Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr.ED on November 04, 1999, 07:59:00 AM
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Hey how do you slow down? I'm coming down from 20k in a pony, I cut throttle, lower RPM to rock bottom, extend flaps,and by the time I'm at 5k I'm doing 500kph in a right hand roll that I can't straighten out of.
I am a vertical fighter, it I can't seem to be able to transend more than about 2-3k at a time without goings stalls to the wall downward.
Mr.ED
Bolide
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I suffer from the same. Anxiously waiting on any words of wisdom form P51 pile-its here.
--Westy
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Well aside from the obvious (it takes time to climb and descend) you haven't stated your purpose for quick descent. I'll assume you are trying to pounce someone (hence the urgency of descent).
First, as you have already noticed, it is easy to have too much alt for a bounce. I wouldn't try to have more than 2k advantage in the pony to begin with, but if you do, you can:
1. Cross-control, that is hard rudder, opposite aileron, flip elevator up and down. The drag from the control surfaces should slow you down.
2. Kill the engine. Yup, if modeled, a windmilling engine has more drag than an idling one.
3. Drop gear and flaps.
4. Combination or all of the above.
If I had that much smash on someone I would try to set up a shallow diving run that would allow a zoom climb/extension afterwards (in case I missed). By doing this I keep my speed up and expose myself to minimal return fire.
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If you want to do the "cross control" thing (referred to as a forward slip), watch the airspeed. If you stall, you'll be snapping into one heckuva spin.
Here's what I do in RealLife (note: Archers, Cutlass'es, Skyhawks, 150's, and the vast majority of what I fly aren't fighters, but the pricipals are the same). First off, you've got your prop control in the wrong position. Put the prop full forward (full RPM) for more drag... This is because the faster a prop spins, the closer aerodynamically it becomes to a flat disk.
Second, to descend at a steeper angle (and often at a higher descent rate, but not always), SLOW DOWN. I know, it doesn't make too much sense at first, since we normally push the nose down to descend... Let me give you the extreme example and hopefully that'll help. One of the flying activities in which I engage is the National Intercollegiate Flying Association competitions. One thing we do there is land an airplane at a specific point. Obviously descent control is the key to that event. Since our power is basically set (sometimes the rules allow us to remove power, we can NEVER add it until we've landed, and half the time it's required to be at idle once you pass abeam the touchdown point), we control our descent with flaps and speed. We aren't allowed to slip for some reason. Anyway, here's how to control it. Flaps sort of differ per aircraft. We use Cessna 150's which have 40 degree settings which add a TON of drag, about like a spitfire's flaps. Anyway, if we're too high, the first thing we do is add flaps. If, after we've got full flaps in, we're still going to be high, you pull the nose up. If you go far enough (and on occasion we will), you can ride the ragged edge of a stall to the runway. Since a very small portion of the wing is stalled, you're going to get a TON of drag, and thus descend fast. (NOTE: I would not recommend anyone else do this unless you're in as forgiving an aircraft, and unless you've SERIOUSLY thought about the implications of flying so low, so close to a stall/spin).
The real answer however (when we're talking about a descent from cruise altitude), is to plan ahead. It is difficult to lose that much energy without planning. I usually plan a descent to level off 2 miles before the airport, and since I've planned ahead, I can usually descend by just reducing power. However, when I need to descend at a steeper angle than usual (such as the descent into mountain airports like Stevens Field, Durango, Eagle County...), we'll usually lower the flaps, put the gear down if we can, and slow to a few knots below best glide speed.
However, with regards to AH... my take on it is that if an aircraft is that far below you, it's probably not worth the E-loss to get him. You can safely bounce an aircraft 10K below you without compressing in the stang (that's idle power and descent angle as necessary).
There's my overly ong and drawn out 2 cents... And it all comes down to...plan for the descent. Be ahead of the airplane enough to make it a controlled descent.
blk (AT)
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What I would do in this situation is to stay clean, kill the engine, and pull G's to bleed the E off. I'd start with a pure flat turn, and transition that into a dive by rolling as I bled enough E off. As I come down on the enemy's 6, I pull some short flat turns if neccessary to keep my speed down just below 500. As soon as you get slowed down, cut the engine back in and WEP it. Make your pass, and zoom back up.
