Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: R4M on April 22, 2001, 05:21:00 PM
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This is not intended to be a whine, nor anything like that. This is not because one has shot me down, nor because the hispanos...this is only because I happened to take a glance at the tour 15 stats. And I dont intend to start a flamefest so please, keep the head cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Today, 23-4-2001, with one week of TOD left, the F4U1-C has 20000 kills awarded.If we extrapolate this tendence, we can see that, for the end of the TOD, the plane will ammount for almost 27000 kills.
The second for now is the N1K2 with 9000. The third the Spitfire IX with 8300
Just for the sake of comparison, the La7 is 5300 and the P51D 4300. THe Fw190D9 has 3600 and the 109G10 3800.
Frankly, I could care less if its the map or not, because with the other map it was,too the most used plane by far.
The Chog is found everywhere, and it is getting worse every tour that passes by.
With all due sincerity,and IMHO, I simply dont understand what is HTC waiting for to perk it.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Look children at the big smelly dead horse.
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I agree, it should be perked. Not just because it is overused, but because only 200 of them ever saw combat. It shouldn't be the dominant plane, in fact it should even be a major plane. It should be a bit-player, rarely seen.
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Yup, the HTC guys were alseep at the wheel when this beast was conceived!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yeager
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I found it quite amusing that Ta-152 is a perk-plane but C-Hog isn't...
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Every tour the same stats are pointed out - nothing happens!!!
Didn't Pyro mention once the the CHog would be perked on next host update? Well, several updates later CHog is still dominating the arena!
Perk the CHog (cheap) that's all I am asking for!
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~Kirin~
(http://members.tripod.de/Sir_Kirin/Sig_Ta152f150.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 04-22-2001).]
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If you want more perks, just perk everything over 1.0 k/d.
N1k was what, 8th best k/d of fighters last tour?
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Well, it seems to me that a majority of the subscribers don't want it perked. While the argument to perk the F4U1-C can gather plenty of support here on the BB, there's still plenty of people flying the bird, as indicated by the stats in Ram's post. Anyone think this is incorrect?
I don't feel I have anything to gain if the Chog is perked, and I certainly don't have anything to lose (since I don't fly it), but I have not problem with it's presence as it is.
SOB
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Sad thing is, if they'd just waited till the perk system, they could have introduced it as a cheap perk without any controversy.
Now, when it gets perked, it's the s***storm of all s***storms.
All I can figure is that it was a bit of "We've got something WB doesn't"-ism.
Though, HTC has liked cannon hogs for a long time. Didn't they introduce the F4U-4 with cannons years back in WB, and then took the cannons off when people pointed out that there were no F4U-4 20mm Hogs in WWII?(There are a great many sources that confuse the CHog with the F4U-4 with 20mm).
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it seems to me that there will always be a "c-hog". If you perk it, get rid of it, whatever.. people will just fly the N1K. Why? Because people just want to win, and they dont care enough to learn a new challenging AC. They want the easy road and they want to win. And why not!!! Just because YOU or I choose that route, why should they? Its their money. I personally dont get it when i think about this hate for the C-Hog. Oh..I understand your arguments, I just dont seem to have the same probs exclusively with it. The AC/pilot combo punishes you for making mistakes. You screw up, a 4 hispano bird hurts. Its just rediculous to hear the whine.
And RAM.. dont try to disguise it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Just because you throw a different tone on it, its still whine and puke and trash... you know. You have certainly heard it before.
sincerely..
ammo
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hehehe as I'm used to say:
The P51-H will not be perked either, Wohoo!
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Perk the Chog. If the dweebs want to HO endlessly it's going to cost them. They'll have to buy that HO laserwagen.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Fighter vs Fighter stats so far in Tour 15:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tou15FvF-mid-kills.GIF)
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Same stats sorted by K/D:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/Tou15FvF-mid-kd.GIF)
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"You screw up, a 4 hispano bird hurts"
Yes, im sure I made a big mistake when that chog is at d1.1 and spraying those 1 ping wonder guns.
Perk the Chog, Perk the N1k, Fix the 38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It was explained to me that the entire reason there are perk points and perk planes was to avoid the arena being out of balance due to the introduction of late war "uber" planes. It seems to me that the premise of balance is a fantasy. The chog and niki show in the numbers that there is no real balance as far as play in the game is concerned. Since a balanced MA is not a reality in practice why is HTC bothering with perking the rest of the "uber" planes? Stop the nonsense of perks, points and scores. Just fly what ya want how ya want. If you can't handle that then get a box game.
Mav
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It would seem the main reason for the increased numbers is people believed the hysteria, right up to when they got killed by an A5 or D9.
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I am sure there will be "another Chog" if they perk it. That doesn't bother me, as long as it's a plane that had a significant role in WWII, instead a plane that barely saw any action.
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Comon people the Chog is not that big a threat. Its not a world-beating airframe, I've never found the chog to be a major challenge (in a tiffie). Spray and pray at d1.1? Sure chogs do it all the time, but so do 51s, 190s, Jugs, and Dhogs... all with the same net effect - a lucky BB does damage. A gentle weave usually takes care of most sprayers.
Chogs only get to me when all they do is pull stupid HOs (as in stupid by blowing all E to pull the HO). Then I do the channel #1 "die..." as they go down in flames.
Perk the chog and they will move to something else, my $$$ is on the the N1ki, then Spit.
I would like to see the N1ki FM examined. OK maybe it can zoom, but the torque thing is a question. And the n1ki is one of the few a/c that can follow my tiffie through a 500kias manoevre. Surely such a light airframe could not withstand those forces? The same manoevres pull 109s, 190s, 51's, Jugs, and Spits apart -> why not the ultra-light-airframe n1ki?
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Again vulcan, 51's, 190's (ive never seen one spray beyond d.700 though) jugs and dhogs will not kill you 90% of the time with that ONE golden bb. Also, take into account that your tiffie generally gets beyond d1.1 much, much faster than other planes, so you may not experience this "problem" as commonly as others (btw, "gentle weave" in a non- 190d9/p51/tiffie = chog gets closer in most cases) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I would like to see the n1k fm examined too. Turn at 9gs 360 and still have E and power to climb after and CATCH a P-38 that is climbing 90 degrees up after a 450 mph dive is something I find extremely hard to believe.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
If you want more perks, just perk everything over 1.0 k/d.
N1k was what, 8th best k/d of fighters last tour?
i say perk any plane version past its original production model.
that means until we get F4U-1A, the Dhog would be base model, P51b base model 51D perk, and so on and so on, a5 A8 f7 base, D9 152 perk. what ever the earliest model planes we have of each kind should be base plane and the other later versions perk.
the later the version the more perkies it should cost to fly.
Whels
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I agree with RAM, but only because of its usage numbers.
