Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on May 07, 2002, 04:15:38 PM
-
at least 15 dead :(
Looks like the Pals aren't interested in anything but murder and chaos
Without a central leadership, how can anyone speak for and control these animals? Can someone tell me who ALL the PAL terrorist orgs would listen too? Arafat? Anyone?
They don't even give peace a chance before they strike again.
Give it one more bomb and the tanks will roll again .... and the cycle continues.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
Give it one more bomb and the tanks will roll again .... and the cycle continues.
I think that is precisely what the militant factions are trying to achieve. The chaos in the Middle East justifies their existence and peace would only make them unemployed.
I have wasted a ton of time over the past few days arguing about which came first..the chicken or the egg...in terms of who is to blame for all the violence. But let's face it...shouldn't the question really be, which comes last? Which side is gonna have the conjones to actually stop bombing or shooting?
Israel keeps trying.
The bombs keep going off.
-
....The UN mission was to pin "yet another massacre" on Isreal, when Isreal has in actuality committed NO massacres. They always act in self defence. You can sit there and ignore all the facts of the past 50 years but I wont. As soon as Isreal said to the UN that the fact finding team must be ballanced the UN cancels the investigation. What a squealing HUGE joke the sad part is that so many people around the world still buy into this type of tactic.
Arafat is free now, I'd be willing to bet that the homicide bombings start up again within a week or 2.
I posted this just on the 2nd looks like I wasn't far off the mark :(
Why on God's green Earth is Bush treating arafat like a squealing statesman?!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?! Each day that goes by my support for the president gets a little bit less. The way I see it is that there would be a state called Palestine right now if it were not for arafat, then I guess there would be no arafat if the palestinians would stop wanting all jews dead. Sharon should have executed arafat when he had him captive.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
U
-
Sharon should have executed arafat when he had him captive.
Damn right..
15 dead..some trapped under the ruins....sigh
(http://www.tnuatam.org/images/english_prayer_03.gif)
-
Arafat is one man. Hortlund has the statistic that 73% of the Palestinians support the suicide bombers. I suspect that figure is even higher now.
Until Israel offers a workable state, the violence will continue.
All the arguing of who did what to whom, who did it first, who's right and who's wrong won't change that fact.
Seperate, put up a strong border, and keep the Palestinians out of Israel.
-
Seperate, put up a strong border, and keep the Palestinians out of Israel.
I aggree 100%
One more bomb ,and I bet the IDF will do just that.
-
Is there still someone who thinks actions Israel did in west bank in Jenin and Ramallah really help to get peace in middle east?
Once again if you didn't get it first time:
All Israel did was it created more potential suicide-bombers.
You reap what you sow.
-
STaga:
When Barak was PM, the Israelis compromised and compromised and compromised.
The Palestinians refused to do the same.
Some time later, the peace friendly Barak is replaced by the hawk Sharon.
Now, the Palestinians are reaping what they sow. They had a very good chance of getting peace - start a deal with Barak, then move on incrementally. They didn't even do that.
Sharon si a squealing stunninghunk with little interest in peace on anything but absolutely Israeli terms. Arafat knew that when he dealth with Barak.
Basically, IMHO, Arafat got greedy and blew it. Am beginning to think he's more a part of the problem than the solution, and I've always thought om him the other way around.
-
This is no longer a diplomacy issue. Its Israel's responsibility to terminate any 'force' that threatens its citizens. I guess what it boils down to is that Palestinians have to die for Israelis to live. Thats fine with me.
I think this could possibly escalate into a large Middle East war. I just hope Israel has the man power and technology to hold off the hordes.
If I had to attribute one thing to causing this conflict, I would say ignorance. I have no statistics to go by, but I would imagine the majority of Palestinians are horribly uneducated.
-
When Barak was PM, the Israelis compromised and compromised and compromised.
The Palestinians refused to do the same.
Not really true.
The Palestinians were prepared to compromise on a key issue for Israel, the right of return.
That's something Israel cannot allow, a million or more Palestinian refugees returning to the land they owned in Israel.
What Arafat needed in return was a viable Palestinian state. Israel didn't come close to offering that.
Therecan't be a Palestinian state with the existing settlements. Israel will not abandon the settlers in Palestinian territory, and wanted land tolink up all it's settlements.
That would have split the Palestinian state into 3 chunks, with Israeli territory, and border crossings, between each.
Water rights, and final say on all matters affecting both countries, would have remained with Israel.
That's not a deal Arafat could have enforced amongst the Palestinians. Trying to do so would have made him appear to be an Israeli puppet, selling out the Palestinians in return for support from Israel.
A Quisling, if you like.
There are about 60,000 settlers living in isolated settlements in the west bank. The rest live in settlements close to the Israeli border, that can be absorbed into Israel.
With those 60,000 in place, there can't be a viable Palestinian state. Israel cannot abosrb the whole of the West Bank into Israel, to do so would make the Palestinains citizens, and they would have to have the vote. That would give them close to political parity with the Jews, not something Israel is willing to contemplate.
Sooner or later Israel is going to have to evacuate those settlements, and allow the Palestinians a state. The majority of Israelis are in favour of that, it's just not something their government is willing to agree to yet.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Arafat is one man. Hortlund has the statistic that 73% of the Palestinians support the suicide bombers. I suspect that figure is even higher now.
Until Israel offers a workable state, the violence will continue.
All the arguing of who did what to whom, who did it first, who's right and who's wrong won't change that fact.
Seperate, put up a strong border, and keep the Palestinians out of Israel.
No matter what Israel does, there will be terrorism against Israel as long as both Israel and Arab nations exist. Every choice available to the US will ultimately lead to more deaths. We simply get to choose who the dead will be: Israelis, Arabs, and/or Americans.
-
StSanta maybe you should watch This (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/barak_eng.swf) first...
it's from Israeli peace movement Gush Shalom (http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html).
