Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on May 06, 2002, 01:33:36 PM
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I have just been shaking my head about the growing number of people that firmly belive that the whole jew massacre business was just a big fake. Well, there is strong propaganda about it from neo-nazi organisations, and while the distance in time increases and less people are alive that remember it, it may only be natural for the young and ignorant to fall for it.
I saw something in the newspaper the other day that triggered me to write this. It regarded the myth of various objects being manufactured from the remains of slaugtered jews, such as wallets, lampscreens and the famous "soap".
Here you go:
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So, this is a wallet made out of human skin.
The story of the object is as follows.
Late in the war, a group of Gestapo men were captured by polish partisans. One of the officers threw an object away from him, but it was spotted and caught by one of the partisans. That was this wallet. The text reads: Cigarettentasche aus echten menchenleder. (Cigarette case made of real human skin).
Resent forensics (spelling?) confirmed it is authentic!
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Sick stuff....
I hope the human race never forgets.:(
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It is said (and I fear its true) that Himmler had a room where the complete inventory was made by human things - like chairs of bones and so on.
But the Nazis were not the first who "enjoyed" these perversities and I fear that they are not the last.
There are many cultures of history which are respected as improtant high-cultures who have done similiar cruel perversities.
Only to take the skinning-example:
The Babylonian and Assyrian foot archers used human skin for their bowcases they often cut off and skinned the arm of a victim and used this with the fingers still hanging at the end of the bowcase.
And if I remember right US officials paid money for the delivery of a scalp of an indian. If I dont lost my anatomical knowledge the scalp of a human being is also some kind of skin...
I know that there are people who claim that there havent been concentration camps in Germany or that not so many people died there. I never understood these people - it is a historical fact that these camps existed and its not important for me if 1 or 5 or 10 millions have been killed inside these camps. Even if only 1 person have been killed inside such an installation it would become a place of perversity.
Its also a fact that the concentration-camps were not an invention by the Nazi Germans but first used a century before by the British in their war against the Bures in South-Africa.
And even after WW2 there have been concentration camps throughout the world. Its not necessary to have gas-chambers and crematories to keep such pervert and shameful places running.
So : We should try to remember all these dark places and events of human history.
Its sad that there is not a single nation or culture in this world which had not been involved in crimes and barbarism during its history.
And after we thought about what humans were and are able to do to other humans because of stupid definitions or fanatism we maybe should look what is happening today and in the future.
We cant change the past - but at least we should try not to ignore what happens today throughout the world.
Not only the Neo-Nazis are denying perversities which had happened in human history...
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Heard this analogy on Dennis Miller's show the other day(I paraphrase badly):
Free speech is like a playground full of kids. The only way to find out who is the wimp is to let everyone play. When the neo-nazi kids and KKK kids get there butts kicked in the public playground enough it will be apparent which are the strong ideas, and which are the weak wimps.
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Babek,
I think you mean the Boers...and in fact many of them were shipped to Bermuda as POWs. They were not put into anything like the Concentration Camps that were built by the Germans in WW2 while they were here.
That is not to say that the Brits allowed the Boers to sip Pina-Coladas on the beach, or anything....they were put to work. But not worked to death like slaves. Quite a few died while in captivity, but that was due to Yellow Fever outbreaks that killed a comparative number of British soldiers who were guarding them.
What you say though, for the most part, is true. There have been many examples in history of this type of behaviour. That does not mean that we can put it down to a "detail of history" to paraphrase Mr. Le Pen.
As soon as you start to trivialise what happened in WW2 by claiming that it was done before and "why are you making a big deal of it now" you start to walk a dangerous path for the future.
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Its also a fact that the concentration-camps were not an invention by the Nazi Germans but first used a century before by the British in their war against the Bures in South-Africa.
Wrong. They weren't 'death' camps - they weren't used for the sole purpose of exterminating a race or group of people.
They were refugee camps or 'concentration' camps in the literal sense of the word - the Boer civilian population was forced to live in the camps, after a scorched earth policy was used to put pressure on the Boer armed forces operating in the field against the British. Disease and lack of food killed thousands, however.
