Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Squire on May 14, 2002, 03:53:45 PM
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At least. It out runs SpitIs on the deck easily.
290 TAS max at sea level is what its supposed to do not 315 TAS.
Its faster than its own AH charts indicate its supposed to be.
I hope this is looked at, its no wonder all the LW in the CT fly it over the 109E, I mean why not? its a 110G really. Cripes.
Regards.
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Hello, Luftwaffe fans?!?:confused:
Here is an example of a bluntly overmodeled Luftwaffe aircraft. This is your chance to show how unbiased you really are and press for realism by asking for it to be fixed.
The silence is getting louder in here.
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because he types a post?
atleast other guys offered up films and pics of stuff they tested.
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I'll check it out, run some tests.
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Wotan,
Nope. This was the second thread about it, in the last one Ripsnort posted his test results.
Here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53248
That thread garnerd the same notice as this one, none.
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Sorry Karnak.. my test doesn't agree with Rips. Sea level speed (tested at 50 feet anyway).
Me110C: 289 (no wep)/ 299 (wep- 5 minutes)
Spit I: 283 (no wep) / 291 (wep- 5 minutes)
Doesn't even come close to making the 315 claimed here or the 335 claimed in Rips test. Maybe I did something wrong?
EDIT: Oh, for my test I climbed the 110 to about 3,000 feet, levelled out without WEP, went and smoked a cigerette, came back. Climbed back to 3k, dove without WEP, levelled out and punch WEP. Ran level until wep ran out. Proceeded to kill 2 drones with MGs, and then ran into a hangar trying to fly underneath it inverted :). I'll check out the Spit I next.
EDIT, part deus: Just checked the AH help chart on the 110C.. looks like it matches up pretty exactly to me.
EDIT: Part.. tres?: Added the Spit I. It can outrun Spit I's, not sure about the 'easily' part though.
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I bet Rip had the G on accident.
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I got 290mph when i tested it. Funked, yer probably right.
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So you can film the test and use the film viewer to get exact speeds now can't you? Squire if there is something wrong then it should be trivial to post a film showing it.
Hooligan
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Look that another thread, I did post something to there.
Also if you really want to whine then maybe This thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48354) could be good.
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"Here is an example of a bluntly overmodeled Luftwaffe aircraft. This is your chance to show how unbiased you really are and press for realism by asking for it to be fixed.
The silence is getting louder in here."
Yep; I did post scanned pic from Francis K. Mason's book "The Hawker Hurricane, An Illustrated History (edition 2001) I ordered from Crecy publishing.
BTW Karnak are you really thinking 110C is "bluntly overmodelled" and if yes could you tell which part?
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Well, Urchin, it looks to me more like 300 without boost, and 310 with boost.
Have a look.
That it can slightly outpace a SpitfireI is also an indicator that its too fast at sea level.
The film shows an unboosted speed first, then boost on and you see a 10mph increase, to 310 (thats what it looks like to me), the marker is clearly over the 300 line.
Btw what brought this on was fighting some 110s in the CT, and being unable to close them at sea level, even after an extended chase. Thats fine for a Hurricane, not a Spitfire. I couldnt find any source that gave the 110C-4 a faster max speed than 349.
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Is there a trick to uploading films?
I didnt know about the external film view that shows exact speeds, I will have another look.
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The speeds I posted are from using AH film. It shows you your exact altitude (in feet) and your exact speed (in miles per hour). Therefore, I am quite sure the speeds I listed above are correct.
As far as the Bf110 outpacing the Spitfire I at sea level in real life, I don't know. I've never seen any comparison between the two.
But I do know that the speed in the game matches the speed on the charts in AH help. You may want to ask around and/or look for data to back up your theory that the Spitfire I was faster than the Bf110C4 at sea level.
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Yep, I got 289mph @22feet without wep.
The silence is getting louder in here.
It sure is.
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Staga gives some info in the other thread re: the engines on the AH 110C-4. Perhaps this is why it seems faster than some other 110Cs that I have info on. I will have to do some more looking.
Certainly the 110C-3s and earlier C-4s were indeed closer to 290 max at sea level, if his info is correct, so I feel somewhat vindicated in bringing it up as a topic.
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OK, you all have my apologoies. I just accepted that Ripsnort had tested the correct Bf110.
(I was a little bent that there'd been two threads about it and nary a peep from the Luftwaffe dedicated, whereas some seem only too willing to participate in discussions about overmodeled USAAF and RAF aircraft. BTW, I do think there are some valid issues there, such as the Spit I's roll rate)
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Karnak:
Just follow this simple algorithm.
1) Say: "Got film?"
2) When the answer is (invariably) "No", then...
3) Beat them
In this particular case Squire does not have film and Urchin does but since Urchin is the Luftweenie we beat him.
Bad Urchin!
I hope that clears this up.
Also if somebody wants some film hosted and can't do it themselves, send it to me (jayb@exmsft.com) and I will host it and place a link to it in this thread.
Hooligan
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I'm just wondering if Spit Mk1 should be faster in SL than it is in AH?
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Staga,
I can't find any reference with that info.
The Spit I's sea level speed in AH seems believable to me.
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The 110 problem appears to be a calibration issue with the 110's airspeed indicator. My test showed in ahfilm.exe 290 max speed at sea level, and 300 with WEP. The air speed indicator in the plane was showing ~ 15 mph faster than that. I also tested the Spit Ia and got 283 max speed, 291 with WEP. Films here (http://www.jump.net/~p47/110speedtest.zip) (264kb).
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Originally posted by Squire
It out runs SpitIs on the deck easily.
290 TAS max at sea level is what its supposed to do not 315 TAS.
It's because HTC hates the RAF, hates the Spitfire, and hates you too.
-Sikboy
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Wotan,
Nope. This was the second thread about it, in the last one Ripsnort posted his test results.
Since the new film viewer came out it easier to film it the open in the viewer. you will get a speed read out on the right and you can compare that with the speedometer in the cockpit.
After rips post i did that and like sancho it seems the gauge is off in the cockpit compared to the the speed in the film viewer.
Theres was really nothing to reply to in this or the other thread because all we had was a statement without any supporting evidence.
The burden of proof is always on the claimant. If you want something changed then its up to you to prove it and provide the evidence that demonstrates that. You Allied whiners are ruining AH you what you "feel" is wrong. :)
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What Wotan said.
110 is slightly faster on wep, everything else the spit does better though, as it should (ok not guns).
The spit 1 roll rate sure seem to be too fast judging from what charts we've seen so far, don't hear any whining about that though.
Gonna go check these films now.
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IIRC, In Sims "The Greatest Aces" there is one account of a chase on the deck between a 110 and a Spit in the Battle of Britain. The Spit was able to catch the 110 in this case, but not by a wide margin.
Don't know what kind of E-stealing manuvers were going on though.
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Well Sancho seems to agree with me that it shows 315 on the Airspeed Indicator, so that may be the problem. It should be tighter I think.
As for the Spits roll rate, it either rolls too fast or perhaps the 109Es is too slow, thats my opinion. Im for 100 percent accuracy in all models, irregardless of type, or nationality.
I will also say that I like a good debate on WW2 ac (and other things) and I usually learn something usefull from them.
Regards.
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I agree with SAncho look at how the airssped indicator is off set from the center line this also happens with the flap deployment needle . Both the flap posit indicator and the airspeed needle need to be fixed not the aircraft performance itself.
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Karnak reason why I think so is that in Mason's book about hurricanes is a speed/alt/climb speed table (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/wwiiol/hurricane-speed-climb-chart1.jpg) for all Hurri models and in that sheet Hurricane I (Edited: Should read Hurri I instead of II)) with MerlinIII and Rotol three bladed constant speed prop has a SL speed 280mph thought I have to check if there is remarks if speed was with 87 or 100oct fuel and what kind of load it was having.
Are Hurri and Spit using 87oct in AH? That would explain a lot.
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If they are BoB models (which they are) then 100 octane is what they should be using.
Ospreys "Spitfire I Aces 1939-41" by Alfred Price. Page 19:
"In the spring of 1940 the RAF began using 100 octane petrol in operational aircraft".
So in France it was 87 octane, but in the BoB it was 100 octane. The book mentions a 25 mph increase at sea level for the Spitfire, but doesnt say what that speed was. Obviously the Hurricane would have got a boost as well, of some kind, but again, doesnt give a number.
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You guys quit aggreeing with sancho. His ego will become unbearable:D
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The 110C in the game is technically a 110C-4b which differs from the 110C-4 not just with the addition of bomb racks, but also with the more powerful DB 601N engines.
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Of course... the C4b! What were we arrogant selfrightous number picking, self proclaimed experts thinking!
Unless your a Boeing engineer or involved in the aerospace industry as a technician, please knock off with the "THE SPIT IX TOP SPEED IS 5 MPH FASTER AT 15513.449393865 ft THAN IT SHOULD BE."
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Originally posted by Pyro
The 110C in the game is technically a 110C-4b which differs from the 110C-4 not just with the addition of bomb racks, but also with the more powerful DB 601N engines.
...and if you look that another thread (Ripsnorts)...
btw Bf-110C had two different engines: DB601A (1175hp/87oct.) in early versions and more powerfull DB601N (1250hp/100oct.) in versions capable to carry bombs (like in AH).
:D :p
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Mister Fork. If the subject matter is over your head, maybe just stick to name calling threads, or whatever else it is you may be good at at, thanks.
Regarding the DB601N engines, have I already acknowledged that info, many posts ago.
As for the Airspeed Indicator, it shows 315 as the 110C-4/bs top boosted speed, not 300, which is why the thread was started to begin with.
Follow all that? Good. Im sorry that a player might have had feedback or questions, next time I will just flame somebody, you know...to fit in.
"May 2002" with 3 posts? your off to a great start here.
Regards.
p.s. Thanks for stopping in Pyro, its good to know you have a look at what us prop heads are going on about :) Appreciate the confirmation of the Bf 110 data.
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I used to be a Boeing engineer involved in the aerospace industry. Does that mean I have carte blanche?
Hooligan
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No.. only luftwobbles like me get carte blanche. And we don't need to post any films either. Mwaahahahahaaaaaaaaa.