-
Is that a whine? ;)
-
No matter what Israel does, there will be terrorism against Israel as long as both Israel and Arab nations exist.
Jordan and Egypt have both signed deals with Israel, and are not a source of terrorism against Israel.
Egypt has fought an internal war with Islamic terrorists, at great cost to it's tourism industry. The efforts of the Islamic extremists to topple the Egyptian government by destroying the tourist industry caused a backlash. The extremists became more marginalised, and have not mounted attacks in Egypt since.
People trying to build a future do not support terrorism. There is a reason terrorists try to destroy the economy first, the unemployed, the poor, have less to lose and more to gain by terrorism.
Peace would bring economic benefits, and create a class of Palestinians who have to much to lose to allow terrorism to continue.
-
Originally posted by Udie
I posted this just on the 2nd looks like I wasn't far off the mark :(
Why on God's green Earth is Bush treating arafat like a squealing statesman?!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?! Each day that goes by my support for the president gets a little bit less. The way I see it is that there would be a state called Palestine right now if it were not for arafat, then I guess there would be no arafat if the palestinians would stop wanting all jews dead. Sharon should have executed arafat when he had him captive.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
U
Udie, Arafat is the recognized leader of the Palestinian population. He wears a rag on his head, washes his hands often, doesn't indulge in alcohol and has bad breath. He is who you deal with in negotiations if you are Ariel Sharon.... who drinks to excess, never washes his hands, has a bad flatulance problem and whose breath is just as foul, given their genetic disposition for being at least first cousins.
-
Elfenwolf has a point, am I the only one who notices a stunning resemblance between Arafat and Sharon? They could be brothers (by hideously ugly parents of course) or at least cousins... :D
-
To somehow try to put the blame for the suicide bombings on Israel is just as sick as to blame a rape victim because she was wearing a short skirt, and should know better than to walk alone at night.
Nashwan is correct, the violence will continue. In fact, the entire palestinian population in the age group 5-50 is "lost". These people have too much hate, and they will keep going as long as they can. As long as there is one Palestinian demand left, there will be more attacks.
Israel cannot negotiate her way out of these attacks, simply because she cannot meet all the Palestinian demands. In some areas it would be suicide (water rights, refugees) in others it is unthinkable (settlements, Jerusalem). There is no political solution to this conflict. That leaves us with a military solution.
The short term goal must be to prevent further attacks. Continued attacks against the Palestinian infrastructure and command chain can probably be expected. These attacks work very good. (And if you had bothered to read anyting about the conflict Staga, you would realize exactly how much the Israeli offensive has done. The Pal "government" and the terrorists cannot survive another offensive like that.) During the latest offensive, several high ranking terrorists, including Arafats second in command, were either killed or captured. Several bomb factories destroyed (and note that The pals only have 6-10 skilled bombmakers). And hundreds of terrorists neutralized.
Since there are thousands of volounteers ready to strap on explosive vests, the problem must be attacked from another angle. The Israelis will continue to kill off the Palestinian leadership, a tactic that has worked extremely well. It does not completely stop bombings in itself, but it drastically reduces the effectiveness of each bomber. Instead of attacks where two or three bombers strike at the same target, one against civilians, and the other one against the rescue personnel, there has been alot of bombings or bombing attempts where the terrorist seems to have been more or less "winging it". These improvised attacks are normally prevented, or result in minimal loss of life.
I also think we will see more walls and fences built around Palestinian towns. I think the Israeli tactic is to strike at the terrorists from two directions. One is to kill off their leadership, destroy their infrastructure (and here, the terrorists and the pal government has been proven to use the same infrastructure) and generally try to cut the head off the organizations. The other direction is to seal off the palestinians from Israel. Build walls around them, fill the streets of Jerusalem with soldiers, enforce curfews, take away their mobility etc.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Nashwan is correct, the violence will continue. In fact, the entire palestinian population in the age group 5-50 is "lost". These people have too much hate, and they will keep going as long as they can. As long as there is one Palestinian demand left, there will be more attacks.
Where did you get your "facts"?
Build walls around them, fill the streets of Jerusalem with soldiers, enforce curfews, take away their mobility etc.
Pretty much same thing Nazies did in ww2.
-
My statement regarding the lost generations is based on the following:
The 73% approval rating of suicide bombers among Palestinians, combined with the fact that (2 months ago) only 60% wanted peace talks with Israel.
The following article on how the Pals are creating another generation of brainwashed terrorists (quoted by Ripsnort in another thread on this board, this is the primary source):
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/25/MN53534.DTL
Quote from article:
Back in Gaza, however, the kids at the Al-Mujamma Al-Islami kindergarten class started a new game last week called "martyr's funeral."
"One of them pretended to be a martyr, while the others lifted him up and pretended that they were burying him," said Showish. "We tell them that the shahid are very good people, our heroes. We tell them that they must grow up and do the same."
Khitam Ajrami, an expectant mother, says she will tell her unborn child the same thing. "I will tell the baby that his father died a martyr," ... "I will teach the baby to hate Israel".
"If the occupation continues, I will teach my child to do what his father has done. [he was a suicide bomber]"
The following articles found at TIME.com
-The Battle for Jenin
Gives a detailed explanation of what really took place inside the camp.
http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html
-Why Suicide Bombing Is Now All The Rage
A truly horrible reading.
One quote from the article:
"Ibtisam's son Mohammed, 19, blew himself up in Jerusalem on March 2, after positioning himself next to a group of women with baby carriages waiting for their husbands to leave a bar mitzvah ceremony. He killed nine other people and injured more than 50 in the name of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. Two weeks ago, a neighbor came by to pay a condolence call. She mentioned that she wished she were Mohammed's mother so her son could be a martyr."
-Why We Blow Ourselves Up
A Palestinian doctor explains why so many Palestinians want to become martyrs
Both these articles can be found on TIME.com by doing a serch using the keywords "Suicide bombers".