There was a lot of controversy back in Britain at the time, regarding the high death rates. Eventually, there was such an outcry that something was done and the death rates were brought down to levels lower than those in major British cities.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Wrong. They weren't 'death' camps - they weren't used for the sole purpose of exterminating a race or group of people.
They were refugee camps or 'concentration' camps in the literal sense of the word - the Boer civilian population was forced to live in the camps, after a scorched earth policy was used to put pressure on the Boer armed forces operating in the field against the British. Disease and lack of food killed thousands, however.
There was a lot of controversy back in Britain at the time, regarding the high death rates. Eventually, there was such an outcry that something was done and the death rates were brought down to levels lower than those in major British cities.
So basically, the Nazi's were more humane about it than the British with the Boers, the latter choosing a slow but certain death.
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@Curval
Right - I meant the Boers - sorry for my bad English but it is was not the 1st or 2nd foreign language I learned so I could not express some points out in a proper way.
I saw in the last year a report of Discovery (if I remember right) and it was there discribed by a british historical scientist that the British had camps in South Africa where females and children of the Boers were held.
These camps were called concentration camps and the food for the people inside was reduced systematicly - so the people inside suffered and especially many children died. This was used to force the Boers (who were fighting with their succesful hit-and-run-tactic) to surrender.
If you now prove that this report is a total nonsense, I will accept this.
What I want to show was the fact that humans have done crimes all time - and this could not be denied.
Its a really sad fact that even we, the people of the new millenia, - after 1000nds of years of civilisation and history - still have such crimes in our times.
I have never trivilized historical crimes but I also cant accept that the focus is only on one detail.
There is an horrendreous amount of crimes which humans have done to others.
I am sad about ALL these things which happened - and I am much more sad about the fact that I have to accept that humans obviously never change.
Throughout our whole history we have made crimes. The technical advance and civilisation doesnt made us to stop these things - instead we used the technical advantages to perfect the death machines.
For me the Babylonian who is skinning a human victim with his primitive knife is the same barbarian as the 20th century SS-man who does the same with a scalpell.
And this is the true sad thing: I fear that we humans will never change - so the sentence "Lets hope that this will never happen again" is only a hopeless statement:
The fact is that it HAS happened again.
Just look at the crimes of Pol Pot - he and his Red Khmer/Khmer Rouge have installed concentration camps throughout his country until he was stopped.
Its really sad fact, but I think its the way we humans treat each other.
As long as we could not respect all of us as equal we will continue this path - and its in our nature to try to be superior to others and so have a lesser respect for a part of the human society.
And this part becomes a target for attacks which could degenerate to perversities we have had to see during the Nazi reign.
Again I have to apologize for my bad English but I hope you could read out what I mean.
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There was democratic debate about the British forces conduct which led to improvements.
I don't think the Nazis were partial to that type of thing.
Surprisingly, Ripsnort, it was the liberals who were attacking the government's position on the camps.
The motivation behind it was pretty disgraceful, but I think it was of militaristic, rather than ideological or racial, intent.
I think out of 200,000 'refugees' some 30,000 died.
Death rates were eventually reduced to be comparable with cities like Glasgow, if I remember rightly.
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Babek...don't sweat the English thing...I speak one language...English....I admire those who have the capacity for more.
I will defer to Dowding on this one...my knowledge is limited to the Boers that were brought here. I don't know enough about the "camps" in South Africa, to be fair.
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Well then, Boer camps or no Boer camps, I think (and hope) that there were never camps anywhere in the magnitude of the Nazi extermination camps.
I have been to Dachau, which was "just" a concentration camp. It is just HUGE. I have also been to Auswitch and Birkenau. Now Birkenau (often referred to as Auswitch II) is the one that tops it, it is simply GIGANTIC. Total area is about 1,7 square km, full of huts, each and every stuffed to the ceiling with people, and those were just the people who were intended as work labour until they could be used no more.
And then there were so many other camps.
I just think it is so striking to hear people say it is a fake. Or that this or that before or after WW2 is completely comparable.
Actually, I think nobody ever even got close the the Nazis. The whole business was about to eliminate approx 11 million people leaving hardly a trace. The camps were not built to last, and some had alrerady disappeared before the end of the war.
