Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: bozon on May 09, 2002, 11:57:28 PM
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flew in the CT yesterday, and since LW were badly out numbered, I was "forced" to take some BMW instead of a good trusty jug.
turned out to be an interesting experience to fly the 109G2 and a little G6. it is a capable fighter and even turns suprisingly well, only I wish for some 0.5 on it instead of that terrible nose gun.
after the good impression of the 109, the question:
usually, later models of WWII planes are faster and turn worse the the early ones. in the case of the G6 it seems to be slower, worse tuner and worse climber than the G2...
checked HTC graphs - the same conclusion.
so where is the tradeoff? does the G6 has some advantage over the G2 I am missing (besides the loadout options)?
Bozon
p.s.
If you know the secret of how to kill anything with 109 nose gun, please tell me, I'd like to learn.
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I'm not an expert on 109s, far from it, but I've flown them in scenarios and in the CT a little. I think the secret to killing with a LW gun is to get in close, then get in even closer, even then you're not really close enough... The LW cannons have a tremendous amount of bullet drop and so have a completely different trajectory to the 0.5s you're used to and even the cowl mgs so my advice is to hold fire until 300 yds (as a maximum!) and only use one gun type at a time.
As to why the performance difference between marques, I don't know the answer. Is the climb rate better?
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Originally posted by bozon
flew in the CT yesterday, and since LW were badly out numbered, I was "forced" to take some BMW instead of a good trusty jug.
turned out to be an interesting experience to fly the 109G2 and a little G6. it is a capable fighter and even turns suprisingly well, only I wish for some 0.5 on it instead of that terrible nose gun.
after the good impression of the 109, the question:
usually, later models of WWII planes are faster and turn worse the the early ones. in the case of the G6 it seems to be slower, worse tuner and worse climber than the G2...
checked HTC graphs - the same conclusion.
so where is the tradeoff? does the G6 has some advantage over the G2 I am missing (besides the loadout options)?
Bozon
p.s.
If you know the secret of how to kill anything with 109 nose gun, please tell me, I'd like to learn.
First things first. Yes, the 109 does turn well. In fact, it turns 'surprisingly' well for a lot of its opponents. In so far as rating the turning of the 109 series- the G6 is the worst, G10 next, then G2, then F4, and the E4 is the best turner of the lot. The 109G10 handles a lot like a P-51D that accelerates and climbs like a scalded cat- except it feels more nimble to me (but that may be because I'm used the 109 and not the P-51). The E4 handles a lot like a crippled Spitfire (i.e. it is slow, but it turns well. Not as well as any Spitfire though, but close to the IX.)
In between is where it gets really interesting. At least in my opinion.
As far as the G6 vs. G2, the G2 is faster, turns better, and accelerates better. The G6 has twin 12.7mm instead of the 7.92mm in the nose of the G2, and it also has the option of packing a great big 30mm tater-gun, instead of the standard 20mm. The G-6 is really only a viable aircraft if the G-10 is not available (because the G-10 is faster and turns better as well)- when the extra firepower over the G2 may make up for some sacrificed manueverability.
As far as the "why" goes, I believe the G-6 was a bit heavier than the G-2 (because of the 12.7mm MGs), without a corresponding increase in horsepower. Although the G-10 retained all the changes made to the G-6, it also has a bunch more horsepower to make up for the added weight (and it weighs more than the G-6 does as well, heavier engine).
Oh, and as far as hitting things with the guns go- it is pretty much point and shoot. You just have to be a little bit closer to get reliable hits. The good news is you don't have to worry about convergence (unless you go with the gondolas, which I rarely do nowadays).
Hope that helps.
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Urchin summed it up quite nicely, but to add my little piece of 'snake feet'( :D Asian metaphor meaning 'needless additional info' ):
If I remember correctly, the G series of the 109s are one of the most complicated series with vast line of modifications and customization. Of those, our 109G-6 is the most 'standard' factory type introduced in early 1943. It is the heaviest of all 109s, and as Urchin said, increase of weight was due to heavier armament of MG131 7.92mm guns. I'm not sure if there were any additional changes such as increased armour, but one thing for certain, the MG131s had some problems when it was fitted into the cowl. The protruding bulges or 'warts' had negative effect on aerodynamics.
One of the positive changes were the increase in visibility via introduction of the Erla Haube(canopies with less frames) and Galland Hood(transparent armoured glass behind the pilot's head), but this factor is not very prominent in AH since the rear view is very lenient anyway.
The result, as Urchin said, with limited power + added weight + aerodynamic problems is our G-6. Slower than a G-2, top speed is almost the same as the 109F-4 around 387~390mph (introduced in 1941). The G-6 maneuvers the worst of all 109s, but like other 109s it is very forgiving and unbelievably stable even at low speeds with a gentle stall.