From MSNBC.com
-How strong is Hamas
Article from December-01 regarding the terrorist organisation.
-Teenage girl and suicide bomber
Quote from the article: 18-year-old Ayat al-Akhras, strapped with explosives, left her home in the Dheisheh refugee camp near Bethlehem on a suicide mission. At 1:30 p.m. in Jerusalem, 17-year-old Rachel Levy left her home for the supermarket, carrying a grocery list. Just 20 minutes later, both teenagers approached the store, walking in the same direction, meeting at the same time. An eyewitness said they looked like sisters out shopping. They shared only one deadly second. The explosion killed the teenagers and a security guard. In all, 30 people were injured.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/669331.asp
-The mechanics of martyrdom
Quotes from the article: IN OTHER GENERATIONS, in other places, they have been cowboys conquering the Wild West or Jedi knights up against the Empire. In the Israeli-occupied territories today, they’re would-be suicide bombers killing Israelis. And unlike most little boys and girls, for whom the games of war are passing fantasies, the children of Palestine are taught by everything and everyone around them that they’ll have their chance. When they grow up they’ll trade their cardboard bombs for real ones, and kill the real Israelis who man the omnipresent checkpoints, who intimidate and humiliate their parents, or fight their brothers in the streets.
22-year-old Izzedine Masri walked into the Sbarro pizza restaurant in downtown Jerusalem and blew himself up for Hamas, killing 15 people. In nearby Jenin, Palestinians handed out candy on the streets to celebrate the bombing.
After Israeli troops stormed into the Jabaliya refugee camp last month, schoolteacher Samira Abu Shamak was shocked to hear her 6-year-old daughter begging for a gun or a bomb. “She said, ‘I want to be a martyr’,” remembers Abu Shamak
http://www.msnbc.com/news/735266.asp
Do you want more?
As for the nazis-remark. You are only displaying your own ignorance when you post crap like that. How many Jews were suicide bombing german civilians in 33-45?
-
It was only a question of time, when the next suicide-bomber would strike in this neverending circle of hate.
With fanatic criminals like Sharon and Arafat there will be no end of this development.
Those who thought that a military operation which was done by the israeli army could avoid future suicide attacks must have been very naive.
Sharon has failed as he has failed before in Lebanon. All the military victories are worthless - they couldnt stop the counteractions or bring peace.
Now the isralis will strike back to get their revenge and by doing so they produce the next suicide bomber who will march out to hit his target.
Then revenge follows for revenge and more and more hate is produced.
Both sides down there have the same guilt - both have criminals and fanatics who are manipulating and claiming that they are right.
The Israelis have no chance to win this conflict with their military and the palestines on the other sides have also no chance to win by their martyr-operations.
And as long as there are no capable politicians the war-criminal-leaders will contiunue their endless game.
-
"and note that The pals only have 6-10 skilled bombmakers"
-Bombs are old invention: everyone with a little knowledge knows how to make them. It's not a rocket science...
When I was a kid we made somekind of grenade launcher from steel tube, gunpowder and some other things. In army I did learn much more about demolishing steel and concrete structures with different explosives and makeing booby traps.
So I know how easy it is to build them so when you're saying only 6-10 palestinians are capable to built them I say BS.
btw they are easy to carry; who says those bombs have to be built by palestinians?
-
Hortlund, how many children in Britain during the war would have said they wanted to kill Germans? How many British or Americans wanted to destroy Germany, and implement the Morgenthau plan? (Even if they didn't know of the plan, that was a general feeling)
How many German children would have wanted to kill all the Jews? All went through Nazi schooling, showing them the racial characteristics of Jews, watched films like Jew Suss. Most joined the Hitler youth. Were they taught peace and justice for all there?
Did the Russians grow up during the war loving the Germans?
Did the Jews in the camp plot revenge when they got out?
In war, people hate their enemies. The more they beat you, the more you hate them.
Palestinian opinion is natural for people at war, natural for an occupied people. Do you think an opinion poll in Poland in 1941 would have been different?
Jewish groups planned revenge against Germany. There were plots to poison resevoirs. The attacks, like the thoughts of revenge, quickly petered out.
Same will be true for the Palestinians. They would rather get jobs, houses and lives than spend their time after the war is over looking for revenge.
-
Hortlund read again quotes you did post. Do you really think that crise could be solved by using military power?
Build walls around them, fill the streets of Jerusalem with soldiers, enforce curfews, take away their mobility.
Nazies did solve some of their "problems" by locking people to the ghettoes and concentration camps. Is that what Israel should do to the palestinians too?
There's 3 million palestinians living in that area. If Israel really want to stop bombings it has two options:
-Kill all palestinians. Well they need to kill all arabs and half of muslims too in that case.
-Search for a political way out from that crise. This option is better for whole world (just my opinion, you might think different).
-
Option 3: Remove all Palestinians from the West Bank/Gaza Strip
Option 4: Build a large wall around the Gaza-strip. Call the Gaza strip "Palestine" and force move all palestinians into Palestine.
Option 4 can be combined with a South African model "homeland" in the West bank.
And yes, I think military power can solve the situation.
[edit: I'm not saying that I support any of options 3 or 4, I'm just suggesting that there are more options avaliable than your two options: negotiate or kill them all]
-
Option 3: Remove all Palestinians from the West Bank/Gaza Strip
To where?
Option 5
Rather than moving 3 million people into an area that cannot accomodate them, move 60,000 settlers back into Israel and build a wall around the West Bank.
Gaza is not capable of holding all the Palestinians. It is approx 1/3 the size of Hong Kong.
Option 5 is the only solution, and most people in Israel support it. It will happen eventualy, it's really just a question of how many more people die before it is implemented.
