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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 08:13:41 AM

Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 08:13:41 AM
Everyone!

While commuting back from work, a thought came to my mind which I want to share with everyone.

As a background to this thought, I believe I am suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome.  "What is that?" you may ask.  Well, I believe it was first observed in Air Warrior when it made the transition from AW2 to AW3.  A map called the BigPac was introduced which was based on the Pacific Ocean from the west coast to the Far East with numerous bases in the middle, including Hawaii.  At first, the map was greeted with delight from the players as it was something new.  But what this meant was that it was constant land grab over and over again.  

After several months on playing in the BigPac, many players, if not some, started to suffer from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome.  The players felt that gameplay became stale as it was the same thing over and over again.  

Many suggestions were made by the players like the Furball Atoll, where the bases were not capturable, and new maps as well.  New maps were good but it didn't really last very long until the syndrome showed its symptoms again.

I honestly find Naudet's leaving alarming in this respect.  Is the BigPac Burnout Syndrome setting in in Aces High?  It might be, as I and a number of players I know are starting to feel this bite.

While in Air Warrior, I always felt that the best settings for a map was the old Air Warrior Classic maps where only the bases in the middle were capturable.  Strat targets like Spit Factories could be taken out which showed immediate response.  Players had a choice of furballing or participating in coordinated effort to eliminate a base for capture.  I think it had a balance and simple to comprehend.

I am not going to advocate getting an Air Warrior Classic Map-like maps for AH.  Not at all.  This will not emphasize the good features that are already there in AH.

Come to the Combat Theatre, you say?  Yes, I would, but the setup is the same as the MA, it's a constant land grab again.  The only CT setup that I thought I was balanced was the Battle of Britain map, and even this will emphasize only furballs.

So, what is my thought.  I see the issue with the MA in several points:

1. its a constant land grab because winning the reset is the objective
2. side with more players wins the reset
3. its not too rewarding to take out facilities like factories or even HQs because it can be resupplied

What came to my mind is this:
A. Set a time limit for a map reset (let's say 72 hours)
B. A map came be reset within the time limit like we do now by eliminating one side to one base.  The side with more bases wins the reset like we do now.
C. When the time comes, the winning side will be determined by the number of perk points awarded per hour of player play.
D. Award bonus perk points for completely destroying strat targets like facilities and HQ. (let's say 10 perks)

C. and D. are the key to this suggestion.  With C., we really do not need to worry about being outnumbered to win the war as what will determine the winner is the number of perk points earned per hour of play in the country.  Even if we are on the last two bases, as long as that holds out until the time limit, we can still win.  

With D., it will make more buff runs to the strat targets which I think should be emphasized a little bit more than it is now.  I mean before, it was a thrill to take out the enemy HQ by going deep inside enemy territory and take it out for 2hours.  But now, the only time when it is taken out is when one side is about to be eliminated.

I thought of using points but that will not encourage people to use rare birds, so I recommend perk points instead...

Well that's it.  I think this will bring more balance than just land grabs in the MA.  If you have any thoughts, kindly let me know...

Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Charon on May 15, 2002, 09:03:02 AM
Quote
While in Air Warrior, I always felt that the best settings for a map was the old Air Warrior Classic maps where only the bases in the middle were capturable. Strat targets like Spit Factories could be taken out which showed immediate response. Players had a choice of furballing or participating in coordinated effort to eliminate a base for capture. I think it had a balance and simple to comprehend.


I agree, and it was something I whined about regularly on the EA boards until the day I left. I guess the issue, and I'm sure it would be the case here, was that with the big numbers from the initial AOL move there were server probles with concentrating too many players in one spot.

The big drag of the Big PAC (FR perspective), and something I have seen here from time to time in recent days, was the blatent milkrunning. I particularly noticed it in a recent PAC CT setup.

In AW the map was huge (and no total reset required), and human nature seemd to dicate each side off in one corner of the map making lowly resisted mass attacks and avoiding the bulk of the enemy on the other two teams, who were off in other corners doing the same thing. They were taking bases and winning the war :) -- but with minimal resistance. Not what I enjoyed in the game and quite a change from the ACM focus of the SVGA days. Had I virtual relatives living at those virtual bases I might have cared :)

It was boring to take part in a mass attack, and frustrating to try and resist one with only a handful of other players. Finding a good, halfway even fight was hard, and with the ccip bombsights and easy porkage model (a lone p-51 could make an airfield useless) it took a long time just to get to the field under attack.

AH has minimized this in several ways. It's harder to pork a field, and easier to bring one back up. Also, with the full resets here you can't avoid the enemy as easily. Still, milkrunning is something to keep in mind when selecting the new, larger map sizes.

BTW, some interesting suggestions, but [edit: In some ways they may encourage more milkrunning since the requirement to close with the enemy would be reduced as far as I can tell. I do believe, at least for the CT, that an alternative victory strategy needs to be developed since the base capture thing is a bit gamy and doesn't serve some of the historical imbalance issues very well.]

Your C & D points are interesting. Also, what if, as in AW, when you hit a factory it impacts one of the top three fighters (usage). You could use last tour stats or some current tour calculation. I think that would be an interesting twist :)

Charon
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: BOOT on May 15, 2002, 09:25:48 AM
FD  Great Ideas :)

I think Fighter Town in the MA would be a major benefit.
One of the things I love about AH vs AW is the variety of play available...  If I get tired of the Land Grab, I can go on a Ground Assault with a GV... or I can man a Ships guns...

The one element that I really miss is the ability to go to an area where you can just furball... and / or get a good one on one. While still being in the MA...
But even with a Fighter Town in the MA... With the HO's it would be difficult to have good fights.

BOOT
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Steven on May 15, 2002, 10:06:17 AM
Heh heh, I'd be flying buffs a lot more if there were Spit factories to attack.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 10:30:38 AM
Thank you gentlemen for your comments.  

I forgot to add another point...

Quote

What came to my mind is this:
A. Set a time limit for a map reset (let's say 72 hours)
B. A map came be reset within the time limit like we do now by eliminating one side to one base. The side with more bases wins the reset like we do now.
C. When the time comes, the winning side will be determined by the number of perk points awarded per hour of player play.
D. Award bonus perk points for completely destroying strat targets like facilities and HQ. (let's say 10 perks)


In addition to this...

E. As an option, the scoring system can be modified like the current ranking system for Pilot ranks and Squad ranks will be used, where the average of the ranks for the categories for Fighter, Attack, Bomber, and Vehicle/Boat Ranks will determine the overall rank.  In case of a tie (which will happen...), the raw scores of the perk points per hour will be considered.  (I didn't want to say the number of bases as this will be the same as now).

Quote
Originally posted by Charon
BTW, some interesting suggestions, but [edit: In some ways they may encourage more milkrunning since the requirement to close with the enemy would be reduced as far as I can tell.


Really? You think so?  Well, what I consider milkrunning is an obnoxious one where people pork the bases.  Please note that my suggestions only apply to facilities and not bases.

One more thing that I'd like to address is that when a facility like the grunt training facility or the ammo factory gets porked, do we really feel any difference right now?  I don't think so.  Most are located so far away from the front line, like the HQ, people will fly in a goon anyway, making the buff run not so rewarding.  By the time on egress, its already up.  By the time the front line is so close, the losing country is already in the face of defeat.

Right now targetting a base is much more rewarding as compared to bombing a city or oil refinery (when these facilities should be equally protected).

My suggestion will, yes, increase buff runs but, well, that is the whole point of that part of my suggestion.

Quote
Originally posted by Charon
I do believe, at least for the CT, that an alternative victory strategy needs to be developed since the base capture thing is a bit gamy and doesn't serve some of the historical imbalance issues very well.]


yeah... that is correct.  This idea actually came up as a spin off of a suggestion for CT that I was thinking about.  When I cooked it up, it became suitable for the MA as well.

Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Also, what if, as in AW, when you hit a factory it impacts one of the top three fighters (usage). You could use last tour stats or some current tour calculation. I think that would be an interesting twist


This I find very interesting, although HTC will need another strat of a plane factory.

Quote
Originally posted by BOOT
I think Fighter Town in the MA would be a major benefit.
One of the things I love about AH vs AW is the variety of play available...  If I get tired of the Land Grab, I can go on a Ground Assault with a GV... or I can man a Ships guns...


Hehehe, I think point E. will emphasize a well rounded play of all types of sorties... ;)

Quote
Originally posted by BOOT
The one element that I really miss is the ability to go to an area where you can just furball... and / or get a good one on one. While still being in the MA...
But even with a Fighter Town in the MA... With the HO's it would be difficult to have good fights.


Ah... I was trying to avoid the Fighter Town... cuz, I remember the reactions of it from some people.  They didn't like and wanted it out, and into another arena... well, that is the DA and we know how populated that place is.

Well, AH is AH, I thought of digesting it first rather than introduce it just like it was in AW, cuz AW is AW...

Well, that's it for now...

Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 11:37:17 AM
oh yeah, I forgot to mention another thing...

If HTC should take in this suggestion, a new score board will be necessary to show the current standings of the countries broken down by categories and perk points per hour.  An constant announcement at intervals from the server how many hours left for the war would also be essential.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Turbot on May 15, 2002, 01:48:00 PM
There would have to be something to discourage increased gang banging.  Perks per hour would reward and encourage more of this.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Virage on May 15, 2002, 02:33:21 PM
If you can't find a furball in the MA, you ain't lookn.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 05:37:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Turbot
There would have to be something to discourage increased gang banging.  Perks per hour would reward and encourage more of this.


True that might happen.  Please think about option E.  You can't win if you are just good in the fighter category.

Post edit:

on second thought, this is not that likely as it seems.  More players on one side means more hours of player play.  Shooting down one enemy aircraft with ten guys is not rewarding compared to shooting down with two.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 05:38:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Virage
If you can't find a furball in the MA, you ain't lookn.


Did I or any other post on this thread say this?   Please re-read what is posted.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Virage on May 15, 2002, 08:28:21 PM
Quote
I always felt that the best settings for a map was the old Air Warrior Classic maps ... Players had a choice of furballing or participating in coordinated effort to eliminate a base for capture. I think it had a balance and simple to comprehend.


Forgive me for not comprehending.  

The above quote describes the MA imo.  I assumed your post was a furballer vs. teamplay post.

If the point of your post is to lobby for a greater strategic role in gameplay, I agree.  But a strategic layer IS in the game,just rarely utilized.  HQ's may not be worth the effort, but you won't see many goons resupplying a city or factory.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 15, 2002, 10:18:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Virage

The above quote describes the MA imo.


Yes, we do have those options.  However, my point is that the current objective of the MA is skewed more to land grabs.

Quote
Originally posted by Virage

If the point of your post is to lobby for a greater strategic role in gameplay, I agree.  But a strategic layer IS in the game,just rarely utilized.  HQ's may not be worth the effort, but you won't see many goons resupplying a city or factory.


Ok, please correct me if I am wrong... Is the current strat modelling in the MA complete or no?  I thought I read when HTC released 1.09, that they were going to do it in several steps.  I am under the impression that it is not complete yet.  Do we really feel the pain if one of our facility was leveled?  I really have not seen certain supplies missing yet.  So, currently, is it worth it to take out a factory? No.  On the same token, is it worth to resupply it when its down?  No.

The point of my suggestion is that there should be an incentive to take out these strat factories etc.  HQ has it for the radar but resupplying feature kind of killed the effort of taking it out now.  The point of the bonus perks are just to provide an incentive.  However, I would rather have more of a penalizing effect like taking out HQ, where certain supplies are not available.  As a gameplay, this is more of a clearer objective.

