Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sabre on May 07, 2002, 02:42:26 PM
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The Battle of Britain Returns!
BoB returns to the CT this weekend and you've got to check out this new BoB terrain! The radar sites are awesome, and the field placement will make for some intense action. Sundog's really done a fantastic job creating this 128x128 terrain with the CT in mind. to you, Sundog. I’ll once again ask Pyro to reset tour stats to coincide with the start of BoB this Friday afternoon. That way, we'll not only see the capture of terrain as an indicator of who’s winning, but also see a straight up tally of who’s winning the battle of attrition.
Terrain: Battle of Britain, by Sundog (yeah!)
Radar (dot/bar/alt): 25mi/35mi/500ft
FuelBurnRate: 1.5
Ack Lethality: 0.7
Fleet Respawn Time: 3 HOURS!!!
Order of Battle –
Great Britain (in England): Spit-I, Hurr-I, Blenheim (TBM), C-47, M-8, M-16, M-3, LVT (both marks, to represent early tanks, and from DE fleets in channel), and PT's from CA fleets and ports.
Germany (on Continent): Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4, Ju88, C-47, M-8, M-16, M-3, LVT (both marks, to represent early tanks, and from DE fleets in channel), and PT's from CA fleets and ports.
NOTES: Fighters will be enabled at captured bases, but not bombers or C-47's. The idea here is to require both sides to support any cross-channel assaults logistically, while making the defender's job easier. Fleet respawn time will be three hours, so careful with them. Radar range will be 25 for dots and 35 for bar. The idea here is to promote the importance of taking out the coastal radar sites, i.e. to make them a priority target (they're to cool looking to let languish in obscurity:)). Neither side has CV fleets (which didn't operate in the Channel in any event). Instead, each side has three cruiser squadrons (2xCA/4xDE) and three destroyer flotillas (8xDE). I'm going to use the same trick that Sicily used, i.e. the destroyer flotillas will have LVT's, while the cruiser squadrons will have PT's. With a 3-hour respawn time, sinking them has a signficant affect on the tactical situation. Neither side's fleets will have enemy guns or spawning enabled, so capturing a fleet denies it to your enemy but doesn't provide your own side with anything more than a big, mobile flak trap. I'm going with ground leathality of 0.7, making it reasonable to survive one or two hits from ack instead of 1-ping-death-at-15-miles. Finally, a couple of the bases in England and France have special spawn points for aircraft. By selecting “H” your aircraft is placed at a satellite field rather than at the “mother field.” This represents the use of small outlying satellite, or dispersal fields to improve response time to incoming raids. You’ll figure them out quick enough:D.
Sabre
CT Staff
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woo hoo cant wait for this one when will the map be ready for d/l better go polish up my ju88 for some radar station runs.
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For me, I think that it is time to put the lederhosen back in closet and set a cup of tea next to mouse pad.
Here's hoping it takes a few less hits with 303's to bring down a Emil than it does to knock down a Tempest. (pingpingpingpingpingpingpingp ingpingpingpingpingpingpingpi ngpingpingpingpingpingrudderf allsoff)
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The terrain was up in the SEA yesterday, and may still be there today. If so, just log into the SEA and it will automatically download the terrain for you.
Sabre
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Looks VERY nice, I like where you show what planes are available at what fields.
NUTTZ
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Sehr gut!
(Could the Brits use the TBM instead of the Ju-88? Its payload is closer to a Blenheim then the Ju-88's?)
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OK, I just looked at the terrain and it is very pretty, but.....
I hate to come off as a negative jerk, but the terrain relief exageration seems a bit high. The cliffs of Dover and the French lowlands are 2,000ft up. That's a mite bit high and hilly, especially for naval invasions.
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You are a negative jerk, Karnak
:D :D :D
Seriously though, I think it was intended to tone down what happened in previous BOB setup when the RAF parked the CV right in front of Callais and endlessly spawned Hurricanes which sort of 'smothered' the defending German bases with flak and fighters. At least with 2000ft to climb the CV launched planes would cut some slack for the low-alt-maneuverability-impaired 109s :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Seriously though, I think it was intended to tone down what happened in previous BOB setup when the RAF parked the CV right in front of Callais
There are no CVs in this terrain, afaik?