One very positive factor for the G-6 is the G6/U8 type armament with the MK108 30mm nose gun. One hit knocks an enemy plane dead with almost 99% probability. Of all my fights with MK108s, I have only seen two cases where the enemy survived a hit. (One was a 650 yard lucky hit on a La-7 which knocked out it's flap, and the other was on a P-38 at 260 yards where it lost it's left engine only)
Now, the G-2 maybe agile and more capable a pure 'dogfighter', but since it won't be able to slug it out with planes like Spitfires anyway no matter how agile it is, anyone flying 109G series would probably be subjected to strict Energy tactic principles. And if that is the case, provided one's gunnery is above average, flying the G-6 which can destroy the target at a single pass might even be a better choice.
Making a real critical hit on a single pass with the G-2 is harder and it prolongs the fight where often even mere 30 seconds can determine the outcome. I've had a lot of cases where I up a G-2, fight the enemy to the bone, land a few hits but had to extend away because the fight was taking too long and enemy reinforcements arrived. With the MK108, a rotte of two G-6s can be even more deadly than two G-2s.
I've had some lessons with Frenchy some months back, when I couldn't seem to find anyway to fight P-51Bs with alt advantage in a 109G-6 at the Combat Theatre. Frenchy kindly took up a 109G-6, and I upped a P-51B and he showed me a few pointers in fighting against Allied(especially USAAF) planes.
Fortunately I have those films, and I can e-mail it to you if you are interested, bozon. I asked Frenchy a lot of questions that time and all of those questions are recorded in the film too :)
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many thx for the usefull replys Urchin & Kweassa :cool:
I'd love to see those films!
Frenchy vs Borete (jug vs 109) film is the one that really helped me with the jug, when I started a few month back. So there must be a thing or two I can learn from him about the 109 as well :)
thx to Frenchy too :)
Bozon
bozon@332viking.com
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I've had some lessons with Frenchy some months back, when I couldn't seem to find anyway to fight P-51Bs with alt advantage in a 109G-6 at the Combat Theatre. Frenchy kindly took up a 109G-6, and I upped a P-51B and he showed me a few pointers in fighting against Allied(especially USAAF) planes.
Fortunately I have those films, and I can e-mail it to you if you are interested, bozon. I asked Frenchy a lot of questions that time and all of those questions are recorded in the film too
Please email me the films as well! Jmoews1@rap.midco.net
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g6 will outturn g10
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g6 Normal loaded weight: 6940 lbs.
g2 Normal loaded weight: 6834 lbs.
g6
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/109g6speed.gif)
g2
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/109g2speed.gif)
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Hi Guys, great stuff on the German Steel! I am just learning to fly them, would it be possible to see th films as well? I like the g2 and f4 at the moment but still very early days!
Email addy is jon@bspartnership.co.uk
Thanks!
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Originally posted by Urchin
The G6 has twin 12.7mm instead of the 7.92mm in the nose of the G2, and it also has the option of packing a great big 30mm tater-gun, instead of the standard 20mm.
Sadly, this is no longer true. We lost the tater gun in the last 109 patch. Now you fly it with the option of one 20mm and two 12.7s, or one 20mm and two 12.7s.
In AvA we've flown the G6 quite a lot because, of course, that's what the Germans flew quite a lot. It always seemed a bit trickier to me than the G2, but once mastered it's a very nice ride, and I prefer it to the G2, just because I'm familiar with it and because the heavier machine guns do make a difference. Use the flaps, try to do your turns in the vertical (up or down, depending on your speed) as much as possible, keep your feet working on the rudder.
- oldman
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the g6 is a nice ride, but the g2 does everything better.
the key to the german planes is experience and practise really. just fly and die in them a lot, and you'll get the hang of them. and as said with the guns, get in close. erich hartmann said that; once he fills the entire windscreen, you can't possibly miss.
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wpw this post is 4 years old hehehehe:lol
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
wpw this post is 4 years old hehehehe:lol
yeah lol.
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
wpw this post is 4 years old hehehehe:lol
Imagine, someone using the search function :D
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Imagine, I was a noob 4 years ago.
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and still am.
:D
Bozon
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search function, damn man what's that? I just found it by chance on some nerdy website!
Need alot of advice on flying the g2 as I am just about fed up getting shot down in it! I know it is a real man's plane but it makes we want to cry like a girl at the moment!
Also how on earth do you hit anything in it? I had just about everyone in my crosshairs yesterday then managed to miss and got killed in the reversal or overshoot!
Bozon, dont you mean you had a life four years ago *s*! Just think four years ago pf was still in nappies :p !
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Hitting things in it is a pain in the butt and I'd be willing to bet most of your kills will come from knocking off tailfins. At least that's your only realistic chance of getting a kill on one burst.
I can't comment much on the plane right now as apparently it's changed a bit since I've been around, but I will say it was always my favorite German bird.
BTW, nice avatar. That guy is funny as hell.