It was all planned to detail and supposed to go on in secrecy without the rest of the world spotting it.
And it almost worked to the full extent. There are hardly no jews left in Europe at all. Just Jewish semetaries, rotting down and full of weeds for there is no one there to look after them.
There may have been massacres to millions going on in the world, as well as tyranny leading to hunger and so, some of wich even managed to reach the death numbers of the holocaust. I just think we can't overlook the way in which the Holocaust was carried out, and what that should tell us.:(
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Originally posted by Dowding
Wrong. They weren't 'death' camps - they weren't used for the sole purpose of exterminating a race or group of people.
wow where are you from ?? moon ?
you bloody idiot those "camps" are still here, wish you to see some movies from these days , you can visit them any time
just come to Poland, Czech
and if you are looking for some new, then visit Russia
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What about the Turks and Armenians? Mankind will never be satisfied until it destroys itself. You will always have this perverse behavior. It makes you sick.
Jay
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Orel...He's talking about the Brit camps used in South Africa during the Boar wars. NOT about the Nazi concentration camps used in WW2.
xBAT
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Originally posted by Angus
Actually, I think nobody ever even got close the the Nazis.
I dont agree with this.
True - the Nazis organised their perversity very well and built installations where the people were killed systematicly.
But they dont differ in they way of doing from others who have done similiar things in history.
They only used more advanced technology.
And by using this technology they killed millions of people.
But just an example how "effective" other races in history have been.
In the Iran of today there was in ancient time a high-culture - the Empire of Elam with their great capital city of Susa.
They had a civilisation which lasted centuries.
But they also had one mighty enemy: The Assyrians.
This (also advanced) culture under leadership of their great warrior-king Assurbanipal finally won the last battle against the Elamites. They nearly killed all Elamites, destroyed systamaticly their infrastructure, poisended their land and left back to Assur and Ninive - leaving a small percentage of shattered elamite survivors in their ruins.
And when the iranian people came from north they had not to take the territory by force.
The Elamites - once the mighty Empire in this region - just vanished.
The few survivors were integrated in the following iranian empires of the Medes and later of the Persians.
The Assyrians were succesful to eliminate a whole race.
And this is only one example how one human group/nation/race was succesful to destroy completely another one.
They used sword, spears, bows instead of concentration camps and gas but their pervert goal was the same - to exterminate another race, just because they were members of the other race.
And the sad fact is that they were not the only one in history who has been succesful in doing so.
The Nazis failed - although they had all their armies, their power, their systematicly organisation of building this killing installations.
A small - but nevertheless good aspect - of this part of history.
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Originally posted by babek-
True - the Nazis organised their perversity very well and built installations where the people were killed systematicly.
But they dont differ in they way of doing from others who have done similiar things in history.
So far as I know, no one else in history has ever done this.
Ever.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
So far as I know, no one else in history has ever done this.
Ever.
- oldman
Aztecs did it systematically, they just didn't have the ovens.
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OK - I try to describe it in a simplier way:
The plan of the perverts was and is the elimination of another group (other race, other religion or whatever idiotic reason ).
There have been and are different methods - like killing them all with blade weapons in ancient times or (after technical developments and inventions have been done through "civilisation") with special installations - like the concentration camps of the National Socialists.
But I cant see any difference, when (like I described in another mail in this thread) the Assyrians tried to exterminate the Elamites or the Turks tried to eliminate the Armenians or the German Reich tried to eliminate the homosexuals, gipsies, jews and slaws.
After WW2 similiar extermination plans were done by other nations - the example of the Red Khmer is only one of so many.
I understand that the historical relics are impressive and shocking. But for me the german wallet made of human skin is as disgusting like photographs of US-headhunters presenting skalps of killed indians or old assyrian stone monuments, presenting the massacres of the civilians of their enemies.
These all are for me sad proofs of human perversities and I see no difference between them.
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The British camps in South Africa had very high death rtes from disease.
After that was brought to the attention of the government, more medical help was sent and rations improved. By 1902, the deth rate was lower than in Glasgow.