Camo
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Personnally, I don't think CVs have any place in a BoB setup.
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Karnak, the elevations probably ARE exagerated, as the map scale was cut to 1/2. Doing this doesn't automatically cut the elevations, just the horizontal dimensions. So it seems out of proportion...at least I think that's why. As for the TBM, you'll see I've already replaced the Ju88 with it in the Brit OOB. I used the TBM last time for this, and don't even know why I stuck Ju88 in there this time. Brain flatulence, I guess.
Also, there are no CV's in this set up, and if there were I'd lock them down and put them in a corner ;). However, those pesky cruiser squadrons and DE flotillas will still keep things lively mid-channel, me thinks.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Just did a web-search: the Dover cliffs are about 200m at the highest point, which converts to about 650ft. Three-fold exaggeration is not too bad, considering that if you use the real world elevations, the terrain will most likely look absolutely flat.
However, the terrain maker should take into account the GVs and not make it impossible for them to reach the targets due to steep hills. Especially in a terrain like this, where the only means to capture fields across the channel are LVTs.
Can the LVTs reach the bases from the sea, or are the cliffs too steep everywhere?
Btw, looks like a great terrain! :)
Camo
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Camo, C-47's will also be available, so for the areas where the terrain is too steep for LVT's there is still a method for assaulting bases.
Sabre
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Originally posted by keyapaha
woo hoo cant wait for this one when will the map be ready for d/l better go polish up my ju88 for some radar station runs.
Well, it sounds like the radar situation has been fixed, so hopefully this won't be a big issue. I'm hoping you can't kill dar bar in this new BOB map. As much as I enjoy this setup, lack of dar was a big problem in the last BOB map. Hopefully it won't be an issue with the new one, and we'll have lots of dar bar range but a decent delay. I think that works well.
Kudos on the new map BTW, looks great! It's been sorely needed for the BOB setup.
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The radar situation is much improved with this map. Historically, the British had two different types of coverage, a low altitude zone that covered the channel out to a distance just past the straights of Dover, and a High altitude zone that extended a little ways into France. This will be simulated with dot-dar (low-alt zone) and bar-dar (high-alt zone). There is overlapping coverage by the coastal radar in England, so it will take a sustained effort to create a big whole in the radar coverage. It will however be possible. On the other hand, those radar station V-fields are well protected with AI and man-able guns as well as a VH. All the buildings need to be knocked down to capture one too. There is still the possibility of an HQ raid to kill country-wide radar, but with the lower bomb loads available, this will be tough to do.
Sabre
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just how long will the radar station be down. not really interested in capturing them just keeping them out of action
i assume all bldgs at the site must be destroyed in order for radar station to be inopperable. hope this does not include the vh that is there.
i going to fly some missions offline tonight to these stations to get info on these sites.
keep up the good work
BTW you mentioned lower bomb loads do you mean we won't be able to carry 4x500kg and 20x50kg bombs (max load on ju88)
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Key, what I meant by lower bomb loads was the absence of heavy bombers (B-17's, Lanc's). CM's have no way to limit loadouts of aircraft. It would be a nice side-balance tool, but I'm not sure HTC would ever want to spend the time to add this feature.
Sabre
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Some additional “good to know” info on the BoB map (Sundog, you’re beautiful, man):
In England, the Vehicle fields V47 through V51 are RADAR sites. You have to kill all of the "generators" at the base of each antenna tower to kill the DAR. Of course, there are (4) quad 20mms per field, (4) man-able 37mms per field and (1) 88mm per field, so you better have some good 'de-ackers' along to take out the DAR site. There is also 1 GV spawn there and the barn acts as the VH. All of the other buildings are bunkers or 'town' buildings, e.g., you need to take the buildings out to capture it. Now, these sites are based on the locations of the High Level RADAR sites according to (Sundog’s) sources. The DAR on the airfields in the area correspond to the Low Level RADAR installations for the most part.
*Several airfields actually have two fields to roll from. If you choose to launch using 'H' you launch from the remote airfield. Example: If you want to roll from Biggen Hill, go to A20 (Debden) and select 'H' to launch. BTW, don't carry too much speed when you land or you may end up as wallpaper on the Chateau
A1 - Granville
A2 - Theville
A3 - Caen ('H' for forest village spawn take off)
A4 - Beaumont-Le-Roger
A5 - Essone
A6 - Gisors
A7 - Octeville
A8 - Amiens
A9 - Berck ('H' for forest village spawn take off)
A10 - Marquise
A11 - Oye Plage
A12 - Manston
A13 - Friston
A14 - Tangmere
Also ('H' for launch from Portsmouth, Hants - It's a Chateau Airfield)
A15 - Warmwell
A16 - Keevil, Wilts
A17 - Membury
A18 - Farnborough
A19 - Kenley
A20 - Debden ('H' for launch from Biggen Hill - It's a Chateau Airfield)
A21 - Haddenham
A22 - Fairford, Glos
A-26 Dieppe
You can land and refuel at the grass airfields (Chateau and forest village spawn fields). It should be noted that these grass fields just have one hot re-arm pad, the runway grass beneath (i.e. if you exit on them you get a successful landing), and they have some light ack for defense. Other than being able to re-arm on them, they DO NOT effect base capture. For instance, if all the fighter hangers are down at A20, you would not be able to spawn at Biggen Hill. Also, the buildings on these remote-spawn fields do not effect the 'status' of the airfield's they are associated with. So you would execute a base capture on A20 as you would any field in the MA. However, the remote objects BELONG to the base they are associated with, so if that base is captured, that remote base is now the enemy’s as well.
Sundog added the two chateau fields in England to simulate the grass airfields that they sometimes operated from there and in France. The remote forest sites at two of the airfields simulate what the Luftwaffe began doing later in the war, i.e. dispersing their aircraft to remote forest sites to keep them from being strafed.
Finally, the strat map above has notes indicating what aircraft operated from what fields, but we're not sticking to this. Spits and Hurri's will both be available at all friendly fields; the same goes for the German fighters.
Sabre
CT Staff
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man thats very cool we could run this for a month and i would not get bored with it great work sundog
looks like those anntenna towers will be no. 1 on my list of targets.:D
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The alt hights IMO have to be exagrated, or you don't get the "feel" of the elevations. If Dover cliffs were 650 ft. I still don't think a LTV or GV could still climb the cliffs. It also makes an assault more realistic and the LW will have to coordinate and plan well.:)
NUTTZ
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I'm looking forward to this one Sabre. You guys are doing a great job.
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Sorry I'm late to the discussion. There are two reasons for the elevation discrepency. One is, I am using a seperate 3D map making program in combination with AKwabbits bmp2map program to generate these terrains. The reason is, it defines the 'rolling hills' and rivers better than Ogre's mapmaker. As such, it does tend to raise the edges of coastlines too high. Partly it is also due to how I choose the grayscale range in the height map.
I also don't mind it, because it does make using any TG's as flak canopies difficult. However, many of the bases near the coast will have to remain 'vigilant'. If you look at the bases, you will see that the maproom is in the center roundabout with the towns at the VH, not at the airfield. There is also mannable AAA there. For some of the fields near the coast, the airfield may be 'up' on the mainland, but the VH town is 'down' on the shore where invading LVT's can easily access it. There are also mulitple spawn points for GV's from all sites EXCEPT the Chain Home RADAR sites (VH47 through 51).
Remember, to capture a field, all the buildings (town) at the VH, must be down first. Have fun :)
Edit: Also, along the lines of what Nuttz was mentioning, I did try making them down around their actual heights, but due to the way the terrain engine works in AH, if you place the alts correctly, they end up looking more like white sand beaches than the cliff's of Dover, since you can't make a true vertical cliff in the AH terrain engine.
Also, I have an error in the fields listed above. To roll from Biggen Hill, you must launch from 'H' at A19, not A20.