-
The complete withdrawal of all IDF from the occupied territories
The complete withdrawal of Jewish settlements from the occupied territories
The border between Isreal and the Occupied territories controlled by the United Nations
Jerusalem turned into a international city administered by the United Nations
The United Nations commisioning an arbitration council to settle water, immigration problems between Isreal and the Occupied territories.
Tronsky
-
A great philosopher of current times I know once said "Chaos is cash to someone..."[/i] and it applies here..the Saudi's, Iraq, probably Iran, maybe Syria, definately Libia, all give money to Hammas.
-
Originally posted by -tronski-
The complete withdrawal of all IDF from the occupied territories
The complete withdrawal of Jewish settlements from the occupied territories
The border between Isreal and the Occupied territories controlled by the United Nations
Jerusalem turned into a international city administered by the United Nations
The United Nations commisioning an arbitration council to settle water, immigration problems between Isreal and the Occupied territories.
Tronsky
Sounds good on paper, doesnt it.
However, take into consideration that the UN has pledged to defend Israels borders before. Once before the 1967 war (that time they did not do anything when the Egyptians broke all agreements and began remilitarizing the Sinai) and once in Lebanon (that time they didnt do anyting when the Hezbollah attacked IDF troops or civlians. Besides, I dont think Israel trusts anyone but themselves to defend their borders.
What exactly do you mean when you say "international city"?
The UN commisioning an arbitration council to settle water rights and immigration problems? So what happens when the two parties dont reach any agreement? Or what happens when the council rules in one way or the other? Do you think the losing part will just say "fine then, at least we tried"?
As for the Settlers, they wont move. For some reason unbeknownst to me these guys value that land more than their own life. The Israeli government would then be presented with the options of either leave them in place or try to move them by force, somehow I doubt any government would survive such a forced transfer.
As for ther IDF, as long as the settlers stay they will have to stay. No Israeli government would survive abandoning the settlers.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
To where?
Option 5
Rather than moving 3 million people into an area that cannot accomodate them, move 60,000 settlers back into Israel and build a wall around the West Bank.
Gaza is not capable of holding all the Palestinians. It is approx 1/3 the size of Hong Kong.
Option 5 is the only solution, and most people in Israel support it. It will happen eventualy, it's really just a question of how many more people die before it is implemented.
Well, the problem with the "move the settlers"-theory is that it is the Israelis who hold the upper hand on the West Bank. And the Israeli government will never attempt to force transfer all of its citizens. The government would simply collapse. So whether you like it or not, that option is out.
As I have been trying to point out, there are 4 questions that are unsolveable.
Water rights
Jerusalem
Settlers
Refugees
The Israelis and the Pals will never reach an agreement on these four issues. That rules out any diplomatic settlement of the conflict.
What is left then is either to continue the way it is today (most probable) or go to an all out war (lesser probability).
Sooner or later that war will come though, and until then, Israel will do whatever she can to prevent more terrorist acts.
-
" .... will cease to exist!"
another premature explosion in Israel, bombing of French diplomats convoy in Pakistan ..... sick freaks
these are just excuses for a few to show their hate and evil, I think they could give a crap about "their cause"
Now with the fame & glory the kids in Palestine are getting for doing these disgusting acts of violence, what else are they going to do? If you have your parents telling you they'd be very proud if you went and blew yourself up :rolleyes: - what else do these kids going to do? As stated above, I think the average Pal has about a third grade education at best, not to mention being asre backwards in their way of living and thinking in this day and age...
Israel has to do what is best for Israel and America has to stand with them.
Screw the Arabs and all the other terrorist lovers !!!
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt and kill him first," Sharon said. "Israel will act strongly" against Palestinian militants, said Sharon, adding that the mission of the previous military offensive has not been completed. "The battle continues and will continue, until all those who believe that that they can make gains through the use of terror will cease to exist," he said in Washington.
Here's his entire statement made just before leaving the US last night:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/sharon_text_1&printer=1
That about sums it up...
-
Originally posted by Eagler
" .... will cease to exist!"
another premature explosion in Israel, bombing of French diplomats convoy in Pakistan .
They were French construction workers involved in a submarine project
Tronsky
-
Originally posted by -tronski-
They were French construction workers involved in a submarine project
Tronsky
my mistake then, does that make it any less of an evil murderous act?
-
owever, take into consideration that the UN has pledged to defend Israels borders before. Once before the 1967 war (that time they did not do anything when the Egyptians broke all agreements and began remilitarizing the Sinai) and once in Lebanon (that time they didnt do anyting when the Hezbollah attacked IDF troops or civlians. Besides, I dont think Israel trusts anyone but themselves to defend their borders.
That was in '67
What exactly do you mean when you say "international city"?
Jerusalem turned over to the UN, and administrated by the international community. Divided into sectarian sectors if need be.
The UN commisioning an arbitration council to settle water rights and immigration problems? So what happens when the two parties dont reach any agreement? Or what happens when the council rules in one way or the other? Do you think the losing part will just say "fine then, at least we tried"?
As opposed to settling for a stalemate?
At least, if independance could be maintained, arbitration would being doing something for the regions problems and forcing decisions on those not willing to make any.
As for the Settlers, they wont move. For some reason unbeknownst to me these guys value that land more than their own life. The Israeli government would then be presented with the options of either leave them in place or try to move them by force, somehow I doubt any government would survive such a forced transfer.
Difficult decisions are the privelege of governing.
It has shown with its excesses in rooting out Palestinian gunmen in the occupied territories that the current Isreali government is quite capable of moving people against their will.
As for ther IDF, as long as the settlers stay they will have to stay. No Israeli government would survive abandoning the settlers.
No settlers, no problems, no IDF
What is left then is either to continue the way it is today (most probable) or go to an all out war (lesser probability).
This
(http://www.richardneville.com/pictures/IP0302.jpg)'
Leads to this if either of those options comes to fruition
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1975000/images/_1975151_blood_ap300.jpg)
Tronsky
-
Well, the problem with the "move the settlers"-theory is that it is the Israelis who hold the upper hand on the West Bank. And the Israeli government will never attempt to force transfer all of its citizens. The government would simply collapse. So whether you like it or not, that option is out.
All it's citizens?
There was an article in Haaretz two days ago looking at the costs.
Between 40,000 and 60,000 settlers would have to move.
Cost of providing comparable communities in Israel would be about $750 - $2000 million dollars.
More than half the settlers are non-religous, who moved there because of cheap housing and tax breaks. They should be fairly easy to tempt back. The others, about 20,000 of them, will have to be evicted by the army. However, simple expedients like cutting off their water supply will get them to move quite easily.
There will certainly be some trouble, but considering most Israelis support abandoning the settlements, I doubt it would bring down the government.
It's interesting that Arafat is expected to crack down on the Palestinians, to do Israels occupation work for it, but the Israeli government can't crack down on a few thousand settlers.
As I have been trying to point out, there are 4 questions that are unsolveable.
Water rights
Jerusalem
Settlers
Refugees
None of these are unsolvable. Settlers can be removed.
Jerusalem was already agreed, with a few minor differences. The Israelis agreed to have the Western half, the Arabs the east. Both will move their respective capitals there.
The Palestinians recognize the right of return is impossible, and are pushing for a compensation package instead. Evacuated settlements would form part of that compensation package. Offer a refugee the chance of an Israeli settler home and they will jump at it.
Water is a sticking point. However, Israel is using more water than the reserves allow anyway. Desalination plants are going to have to be set up.
Desalination costs around $1 per cubic metre, and the price is expected to fall. Current Israeli consumption is about 380 litres daily per capita. Providing all Israel's supply by desalination would cost 38c per person per day. Somewhere between 1 and 1.5 billion dollars a year.
Israel spends far more than that policing the West Bank, not to mention the damage to the tourist industry etc the violence brings.
It really all comes down to the settlers in the end. The two sides cannot live together. Israel will not give the Palestinians equal rights in the West Bank, and the Israelis are never going to feel safe living amongst Palestinians.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
my mistake then, does that make it any less of an evil murderous act?
No, but it does change the context
Tronsky
-
Tronski, you are a sick diddly posting pictures like that. It was not nice talking to you. Good bye.
-
What, did you think this was about fighting over a game of monopoly or something?
These pics arent from rotten.com, open the lead story @ the bbc news Arafat orders end to terrorist attacks and theres the picture of the Tel Aviv bombing right at the beginning.
Sorry if I offended you, I didnt realise you had such a weak stomach to a little reality on a subject you post so often about.
BBC NEWS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1975000/1975151.stm)
-
-tronski-
I don't think the bomber in your lower picture had his trigger finger in the same position as the Israeli soldier does here:
(http://www.richardneville.com/pictures/IP0302.jpg)
talk about context, too bad the cameraman didn't zoom out and get who/what the soldier has his rifle trained on eh?
-
Originally posted by Staga
Pretty much same thing Nazies did in ww2.
Exactly the same especialy when you think of all the Jewish homicide bombers back in Germany in the 1930's :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by -tronski-
What, did you think this was about fighting over a game of monopoly or something?
These pics arent from rotten.com, open the lead story @ the bbc news Arafat orders end to terrorist attacks and theres the picture of the Tel Aviv bombing right at the beginning.
Sorry if I offended you, I didnt realise you had such a weak stomach to a little reality on a subject you post so often about.
BBC NEWS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1975000/1975151.stm)
Hey toejamhead. Someone died in that picture. The same picutre you are using trying to score some cheap point with or whatever.
It aint the picture that pisses me off, it is how you use it, and for what purpose.
Enough of this. Consider yourself squelched.
-
Would you call Tronski a toejamhead if he would post a pic of destroyed building in Jenin/Ramallah/Shabra/Shatila with some red stuff on the floor? Propably not :)
-
Originally posted by Staga
Would you call Tronski a toejamhead if he would post a pic of destroyed building in Jenin/Ramallah/Shabra/Shatila with some red stuff on the floor? Propably not :)
Apparently you didnt read the post directly above yours. Well, I guess I shouldnt expect too much.
I'll try it again. It aint the picture in itself that pisses me off. Its how he used it to try to score some cheap point or whatever.
This [picture of soldier] leads to this [picture of a suicide bombing].
Apparently he must be under the impression that we all are incapable of coherent thought, and he feels a need to explain stuff with pictures.
I would never post a picture of Yasser Arafat and a picture of some dead guy in Jenin and caption it "This leads to this" or whatever. It is sick, disrespectful and it is tasteless.
As for your implications, I'm kinda puzzled...exactly what are you implying?
-
Nashwan, interesting post. I've always thought the situation down there could be solved if there were will to do so. You've argued well for suggesting this is true.
Am wondering what would have to happen to realize these things in real life? Under Barak, the Israelis compromised and compromised. For the Palestinians, it was not enough.
The Israeli people responded by electing a hawk, one firmly set upon no compromises.
If the Israeli people compromise and give something up, yet aren't given anything in response but more suicide bombers, why should they compromise?
The idea is this; there'll always be a good deal of islamic fundamentalists in the region. Even if the majority of Palestinians were convinced to accepting a peace deal, these nutters would still blow up themselves and women, children and men with them. Why compromise?
To lower the rate of these incidents. Now, the risk is; the Israelis compromise. Suicide bomb attacks become more infrequent - but not infrequent enough.
Israel has given up their bargaining chips, and will have to resort to violence to retake them. And the situation will turn even worse.
Then there's the fact that orthodox Jews are starting to outnumber secular Israelis. Secular israelis get about two kids per family - orthodox Jews get eight or nine. In less than 50 years, orthodox Jews will have a democratic majority. They'll then send the secular Jews out to war (since orthodox Jews are exempt from military service, because they study their holy scripture).
Not very nice long term perspective. There is a deadline for settling this dispute peacefully.
If the Palestinians stopped their suicide bombs, they'd lose some publicity for their cause, true. But, they'd gain sympathy. I cannot side with the Palestinians when 73% of them think suicide bombs are ok. Had they not used these tactics, world opinion would be on their side. On the other hand, terrorist dees took Arafat from a low level terrorist to the leader of an exiled people.
Why aren't Palestinians setting off bombs in Jordan though? I mean, aren't they also occupying Palestinian territory?
-
Under Barak, the Israelis compromised and compromised. For the Palestinians, it was not enough.
Barak offered very few compromises.
Almost no settlements would be abandoned. Israel would control the water supplies. (Israelis have 380 litres of water per person per day, the Palestinians are allowed 70)
Israel would control external borders. The West Bank would be split up into several sections, with Israeli zones of control between each.
Israel ruled out the right of return, so all the Palestinian refugees who were born in Israel, and who own land and property there, couldn't return to claim it.
Any issues affecting both Palestine and Israel were to be decided by Israel alone, with no Palestinian say.
Israeli compromises were very very few. The Palestinians would be allowed to set up their capital in East Jerusalem. The Palestinians would recieve 95% of the West Bank, although much of that would be occupied by Israel for an unspecified period.
As a deal, it wasn't one any Palestinian leader could have sold to his people.
Then there's the fact that orthodox Jews are starting to outnumber secular Israelis. Secular israelis get about two kids per family - orthodox Jews get eight or nine. In less than 50 years, orthodox Jews will have a democratic majority. They'll then send the secular Jews out to war (since orthodox Jews are exempt from military service, because they study their holy scripture).
Orthodox Jews don't tend to work either. They are a burden Israel can't afford to keep at that sort of level.
One group inside Israel breeds faster than the Orthodox, and that's Israeli Arabs. In 50 years, the Arabs will be approaching a majority inside Israel.
On the other hand, terrorist dees took Arafat from a low level terrorist to the leader of an exiled people.
Yes, and Menachim Begin, and David Ben-Gurion, and Yitzhak Shamir, and Ariel Sharon. All of them have carried terrorist attacks, all became Prime Minister of Israel. The history of the area over the last 100 years shows terrorism works.
Why aren't Palestinians setting off bombs in Jordan though? I mean, aren't they also occupying Palestinian territory?
The key difference, and the reason that Palestinians haven't hated Jordan, is that they had similar rights to the Jordanians. In the West Bank, Palestinians have few rights. No vote, subject to military justice, reduced water supplies etc.
In Jordan, the Palestinians were given Jordanian citizenship.
Palestinians in the West Bank would jump at the chance of Israeli citizenship. Israel could end the problem overnight by annexing the West Bank and making the Arabs who live there citizens of Israel. Israeli Arabs suffer a lot of discrimination, but they are still very well off compared to the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza.
Israel can't do that of course, because it would mean the Palestinians would have equal political power in Israel with the Jews.
-
The latest oinion poll in Israel shows what the Israelis think needs to be done to improve the situation:
In the poll, 59 percent of those questioned said they believed a unilateral withdrawal of troops and settlers from the West Bank and Gaza Strip would lead to the renewal of the peace process while 72 percent felt it would improve the country's international standing.
Only 42 percent of respondents said the continuous presence of the Israeli army in Palestinian cities gave them hope for the future.
The poll found that 63 percent of Israelis felt peace negotiations were necessary to resolving terrorism. The poll was conducted before Tuesday's suicide attack on a pool hall in Rishon Letzion that left 15 Israelis dead.
Most surprisingly, the poll found that 56 percent support a U.S.-led international force for the Palestinian territories. The Israel government has been reluctant to accept an international force in the area, something the Palestinians have been pushing for since fighting broke out 19 months ago. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said he would consider a small American contingent but neither idea seems likely to take shape at the moment.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=161786&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
The key difference, and the reason that Palestinians haven't hated Jordan, is that they had similar rights to the Jordanians. In the West Bank, Palestinians have few rights. No vote, subject to military justice, reduced water supplies etc.
In Jordan, the Palestinians were given Jordanian citizenship.
Nashwan, please do tell me that you are aware of the fact that Jordan and PLO was at war in the 70ies. Because from what you wrote here it doesnt seem that way.
-
The PLO was a threat to the Jordanian government. The Jordanian government cracked down on the PLO, hard. The PLO fled to Lebanon.
The Jordanian government did not crack down on Palestinians, by and large. Palestinians in Jordan now have equal rights to Jordanians. Descrimination exists, like in most countries.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
The PLO was a threat to the Jordanian government. The Jordanian government cracked down on the PLO, hard. The PLO fled to Lebanon.
Hm, fun way to describe a civil war "The government cracked down on the PLO, hard." Also, I see you left out the Syrian intervention in this little "crackdown".
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Hm, fun way to describe a civil war "The government cracked down on the PLO, hard." Also, I see you left out the Syrian intervention in this little "crackdown".
Look hortlund you don't get it. It's ok for arabs to kill arabs, when those scummy animal dirty jews start killing them when that's when you're supposed to get angry.
Haven't you learned anything yet? Everybody on the planet is allowed to defend themselves except the Jews/Isreali's.
:rolleyes:
-
Udie, the difference was the Jordanians granted full rights to the Palestinians. They didn't come up with a plan to make the Palestinians live under an apartheid state.
Israel has a few choices:
War
Get out of the West Bank
Annex the West Bank and make the Palestinians Israeli citizens
So far, Israel has chosen war.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Udie, the difference was the Jordanians granted full rights to the Palestinians. They didn't come up with a plan to make the Palestinians live under an apartheid state.
Israel has a few choices:
War
Get out of the West Bank
Annex the West Bank and make the Palestinians Israeli citizens
So far, Israel has chosen war.
dude it's funny how you just leave out 40 years of history. Isreal has made comprimise after comprimise for as long as I can remember only to be met with kidnappings, hijackings and for the past 10 years suicide/homicide bombings.
Everybody beats around the bush and doesn't look at the true cause of the problem which IMNSHO is the palestinian/arab need want or desire to kill all Jews on this planet. Until that is solved there will never be peace in the region or until they finaly get their wish and anialate Isreal.
You have to know that Arafat is working for Sadam to keep pressure off of him and keep the world's attention on Isreal/Palestine and away from Iraq/Iran/N.Korea. It's total roadkill how anybody could support these people. They are our freaking enemy for God's sake, remember the dancing on 9/11!!!!!!! They have always been our enemy and probably always will be.
So screw them and their state, they don't deserve it if they can't figure out to NOT kill Isreali's, they deserve what they have earned which is what they have now, a toejam life in a toejam land.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Udie, the difference was the Jordanians granted full rights to the Palestinians.
Here's a newsflash. They did all that AFTER THEY HAD KICKED THE PLO OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY.
See, somehow the Jordan government realized that maybe it wasnt the smartest thing in the world to let a terrorist organisation exist inside its borders.
Draw your own conclusions from that.
And please dont come up with some "uh.. uh.. .but Ben Guiron said in 1947 that he was a terrorist and wanted to kill arabs, so the Israelis started it" -lame lard assed attempt to switch subject again.
-
Everybody beats around the bush and doesn't look at the true cause of the problem which IMNSHO is the palestinian/arab need want or desire to kill all Jews on this planet
What is one of the central claims of the Palestinians?
The right to return. The right to moe to Israel, become Israeli citizens. There is very little support for the terrorists amongst Israeli Arabs.
Israeli Arabs are much sought after as marriage partners in the West Bank/Gaza, because marrying an Israeli Arab gives the West Bank/Gaza Arab a chance at Israeli citizenship.
They don't want to destroy Israel, they want to BE Israel.
You have to know that Arafat is working for Sadam to keep pressure off of him and keep the world's attention on Isreal/Palestine and away from Iraq/Iran/N.Korea
The Palestinian problem goes back way before Sadam.
The essence of the problem is the Palestinians live in refugee camps, and have done for 50 years. They want something better.
Here's a newsflash. They did all that AFTER THEY HAD KICKED THE PLO OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY.
Another Newsflash:
Israel kicked the PLO out of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967.
What has Israel done with the territories since then? Most of the men of the West Bank have lived their entire lives under Israeli occupation. In all that time, they have been treated as non-citizens. No votes, no representation, just a military government, military law, curfews, travel bans, exile, troops on the street, houses demolished, all while Israel is bringing in it's own citizens to live the high life at their expense.
You can bet that after 35 years of occupation, you'd be pretty pissed as well.
See, somehow the Jordan government realized that maybe it wasnt the smartest thing in the world to let a terrorist organisation exist inside its borders.
Jordan recognized that it couldn't just keep cracking down on the Palestinians, and made them citizens.
35 years Israel ran the territories. What exactly did it give the Palestinians? Where was the effort to integrate them, or set up alternative leadership?
What genius came up with the plan that would have had permament military occupation, and expected no revolt?
-
Nashwan spoke....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everybody beats around the bush and doesn't look at the true cause of the problem which IMNSHO is the palestinian/arab need want or desire to kill all Jews on this planet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is one of the central claims of the Palestinians?
I believe the destruction of Isreal is still in their charter....
The right to return. The right to moe to Israel, become Israeli citizens. There is very little support for the terrorists amongst Israeli Arabs.
Who to say that will not happen? Gotta get past step one to get to the end of the line though. Step one is to get the crazy notion out of their heads that Jews need to be slaughtered. What's so hard to understand about that?
Israeli Arabs are much sought after as marriage partners in the West Bank/Gaza, because marrying an Israeli Arab gives the West Bank/Gaza Arab a chance at Israeli citizenship.
Well having sex seems like a lot better of a way to do that then by bombing inocents....
They don't want to destroy Israel, they want to BE Israel.
ROFLOL!!! That is one of the stupedist things I've ever read on the subject. Oops just too bad that the only way for them to be Isreal is to kill all the Jews eh?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to know that Arafat is working for Sadam to keep pressure off of him and keep the world's attention on Isreal/Palestine and away from Iraq/Iran/N.Korea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Palestinian problem goes back way before Sadam.
yup you can trace it to the old testement....
The essence of the problem is the Palestinians live in refugee camps, and have done for 50 years. They want something better.
That's a BS excuse.
Well why don't the make something better? There's land there. Why don't some of the terror organizers start organising "building clubs" and actually build themselves a better place to live. They get untold millions of dollars from US, the UN the EU all the other murdereing arab countries. What do they do with the money? They use it to kill Jews instead of trying to better their own people. When 70% say they support the murderes that to me makes 70% of them murdering. Which makes them terrorist, which is why I wonder why do we even talk to them?
They are reaping what they have sown and deserve every bit of it. They are lucky they still exist....
Where's the Palestinian peace movement? Is there one? They want death and death they shall have........
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Another Newsflash:
Israel kicked the PLO out of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967.
What has Israel done with the territories since then? [SNIP pointless drivel]
And then Israel let the PLO back in thanks to the Oslo deal..remember? And when did the suicide bombing campaign pick up steam? Hmmm....COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A CONNECTION?
Jordan recognized that it couldn't just keep cracking down on the Palestinians, and made them citizens.
35 years Israel ran the territories. What exactly did it give the Palestinians? Where was the effort to integrate them, or set up alternative leadership?
What genius came up with the plan that would have had permament military occupation, and expected no revolt?
