Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ogun on May 10, 2002, 03:11:18 PM
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Widewing has a post about "a common sense scoring system," that goes much into detail about the current AH scoring system, but my intention is to see if we can come to some kind of agreement on the rules of engagement (not that there are any; you wanna steal kills you will)
Ok, I've done no rehearsal here just going to put it out there.
How would one tell the difference between a countryman chasing down an enemy to kill it (along with five others) with the pure intent of racking up a kill from the other guys' labor vs. somebody who just wanted to help make sure the enemy was dead?
I have become very careful in this area and it's actually starting to hurt me.
Ex. I see a countryman get a few pings on some nme fiter and that fiter starts smoking and I go ahead and keep my distance as to avoid interfering with his kill. Next thing I know, smoking fiter is on my six pinging me. I hate this situation; it has become so difficult.
What would you do?
Currently, my only exception is bombers. I don't care how much they are smoking or how many countrymen are on them, I join if I feel that one of my country's targets is at risk. I will endure any cursing for steal killing as long as I know the bomber is dead.
But fiters seems so much more tricky. Advice? Can we come to some agreement on what the perception will be in the ma? I will clarify anything that's cloudy here.
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There is a better idea. Check a thread named "My policy on check-6 calls" or something like that.
Basically the idea is that anyone stealing a kill that you feel was yours must be punished.
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As long as it (enemy plane) is flying it is fair game.
If someone shot it and it is flopping/spiraling downwards, it isn't.
Pretty easy :)
Broes
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Once fatal damage is done, the kill should be scored then, NOT wait til it hits ground or pilot ejects.
That would solve the whole problem
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agree with broes... but... even then, I have shot at a plane that I thought was flying fine but as I lit it up I seen it had no tailfeathers...
Main thing is... the way kills are awarded right now is the best comprimise. Some people will allways "steal" kills out of mistaken identity, desperation, over reacting or just plain selfishness.... we can't stop that. What we got works pretty well.
with my up to 50% assists and my squaddies cruel and insensitive policy of "steal lazs's kills at all costs" ..... I wouldn't mind seeing say.... 1/3 kill awarded for a sist.
lazs
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Yeah, like Broes said. Additionally, if you see the plane is fluttering toward the ground and need to see something blow up, just circle and wait for him to bail. This way, you may even get to see the pilot blow up twice - Once in front of your windscreen as you strafe his chute, and then once more on the text buffer! :D
SOB
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And there are 4000 AH players out there that don't read this board so its not like an agreement here will mean anything.
I just use my best judgement as to whether or not a friendly needs help. If somebody comes to help me when I don't really need it: That's cool. It's much better than not getting help when I do need it.
Hooligan
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Just shrug it off, do you really care that some yahoo shot at your kill? Is it worth the enrgy you will spend getting upset? happens to me all the time, i just go shoot down more.
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I try not to 'steal kills.' But what you saw and what I saw are two different things. In additon to that, there's what actually happened......
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I'll shoot at anything that stands a chance of landing.
Botabing;
It won't work.
Imagine that you spawn on the runway, start your engine and then I vulch your wing off. Should I get a kill for this? You are not wounded, sitting on your own runway in a busted plane, ready to end the "flight", yet your death (or my kill) has already been awarded to me....? Now THAT would really suck!
A kill should only be awarded when a pilot: dies, bails or is captured. As it is now.
eskimo
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It won't work.
Imagine that you spawn on the runway, start your engine and then I vulch your wing off. Should I get a kill for this? You are not wounded, sitting on your own runway in a busted plane, ready to end the "flight", yet your death (or my kill) has already been awarded to me....? Now THAT would really suck!
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If a feild is at the point where if you up, you will be vulched, then why up? What good will upping 1 plane against 10+ enemy's fighters do? They have the E Advantage, Alt advantage, and every other advantage there is. Sure, if you kill the goon, you will save the field....for another 3 mins at least...:rolleyes:
BotaBing's idea is a good idea
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Unless its blowing serious smoke and diving earthward its fair freakin game. I have flown by too many fluttering enemy only to find out the guy is jinking like a (.....my metophor muscle is sore...) jinky thing.
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It doesn't matter so much to me about getting a kill. I fly BnZ pretty much exclusively and rarely get my F4U below 300, which doesn't leave a lot of time on target. If I haven't killed him in my first pass and am in a crowded area, I'll convert back into alt and leave the wounded plane to his own devices.
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IMO, if it's an enemy and it's still airborne it's totally fair game.
I personally have never yelled at anybody for "kill stealing". If you're good (not implying that I am) the enemy won't last long and you'll get the kill anyway.
I have been reluctant at times to dive in and "help" somebody so I loiter above waiting/watching the dogfight when the tables quickly turn and the guy I was letting get the kill is shot down. About this time I usually get a message asking if I paid for those excellent seats and why the hell didn't I help out...
Phewy on that.
This isn't a Kung Foo movie where 100 bad guys wait their turn to attack Bruce Lee and when they finally get their turn they are beaten badly. Air combat is not a fair fight. If it ain't friendly and it's still flying, shoot it down, I don't care who you are, kill it!
Kuben
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well.... that doesn't seem like a very fun way to fly an F4U.
lazs
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^
...ahhhhh, but it's fun for me. I'm a reformed WB Spit dweeb. :)
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I dont want to offend someone but... man this IS A GAME! Kill stealing could (should) be only annoying for people which are not so "good", which rarely get a kill but for those with better skills, dont bother, let the others get their assist or their kill. Tell them that this is not a good manner but PLEASE dont "whine" about this. IMHO if I read threads about kill stealing they are posted from pilots with lets say reasonable good experience. I'm not a good pilot but I would NEVER post a thread about kill stealing. Why? Cause I think (and again I DONT WANT TO OFFEND SOMEONE - dont know how to express it better in english) its silly. You'll never get an agreement particularly with the 2 weeks trial pilots.
So fly, have fun and enlighten the others which have a bad habbit.:)
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lemme say this
Me and a squaddie were winging and i killed a 51 a 50 cal Navy squad guy swooped and blew him up at 200 feet off the deck. My squaddie gets an la7 and this same guy does the same the thing.
I pm him and ask him whats up.
Then catch hell from the rest of his well documented squad of kill stealers.
Its all fine and good when it happens by mistake or if two or more guys are chasing a con and in the heat of it all a dead plane gets blown up by someone in the pack.
But the thing that set Joe off in his "check 6" thread is when the guy is in flames in a death spiral and some spray and pray blue bird pilot "steals" it. Thats all I see who does it.
It aint about "score" or the kill buffer. Its about dont fek with me I dont fek with you.
Interestingly enough one those killstealers in the "check 6" thread was the squaddie of the guy in the instant I stated above.
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Well said wotan
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Wotan - didn't they disable kill stealing like you describe in the last patch?
I could be totally off my rocker here but someone mentioned it to me, I didn't believe it so I did a little test. One of my squaddies shot down a guy (I ok'd it w/ my squaddie before hand) and as the foe was falling earthbound without a wing, I swooped down and put some rounds into him. The foe had not bailed out yet but was riding the wreck down.
I didn't so much as get an assist. Nothing.
Can anybody confirm or deny whether such coding exists in that once a plane is rendered useless and heading down, it won't credit others for the kill/assist?
Kuben <-- may be off my rocker. :confused:
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Sometimes when planes are falling to the ground w/o a wing, the piolt has arleady bailed. It is just a case of lag most times, and 3-4 seconds later a parachute will appear. I dont remeber the kill awarding system being fixed/revised in any of the recent patches. ( 1.07 -> 1.09)
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theres a period of lag on your fe from when the guy bails and shows up as a "chute" or still resembles thwe plane.
If you shoot them in that transition mostly nothing happens.
No "kill stealing" as defined by targeting planes that are well dead (wing or tail gone, flaming spiral into down) has never been addressed.
Mostly because it was rare. Now every sortie I see folks chasing carcuses.
I understand new guys or heat of the moment stuff that isnt what I am talking about.
Mostly I will call um on private channel and ask. I make my point S! them and it doesnt happen again. But recently with a few particular folks they wanna get all pissy.
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Originally posted by Heinkel
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It won't work.
Imagine that you spawn on the runway, start your engine and then I vulch your wing off. Should I get a kill for this? You are not wounded, sitting on your own runway in a busted plane, ready to end the "flight", yet your death (or my kill) has already been awarded to me....? Now THAT would really suck!
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If a feild is at the point where if you up, you will be vulched, then why up? What good will upping 1 plane against 10+ enemy's fighters do? They have the E Advantage, Alt advantage, and every other advantage there is. Sure, if you kill the goon, you will save the field....for another 3 mins at least...:rolleyes:
BotaBing's idea is a good idea
Whether or not you think it's a good idea or not means little, it's still a regular part of the game. Maybe you won't up from a vulched field, but many others will. Also not all vulch/capped fields are as you describe with 10 vulchers circling overhead. I am a good vulcher, but if 2 guys both want to get up at a field that I have capped solo, they will succeed in good time. All that I can hope to do is buy a minute, or two or maybe even three, of time untill more help arrives.
Some folks are masters at upping at vulch capped fields. I have a long laundry list in my head of names of great vulch-breakers. If one or two of these guys ups at afield that I have capped, I know the gig will soon be up.