10% of all fighter kills I can live with, 20% is ridicules. I don't see the N1K2 in anywhere near the same league as the F4U-1C. If it were made a cheap, say 10 point, perk I believe the F4U-1C user would disperse to several other aircraft, probably the following aircraft would get the majority:
F4U-1D (F4U fans)
N1K2-J (spray and pray, need a lot of cannon ammo guys)
Spitfire MkIX (has Hispanos and like to turn guys)
Typhoon (has 4 Hispanos and is fast on the deck guys)
La7 (fast on the deck and turns alright guys)
P-47D-30 (has a lot of ammo and ordinance guys)
P-38L (has a lot of ammo and ordanance guys)
Fw190D-9 (fast on the deck and has a lot of ammo guys)
The F4U-1C offers more versatility in a single package that any other aircraft. That is why it is, and will always be, the most common aircraft in the MA unless it is perked. There is nothing wrong with being the most common, but when the next aircraft in line has less that 50% of the kills the leader has, there is an imbalance. The reason the F4U-1C is so good is as follows:
Scale Used:
Terrible Poor Average Good Excellent
F4U-1C
Speed: Good
Climb: Average
Dive: Excellent
Firepower: Excellent
Durability: Excellent
Acceleration: Poor
Ammo Endurance: Excellent
Roll Rate: Excellent
Fuel Endurance: Good
Ordinance: Excellent
Turn Capability: Good
Lets compare the runners up:
N1K2-J
Speed: Poor
Climb: Good
Dive: Good
Firepower: Good
Durability: Average
Acceleration: Excellent
Ammo Endurance: Excellent
Roll Rate: Average
Fuel Endurance: Good
Ordinance: Average
Turn Capability: Excellent
Spitfire F.MkIX
Speed: Average
Climb: Good
Dive: Good
Firepower: Good
Durability: Average
Acceleration: Good
Ammo Endurance: Poor
Roll Rate: Good
Fuel Endurance: Poor
Ordinance: Average
Turn Capability: Excellent
The F4U-1C simply does too many jobs better than any other aircraft. When you have a single aircraft that fills so many rolls, and fills them on the spur of the moment, it is obvious that it will get picked most. People will pick the best all round tool for the jobs out there if they are going into an environment in which they don't know what kind of job they will have to do. If they know before hand, such as do close base defense, they will take the best tool for the job, but if it is unknown they will take the tool that best covers as many jobs as possible. Far and away, in Aces High, the F4U-1C is that tool.
The F4U guys will still have a hog in the form of the F4U-1D, they lose nothing.
Perk the damn all-in-one fighter!
Perk the F4U-1C!!!
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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this is not about the map, or the planes, or the guns. its about psychology.
people dont like to lose. so they look for something to blame, and the other guy is very easy to blame.
i can beat any chog just fine in a P-38. I might have some problems beating a chog in a 202, but if i think well, i can take my time and beat it.
because I am a better pilot. i am such a better pilot, that i see little difference between my plane and what the other guy is flying.
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Nethawk:Does your squad openly shoot down chutes?
Fatty:At times, but only if they want to.
Nethawk:Theyre scum
Fatty:cc they are scum
Fatty:as am I
Fat DRUNK Bastards
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Speed: Poor
Climb: Good
Dive: Good
Firepower: Good
Durability: Average
Acceleration: Excellent
Ammo Endurance: Excellent
Roll Rate: Average
Fuel Endurance: Good
Ordinance: Average
Turn Capability: Excellent
I'd make some changes to that:
Speed: GOOD (you mean 450mph is POOR? That thing can hold that E forever)
Climb: Good
Dive: Good
Firepower: Good
Durability: Good (takes a toejamload of lead to kill, can fly and fight without wings)
Acceleration: Excellent
Ammo Endurance: Excellent
Roll Rate: Good (can roll as almost as fast as la5... thats average?)
Fuel Endurance: Good
Ordinance: Average
Turn Capability: Excellent (heh, unreal more like it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
Added:
"this is not about the map, or the planes, or the guns"
Animal, you still believe your GF when she says size dont matter do you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 04-22-2001).]
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pleeeeeeeeeeeease make them stop make them stop!!!
join me this week in national 'stop whining about the fu*&ing hog week'.
show your support by wearing a blue ribbon (with yellow ends).
chog whines waste an average of 26 minutes per day and can lead to cancer of the genitals. chog whines have also been known to lead to teen pregnancy and misbehavior. help me stop the madness. chog whines waste valuable time that could be wasted online.
oh yeah my opinion....let's see....hmmmm....perking it sounds like a great idea - just make it cheap. oh....also not perking it sounds like a great idea - also talking to my cat sounds like a great idea as does having a piece of gum.....i could care less i kill plenty of em- dont you?? - but please do something these thread are getting irritating.
(this response was funded entirely by the 'friends of stop whining about the fu%%%ing hog week' and no federal money was issued to this end)
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yeah fish, i wanna buy a blue & yellow ribbon
today i will wear my "stop whinning and start TRAINING" t-shirt
but i wont wear any pants.
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Nethawk: Does your squad openly shoot down chutes?
Fatty: At times, but only if they want to.
Nethawk: Theyre scum
Fatty: cc they are scum
Fatty: as am I
Fat DRUNK Bastards
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Are you guys even literate? We keep writing and you guys keep having a different conversation. Here you go, try understanding this:
Its not about <censored> LOSING TO IT!!!!
GOT IT?
Its about the freaking fact that it has 20000 kills and its nearest rival has 9000!!!
Some of us simply want to have fights with things other than F4U-1Cs.
GOT IT?
No, of course not. That would actually take the ability to read.
Tac,
I stand by my assesment of the N1K2. My reasons are as follows, where we disagreed:
Speed: Poor (370 is poor. I have never had it come even close to sustaining 450. Every fighter can reach 450, so by your logic all fighters have good speed. I don't buy it.)
Climb: Good
Dive: Good
Firepower: Good
Durability: Average (I was being generous. I have NEVER had one take a beating, regardless of what end I was on.)
Acceleration: Excellent
Ammo Endurance: Excellent
Roll Rate: Average (Its roll rate is average because it is good at low speed and poor and moderate to high speeds, thus Average.)
Fuel Endurance: Good
Ordinance: Average
Turn Capability: Excellent (The Spitfire MkIX, Spitfire MkV, Seafire MkIIc and A6M5b all out turn the N1K2, that hardly makes it unreal. Gee, those five are the best turning aircraft in the game, they all rate excellent. Imagine that, things that turn well, turn well.)
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Aye, yet I stand by mine because:
Speed: Only P51, 109s, yaks and la's (dunno about 190's..maybe the d9?) can KEEP 400 mph + for long periods of time. My P-38, a 205 or a spit can go up to it after a dive that for sure, but level and see how fast it bleeds out. N1k can keep it much longer than most other planes.
Durability: Maybe its a varying degree of experience. with what plane do you usually shoot a n1k with? 50 cal planes barely hurt that thing on a short burst (when compared with hitting a P-47!), 20mm cracks it after a good burst, 30mm+ will kill it (of course lol). Ive had n1ks without wings keep on fighting (aka looping endlessly) taking snaphots at its attackers.
Roll Rate: I said good because most fights happen at 350 mph or less. Try using rudder when trying to roll at high speeds, you will keep up with all good high-speed rollers.
Turn: N1k turns a LOT better than spit or zeke at 300mph+. Add that to the insta-E drive and we'll see who keeps turning the longest (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On a side note, how many chogs and n1ks did you stumble on per day on the uterus map? I never saw more than 2 a day on average. Isles map, its 50+.
That say something ?
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Hows this for an idea, have the ENY values directly reflect the number of take offs by non-perk aircraft.
The F4U-1C would remain unperked, but ENY values would be changed to the numbers (using kills instead of take offs as I don't have access to takeoffs) in these examples:
F4U-1C: ENY 10
N1K2-J: ENY 22
Spitfire IX: ENY 24
La7: ENY 38
P-51D: ENY 47
Bf109G-10: ENY 53
Fw190D-9: ENY 56
A6M5b: ENY 65
C.202: ENY 1176
Have the ENY values canged hourly, or daily to reflect aircraft usage in the MA.
If the ENY divergence redlects their real usage, and the perk rewards are dramatic enough, maybe people would actually pay attention to the ENY values. As it is, the ENY values have gradually declined until they are no longer a motivating factor in flying that aircraft.
BTW,
It would be better to do this based on number of take offs with a given type, not its kills, but I don't have access to those numbers.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 04-22-2001).]
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well karnak you seem to hang around CVs all day cause I see F4U as much as any other plane.
in fact, i see more 190 than f4u.
alright, perk it. let say everyone flies the chog like you babble about.
those people will move to another plane. professor karnak will be pissed.
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Animal,
What did you think of my second idea. The one presented right above your post? It doesn't involve perking the F4U-1C.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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sorry didnt read that one, my browser didnt update.
while it is a good idea, it wont reduce the number.
I have noticed most people who fly the chog dont care about perk points. they dont use them.
they only care about winning. they only care about hit sprites. hit sprites are very addictive!! oh my god.
i think this I would add anything good to this discussion, because when i fight, i dont fight planes. i fight pilots. planes do not matter much to me, they are only an indication of the way the pilot is gonna try to fight against me.
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oh my god i'm drunk
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I don't have any problem killing a C-hawg. The problem is when there's 3-4 of 'em 7-900 yards back. That's some more spray pattern they can throw at you, and it only takes a couple pings. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Looking at it from a pure #'s standpoint, She does look like a perk candidate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I dont care if they perk it or not. If its for reasons of historical accuracy so be it. If its for reasons of arena ballance then you may want to give your head a shake cause there will always be that one dweeb plane that everyone hates. Personally I would rather it be the big fat ugly lumbering bad climbing turd that is the chog.
I would much rather see the ostwind perked than the chog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by rosco- (edited 04-22-2001).]
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If you perk it. I don't see those guys going to the nik. Chog is a B n Z'er. They aren't switching to a turn fighter. Imagine the sky full of 30 mm armed, climbs like a rocket, G-10's.
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Yep u are right 30mm d1.1 pings, the famous 109G10 no e-loss instaturns, its sparkling manuverability at 400mph, its outstanding dive handling, and how can anyone forget its whopping 60 rds of ammo, its unbelivable roll rate, its ablity to pop tanks in one pass, its stunning 250kg bomb load, the 30mm awesome flat trajecory and 700yd snapshot spray kill powers. Yep G10 is exactly what the chog following is after. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The simple fact is that chog dominates AH main arena every tour regardless of map, this one just makes it more obvious. Its not right that such an insignificant turd of a US Navy afterthought which saw minimal use in the war comepletely rules AH, please don't try to argue over this fact as the numbers are very clear- AH is ruled by chogs.
Whether this is appropriate is where we can all fairly disagree.
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Originally posted by Tac:
Durability: Maybe its a varying degree of experience. with what plane do you usually shoot a n1k with? 50 cal planes barely hurt that thing on a short burst (when compared with hitting a P-47!), 20mm cracks it after a good burst, 30mm+ will kill it (of course lol). Ive had n1ks without wings keep on fighting (aka looping endlessly) taking snaphots at its attackers.
Right, I see, so this Niki is wingless and is doing endless loops and shooting at the enemy. I'm sure that has nothing to do with a connection problem.
I've flown the Niki. A Lot. It was just about the only plane I flew from Tour 7 to Tour 11. If you lose one wingtip in the Niki you're done fighting, and you can land it if you're careful and lucky enough. If you lose two wingtips you're soon to be mating with the earth. If you lose one entire wing, you're in the same boat as if you lost two wingtips.
The laws of physics (as modeled in AH) apply equally to the Niki as they do to any other plane in the arena. You fly with your head and use good tactics you'll get the most out of it. You fly like an idiot and you can be killed by anything that flies...except maybe the 202 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sorry to interrupt. You can now continue your crying about the Niki in every thread you can squeeze it into.
SOB
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You're right. Neither can be stopped. By anything. And they can kill from 2000 yards. And zoom at 500 mph. For an hour. Yeah, that's the reason you died, had nothing to do with anything you did. The fact they don't lead k/d means nothing. People like it and you don't, it must go.
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Yep u are right 30mm d1.1 pings, the famous 109G10 no e-loss instaturns, its sparkling manuverability at 400mph, its outstanding dive handling, and how can anyone forget its whopping 60 rds of ammo, its unbelivable roll rate, its ablity to pop tanks in one pass, its stunning 250kg bomb load, the 30mm awesome flat trajecory and 700yd snapshot spray kill powers. Yep G10 is exactly what the chog following is after.
Geez Grunherz stop it! Funniest thing I've read on these boards in a while (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You fly like an idiot and you can be killed by anything that flies...except maybe the 202
Hey SOB.. the C.202 is an incredibly efficient aerial killer!
'jekyll has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the C.202 against the N1K2.'
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Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 04-23-2001).]
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I found it quite amusing that Ta-152 is a perk-plane but C-Hog isn't...
How many american planes are perked in AH?
How many german?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i find that non amusing..hih
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AH diversity and balance are just killed by 3 plane types.
IMO, the point is not whether CHOG, Spit or Nikki are a killing machines or not, the point is that these plane are over-over-overused.
Lets go to the opposite corner, imagine the arena full of C202s and C205s. Sooner or later you'll get bored of finding the same enemy plane types over'n over.
The same applies to Osty. When was the last time you saw M16s defending a base?
And now about the perks. IMO, Tempest is not much better than CHog in relation with the rest of planes. Now imagine the Tempest unperked, 80% of CHog pilots will switch to that bird for sure. 90% of Spit pilot will switch also, and, probably, 50% of nikki ones.
The perk system should be useful to keep the arena balanced and with enough diversification to make it funny.
IMO, having an arena full of Zekes is as boring as having it full of F4Us.
Now we have a perk base system for fighters: 152 50p, Tempest 70p, the rest 0p. A good idea should be to increase the perks from the base based on a demand system. More demand = more perks plus the base. Less demand = less perks plus the base. Same system may modify the ENY values.
This way the arena will balance itself dinamically.
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which is what i said in my post which was turned into a you fly to much therefore you are burnt out. The point is I am bored of fighting 3 planes end of story.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl harbor?" Famous quote from Animal House, John Belushi.
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WTG Tac preach on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Karnak get lost with that shtty nik envy factor 3 i would say
endurance and speed excellent
also feul excellent
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I just hope HTC ignores our whines and instead looks at the tour stats. Regardless of how easy you guys find it to kill, it IS the single most dominate aircraft in the arena, and it is by a LONGSHOT.
That is arena imbalance, and that is what the perk system is supposed to address. I'd perk it in a heartbeat, and it'd cost you 25 to get it out of the hangar!
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Hey SOB.. the C.202 is an incredibly efficient aerial killer!
'jekyll has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the C.202 against the N1K2.'
LOL...I stand corrected! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hmmm, my premonition comes true, you'll see by posts awhile back during the big Chog whine fest that I said "next they will whine about the N1K, and want it removed (perked, by todays standards), then, whats next? There will always be a plane that someone has to base their excuse for dying not to pilot ability, but to what the enemy pilot is flying".
I hate it when I can read the future. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
FTR:Perking the Chog will only take it out of the hands of incompetent and relatively green flyers, and it will remain in the hands of very competent flyers...(After all, most of these pilots would survive, and alot have perkies built up) so your problem would be only that the newbies wouldn't be killing you anymore, you will still be getting shot down by the good pilots. However, I would support the decision by HTC to perk it if they give us the -1A. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The C-hog killed me 15X i killed it 20X
The D-hog killed me 3X i killed it 16X
It looks obviously the C is a cannon dweeb thing still FM is about the same
What good pilots ?
(Kills where made in the manly p38)
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What Karnak has yet to realise, is the keyword in his argument, "Some of us would like.... other" That sums it up. The very basic most primitive argument out there. Do it my way, or I quit. Or better yet, I am gonna whine and whine and whine. This is rediculous... perk the Hog, good idea, I say 10pts. but shessh, get off it. I personally feel that it will not change a damn thing. You are still going to see it, because the majority that are racking up the kills with it, are landing with it!
GO C HOG!
GO C HOG!
GO C HOG!
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Oh Ripsnort - how times change...
Can you remember the "Ban the Chog from AH skies"-tag??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ripsnort:
FTR:Perking the Chog will only take it out of the hands of incompetent and relatively green flyers, and it will remain in the hands of very competent flyers...(After all, most of these pilots would survive, and alot have perkies built up) so your problem would be only that the newbies wouldn't be killing you anymore, you will still be getting shot down by the good pilots.
------------------------------------------
Why would an excellent pilot want to waste his skill in an easy plane. They should prove its the man not the machine by flying 202's <G>
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Krusher, to reply for the strat oriented pilots:
-Its great at ATG
-Its great for strafing
-Its the answer for Osties and tanks
-Its great for snap shots on high speed planes trying to get by you while they try to go for your goon thats IB.
Thats why. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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'it seems to me that there will always be a "c-hog". If you perk it, get rid of it, whatever.. people will just fly the N1K. Why? Because people just want to win, and they dont care enough to learn a new challenging AC. They want the easy road and they want to win. And why not!!! Just because YOU or I choose that route, why should they? Its their money. '
This is why I think the RPS is the only way to approach a flight _simulation_
If majority of players want to dweeb away in chogs, couldn't they just introduce a tie-fighter for them? It would keep the masses happy.. Lol.
In my opinnion, the majority of players need gentle guidance towards learning something NEW and not just going for the easy kills..
The RPS forces people to fly the early birds, forcing the players to learn to fly them in the process. Later in life, this enables them to exploit the weaknesses of different aircraft when fighting them, again making them better pilots.
The way things are now - heck we could just remove 80% of the aircraft and only 10% of players would notice..
Most people here are forgetting the point that when RPS and WW2 arena were introduced in WB, the whining was HUGE! I mean HUGE!
Still, the main arena was empty after that.. People kinda voted with their feet - WW2 arena was full day from day.
Now which one you figure people found more exciting in the end? Was it the arena that was left empty? Blah.
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Here is an idea. Get rid of the combat trim. Before ver 1.04 came along, the G-10 was fast becomming the plane of choice.
OH! And dump the auto take off while your at it.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-23-2001).]
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I'd like to see score factored into the perk equation. Say anyone greater than 1000, 500, etc (whatever decided level) in ranking would not need any perk points and would be allowed to fly them all. That way the newbies (read - New Customers) would not be penalized for their inexperience. At the same time we'd all be able to fly any plane at the beginning of each tour until we were ranked. Seems like a system like would tie all the elements of the game together.
Oh Yeah - No perk points unless you land and return to tower.
Eagler
(smiling - climbs into his 109f)
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Just like old times, isn't it?
I have a question for those of you whose _major_ complaint in this thread is that you "end up fighting the same three planes all the time" or something along that line. The complaint being that you don't get to fight a larger variety of aircraft.
Do you folks also support the evergreen "axis vs allies arena" suggestion?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Keep it up fellas, I'm sure that the louder and more obnoxious and more annoying you become that they'll listen to you for sure!
(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/yup.gif)
Oh yeah and Hitler is still alive!!! (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/cwm/eek5.gif)
-SW
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Toad,
No, I don't support it.
Of course, I also don't have a problem with any plane that has 10% of MA kills. If a plane has 15+%, then I have a problem with it. In other words, the Spit and N1K don't bother me, frankly I rarely see them.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, I'm sorry, I don't understand you're argument. Why do you have a problem with the numbers? If you aren't having a problem with the chog and from what I've seen you don't, then why do you give a rats bellybutton how many kills it has? I'm not trying to be inflammatory for arguments sake, I'm just curious as to you're position and why you are taking it.
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Apache,
Its pretty simple in my case. I'm tired of fighting aircraft that do the same thing all of the time.
I actually lost to an F4U-1C earlier this tour because it didn't go for the HO when it had the chance. It dove under my P-38 so I assumed it was an F4U-1D, it reversed and chased me down. I tried to use my climb to get away and it started spraying from 900 yards, as I thought it was a 1D I wasn't overly concerned. Then it hit one of my engines. Boom, dead engine and shortly dead P-38. I actually have no problem with the death, I just think its funny that he did it by faking me out into thinking he was in an F4U-1D.
The point is that because it didn't go for an HO I assumed it wasn't an F4U-1C because they so nearly ALWAYS do it. I can avoid HOs and nearly every F4U-1C I kill tried to HO me at some point, but it gets boring to have so many of the fights follow the same script:
He goes for the HO, I nose down and he misses. Repeat until e-states are equal, then kill F4U-1C, rinse, repeat process with next.
Simply put, its boring. I'd like to see a solution that didn't involve perking it, but I'm not sure there is one. It does so many things well that there is no reason to worry about perks because you don't need the perk planes.
Maybe an increased selection of desireable perk planes would work, along with having an ENY value system that moved ENY values up as wellas down.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, you'll notice some started including Spits in their demands in this very thread.
Give whiners an inch and you'll hear them 20 miles away.
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Very well Karnak. Thanks for your reply.
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i got a question. sence you dont want them to fly chogs. what do you want to "force" them to fly.
HT here is a great idea. when ever someone enters the game they system should "force" them to fly a random plane for that day no changin planes . there its fair then not every one will be flying the same plane.
i can see the 5% that are forced to fly goons.lots of fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
see no one can complain.
Trell
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As long as we have the F4U-1D there is a reason to perk the 1C.
Same basic plane, no noticeable differences in flight model.
There'd be some basis for not touching the 1C if we didn't already have the D. But we do have it, and this is one of the fundmentals where the perk system might do what it's suppose to do -- Give a plane a reason to exiest.
This is NOT the situation with any other plane. There are no identical replacements.
Oh well.
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Fatty,
Yes, I've noticed. About all I can say to that is "Ce la vie".
Trell,
I don't want to force them to fly any particular plane. I don't think that everybody who flys the F4U-1C would switch to the same plane if the F4U-1C were made a cheap perk.
It is very possible that this problem willbe solved not by changing the status of the F4U-1C,but by changing the way the armor on the PnZ and Ostwind is done. If they become more or less immune to straffing F4U-1Cs, then we will probably see a decease in the F4U-1Cs popularity and an increase in other aircraft. Hopefully the Il2-M3 will be added in v1.07 and the tank armor will change so there is a reason to use it.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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I see I didnt miss anything while I was gone for the weekend....still playing the same old song around here.
Time to change the record.
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sling322,
We'll "change the record" once the problem is fixed. I don't think most of us care how it is fixed (as long as it doesn't break the game worse than the current problem does), we just want it fixed.
It is natural for people to be persistent about something when it matters to them, and, in the current state of Aces High the F4U-1C is having a detrimental affect of many people's enjoyment of the game that they are paying for. We pay our $30.00 per month, we WILL be vocal about the things that we see as a problem. You might want to reconsider whether or not this is a problem, after all there are many people who have been arguing it for so long, there might be something to our position. Usually an unwarranted position does not attract much interest nor is it long sustained. That might tell you guys something.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Aren't ya glad R4M is back so we can all waste our friggin time arguing about the F4u1C.
Perk it.
Perk the D9 because there are several 190's and the D9 is the latest version.
Perk the G10. I don't care if you think it shouldn't be.....we have a bunch of em so why not perk it too.
Perk the Spit IX....there are two of those so why not.
Lets perk the P47d30 because it carries more bombs than the 25 and hell we have two of them.
OK I'll stop now. This is where we will eventually end up.
I don't have an answer for the "problem" because I honestly don't fear the Chog nor do I see a bunch of them in the arena.
PS R4M...can you quit again soon or I may lose the bet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Thanks!
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Originally posted by Karnak:
sling322,
We'll "change the record" once the problem is fixed. I don't think most of us care how it is fixed (as long as it doesn't break the game worse than the current problem does), we just want it fixed.
It is natural for people to be persistent about something when it matters to them, and, in the current state of Aces High the F4U-1C is having a detrimental affect of many people's enjoyment of the game that they are paying for. We pay our $30.00 per month, we WILL be vocal about the things that we see as a problem. You might want to reconsider whether or not this is a problem, after all there are many people who have been arguing it for so long, there might be something to our position. Usually an unwarranted position does not attract much interest nor is it long sustained. That might tell you guys something.
you keep saying "we", please quit speaking for a general group. It does not enforce your position. I know there are a few that dislike the corsair, but they are a minority.