In May 1902, the Boer congress wrote to Kitchener, complaining about his new policy of not taking women and children into the camps.
The British were using a scorched earth policy against the Boers, burning their villages and farms that gave them shelter. The original policy was to take the families displaced by this into camps because with their crops destroyed they wouldn't be able to feed themselves.
THe camps were detention centres. There was no attempt to kill inmates. Conditions were bad, but they were improved as soon as it became clear how bad.
The complaints about the camps were set forth in a letter from Boer leaders Burger and Reitz. They included:
"On account of the stingy supplies of fuel allowed, women of the most noble families of South Africa have been oblidged to gather with their own hands, fuel, consisting of dry cow dung, in order to prepare food for themselves and their children.
At the same time they are oblidged to personally wash their clothes and other linen because, as has already been stated, they have been deprived of the help of their servants"
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Originally posted by babek-
These all are for me sad proofs of human perversities and I see no difference between them.
Several things make the holocaust different.
-The Nazis did not just starve and shoot the 'undesirables', they applied modern industrial methods to mass murder. The world had never seen murder factories like Treblinka before.
-Not content with killing all of the 'undesirables' in their own
country, the Nazis imported people from other countries to kill them in specialized murder centers. Does someone have other examples of millions of people being moved hundreds of miles by trains just so they could be killed?
-The Nazis did not just stealing all of the possessions of the murder victims, they systematically harvested commodities from the dead bodies of those they murdered. The hair, fat, gold teeth... were not taken for trophy value but for pure economic value.
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Thats your point of view.
I cant see any difference in the killing of the National Socialists and - for example - the ancient Assyrians.
They had the same goals: Exterminate another race.
The ancients used their technologies and the National Socialists theirs.
Both acts were criminal and pervert.
I cant see a difference in the quality of the crime and perversity only because the ones used gas and transported their victims in trains to camps and the otheres used blades and killed their victims right in the place where they found them.
The only difference I can see is the really sad fact that the Assyrians were successful in their extermination-plan and the great Elamite culture was destroyed and lost.
But both are historical facts and should be valued and remembered equally.
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Montezuma, what you said applies to Aztecs too. As Ripsnort pointed out, they systematically slaughtered thousands and again thousands in a perfect "killing factory" style. The fact that they had the extra motivation in the form of religious beliefs is no better an excuse than calling the people to be purged inferior and subsequently stuffing them in an oven.
No act such as these should be forgotten or denied. None of them should be belittled and said that "oh it was so long ago" or "but they were just some natives killing each other".
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I see a few items to add here, further distinguishing the holocaust from other ancient time slaughters.
- The jews were not directly a nation, but a line of people integrated into many other societies.
- They were used as a target group politically way before the holocaust. Reasons: They were fairly "unpopular" and not too many to offer a proper resistance, such as politically. They were relatively wealthy for their share of the population. And they always said they wanted to get to their "promised" land, or at least make their own new state.
- Modern society features were applied to the full to perfect the crime. Examples: Modern propaganda to make them unpopular. More propaganda to hide what was going on to the rest of the world. Modern technology for transport (yes, it has been mentioned in thid thread), extermination (that too), and book-keeping of the whole business.
- The whole affair was largely unknown to the state carrying it out. Most civilians and even soldiers had no idea about the magnitude of the affair. Modern days misunderstanding is that it was the Germans who did it. To be precise, it were the NAZIS who did it...Germany just happened to have the soil, seed and tools for it.
- The whole affair was to remain hidden without a certain circle of people, - not so many were supposed to know about it.
- The whole thing happened quite recently and was carried out within the borders of one of the worlds most advanced countries.
I am talking about literacy, science etc.
And to end this, here is something.
There is a wave of racial extremities swinging through Europe now. The Nazi banner is flying again, carried largely by "innocent" and "ignorant" youngsters. I think it is the duty of educated and enlightened people to give them a very recent and relevant message about the truth and history of the business rather than complicating it with the "relatively similar Assyrian (etc.) massacres"
There is no excuse for things like that!
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Now thats the problem:
For you the crimes done by the national Socialist german Reich is an outstanding event.