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Thank you - glad to hear that alan partridge has made it to your happy shores!
I take it you no longer play ah or am I just reading too much into what you say?
From your pic the p38 was your bird? Have tried that but just seems soo big to try and avoid being hit!
With both the 109 and p38 I have a real problem with compression! Apart from not diving like a stone is there a way you used to control your descent? This may be part of a bigger problem for me as I always seem keen to take the fight down low and I know these birds like to fight with a bit of alt?
Oh yes and pf I dont know about erich hartmann but I can miss anything at the moment!
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Originally posted by tallyho1
Thank you - glad to hear that alan partridge has made it to your happy shores!
I take it you no longer play ah or am I just reading too much into what you say?
From your pic the p38 was your bird? Have tried that but just seems soo big to try and avoid being hit!
With both the 109 and p38 I have a real problem with compression! Apart from not diving like a stone is there a way you used to control your descent? This may be part of a bigger problem for me as I always seem keen to take the fight down low and I know these birds like to fight with a bit of alt?
Oh yes and pf I dont know about erich hartmann but I can miss anything at the moment!
Yeah he's on BBC America but have no idea what night, I was introduced to the show when I went to Britain - gotta love how the gas station attendent's his best friend lol.
I'm in a 38 squad, so I fly it often, but really I'm more partial to a good ol' F4U Corsair. I used to be in a German squad though, and have some experience in the 109.
As far as the compression in both birds go, cutting throttle and riding the rudder in (too bleed speed) works well. You can also try adjusting trim in the 38 (forget the key command, think it's "i") manually to get that nose up. That would probably work in the 109 too, but I can't be positive, as to be honest with you, I'm usually lower or equal to everyone else's alt and haven't really had to worry about it much.
And I would be flying still but I had some technical issues where my screen would lock up for a few seconds - very aggravating at guns solution. The machine's in the shop at the moment (well, for the month) but I'll be phoning the guy and asking what the heck is going on next week, and hopefully be back and flying soon. Once I am I'd be happy to mess around in the TA or DA with you (practice makes perfect) but don't expect any great insight from me or even a challenge, I'll be rusty as hell :)
I'm sure someone else from this forum would be willing to go in much earlier. If they don't volunteer after this just ask in a new topic.
Anyway, heading off for the Lake for the weekend in a few hours, so good luck and have fun!
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get in close. erich hartmann said that; once he fills the entire windscreen, you can't possibly miss.
I knew my charm would rub off on you Poo.
IMHO the G-2 is really the G-10, it will outclimb just about anything including the Ki-84.The key to killing with it is:
1.Do not use gondola's.
2.Fire very up close and personal (flying through debree range)
3.If you are blacking out while fighting in the 109 then you are turning way too hard.After 450+MPH you must switch too manual trim too steer 109.In that same sense flying with manual trim is how you keep the 109 alive and in one piece.
4.Make smart decisions in the 109, do not let 5-K spits sucker you down from the high alt perch the 109 needs to kill.
5.Hardeck:set a hardeck for each flight 10-K, 8-K, etc. and do not go below that for the entire flight no matter what tempting target is below you the 109 and any plane for that matter fly's better in the thin air.
6.Practice off-line(or the TA) at shooting one cannon round at a time.When in the G-14, or the K i shoot only 1 cannon round per pass.The other day in the MA while on a bomber hunt in my k i got 7 kills and had 54- 30mm cannon rounds left, but i got greedy and went down to help out a stranger in trouble.none the less it can be done.
7.While attacking bombers in a 109 that only has a 20mm cannon in the nose, you must always go for the frontal attack.2-20mm rounds in the cockpit of a B-24, or B-17 usually does the job.
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Tallyho, pick a range of about 350 or closer. I'd suggest 250 or 300. Set your convergence to that. Move into range and shoot at that range. If you set your convergence to 650 and then try firing at a small target at 325 distance, there's a chance your rounds are passing OVER the target on the way to where they need to land at 650. But then you probably already know that.
In general the mg151 is decent but you only have 1 of them. That means (usually) outflying your opponent and getting the rear-aspect kill shot.
Gondolas really do hurt the performance, but I'd say if you're having trouble with snapshots -- take them. If you're flying in a manner that requires more firepower and less manuverability, then that's what you need. If, rather, you want more agility and think you can pull off kills with less ammo, leave the gondolas behind.
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I pick 109g2 no gondies and set ur convergance to 375,fire only if ur in tight with the con.
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thanks guys will do!
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was playing last night and somone on my country channel had a great idea for firing the tater gun, sorry I'm not sure who it was... but they were saying they bring there convergance all the way in with the spud gun on the 109's that way they only have to compensate in 1 direction for distance. I have been playing around offline while at work and it works ALLOT better for me anyways, set that tater gun to 0 and give it a shot
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ok will try that thanks! Here's to hitting something with those spuds!