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Unfortunately, Karnak, there's really no way to know if the F4U-1c is having a detrimental affect on a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER of people's enjoyment of the game.
The running debate occurs on this BBS. There is no way for any players to know how many people "lurk" here without comment.
All we can see is the few ...yes, few compared to the actual number of players... that post here either pro or con. There's about 70 posts in this thread and most folks have made multiple posts. So maybe 35-40 players are participating in this discussion. Maybe. It's probably less.
Opinion is divided within this tiny group.
While I'm sure there are some players that view it as a problem of MAJOR proporitions, there is simply no way to tell how much of the actual player base feels that way.
Those opposed to the F4U-1C unperked may in fact be an overwhelming Majority.
OR they may be an overwhelmingly minimal Minority.
There's certainly no mandate either way so far.
I think there is a tendency to believe that if 10 guys agree with something on the BBS, then it must be the way to go.
There's just no data to support that.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-23-2001).]
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-ammo-, Toad,
True, to a point. But you can't expect those of us who have a problem with it to just shut up because you don't like the message.
I think this map makes the problem worse, and hopefully with the armor changes in v1.07 it'll fix itself as the F4U-1C will hopefully no longer be able to straff tanks to death with any reliability.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, I'll take that further and hope there's an increase in MG lethality to open turret ostwinds.
That aside, the reason you have so many people that don't fly the 1c defending it is because one someone says "the only reason I don't like it..." they're lying.
You can find posts by the same people at different times saying "the only reason I don't like it is the guns", then later saying "the only reason I don't like it is the flight model", then "the only reason I don't like it is the numbers", then "the only reason..." blah blah ad infinitum.
On the surface, I could really care less if the plane was removed entirely, but I am more concerned about the precedent of rewarding the loudest whiners.
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Sorry Karnak, but I dont see a problem with the F4U-1C myself. I find it ridiculous that the same guys are always here on the boards advocating the removal of this plane and offering as their reason "the majority of players have a problem with it and want it removed too." Sure it may kill me, but I kill it too. Sure it may HO ya, but hell, I will HO ya too....in anything I fly. Its not like HTC hasnt read the other 3,546,821 posts whining about the C-hog being in the game. Keep on whining....the louder you get the better HTC listens. If ya wanna keep whining about it, please, just punt one of the other 3,546,821 posts rather than starting a new one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Keep it up fellas, I'm sure that the louder and more obnoxious and more annoying you become that they'll listen to you for sure!
(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/other/yup.gif)
-SW
Which part did you all not understand?
The "getting more annoying", or the "more obnoxious"... or is the part about "getting louder"?
The one thing I don't like about a broken record, or to bring it up to speed with today's technology- a scratched CD stuck on the same bit, is that I simply can not f'in stand the annoying, obnoxious and absolutely repititious crap that is eminating from the speakers.
Beginning to catch on now?
-SW
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From the number of people flying the F4U-1C one would have to assume that it is contributing greatly to the enjoyment of the game for a lot of players.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
From the number of people flying the F4U-1C one would have to assume that it is contributing greatly to the enjoyment of the game for a lot of players.
Hooligan
Then perk all the rest so we can all rejoice with the fully enjoyable Chogs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<G,D,R>
Now seriously, I say I dont understand why is not perked. The Perk system was introduced "to limit the usage of planes wich could be unballancing in the Main Arena". And in my own (free and private) interpretation, the ammount of usage that the Chog gets in the Main Arena makes it an unballancing plane.
BTW, and in any case... the Fw190D9 goes with five times less kills than the Chog...I guess,then, than the ENY of the D9 should be 50 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-23-2001).]
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Rip reminds us once again why the Chog is such a neato addition to what was once an excellent combat simulation but is now little more then a juvenile game:
====
-Its great at ATG
-Its great for strafing
-Its the answer for Osties and tanks
-Its great for snap shots on high speed planes trying to get by you while they try to go for your goon thats IB.
Thats why.
====
again you seem to leave the most important reason out Rip:
-Its great for folks that dont have the time nor the inclination to do anything other than fly around and jerk off at every poor SOB that happens to be anywhere near them.
Thats why so many people seem to enjoy it eh hooli, its pure masterbation.
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 04-23-2001).]
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Dang Yeager, I'm in the wrong plane. With the ability to browse porn on the clipboard, we've got something very promising here.
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Just for the sake of argument, how many "Perk the Spit" or "Perk the 109g10" or "Perk the La7" threads have popped up in the last 4 tours when compared with "Perk the Chog" and "Perk the N1k" threads?
Also, which planes are quite usually the top killers, even with NEWBIES flying it most of the time?
Which planes are the ones that have characteristics which are most hotly debated as being "probably" way overmodelled?
Many thing point to only 2 specific planes, once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, thrice is a conspiracy.
There is no spoon.
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As a new player, I like the C-hog. I get a lucky shot and I get a kill. The spit and the German Iron I don't fly so well. So I guess I should fly an inferior AC and die more often. I'm not a RL flyer nor do I have a lot of time to spend online, so the best AC for me is the HOG. After all; the MA is fantacy just like the rest of the game. When did P-51 fight Spits? Wasn't the F4u used mainly in the Pacific?
I don't know the answer to the problem. I would just hate to see the elimination of any AC. I love planes. I can't fly the perked planes because I'm not good enough to accumulate the perk points. Perking the F4U-C would eliminate it for me.
blutic
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It's not invincible, it's not the easiest to fly, if you are competent- it's an easy kill, it doesn't snap roll like a 190(can we say scissors???), it's definitely not the best turner(at a stall speeds I can hold a 190A5 on a F4U-1C's tail even with his flaps down), and it definitely doesn't zoom very well either.
By those standards alone, it is not "unbalancing".
Hey I gots a idea... hows abouts ya'll actually spend more time flying rather than posting, I bets ya you'd end up understanding hows to better fly your plane and you might learn more aircraft. Imagine, putting the effort into flying that you guys put into squeaking... Dude! Now there's a concept.
-SW
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Its all BS....the damned thing is a joke.
Y
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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AKSeaWulfe,
Gee whiz, that's a thought.
Oh wait, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I can already shoot F4U-1Cs down as easily as anything else, easier than most frankly.
It has NOTHING, in my case, to do with how good it is or is not. It simply has to do with these numbers:
The F4U-1C has 20852 kills
The N1K2 has 9515 kills
The F4U-1C has 11337 kills more than the aircraft in 2nd place. The number two fighter only has 45% of the kills that the F4U-1C has.
That is the only problem I have with it. Its the bloody numbers.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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You need to stop that Yeager... you're getting them all riled up.
You're like that instigator in a room full of kindergartners that need ritalin and haven't taken it that day. You get them bouncing off the walls with a simple sentence and keep sliding in a comment here and there to keep sure you keep 'em all jolted out of their minds screaming about stuff they don't even understand.
Now stop or I'll tell the teacher on you!
-SW
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Assume for a moment that the "universe" of people who would pay to play a WW2 ACM Game as of April 1, 2001 is already aware of Aces High.
From there, extrapolate that out of this universe, about 200 people a night (US night time) do in fact play AH.
Assume that the complaints of "I never see anything but F4U-1C's and N1K1's" is actually an accurate statement. (I haven't seen that.)
Would it not then follow that HT knows his clientele and is giving them what the majority wants?
Originally posted by Karnak:
But you can't expect those of us who have a problem with it to just shut up because you don't like the message.
1. It isn't the message. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don't fly the F4U-1C.
Further, people who DO fly the F4U-1C don't bother me a bit. Whatever happens to the F4U-1C (and the N1K1 for that matter) will not affect the things/reasons I play AH for in the least.
Like Fatty, I'm more "concerned about the precedent of rewarding the loudest whiners." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
2. Do you think HTC can possibly be unaware of the argumentative and accusatory F4U-1C threads that continually pop up on the board?
Of course not.