For me its only one of many historical perversity in a long row of crimes which have been done by humans before and which have been done after WW2.
I condemn them all and I value them all in the same level.
Its not important which group has been condemned to be eliminated - the fact that some people are condemned to death only because they are of another race, behavior, skin-color or religion is the true crime.
For example: The National Socialist killed the homosexuals because they were defined by them as perverts.
So - like the jews - it was not necessary to be member of a nation to become a victim.
These victims - jews like homosexuals - were surely equally integrated in their societiers - but they become targets.
This happened in history before - like the Hugenot-killings in France where they were wiped out and the survivors forced to flee throughout Europe.
Ans also the propaganda was used before and after the WW2 to justify the killing of other people.
Lets again go to the past:
During the crusades the non-christians were defined in 1095 by Pope Urban II as subhumans - so there was a legitimation to kill them.
In the next centuries throughout Europe a great propaganda machine was started to raise the feelings of the people in order to mobilize them.
There were paintings - shown in churches how the muslims were butchering christians in the holy land, replacing the christian sacred symbols with theirs in the churches and how they relieved nature (I have this from the dictonary and hope its right) within churches.
And even other nations long before the Middle Age had their very effective propaganda-machines.
Its undeniable that the Propaganda of Mr. Goebbels had a totally new "quality". He used all the techniques and possibilities his "civilisation" offered him. But there is no difference between the Middle Age painter who wants to raise the feeling of people and the speaches and false documentations of the National Socialist Germany.
They used their possibilities - thats all.
Also the argument that only few elite people know the truth is not an outstanding or new thing. It has always been in history that few were hiding the truth from the rest of their people and manipulated them to do incredible crimes.
Again - this was not a new thing invented by the National Socialists of the Reich.
So the German-Reich criminals and their crimes against the homosexuals, the jews, the slaw-people, the gyppsies, the communists and whoever was their target are only one fragment in a great and ugly picture of criminal actions done by regimes during human history.
To make more of them would means to honor them - and that would be a great mistake.
They were just criminals - like so many before and after in history - who used their abilities to kill others.
The fact that they were very capable in organising their killings and the numbers of their victims is - from the historical point of view - irrelevant.
So - we should try to remember all these criminal and inhuman acts of history - not only the deeds of National Socialist Germany.
And we should also not forget that not only jews were killed by them - but also other ethnical groups and people who had a different behavior like the homosexuals.
The sentence that those who forget history are condemned to
repeat it, is damned right.
We see the results of this ignorance right now:
Today there are new regimes acting like the inhuman-regimes of history.
And I fear that there will be all the time such inhumans, who make their crimes.
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Angus, my point is that I'm not exactly convinced that it is a good idea to separate the holocaust from all the other systematic mass murders. If one looks hard enough, they all look different, or perhaps they look just alike.
I just think that when one does separate one from the others, the all the other killings somehow go unnoticed and unspoken of. And yet the history of mankind is irritably full of similar incidents, a thing that might go unnoticed by many. This is my point of view, feel free to prove otherwise.
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Our country is too quick to point the finger at Hitler and Stalin on ethnic cleansing issues as if it was beyond our capacity to even coceive of such crimes much less commit them. Sadly, Hitler may have been inspired on how to handle the Jews by the way the US handled its Indian populations (native Americans for those PC types out there).
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I think Babek and Angus are talking from different points of view: Babek is holding every historic act to his own moral standards, while Angus takes a less absolute approach.
It is really not fair to take events that occured for more than 150-200 years ago and judge them with our moral standards. These standards have changed a lot over the centuries (the exact reasons for that are extremely complex and not worth debating here anyway).
What to us may seem a repugnant, devious practice that only "evil" people could engage in might at one time have been the unquestioned right of the conqueror, something to write home and brag about. I say might, as there is EXTREMELY little we know about these (200+ years ago) people's mindsets: we know a lot about their material culture (from archaeological evidence), some of their political history and very little about the way they were thinking.
No one can say for sure how Romans felt about gladiators. There is evidence that suggests that large parts of the population regularly attended the games (like the practice of emperors of organizing such gladiator evends for the purpose of appeasing the plaebeii (commoners)). However, what we cannot conclude is that all Romans going to the circus and watching slaves fight for their lives were "evil", just because engaging in such activities in our timeframe would be outrageous. They were men and women of their time and society and they acted accordingly.