Jordan kicked out the PLO in a war, after that, no more terrorist actions inside Jordan. Israel should do the same thing.
What did those 35 years give the Pals? Who knows? Who cares?
-
What did those 35 years give the Pals? Who knows? Who cares?
The Palestinians care.
That's why they think killing Israelis is a good idea. 35 years of occupation brought them nothing. As you say, they weren't suicide bombing Israel until recently.
So, 30 years of occupation got them nothing. War is going to look like a good option at that point.
Well why don't the make something better? There's land there. Why don't some of the terror organizers start organising "building clubs" and actually build themselves a better place to live.
Palestinians do build themselves places to live. Israel knocks them down again. About 3000 Palestinian houses were demolished by Israel since 1987.
Jordan kicked out the PLO in a war, after that, no more terrorist actions inside Jordan. Israel should do the same thing.
Israel did do the same thing.
However, instead of following it up with fairness and justice, Israel followed it up with military occupation.
Ever heard the phrase "no taxation without representation"? Palestinians had to pay taxes to Israel as well, even though they had no votes.
America fought it's war of independence over much less.
-
Hm...I cant help but notice that you "forgot" to comment on one of my lines there...Let me write that again.
And then Israel let the PLO back in thanks to the Oslo deal..remember? And when did the suicide bombing campaign pick up steam? Hmmm....COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A CONNECTION?
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Hm...I cant help but notice that you "forgot" to comment on one of my lines there...Let me write that again.
Dude the terrorist/murderer supporters gloss over alot of facts. Really any fact that goes against their argument.
Here's an example brought to us by Nashwan...
That's why they think killing Israelis is a good idea. 35 years of occupation brought them nothing. As you say, they weren't suicide bombing Israel until recently.
That was before Isreal let them have the PA which is when the bombings started. What 9 or 10 years ago? Before that they resorted to hijackings and kidnappings. Don't forget the Isreali olympic team, all the planes hijacked inthe 80's and 70's. The kidnappings of Jews and Americans, executions of kidnap victims.
They had there chance under Clinton (probobly the best thing he did as president) and they chose violence and death for Isreal. So that's what they are being paid back in dividends now....
-
And then Israel let the PLO back in thanks to the Oslo deal..remember? And when did the suicide bombing campaign pick up steam? Hmmm....COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A CONNECTION?
Probably yes.
The Palestinians have a little more freedom now than they did.
They also, after a few years of hope, finally realised with Baraks proposals that they wouldn't get free of the occupation.
Here's an alternative that could bring peace:
Israel is occupied by the Arabs. Jews are allowed to remain, but with no say in the running of the country. Jews can pay taxes, but not have representation.
Jews will have to apply to the Arab authorities for the right to travel abroad, and to travel to different parts of Palestine.
Jews will have their water rationed, and will give up the best land for Arab families to move in. Any Jew that speaks out against this situation will be exiled.
The government will hold all the land confiscated from the Jews "for the benefit of the Arab people"
Sounds fair?
Bear in mind, that you seem to think the above scenario is fine, as long as the words Jews and Arabs are switched.
That sounds like racism to me.
-
There`s a little problem with that Nashwan.
Those jews would be slaughtered very quickly,so there would be nobody to restrict with those rules.
The Palestinians have a little more freedom now than they did.
There You go.
They get a "little more freedom",what they do with it?
Off course they go kill jews,brainwash their own childeren so all they`ll want to do when they grow up is to kill jews.
I think it was a mistake of the israelis not to give the pals citizenship in 1967,but it`s too late now.If these maniacs have free range to roam Israel now,there would be total caos.
-
Originally posted by Nashwan
Bear in mind, that you seem to think the above scenario is fine, as long as the words Jews and Arabs are switched.
That sounds like racism to me.
Well you almost got it right, replace the word "Jews" with "only democratic governement in the region defending it's very existance" and replace the work "arabs" with "Thirsty for Jewish blood invading murderers" and it will be more realistic.
So when we have the next AlQueda bombing and the pal's start dancing again, are you still going to support them
With us or against us dude, I hope you learn quick that the pals are defenately not with us!
-
Originally posted by Udie
Well you almost got it right, replace the word "Jews" with "only democratic governement in the region defending it's very existance" and replace the work "arabs" with "Thirsty for Jewish blood invading murderers" and it will be more realistic.
So when we have the next AlQueda bombing and the pal's start dancing again, are you still going to support them
With us or against us dude, I hope you learn quick that the pals are defenately not with us!
LOL what a moron :D
-
cc
:D
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
I'll try it again. It aint the picture in itself that pisses me off. Its how he used it to try to score some cheap point or whatever.
This [picture of soldier] leads to this [picture of a suicide bombing].
Apparently he must be under the impression that we all are incapable of coherent thought, and he feels a need to explain stuff with pictures.
I would never post a picture of Yasser Arafat and a picture of some dead guy in Jenin and caption it "This leads to this" or whatever. It is sick, disrespectful and it is tasteless.
You must really be into radio if a little short sharp vision takes a bite out of your honed intellectualism.
If I wanted to attack your pretensions with a little see spot run A to B photography I could've gone the dismembered bodies, perhaps a little Auschwitz class oppression with a liberal helping of the Anti-palestinian/Anti-Isreali propaganda line, but remarkably I didn't.
Please do take your tear stained eyes back to the pictures, and have a real HARD look. Perhaps you might see a picture of a distressed family under the eyes of a rifle weilding soldier (yes Eagler there could be a different context - But the original article I first saw this picture refered to the forced evictions of Palestinian families from thier homes) and how simple and short the journey really has become from living under the IDF's rifles to the rational of committing such atrocities to further your causes, like the pictures the BBC so ignorantly expressed themselves...But what would they know, haven't they heard of the BBC radio either?
Tronsky
-
Originally posted by Staga
LOL what a moron :D
Coming from a muderer supporter I'll take that as a compliment....