In this, I feel a bit like SW. This has gone far beyond a "broken record". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't know about you, but if I'm in a situation where I am, for a reason I choose not to share with the petitioner, either unable or unwilling to make a change that he is pestering the Sh*t out of me about making...
I totally tune them out and make a mental note to myself that the pond in Hell needs to freeze solid enough for skating before I revist their particular concern.
In short, I don't think you folks are helping you case one bit.
They are aware of your feelings/case. Either they will address it in their own time... or they won't. In either situation, trying to pressure them probably isn't going to help you achieve your goal.
I feel fortunate that a group as talented as HTC has absolutely worked their prettythanges off so that in my free time I can be a Walter Mitty WW2 Fighter Pilot.
There's things I don't particularly care for in it. There's things I don't think are exactly correct in the modeling. There's things I'd wish they do.
But I would NEVER badger them about it, especially on their own BBS.
I have (and probably will again) sent HT and Pyro E-Mail about my concerns or desires. I try to be polite about it. I try to support my reasoning with facts, not rhetoric.
Most of all, I respect them. They are doing one hell of a job. This game is FUN.
I stand ready to send any of you "continual carpers" my money if you can put out a better game. But I won't hold my breath.
Ha! I meant to put in about a 5 line post. I'll quit. I'm out.
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Originally posted by Yeager:
...jerk off at every poor SOB that happens to be anywhere near them.
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 04-23-2001).]
Yikes!!! Duck SOB!! Yeag's tryin' ta give ya some hair gel or somethin'. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
That is the only problem I have with it. Its the bloody numbers.
Yeah man, it's gotta be the numbers. That's your ONLY problem with it right? Or is it group mentality.. "everyone else is doing it... I think... maybe..."
But boy, lets just blame it on the numbers... that's the ticket!
How's this for numbers?
You have 8 kills of the F4U-1C and have been killed 10 times by it. You have 7 kills of the SpitIX and have been killed 9 times by it. (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/cwm/erm.gif)
Geez man.. it must be the numbers right? I mean... that SpitIX is only off by 1 in each category but I don't see you getting all constipated over it.
Lets just cut the roadkill out right now... what's your real agenda? It sure as hell isn't numbers, if it's numbers then lets get your SpitIX perked too!
But wait, that doesn't help you out at all... hmmmmm (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/cwm/cwm13.gif)
You all are so busy squeaking and too overwhelmed by it that you forgot what you are squeaking about and why you are squeaking. I think you are just squeaking to squeak and piss off everyone else with your whiney squeaking.
Think I said squeaking enough to get it through to any of you? You all are just squeaking, it serves no purpose to the game.
For arguments sake.. how many people HAVE QUIT AND STAYED AWAY from AH because of the F4U-1C?
Everyone complaining about the F4U-1C is apparently too blind to look ahead and see what effects perking the F4U-1C would have. I was around when WB was first created and when ICI still owned and operated it. The majority of aircraft there was the SpitV.. I mean hell... 25% gas was all you needed to get around the arena and the game was all about dogfighting (sometimes base capturing)... so why not take up the best dogfighter?
(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/cwm/eek7.gif)
I'm sorry for those of you that think you can actually force diversity onto a group. You think perking the Chog will evenly distribute the people flying them among other aircraft? You are so far in left field, you aren't even playing baseball.
Perk the Chog today, perk something else tommorrow... if you think the skies full of F4U-1Cs is bad. You people are about to get a gallon of ice cold water poured on your balls. N1K2s, SpitIXs, SpitVs, La7s, 190D9s, 109G10s... I'm not sure which of those would dominate the skies in numbers... but one would and there's no question about it.
You all can settle for the F4U-1C being extremely popular for a TOD, or you can decide to screw the game so bad you would believe you were flying Aces High in hell.
-SW
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SW, nice smilies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
other than that, dude we must live in different worlds, because cant' imagine how could we disagree more about this matter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
They are aware of your feelings/case. Either they will address it in their own time... or they won't. In either situation, trying to pressure them probably isn't going to help you achieve your goal.
Achieve my goal?...oh come on, Toad, I have learnt enough about this to know that HTC will do as THEY think they have to do, not as WE ask them to. And I dont mess with that, because it is the right way to do the things. When they think the Chog must be perked, they will perk it.
And in my original message, wich I still keep as my argument, I say that what I cant understand is why the Chog hasnt been perked yet, nothing else.
I dont yell PERK IT because I (finally (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) know it would mean no difference. I simply say that, from my point of view, we have reached a point where the Perk system is falling off because the basics where the system is based (to keep "uballancing planes" numbers at bay) is being ignored at all,in a sistematical basis,with this particular plane. Or at least I feel it this way.
However, and with the tendence we are seeing (each TOD the Chog gets more used,with the exception of the last one-because the novely of the new planes, I guess-), eventually the Chog will be perked anyway. Its a matter of time.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-23-2001).]
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It's the way the world turns RAM, you aren't going to fix a television with snow on it by putting your foot through the screen now are you?
Believe me, F4U-1Cs are by far not your worst nightmare... you remove it and I'll come visit you sometime while you're in a straight jacket yapping about SpitIXs, N1K2s and La7s RAM.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Believe me, F4U-1Cs are by far not your worst nightmare... you remove it and I'll come visit you sometime while you're in a straight jacket yapping about SpitIXs, N1K2s and La7s RAM.
-SW
I'm not a future teller (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I cant tell how the future will go, but I really doubt that any plane will get the massive use the Chog gets right now.
you seem to be one, tho, because you seem the future quite clearly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Lucky you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-23-2001).]
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Originally posted by R4M:
I'm not a future teller (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I cant tell how the future go, but I really doubt any plane will get the massive use the Chog gets.
you seem to be one, tho, because you seem the future quite clearly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Lucky you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In order to tell the future, look back in the past. It'll tell you a few things.
I've been playing these online games since '93. Not as long as many, but long enough to tell you with 100% certainty that you can remove the top dog, but the next strongest one becomes the next top dog and WILL see the same popularity.
You don't seem to remember 1.03 and the 190A5.
If 8 years of playing these things has taught me one thing, it's that there will always be THE MOST popular plane that will see the SAME AMOUNT of usage by the last popular plane.
You are a smart bellybutton RAM, unfortunately you don't seem to be paying attention.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
You don't seem to remember 1.03 and the 190A5.
I dont see your argument here. In 1.03 tours (5 to 7 IIRC) the Fw190A5 was LESS used than the Chog,except on Tour 6, when the A5 got some 50 kills more IIRC.
We will take the Tour 6 as an example, then.
The number of kills of the Fw190A5 was 8383 and the Chog's 8320 or so.
Just FYI, during 1.03, the P47D-30 got some 7300kills. The N1K2 5653, and the P51D 5259. The P38L got some 4070.
Oh, almost forgot. The Spitfire IX was teh most used plane that TOD. 9763 kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
This is an overall view of TOD 6, the only TOD that the Fw190A5 had more kills than the Chog had in AH's history. And, excuse me , but this numbers show what it is, IMO, a fairly WELL balanced Main arena.
So, please SW, can you tell me...
What happened in 1.03 with the Fw190A5, again? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If 8 years of playing these things has taught me one thing, it's that there will always be THE MOST popular plane that will see the SAME AMOUNT of usage by the last popular plane.
[/b]
I disagree. Some of the Chog crowd (the hardcore Hog fans) will remain with the Dhog, some will move to the NiKi, and the less will fly the tiffie or the Spit. NONE of those planes is likely to get the far outweighting number of kills the Chog gets. At least IMO.
You are a smart bellybutton RAM, unfortunately you don't seem to be paying attention.
-SW
See? we disagree again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-23-2001).]
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You're going by number of kills again RAM, boy that's the biggest mistake.
But even then you still can't add or subtract or maybe you just have a hormonal imbalance (which would lead to your excessive squeakyness)... so here I'll show you with your own words:
The number of kills of the Fw190A5 was 8383 and the Chog's 8320 or so.