In the same fashion, judging the Assyrians for their actions (which are far from well known historical facts, mostly established by way of archaeological "evidence", which is circumstantial to say the least) against the Elamites is somewhat unjust. They were children of their time, and who are we to assume we know enough about the society they were living in to condemn them?
However, when it comes to recent attrocities, the point of view is drastically changed. We can and do relate to the people involved in the events discussed. Some of them are still alive (like my grandmother, at one point "guest" in a work camp), and they don't differ much from us in the department of moral standards. So we can, with some degree of accuracy, try and understand what it was like, on both sides. Thus, we can hold them accountable to our own moral values. This is not true of older events, as you cannot possibly hope to imagine what it was like being either a Mongol soldier slaughtering the inhabitants of Bukhara or his victim, for instance. They are too far removed from our cultural and moral context.
You could establish a fixed set of moral "rules" and judging every event in the history based upon that, but it would be utterly irrelevant , as these "rules" would inevitably have to be based on one timeframe only, thus being unjust to every one not living during that period.
Returning to the topic at hand, the Holocaust was considered to be something morally repugnant even by the ones committing it. Otherwise, they would not have tried to cover it up. Goebbels propaganda might have diminished understanding and simpathy for jews, but it could never justify such an attrocity. There is no doubt in my mind that a wide majority of the Germans would have opposed the mass-killings had they been publicly aknowledged (in news reels for example, the normal way of announcing an achievement the government was actually proud of) instead of being merely an underground rumour.
Well, I did not really intend to write this much, but it just got me thinking. My .2 denars anyway.
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Originally posted by Romeoman
In the same fashion, judging the Assyrians for their actions (which are far from well known historical facts, mostly established by way of archaeological "evidence", which is circumstantial to say the least) against the Elamites is somewhat unjust. They were children of their time, and who are we to assume we know enough about the society they were living in to condemn them?
I agree with many parts of your mail, but the above part is dangerous.
Would it be acceptable if in the year 4000 people say "They were children of their time, and who are we to assume we know enough about the society they were living in to condemn them?" when they speak about the crimes of the National Socialists against the homosexuals, jews and other minorities they butchered?
With the historical links I wanted to show that since the beginning of human civilisation nearly every single culture and nation had phases where they made incredible crimes to minorities or social defined outcasts of their society.
The problem is that often people want to value these crimes.
But they are ALL pervert.
I consider it equally pervert that black people were transported over decades in well organized shipments from Africa to the slave plantages of America with all the pain and losses during the transports and the slavery for the rest of their life as I consider the barbarism of Nation Socialist Germany.
The real problem is that there is no end of these crimes.
The downfall of the German Reich has not ended these perversities - even today they happen.
And this is a fact which troubles me: That humans could be so pervert to other humans and havent changed in their intentions during 1000nds of years...
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Babek:
"The real problem is that there is no end of these crimes.
The downfall of the German Reich has not ended these perversities - even today they happen. "
Yup, you are right. But less of it will happen if we keep up the work. We should not let these things happen, and especially in our enligtened and educated modern societies where it gets continuously harder to hide things like that.
So, what I am saying is that we should not let neo nazis have their way to "brainwash" our young ones with roadkill like "the Holocaust was a fake" or even "the Holocaust was nothing new"!!
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Originally posted by babek-
I consider it equally pervert that black people were transported over decades in well organized shipments from Africa to the slave plantages of America with all the pain and losses during the transports and the slavery for the rest of their life as I consider the barbarism of Nation Socialist Germany.
I am troubled that you find no difference between mass murder and mass enslavement. Granted that both are dreadful, it seems to me there's quite a significant difference.
- oldman
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@angus
I can agree with all points of your last mail - except one:
The crimes of the Nazis done to the homosexuals, jews and other people they defined as subhumans have been done before - it was clearly nothing new.
Its not my intention to reduce their crimes by this statement but I am not willing to ignore all the equal crimes of nations and races done in history before and after the National Socialist Reich.