The beauty of this method is that you don't have to roll flaps and gear back up slowly to stop the drag, leading to a better zoom and more E retention.
Now if you were talking about landing from 20k, I'd pop my flaps and gear, but you still will need to use some sort high G turns to bleed the speed off if you want to dive straight down and land.
Pulling G's bleeds E.. use that and you can slow down whenever you need to.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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I dont think we have prop drag modeled in yet fellas....
Prop drag would go a hell of a long ways
to helping slow the damn thing down some...
Even coming into final I have a hell of a hard time losing speed.
Yeager
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thanks for all the replies. I'll try out all that was recomended.
Perhaps I'll succeed in not compressing and actually getting a kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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Hehe guys, drop gear, lower flaps...
When AH model will be complete you will kill yourself with that.
1. Dropping gear should be possible at high speeds. (I will love to see the guy extending gear at 300mp/h (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). In worst case he will make a nice flicflac before loosing his gear.
2. Combat Flaps could be extended, but the real flaps had limits too. (e.g. 160mp/h for P-38)
Both positions damaged should make him easy prey then due to added drag.
3. The windmilling effect of the prop is right, but on many planes there has been a glide-position for the prob for engine failures, in order to reduce drag. (Especially important for aircrafts with more than one engine)
Check 6
Werewo
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I fly the 109 and it compresses the worst of all the planes in AH. This is how I control it...it should apply to other planes as well.
In a dive, I throttle all the way back, flaps fully extended. This still takes me past 400+mph (not much and depending on height of dive) so to control the plane, I use trim:
- Using left aileron trims will pull the plane out of the right turn.
- Elevator trim will help pull out of the dive.
Anyways, I wouldn't want to drop all speed to sit on the guys tail. I usually zoom back up to my perch after the pass.
Ex.
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In my own experience beyond D4.0 (not sure what units AH uses on icons) lock up kills ur run...try turning tightly near stall to loose some alt quick and when ur in good range (D3.0 is best IMO) dive on him at full speed using trim ( i ) to steady you if ur pulling up too much, a good solution and an easy hand on stick will keep black out away (dont jerk). Fire as close as possible. If lock up is setting in abandon the run and try again, hitting x will auto trim and save you most of the time if u think u have over done it.
Hope it helps.
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Me? I never dive straight down on an enemy. I just follow them around above them and slowly descend. If he breaks hard, I pull up, look over my shoulder and descend on him again. I hardly ever expect the first pass to be the killing pass. I actually avoid trying to kill him ASAP.
I always try to maintain my altitude advantage. I hate descending to their altitude unless it is for the crucial guns pass where I have him where he cannot get away. I stay above them and toy with them like a cat till he makes a mistake and nail him.
Of course this takes alot of time and another enemy can appear...this time above you. Thats the major downside of my tactics.
Hans.
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Hans...
I know what you mean (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...My shooting sucks so by the time I get in a good position to fire, there's plenty-o-enemy around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)..I luv fighting from alt disadvantage though - it's more fun...just don't like the many-to-one fights in that situation.
I think a lot of guys know they have to stay high to stay alive, but not many know how to use it to their adv.
If there's anyone who can turn your adv against ya, it's Garner...I learn something everytime I attack him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...
Ex
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Thanks Boys,
I thought this was entirely stupid question at first. Coming from AW3, where all you have to do is chop throttle & dive, this modeling is more on the money.
I talked to a 51 driver yesterday, who said I was diving outside of the flight envolope. Split-S or "E" burning loops were his answer. Then he said "what is the URL of this sim?"
The reason for this is that yesterday I chased a FF (flying Fortress) to 30k and back down to the deck. Dang big bird dove better than the pony I was in. Next flight I dove & hovered over the ack trying to get a 109 to come out and play.
It seems to me that a few of Bishops dive for ack if a pony shows up above them, so I'm constantly diving 10=15k to chase them down. I had 3 flights yesterday, and dead sticked in all 3 with ack holes in my fuel tanks.