Hmmm looks to me like the A5 was more popular than the F4U-1C to me... musta been that whole thing where the A5 was the best zoomer or something....
Just FYI, during 1.03, the P47D-30 got some 7300kills. The N1K2 5653, and the P51D 5259. The P38L got some 4070.
Useless trivial information....
Oh, almost forgot. The Spitfire IX was teh most used plane that TOD. 9763 kills
OH GEEZ!!! We've hit the jackpot with this one.. or the crack pot.. guess it depends who you're talking to. Now lets see... the F4U-1C wasn't as popular as the SpitIX that tour. The F4U-1C wasn't killed as much as the SpitIX or the 190A5 that tour either. So by simple mathematics we can see that during that tour the most popular plane was the SpitIX, followed by the 190A5, and lastly by the F4U-1C. Hmmm amazing, this was back when energy burnt away real quick.
So, please SW, can you tell me...
What happened in 1.03 with the Fw190A5, again?
Why do I feel like I'm teaching a blind man how to juggle?
The 190A5 was by far more popular in 1.03 than it is now.
Tour 15:
The fw190A-5 has 1748 kills and has been killed 1206 times.
Lets take a look at the SpitIX stats:
Tour15:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 8779 kills and has been killed 9363 times.
More people flying it and dying in it.
Lets see the other top dogs of the arena:
Tour 15:
The N1K2 has 9525 kills and has been killed 9445 times.
The F4U-1C has 20898 kills and has been killed 14795 times.
The 1.04 FM allowed for less energy burn, and thus a rise in popularity of the planes that can turn n burn.
You're right about one thing, everyone that flies the F4U-1C probably won't all go to the same plane...
Instead it's going to be a number of planes we already see plenty of. N1K2 and SpitIX.
Personally I'd rather see a sky full of F4U-1Cs than N1K2s and SpitIXs.
I guess you'd rather squeak and complain about those planes too RAM... oh wait you already do!
Hmmm I guess you're just looking for a reason to squeak louder, longer, and more obnoxiously about them then?
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
You're going by number of kills again RAM, boy that's the biggest mistake.
But even then you still can't add or subtract or maybe you just have a hormonal imbalance (which would lead to your excessive squeakyness)... so here I'll show you with your own words:
See, another difference between you and I, apart of the future teller thing is that I dont resort to personal insults each time someone tries to argue with me. You do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hmmm looks to me like the A5 was more popular than the F4U-1C to me... musta been that whole thing where the A5 was the best zoomer or something....
LOL! ok, if you say that a 0.7% difference in usage makes one plane "more popular" than other..ok, then. It was more popular. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW and Just FYI, Tour 5 and Tour 7 (both 1.03) saw a Chog with 1000 more kills each than the Fw190A5. I thought you would like to know it <G>
Useless trivial information....
No, sir, that information says that the gap between most used planes and their immediate followers was ranging on some 1000-3000 kills or so.
This tour the Chog has got 11000 kills more than the N1K2, its most immediate follower.
Trivial information? I dont think so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
OH GEEZ!!! We've hit the jackpot with this one.. or the crack pot.. guess it depends who you're talking to. Now lets see... the F4U-1C wasn't as popular as the SpitIX that tour. The F4U-1C wasn't killed as much as the SpitIX or the 190A5 that tour either. So by simple mathematics we can see that during that tour the most popular plane was the SpitIX, followed by the 190A5, and lastly by the F4U-1C. Hmmm amazing, this was back when energy burnt away real quick.
First, I did that assesment to make you notice that your so-much-vaunted 1.03's Fw190A5 was NEVER the most used plane in the Main Arena...but maybe you missed my point <G>
Second, and Again, in Tours 5 and 7 the Fw190A5 got more than 1000 kills less than the Chog...to paraphrase you...Hmmm amazing, this was back when energy burnt away real quick <ironic grin>
Why do I feel like I'm teaching a blind man how to juggle?
The 190A5 was by far more popular in 1.03 than it is now.
Tour 15:
The fw190A-5 has 1748 kills and has been killed 1206 times.
Lets take a look at the SpitIX stats:
Tour15:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 8779 kills and has been killed 9363 times.
More people flying it and dying in it.
Lets see the other top dogs of the arena:
Tour 15:
The N1K2 has 9525 kills and has been killed 9445 times.
The F4U-1C has 20898 kills and has been killed 14795 times.
The 1.04 FM allowed for less energy burn, and thus a rise in popularity of the planes that can turn n burn.
You're right about one thing, everyone that flies the F4U-1C probably won't all go to the same plane...
Instead it's going to be a number of planes we already see plenty of. N1K2 and SpitIX.
Personally I'd rather see a sky full of F4U-1Cs than N1K2s and SpitIXs.
from all that personal insults, and words I extract the conclussion that you say that the Chog is more used now because it can turn better, and that is the reason why the Fw190A5 is not so used now. I dont understand WTF has to do this with the fact that the Chog has got 21000kills in this same moments...but I will quote you in a previous post in this same thread:
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
it's definitely not the best turner(at a stall speeds I can hold a 190A5 on a F4U-1C's tail even with his flaps down), and it definitely doesn't zoom very well either.
Following this (Brilliant) line of argument, the Fw190A5 should be way more used than the Chog on the MA...or not?...<G,D,R>
I guess you'd rather squeak and complain about those planes too RAM... oh wait you already do!
Hmmm I guess you're just looking for a reason to squeak louder, longer, and more obnoxiously about them then?
-SW
The fun thing is that the only one squeaking in this thread is you ,Seawulfe. Worse, you squeak at other's cost resorting to personal attacks each two posts.
I thought way better of you,dude. But maybe is because I am as idiot as you claim I am (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-23-2001).]
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5 post and i'm a squeaker?
Ya'll better watch, 'cause chog will rule forever (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
blutic
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LOLOL at all this. Man this sim has ALOT of aces in it. those new guys who aren't as good must learn to fight like we're told to. Damn I missed that in the sign up. NO TURN FIGHTING ALLOWED! Therefore no N1k's or Spits. NO HO'ing allowed and being a crappy pilot that needs to rely on a plane to do the work. If you cant E Fight or are not an ACE stay out of our sim. You must NO ALL and be able to DO ALL from day 1.
Guess I may has well stay in a goon..Cant turn..Has no guns..and is famous for finding a fight with a 109 or 190 or 51 or F4UD/D or whatever. But , If for some reason that pilot may crash trying to kill me whil I be 50ft off the deck...we'll get a "BAN THE LOW FLYING GOON" ROFLMAO....
Pilot error doesnt exist...only lucky shots.
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The Sneak hence "Jackal"
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Whatever RAM, you keep trying to turn my words to better help your argument.
The F4U-1C is popular right now because it has 4 cannons and can fly off both CV and airfields.
If the N1K2 or SpitIX could do the same thing, THEY would see the most usage.
But removing it or perking it doesn't fix the issue, as I've said all along. The people flying the F4U-1C and using it to a great extent will just move over to the next plane they view as a competent fighter and something they can fly well. SpitIX, N1K2, hell, maybe even the Typhoon.
Either way you slice through this roadkill, you'll arrive at the same conclusion: People don't like the plane because it kills them too much.
Atleast if you are going to squeak about something and try to act as if you only have one concern, maybe you could actually post this "one concern" instead of 4 or 5 different ones.
You remember those "uber-lazer gun chogs" complaints RAM? Now was that pertaining to the NUMBER of uber lazer gun chogs in the air? Or the NUMBER of uber lazer guns? Or is it just the quad Hispanos?
It DEFINITELY can NOT be the NUMBER of "chogs" in the air this tour RAM... hell man lets just look and see how good ol' Asts is doing:
Tour 15:
Asts has 6 kills and has been killed 7 times against the F4U-1C.
Asts has 5 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Asts has 10 kills and has been killed 2 times against the A6M5b.
Is it the fact that the F4U-1C killed you 7 times that you feel there are too many? Cuz I see you got 10 kills while only killed twice against the Zero. PERK THE ZERO!!!!!!
It isn't because the F4U-1C has a lot of kills that has you upset RAM, it's the fact that so many people fly it. You want them to fly your way, you want them diversified across the planeset. But then when that next plane comes along that tears you a new one... the BBS will be filled with your tears. Then all I gotta do is dig up this thread!
Fine, go ahead... perk the F4U-1C. You are ignorant to the issue now, your eyes will be wide open when you've got an arena full of Seafires or SpitIXs or N1K2s to contend with.
-SW
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First of all, congratulations. you are not only a great future teller, you are also a magnificent mind-reader. Wow, you know my motivations better than me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Asts has 6 kills and has been killed 7 times against the F4U-1C.
Asts has 5 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Asts has 10 kills and has been killed 2 times against the A6M5b.
Yup. I will give you some more data.
I've been killed two times in A6M5 by a CHog. I've been killed one time in a 109F4, one in a Fw190A5 and three in the Fw190D9.
The ones in the D9 and A5 cant tell ya,because I dont recall them. The ones in the Zero and 109F4 were because I wanted to do some weird fast fighting over a capped base..with the evident results (ask Stsanta and Kirin, they were on RW while I was being vulched (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). So, as you see, 3 of those kills were vulches...so,now, 6-4 doesnt seem as bad as 6-7, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But frankly, and I'm sincere, I can't recall the last time a Chog killed me in pure A2A combat. I do recall when one killed my F8's engine wiht a single ping in a frontal pass, but I ditched that one.
Think whatever you want, SW. I'm not here to argue with you, nor with anyone else. I started this thread with a simple idea: for the time this TOD ends the Chog will have 26000-27000 kills, and that is IMO too much.
You, and others, keep insisting that it is not that great, it is not that bad, it is better for this, it is worse for that. Fine.
I came here with numbers wich show that the second of the list has got 45% of the kills than the first on the list. 21000 kills is the number of kills the Chog has got by today. And again,IMHO, that is too much.
On the other hand, I didnt start this thread to argue with anyone. My fault I've left myself be caught in this little debate we've had (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-23-2001).]
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Yes RAM, I don't think anyone will disagree with you that the F4U-1C is by far the most used.
So why did you start this thread? To get it perked? I'm not sure what the whole point of this thread IS in the first place, but it was turned into the usual "perk something... we need a point to this thread!"
Oh but HERE we see the point of the thread:
With all due sincerity,and IMHO, I simply dont understand what is HTC waiting for to perk it.
You may not want to argue with someone, but you sure started it.
RAM, which point of "The masses will go to the next available killing machine" can't you understand? You actually think because the F4U-1C is gone that people will say "Hmmm what should I fly now? HEY! There's a Macchi C.202 in this game!"???
What do you really want RAM? You want the F4U-1C perked. So lets say for Tour 16 that thing is perked. Towards the end of Tour 16 you might as well start copying the threads you've already written complaining about the F4U-1C, repost them replacing the F4U-1C (or Chog as you call it) with N1K2 or SpitIX.
You think you are right RAM, otherwise you wouldn't constantly remark that I "can see the future."
Funny thing: Hitler could of invaded Russia if he'd studied history. (hint: Napolean)
-SW
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"It's not invincible, it's not the easiest to fly, if you are competent- it's an easy kill, it doesn't snap roll like a 190(can we say scissors???), it's definitely not the best turner(at a stall speeds I can hold a 190A5 on a F4U-1C's tail even with his flaps down), and it definitely doesn't zoom very well either."
So, by this same logic, we should all be asking for the dhog to be perked along with the c-hog?
Gee, I mean, how could it POSSIBLY be that 2 almost equal AC be so, so ,so different? Must be the paintjob..yes that must be it, the c-hog's paint is what makes the difference! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
"But removing it or perking it doesn't fix the issue, as I've said all along. The people flying the F4U-1C and using it to a great extent will just move over to the next plane they view as a competent fighter and something they can fly well. SpitIX, N1K2, hell, maybe even the Typhoon. "
N1k is part of this discussion, so we can skip it. SpitIX has its limitations (speed, ammo load) Typhoon has low ammo and cannot spray, it is also too fast for those who are not familiar with it.
"Either way you slice through this roadkill, you'll arrive at the same conclusion: People don't like the plane because it kills them too much."
Which is caused by what pray tell? Too many of them around? Maybe 1 ping kill capability? Or could it be by an FM that rivals an f16?
Oh yah, hate it when they kill me without even applying the most basic acm into their kills or stall and spray, a classic death flower manouver.
"You remember those "uber-lazer gun chogs" complaints RAM? Now was that pertaining to the NUMBER of uber lazer gun chogs in the air? Or the NUMBER of uber lazer guns? Or is it just the quad Hispanos"
All the above.
Go in the MA and count how many chogs you see in 10 sorties. Then count how many 109's. How many 205's. How many P-38's?
Chog:else ratio is quite high. N1k:else ratio is second to it. But then again, according to you its all just a whine *shrug*
By sheer # of kills the chog should be at least a cheap perk. By the sheer firepower (which I have an incredibly hard time believing its damage potential) it should be perked.
Its all in the guns. Trust the hispano luke...
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Hog points thats the ticket! You kill a chog you get points towards the purchase of your very own chog. You loose it you loose the points. A screen shot of the text buffer with someone you just killed using HO or cannon dweeb gets you bonus hog points. That would cut down on the whineing.
BTW black sheep sqadron is on the history chnl now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tac, I would get into it with you too... but I have a hard enough time repeating myself to RAM.
I have yet to be shot down by a F4U-1C when I'm doing evasives or consciously evading one.
Tac, F16 flight model? I suggest you fly one just for a flight offline so you can actually figure out that it's the same as the F4U-1D.
Of course you don't have to take it from me.
You know, it's always the same old scratched CD playing by the same old band and it's getting really repetitive!
I mine as well give up... you guys have been whining since before the F4U-1C was extremely popular and it still hasn't been removed or perked.
You really don't take a hint too well, huh?
-SW
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AKSeaWulfe,
I'll leave you with this from Tour 14:
Karnak has 11 kills and has been killed 5 times against the F4U-1C.
Sometimes I do better and sometimes I do worse.
I'm done with F4U-1C discussions. HTC will do what they will do.
<S> All.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Aahhhhhhh SW dont make it difficult to me...
I will asnwer you to one, just one thing, and then leave it for hopeless (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
RAM, which point of "The masses will go to the next available killing machine" can't you understand? You actually think because the F4U-1C is gone that people will say "Hmmm what should I fly now? HEY! There's a Macchi C.202 in this game!"???
SW; so now the reason not to stop the massive usage of a single plane by perking it is because the crowd...will move to another? lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW If you took the time to actually read my posts you would find that I've already asnwered to that. Some of the guys will change to the Dhog. Some of the guys will go to the N1K2 or the Spit. Some of the guys will move to the Typhoon. ANd some of them will even fly the P47 or the Fw190A8.
One thing is a plane wich is very used. Other is a plane wich ammounts for such a monstrosuous percentage of the total arena kills, and wich has almost 11000 kills more than the second in the run.
In short, I will answer your question with another:
SW, which point of "the perk system is a way to prevent determinate planes to dominate the arena" dont you understand?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You're wrong RAM. Of course I've only seen it 3 times before in other games... this one WILL be different! When the F4U-1C is no longer available where do you think they'll go? SpitIX, N1K2, F4U-1D, Seafire MkII... MAYBE the F6F, but that has such a sharp stall I doubt it. If you think the arena will be better because of this, you are mistaken.
I've only seen it happen before on 3 seperate occasions... but I'm so definitely positive that this time they'll evenly distribute among our current planes! (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/cwm/cwm/uhoh3.gif)
-SW
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Once again, nice smilie
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)