@oldman
The slavery and torture of the black people was only one of so many possible examples.
But to value this special historic crime, I consider the slavery of the black equal to the crimes the National Socialists have done to the homosexuals/jews/others.
An ethnical group was considered without any logical reason as subhumans.
They lost all their human rights and were considered as property.
There was also a well organised transport to their target areas where they had to end their lifes.
There have been horrendreous conditions during these transports and many died under barbaric circumstances.
They had to enter a machinery where they were selected, where famalies were teared apart - even children were taken away or sold to different owners.
Maybe the difference to National Socialist Germany was that they could live longer, but what "life" has a slave?
No - this was truely an equal barbaric and ugly crime like the Nazi-killing anc recycling machinery of the death.
Maybe its within our genes, that we consider other ethnicals as less worth.
Just ask yourself, how some people in Europe react when they get a message that 1000 philippines have been killed during a catastrophy and how if 100 europeans died.
Even in this forum there were passages of pals or ragheads and so on.
As long as we treat and value people in different ways because of their ethnical heritage things like happened during National Socialist Germany could be happen again.
Everywhere...
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Yea but............
Yea they were wrong but..................
Yea they suck but....................
Yea that was horrible but.................
Yea but what about............
Everybody's got a big but, lets talk about your big but.
Step one in minimizing the Holocaust.
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Maybe I am not minimizing the killing of homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans by the National Socialists but just putting it in a greater frame of historical crimes, which I all equally condemn.
And maybe you by ignoring or minimizing the other events are maximizing a single historical event which happened often in its type before and after WW2.
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Originally posted by babek-
Maybe I am not minimizing the killing of homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans by the National Socialists but just putting it in a greater frame of historical crimes, which I all equally condemn.
And maybe you by ignoring or minimizing the other events are maximizing a single historical event which happened often in its type before and after WW2.
If ignoring the other atrocities you mention maximizes the Holocaust then so be it. I choose to ignore them in the context of this thread.
OTOH I think you need to take a close look at your indoctrination level babek. For example - You have consistantly mentioned the jews second or third in your list of groups targeted by the Nazi's. Is this significant in explaining your feelings? Do you feel it necessary to minimize the Holocaust whenever it is mentioned? Why have you never called it "the Holocaust" in this thread? You don't need to answer these questions, just look in a mirror and read them to yourself.
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LOL - quite a little bit paranoic reaction you have.
But nevertheless you deserve some answers.
1st - When I use the phrase "homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans" I sort them in alphabetic order - as it is routine in my work.
You accused me that by mentioning the jews in 2nd place of this row would be a discrimination of this specific target group of the National socialists.
Strange view you have.
I made it clear in my mails of this thread that I condemn the crimes done to the homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans.
In the same way I condemn the other crimes done during the ancient and recent history.
2nd - You wrote "If ignoring the other atrocities you mention maximizes the Holocaust then so be it. I choose to ignore them in the context of this thread."
If I am right the starter of this thread was thinking about people who deny historical facts.
Now just read your own statement and you will find yourself in the group of people who deny historical facts.
In this point I am more than happy that we have a different point of view.
I try NEVER to ignore the numerous crimes done by humans against humans throughout their long history.
Concentrate yourself in the small fragment of crime of human history - I will try to see the much bigger picture and to find an answer for myself why human behavior is not changing and repeating again and again.
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Don't forget the holocaust of Native Americans by Columbus!!!! :rolleyes:
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Oh yea this "Slavery of the Black" is total roadkill!
The more accurate should be "Slavery of the weaker African Tribes by stronger ones", nobody in Africa was ever sent to slavery because they were Black.
And the WW2 Holocaust thing is certainly unique and unprecedented if not entirely in concept but in scale and execution.
But since that we have had things nearly as bad, In Rwanda IIRC over 1,000,000 people were killed using machetes and knives in a genocide lasting only a few months.
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And don't forget the Gypsies,,,,,
Anyway, and in whatever order those groups are put in this thread, the jewish were the biggest.
But again, what seperates them from the others is that they were "picked" to the slaughter partly because of their wealth. A diabolically clever move as I think I have mentioned before, picking a wealthy and somewhat unpopular group, paint them as enemies, roast them and pump their money into the eco system.
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Originally posted by SageFIN
Montezuma, what you said applies to Aztecs too. As Ripsnort pointed out, they systematically slaughtered thousands and again thousands in a perfect "killing factory" style. The fact that they had the extra motivation in the form of religious beliefs is no better an excuse than calling the people to be purged inferior and subsequently stuffing them in an oven.
Of course genocide is nothing new in human history whether by swords, guns, starvation, diseased blankets, whatever.
Read what I said about the Holocaust - modern industrial death factories.
That is Nazi Germany's unique legacy in history. That is what separates them from all of the other genocidal barbarians before and after, whatever other common attributes they may have shared.
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I never saw it befor..but he has a point..the Germans never really did much more than sack villages on a large scale.
Glad I understand that now..this was just the Germans turn to be nasty like the assirians.
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Originally posted by babek-
LOL - quite a little bit paranoic reaction you have.
...snip...
2nd - You wrote "If ignoring the other atrocities you mention maximizes the Holocaust then so be it. I choose to ignore them in the context of this thread."
If I am right the starter of this thread was thinking about people who deny historical facts.
Now just read your own statement and you will find yourself in the group of people who deny historical facts.
In this point I am more than happy that we have a different point of view.
I try NEVER to ignore the numerous crimes done by humans against humans throughout their long history.
Concentrate yourself in the small fragment of crime of human history - I will try to see the much bigger picture and to find an answer for myself why human behavior is not changing and repeating again and again.
Alphabetical order? Fine. But wouldn't the word "Holocaust" be much easier to type than "the crimes done to the homosexuals/jews/other so called subhumans"?
Even paranoid people can be right sometimes babek.
I said "In the context of this thread". The subject of this thread was people revising history to either try to prove the Holocaust didn't exist, or to minimize it. You are trying to minimize it by diverting attention away to other horrific crimes in history.
"Small Fragment" kind of says it all.
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Originally posted by babek-
I agree with many parts of your mail, but the above part is dangerous.
Would it be acceptable if in the year 4000 people say "They were children of their time, and who are we to assume we know enough about the society they were living in to condemn them?" when they speak about the crimes of the National Socialists against the homosexuals, jews and other minorities they butchered?
Well, in 4000 they may be entitled to say so. That is if they lose so much knowledge of oue time as to not be able to understand much about our time. Remember that unlike previous eras known to us, we have produced huge quantities of material, which (if preserved) might enable those who come after us to develop quite accurate understanding of our way of thinking.
At the very least, it should be clear to any serious history researcher from 6000 AD that the Holocaust was widely regarded as atrocious beyond any reason by those living at the time of the event or immediately afterwards.
Don't get me wrong! Not passing judgement is not the same thing as condoning a certain act. When I say that 4000 years from now they may not be condemning the Nazis very hard, I don't mean they will be of the opinion the Holocaust was something good. They will probably (I certainly hope so :))regard it as horriffic with their moral standards, but regard us as "backward" enough as to not think likewise.
Originally posted by babek-
The problem is that often people want to value these crimes.
But they are ALL pervert.
I consider it equally pervert that black people were transported over decades in well organized shipments from Africa to the slave plantages of America with all the pain and losses during the transports and the slavery for the rest of their life as I consider the barbarism of Nation Socialist Germany.
The problem with the above quote is that you are contradicting yourself. If you say these acts are "pervert" you are valuing them. While I think that passing judgement on the Holocaust is acceptable, as it happened in a time frame we can relate to, I also believe that the judgement is totally irrelevant for events that happened more than a couple of centuries ago.
The slave example is perfect to illustrate this. Slaveship is repugnant to you and me as citizens of the world in 2000 AD. It was however an accepted and normal phenomenon for thousands of years, when few if any questioned it as such or the need for it. It was certainly not considered "wrong" by the african tribes enslaved themselves, as they just happened to be the losers of some regional conflict. Had they won the war, they would probably gleefully sold off the defeated.
Gotta run now, to be continued!