugs are fixed ~ in fact, due to trees the ground vehicle game is actually less enjoyable now :(
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So you're saying you do nothing else in AH except drive vehicles?
There are plenty of better games just for that. AH is still a combat air simulation..
I haven't died to a collision with anything for months in ground vehicles.. In air is a different story.
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I play aces high for the variety, because its WWII and mostly because some good friends play it. Of all its features, what I like most is the ground vehicle VS air targets aspects.
Although I love planes and love flight simulations, the missing "seat-of-your-pants" aspect makes it a bit difficult for me to really get into flight sims.
Either way, that's not an excuse for having some obvious problems and bugs with the GV aspects of the game.
You should not be placed onto steep grades and automatically start rolling backwards. Nor should hitting a tree at 1mph cause you to explode. Nor should it give a "kill victory" to someone else who happened to be in the area while you suffered the result of unfortunately bad design problems.