Hey thanks for telling me the prop pitch isn't working yet. According to a pony driver, your sposed to use the rpms to adjust your manifold pressure for take-off and other stuff, like, OH, diving!
Back to the drawing board!
Mr.ED
327th P.S./1st A.C.G.
Knight
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I think a lot of guys know they have to stay high to stay alive, but not many know how to use it to their adv.
garners seen me in action apperantly...
alt seems to hurt me more then the reds....
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I haven't seen it mentioned here yet and in case you don't already know, I'd like to express the importance of TRIM.
TRIM is a huge part of flying any aircraft and should not be neglected. Forget autopilot unless you a B-17 at 30,000ft.
If you are trimmed out for level flight at 20,000ft and proceed to enter a dive, even with power all the way back, you will be building up a lot of speed. If you do not re-trim for this speed you will most certainly lose control of the plane.
From your description it sounds like your plane is pitching and rolling. That's exactly what would happen if you had too much up elevator trim(from level flight). Even though you may have the stick pushed all the way forward there is still too much deflection of the elevator. You need to trim elevator down to maintain a dive.
Also, if you are pulling back power most of the torque force is going to be gone as well as gyro, prop wash, and P-factor forces. When flying level under max power, a lot of aileron and rudder trim is necessary to keep the plane flying straight. Again, once these forces are deminished your plane will be seriously out of trim.
So in order to keep your plane under control in a dive you are going to have to adjust your trim.
If you are already trimming and are still having control problems then you need to reduce throttle/speed and add a notch of flaps or two before entering a dive. Trim and the other points mentined in the posts above should be able to keep you in a substained dive from 30,000ft to 0ft.
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Wicked
The Pale Horses
487th Lil Bastards
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Wicked, Good point indeed! I have all my trim controls at my finger tips, failed to mention that before.
Westy This is for you.
This morning armed with my new flight knowlege here is how my flight went. I was cruising at 19ishK & 200KHP, saw a NIKI at 5-8K below me, chopped throttle, lowered RPM, lower flaps fully. Started to decent at -3.0K rate got up to 400 true, then pulled up on the nose to a 1k climb, bleed her down to 300kph, then circled until I was on the six of the NIKI and 2k above, powered up/retracted flaps and dove in at -3k and leveled off at 400kph just behind & below the KIKI, made my gun pass & struck her across the port side from mid-section to nose, then went vertical, at 3k above I rolled to a high yo-yo, and got into the same postion then made my second pass, hit her again on the port side, this time across the rear quarter, the NIKI listed, I went vertical, as I was looking backwards, I saw the pilot bail.
My first AH kill. flew back to Knight-terf,landed and did the happy dance.
The trick is a shallow slow desent. In stages if needed. Oh yeah I made dang sure there wasn't another Bishop for 3 grid squares!
As far as I can figure so far, in a pony, you have a 2-4K down zoom before the thing starts to rocket. Asuming you are at 200kph when you start your dive.
Hope this helps, sure helped me.
Mr.ED
327th P.S.
Knights
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Well i have pretty much flown the p51 since the start,and have not found the need to fly anything else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Might give the 190 a shot as you handle the plane the same as the 51..
So,your locking up in a high speed dive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) After a few weeks ive found the soloution to this.Use the same manuver use use to avoid being shot up from the rear..
I have no problem losing 10k and keeping a constant air speed,back off throttle & do the scissor manuver, hard & fast if your speed is to hi,nice slow easy movement once you have the speed you want to maintain..Ocne you are allmost level apply throttle as needed..
I usually go full throttle & wep once level so i can keep & gain speed to regrab alt..
After augering a number of time,i found this to work to my advantage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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--wd-- Jagdgeschwader 26 "Schlageter"
"The Abbeville Boys"
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In regards to trim...
The solution to the changing trim situation in a dive is auto-trim for angle. Simply start your dive, engage auto-trim for angle, and trim will adjust as your speed increases. When you get close to your pull-out, and you speed is near your gun pass speed, disengage the auto-trim and make your pass. For a most efficient zoom climb, re-engage auto-trim for angle for the zoom.
Handy little ticket that auto-trim. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs