Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hblair on February 06, 2001, 06:07:00 PM
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Which is it? Do you spend all your time reading up on Robert Johnson (great stuff) to improve your game or are you like me, and believe there is nothing compared to old fashioned "stick time"?
When I started playing warbirds 2 1/2 years ago, I didn't know didly squat about tactics or how to fly a plane. I used trial and error to figure out which moves were the best. Over time I became better. I don't keep up with all the terms of the ACM moves people make, usually the ones who are experts in WWII ACM are easy prey in the arena.
hblair employs homemade moves. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yup. Hang likes 'homemade moves'.. they surprise me. Nuthin like thinkin yah got a cat in the bag and suddenly discover a tiger on yer back.
When I know it's you hblair; I hang back.. and proceed MOST cautiously. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!>
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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Only time I know I'm fighting anyone good is when the screen turns red and I read my obituary damnit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Mav (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have read Fighter Combat 6 times..Thats why I am invincible.
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Ok I have no moves. learned or taught...
sigh..
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My flying comes to me naturally, I don't think or plan out tactics far ahead of time.
I have read Fighter Combat, but those tactics don't work well in Aces High.
P.S. It seems as if the guys that can go on and on talking about different ACM can't actually execute it and win.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 02-06-2001).]
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I like to mix my combat with 1/4 textbook ACM, 1/4 home made moves and 1/2 looking round about for the guy that just blew my tail off...
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LOL Nath, are you talking about "BFM" or "ACM"? In the USAF, we tend to reserve the term ACM for multi-ship fights (aka furballing to you duelists).
I originally started by reading Shaw's book long before I ever flew an online flight sim (back in 1988 or 1989 I think) then I was quickly taught in the old CK beta that flat turns are not very useful against real pilots. After I figured that out (about 3 fights against one nice opponent who "showed me what happened), My K/D never dropped below 1 again and I started picking up some tricks. It didn't hurt that I was finishing up USAF pilot training in the T-38 at the time, and from then on I brought my USAF fighter training into the arena with me minus the missiles of course.
I'd say that on balance, 70% of what I use in the arena comes from books and formal training at work, and 30% comes from my online experience especially when dealing with network lag and warps. I also learned a lot about flying taildraggers from flying earlier versions of WB (it's toned down now, too easy) and as a result I had little problem taxiing, taking off, and landing in a real taildragger on my first ever try in RL.
I dunno if my RL training counts as "textbook" or "homemade", that's for the jury to decide (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Started in the ACA. The make belive FM forced us to invent are own moves. This habit proved very useful later on, moveing on to other sims. There are a lot of us still around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I got my moves like so:
1. Trainers. Worr taught me most of 'em back in WB so long ago.
2. Homemade "pilot toejam". Mostly just stuff I do from experience. Not particularly brilliant, but mostly functional. Nothing specific, more like combinations of BFM moves applicable in various situations.
3. Textbook. I read Shaw and Johnson. I take what I learn, and try to apply it. I mostly screw up and die horribly. Occasionally I actually pull one or two of these moves off and surprise myself. Usually, that leaves me flying straight and level in awe of my acheivement and somebody shortly disabuses me of the notion that I am a good pilot. <G>
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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I rarely "aim" my guns, I wait for my victim to wander aimlessly in front of me, which surprises me so much I jerk in reaction, squeezing the trigger.
I started out in EF2000....total BS FM, so alot of the acm didn't work when we moved to AW3 Big Pac RR, after that tho the moves I picked up helped when I went to WB ACA, although the biggest thing ACA taught me was Situational Awareness, which helps here.
I've read Worr's and other's AW/WB lectures, and found that they screwed me up more than help, although a few items such as net lag issues (i.e. cut con distance in 1/2 when checking 6) have help immeasurably.
So to sum it up I'm a home-made movies type too, although I do know the names of the various ACM/BFM manuveurs, and how the "textbook" sez's to do 'em.
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This is the first sim I've flown where the majority of what Shaw demonstrates in text works.
The only time it dosen't is when I run into a 'natural'.. Nath is one. So's Hblair. There are many others, there's no shortage of superb pilots in this sim; and they confound me often by 'flying outside the envelope' routinely.
I ain't a 'natural'.. I'm a dogged traditionalist, hard to teach; harder still to convince and determined as hell when I start a fight; often amazed and humbled afterwards.
Thats why I like this sim.. never a dull moment. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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I learned it myself by watching Tom Cruise (hez reel cool) twenty times down at the video store (ma cuzin lets me).
p.s. if ya see me flyin straight thats coz that stoopid stick stirring code keeps kicking in!
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I used to fly Shaw Kung Fu style, now I don't know where that book has been for the last 3 years, so I have forgotten the stuff. None the less it had very brilliant stuff that worked 1:1 in CK/WB. Some of the E stuff ( dissimilar a/c ) you could do the whole diagram step-by-step and that was all there was to the fight.
One diagram where Me 262 goes against a P-51 and starts the merge with a climb, I still do that kind of merge anytime there's speed for it.Which reminds me I would need to buy a new copy of the book.
// fats
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I like making up confusing names for homemade moves...
like my patented (#US 568,868,654) rolling-yoyo-scissoring-break-slice.
Usually seen seconds before several tons of aircraft plow into the ground, after foolishly engaging Zekes, Niks, and Spits with the TBM.
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Moo to the majority, neigh to the minority!
-- Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
Fire from the bowels, Nomads own the latrines
www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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I've really only read about 1/2 of shaws book (im a slacker really).
I tend not to do the moves in the book verbatim, as its all relative. I read the book looking at what he's saying and trying to find a situation in my experience where that applies or could apply and try to make a heuristic about those sorts of situations.
To cut a long story short, i guess some are close to text-book moves, while others are things that i have discovered by accident, but they are based around principles the book is trying to convey.
Sometimes i stuff it up and misjudge, and other times it works well.
So a bit of both 4 me i guess...
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Well, I guess you could say I started out with some 'home made' moves, then read Shaws book and learned they actually have names for them thar' aerial man-oo-vers.
I find I am much better at dis-similar aircraft combat than similar aircraft combat. I.E.- my flight envelope vs your flight envelope. In similar aircraft fights, I tend to bleed a little too much E trying to get the quick kill at times (It would actually work if I could lead the target better and if I could just plain aim!...Still studying that excellent gunnery article from SimHQ).
Also, I prefer team (section) tactics to 1 vs 1 dogfighting. Mostly, though, the tactics I use are just based on the relative flight envelopes, i.e.,
1) ID Bogey type(Which is obviously a bandit because it's a red dot on DAR (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
2) Try to discern the energy state of the Bandit.
3) Based on my experience flying both aircraft and my first guess as to relative energy states (his to mine), determine if I will use energy or angles tactics.
4) Then just do whatever it is we do, hope I get a shot and don't miss.
5) Go back and watch the film (Probably one of the best learning tools) and try to determine at what point I lost the fight (I.E.- Should have extended there, should have 'broke' earlier into that turn here, etc.)
6) Go back and try again.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'
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I take all the technical information supplied with the quarterly Aces High Newsletter like corner speeds for each aircraft and varient, and then practice with purpose of testing that critical data. (the .33cent mailing fee, and .50cent publishing costs are covered in your $30/month subrcription. Several members publish it for a 1 month free account)
Oh wait...
Nope, just fly around and stuff. Sometimes pulling the control stick friutlessly with out even watching the instruments, clueless as to the operating data on whatever Im flying..
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I learned how to fly the easy way, I threw a brick off the roof and watched as it flew (kinda) and now I know how to fly.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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i learned the basics on the sublogic Flightsim on my Amiga (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I never read a book about how to fight a other plane, it's all trial and error.
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if i jump my out of my apartment in the fog and float for more time than it takes my instructor to call his mommy can I log it as actual.
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Most of the real stuff that really works can found in books.
All the rest of the stuff is just gaming - stuff that only works because of netlag or other deficiencies in the simulation.
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A combination of some incredible folks who were able to help me online to become competitive, reading Stephen Hawking's er...Robert Shaw's book (the parts that were actually written in English), studying basic ACM as taught in flight sim manuals, and the school of hard knocks, aka stick-time.
Mk
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"THE YO-YO IS VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN. IT WAS FIRST PERFECTED BY THE WELL KNOWN CHINESE FIGHTER PILOT YO-YO NORITAKE. HE ALSO FOUND IT QUITE DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN, BEING QUITE DEVOID OF ENGLISH."
--- Squadron Leader K.G. Holland, Fighter Pilot
It's amazing the brits ever learned how to fly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
"Turn to kill, not to engage."
Commander 'Willie' Driscoll, USNR
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It seems to me that success in this game boils down to four skills:
First...and most important...the ability to keep the bandit in sight using the view system. This may be helped by using a HOTAS stick/throttle combination along with some well thought-out modification of the standard views to increase lookout area. The single most significant factor in view management is the ability to keep the bandit in sight once it is no longer in your plane of symmetry (lift vector).
Second...proficiency in energy management. This may be improved thru careful stick programming of dead zones, sensitivity settings, etc. Aces High has a good 'black-out' feature that kicks in around 5-6 Gs. I see the real problem in the 3-5 G area. Flying in this area bleeds energy. The problem is that there are few cues to tell the pilot that he is pulling too hard on the stick. Most of us know the numbers...but in a fight, the Gs are easy to lay on without being aware of it. Because of the lack of other cues, it takes a determined effort to watch the G meter and airspeed indicator to avoid this energy drain.
Third...an understanding of how the unique technical effects of on-line flying affect your perception of closure and available turning room. BFM is all about closure and turning room. The best 'move' in the world may well be for nothing if attempted too soon or late or too slow or fast. My impression from flying AH is that the perceived closure and separation is either 'too little' or 'too close'. I typically underestimate closure and available turning room. As a result, it seems that maneuvers need to be initiated at ranges greater than what the picture on the screen would otherwise suggest. To this end, proficiency in flying 'to the elbow' or 'to the high six' will pay off in kills...or successful separations.
Lastly...BFM itself. Nothing new in BFM has come down the pike in many years (with the exception of the Rooskie 'Cobra' maneuver...and many of us have our doubts about that). The correct maneuver flown at the right time wins...anything else is rubbish, as someone once said! Choose the wrong maneuver or begin it at the wrong time, and your results may be disappointing.
Are there such things as 'home-made moves' and do they work? Perhaps. Some have alleged that the on-line environment has resulted in odd variances that some have taken advantage of. Otherwise, I doubt that there is a 'move' that is unique...someone probably thought of it long ago.
My thought is that such moves in AH probably work better when on the defensive. Some quick and unexpected maneuver that takes the defender out of the plane of symmetry of the attacker and that results in significant flight path separation may cause the attacker to lose sight. This will because the attacker is slow to respond with the correct view choice, or worse, chooses the wrong one.
So...once the pilot has figured out the idiosyncrasies of the AH viewing system, his particular aircraft's strengths and weaknesses, and the unique aspects of on-line flying, he is only left with Shaw. It's all there...100% complete. If it's not in that book, then it's most likely bar talk and BS.
Andy
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I will happily join you all in posting something stupid here, but, sorry, what the hell is FM? Fly, kill, call the names, rape sheeps, that is what the real man shall do! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mostly homemade, after 1.03. Take a look at what Zekes, Spitfires V, Nikis and F4Us can do, just to name a few. More textbook maneuvers before 1.03, IMHO.
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo5.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-08-2001).]
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As always, I didn't explain myself well (Hey, I'm from Alabama! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
What I meant by "homemade moves" was not necassarily something brand-new made up by myself, but tactics learned by myself while flying online, on a trial and error basis, over a period of time. Meaning some of my bag-of-tricks might well be some things that, say, Andy has studied and/or used over his career as a real world combat pilot.
I just haven't read too many books on ACM/BFM myself, and don't know what the heck ya call half the stuff I do, therefore, my ACM/BFM was created by myself, for myself in the Aces High environment.
Did all that make sense?
BTW, nice cars in that other thread Andy. Dad used to have a '69 Red Corvette convertible with a 454. A true babe magnet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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--- And Bush: ---
First...and most important...the ability to keep the bandit in sight using the view system. This may be helped by using a HOTAS stick/throttle combination along with some well thought-out modification of the standard views to increase lookout area. The single most significant factor in view management is the ability to keep the bandit in sight once it is no longer in your plane of symmetry (lift vector).
--- end ---
I have ( forward, ) forward/up, up, up/rear, rear, left and right views mapped. The corner views like forward/right or right/up are useless. If you fly in vertical then those are all the views you need to keep the bogey in sight/in your lift vector. They are enough for cutting someones turn by rolling as well, when the enemy goes out of lift vector momentarily.
// fats
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hblair
I understood you just fine!! It's a great question and begs for a lengthy discussion.
Yep...old Vettes are tough to beat. My favorite is still the 427 '67 Coupe.
Andy
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Ok, so who is Robert Shaw and where can I get/download/see a copy of this book then?
Swoop
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870210599/o/qid=981660467/sr=8-2/202-5857632-1938241 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870210599/o/qid=981660467/sr=8-2/202-5857632-1938241)
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Moves? Are we supposed to have moves in this game??? Nobody ever said anything to me about any moves ;-)
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HOW MUCH!?!?!?!!!!!!
Nah, I dont think I'll be spending more than I spend on A.H. per month just to find out that a split S is exactly what I thought it was. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Swoop