My experience has shown that more fields are "saved" by folks who up at a vulch/capped fields than are lost or captured because the vulchers maintained air superiority. It is an effective strategy in many situations.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Ogun
Widewing has a post about "a common sense scoring system," that goes much into detail about the current AH scoring system, but my intention is to see if we can come to some kind of agreement on the rules of engagement (not that there are any; you wanna steal kills you will)
Ok, I've done no rehearsal here just going to put it out there.
How would one tell the difference between a countryman chasing down an enemy to kill it (along with five others) with the pure intent of racking up a kill from the other guys' labor vs. somebody who just wanted to help make sure the enemy was dead?
I have become very careful in this area and it's actually starting to hurt me.
Ex. I see a countryman get a few pings on some nme fiter and that fiter starts smoking and I go ahead and keep my distance as to avoid interfering with his kill. Next thing I know, smoking fiter is on my six pinging me. I hate this situation; it has become so difficult.
What would you do?
Currently, my only exception is bombers. I don't care how much they are smoking or how many countrymen are on them, I join if I feel that one of my country's targets is at risk. I will endure any cursing for steal killing as long as I know the bomber is dead.
But fiters seems so much more tricky. Advice? Can we come to some agreement on what the perception will be in the ma? I will clarify anything that's cloudy here.
I generally try to keep my distance from a teammate who is saddled up, yet stay close enough to protect him as well. However, if his con should turn towards me and become a threat, then I'll do what I have to in order to protect myself.
I agree with you on the bomber issue. If your field or strat is in immediate danger, forget about kill stealing and try to knock it down.
I can't imagine that anyone would bellyache about either situation. Yet, you know that some will. Ignore them, they had their chance, you are only doing the smart thing.
My regards,
Widewing
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Wotan & Joecrip, that's probably what it is...the pilot already bailed but it hasn't displayed on my end.
Kuben
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So to sum up is the general rule that if it can fly, go after it guilt free?
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go after it guilt free?
What is "guilt"? :confused:
Just when ya think ya got all the Sim terms figured out, they throw a new one at cha. :)
It sounds like one of those terms like "HO" "Gang Bang" "Honor" or "Fair".
I like terms like "Maim", "Obliterate", "Vulch" :D
Face it, if it ain't in Shaw's "Fighter Combat" I ain't really intrested ;)
AKEagle+
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I just wish I didn't have to POP every target and know that in just taking off a wing or causing fatal damage is enough to ensure the kill. As anything more is a waste of ammo in my opinion and very frustrating.
Think I might map the "check 6" to my joystick.
...-Gixer
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I don't usually shoot planes that are obviously going down unless they are in front of my guns.
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Personaly I will jump into a fight if its 1 on 1.Not to try to gain an advantage on the kill but to make sure it dies and be able to move on to the next.If Im in a 1 on 1 feel free by all means to jump in.Who cares as long as they die.Thats the whole point. If a plane is visably dissabled ie missing a wing,I wont shoot it.I really think thats cheap but hey...it happens.
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I agree with SOB pretty much and add another suggestion to the pile.
If I can manage to kill the guy in the chute, then no matter who actually shot the plane down I should get the kill and not them.
Matter of fact the system should display a text message like this:
Your last kill was stolen from you by Mino
Blinking system text would also be a nice feature I would think.
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What I really admire is people who manage to keep their heads and talk their way through any potential misunderstandings.
Yesterday, I'm on my way back to base, when this con shows up at a nearby base, flying around unopposed, presumably having a great time. I divert, and by the time I get there, the town is smoking, and Trikky and another guy are chasing a p38 on the deck. I watch for a moment, but it looks as if the 38 is extending, so since I have a fabulous alt advantage, I opt in. I try to let Trikky know I'm above him and on my way down, except Vox suddenly stops working (as it does). I'm fighting the compression, so the last thing I'm going to do is type away.
The 38 thinks he has enough room from Trikky, starts to turn, I remove his wingtip and he flops into the ground. I'm on my radio to Trikky because now Vox starts working again (as it does). Trikky actually gets the kill, so I say something along the lines of "Well done, looks like you put enough into him" and he replies "Well, I didn't get the piece that mattered." I explained that I'd tried to vox him, and he says "Hey, I'm just glad he's dead."
Trikky, wish there were more like you in the MA.
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Kill stealing should only occur with short burst from the cannons while the pinky finger is extended. Followed by a brief dab (not wipe) of the drewl from the corner of your mouth.
For FDBs: It is impolite to pleasure one self while attempting to steal a kill or shortly therafter.
Dang... I could do a whole book on ediquette and manners while stealing kills.
AKDejaVu
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Let's just buck up a bit....for goodness sake, kill everything red everytime and be grateful you've got friendlies with you and your not 6v1.
I will shoot at everything unless it's someone I know and they are engaged 1v1(a rare happening in the MA)...I will ask if they want help before jumpin in. Anyone else, especially newbies, I'll jump right in uninvited...they should pay their dues ya know:)
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Today, I'm T'n'B in a furball, i get a 109 fly by my screen and i take a snap shot at it. 2 seconds later i get someone berating me on the range channel for attempting to steal his kill.
2 minutes after this i'm in the same furball and i've just taken half an f4's wing off and i'm following him down to make sure he's good and dead when along somes the same geezer whos just had a go at me and pumps 5000 rounds of 50 cal rubbish into the f4.
:mad:
I was not pleased. But there is not a DAMN THING you can do about it. Fatal damage is not possible to work out because it could have taken 5 friendly planes ping hits to cause it, who do you give the kill too then?? The first guy to hit with one ping or the last who actually saw the bits flying off the target.
I now have 1 policy for this, if its flying its fair game. Tough. I might leave it if i see it's got no wings at all but then again what the heck. If your not happy about it start recording films of the alleged 'Kill Steals' and start shaming the alleged 'stealer' on this board with the films.
Rant over :D
Gatso
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I dont agree at all with this I suck at this game but there is people that steal kills out there. I was about 20k and shot off vertical stabalizer from a 109 Now that plane is spining and losing control and he is going down "The rest of the guys" seen me shoot his vertical stabalizer off. Now what can that 109 do? Nothing he had it why someone has to come and try to finish him off he is goind down already.
I think they will always be lamers on this game stealing kills.
In the last month I have shot 6 vertical stabalizers at 15k to 20k and I see people fallow them until they blow them up and take my kill.
"LAME"
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I guess I don't suffer from my kills getting stolen as much as some people here... I had my share of kills getting stolen but, to me, it happens... that's about it.
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Nobody can steal your Kills.
It's up to you to evaluate your success in downing an enemy Plane.
If you take off it's wings, it's dead.
If you kill the pilot, both are dead.
If you do enough damage to prevent the enemy pilot from flying his Plane in a controlled manner, he'll have to bail in a moment or two - or both are dead.
That's common sense.
If someone else is awarded the kill, then that's the AH Scoring System.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that the AH Scoring System is better, or more accurate, than your own judgement?
Nobody can steal your kills, for you know who got the kill, even if the kill msg in the text buffer displays another name.
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Robsan.....very well put.If your not a perk farmer thats how it goes.Unfortunatly if you want credited for that blown off stabaliser your gonna have to spend some more ammo finishing it at times.Sad but true.
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WTG Robsan. Thats it!
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I have to revise my previous stance. If presented with that rare bonus occasion of someone that really flips out over trivial nonsense (like having a kill 'stolen' in a 50 plane furball), I will take full advantage of the opportunity and see if we can't get a full scale mental breakdown.
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Originally posted by Fatty
If presented with that rare bonus occasion of someone that really flips out over trivial nonsense (like having a kill 'stolen' in a 50 plane furball), I will take full advantage of the opportunity and see if we can't get a full scale mental breakdown.
And that is a good reason to be careful about your ranting. A whine actually encourages bastiges like Fatty to continue the behavior you are whining about.
It’s like those psychology experiments. If the chicken gets the food even once, he will continue to peck at the lever for a long time. (If you’re having trouble following, Fatty = chicken, whine = food, bastardly behavior = pecking.)
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I guess you guys don't see the point here. I dont care about kills or score you can check my stats "RootBeer" and see I suck. But my point is why are you going to waist ammo on a plane that is already going down? The guy is no longer effective he is going down why keep shoting him! No the plane that still flying with 1/2 a wing I can understand you inini on that guy but someone that has no tail and is spinning to earth at 250mph I call it steling kills.
And I have seen 8 guys chasing one smoking reck to the ground while there is 5 more enemy planes around. <-- Not smart.
I really don't care about who gets the kill or I will never want to be better than anybody else but hey get your own kill :).
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But my point is why are you going to waist ammo on a plane that is already going down? The guy is no longer effective he is going down why keep shoting him! No the plane that still flying with 1/2 a wing I can understand you inini on that guy but someone that has no tail and is spinning to earth at 250mph I call it steling kills.
Try not to think of them as kill stealers... instead think of them as bait.
AKDejaVu
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Im going to have to join this AK squad they have a answer for everything :). Good point " Special Anouncement " From now own you will have to cover your own six if you chase my kills down.
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Originally posted by robsan
Nobody can steal your Kills.
It's up to you to evaluate your success in downing an enemy Plane.
very well put robsan... they aren't stealing... you gave it to them ;)