People would like to attain their objective, and in the current setup what is worth it is base capture.  This is made easier by sheer numbers, which tends people to gangbang or go to a country with more numbers.

As Charon pointed out, what I think we need is an alternative victory strategy or objective.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Virage on May 15, 2002, 11:54:41 PM
You bring up many issues...

Direct Strat effects.
I believe HTC's strat philosophy is NOT to limit plane types.  A few pilots denying others the ability to play the way they want is not good business.  

Current Strat
I think the current strat system has value.  The increased down time multiplies the effectiveness of any damage your team inflicts.

Is the system abstract? Yes.  Is it difficult to assess the direct result of destroying a strat obj? Yes.  Listing a 'downtime multiplier' next to the '% damaged' list on the Strat Page might help communicate the effects.

Although the current strat model is functioning, everything in AH is evolving.

Incentive.
Publishing and lowering  the OBJ values for strat targets would increase the perk points awarded.

Landgrabbing.
Meaning = mob gangbang base attacks?  Will always be in the game.  I think this has more to do with the players then the system.  There is plenty of warning for the defending team to mount a large defense to stop any gang bang.  The problem is most players are not willing to stop what they are doing/leave the flock to meet the new threat.

Numbers always win.
Will always be in the game.  Again this is a player issue.  The percentage of players that jump on the bandwagon is large enough to inflate the winning team.  Perk points for picking the lowest population team and increased team switch times would be fine by me,  but might piss off a large part of HTC's player base.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 16, 2002, 02:05:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Virage
You bring up many issues...


Oh yes I do... :D what I am talking about is a balance here.  It needs to be addressed from all sides possible.

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Direct Strat effects.
I believe HTC's strat philosophy is NOT to limit plane types.  A few pilots denying others the ability to play the way they want is not good business.  


Right, I do understand that this is a concern.  What is suggested here is a temporary disabling of the planes, not permanent.  So, as a gameplay, it is a feasible addition IMHO.

My suggestions can live without it, though.

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Current Strat
I think the current strat system has value.  The increased down time multiplies the effectiveness of any damage your team inflicts.

Is the system abstract? Yes.  Is it difficult to assess the direct result of destroying a strat obj? Yes.  Listing a 'downtime multiplier' next to the '% damaged' list on the Strat Page might help communicate the effects.

Although the current strat model is functioning, everything in AH is evolving.


Yes, I agree that it has value and I understand how it works.  This is more the reason why there should be more incentive to attack these targets.  As you mentioned in your other post, it is rarely used, at least not often enough.  HTC really worked hard to get this going, I would like to see it targetted more.

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Incentive.
Publishing and lowering  the OBJ values for strat targets would increase the perk points awarded.


Yes, it would.  To provide the incentive to attack the strat targets more, I would like to see a marked difference between attacking a base and attacking a strat target.

Also, for the defense team, there should be a clear incentive to prevent such an attack.  The defense team should feel the pain if it is destroyed.

As you mentioned, it is difficult to assess the direct result of an attack to a strat target.  Incentive-wise, this is a problem for both the offense and the defense.  Both sides will ask, "is it worth attacking?" or "is it worth preventing?"

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Landgrabbing.
Meaning = mob gangbang base attacks?  Will always be in the game.  I think this has more to do with the players then the system.  There is plenty of warning for the defending team to mount a large defense to stop any gang bang.  The problem is most players are not willing to stop what they are doing/leave the flock to meet the new threat.

Numbers always win.
Will always be in the game.  Again this is a player issue.  The percentage of players that jump on the bandwagon is large enough to inflate the winning team.  


Here I beg to differ.  This is the case because the objective in the MA is the reset, which stems from land grabbing.  Providing an alternative objective will change this.

From my point of view, this is what happened to AH.  I started AH from v1.06.  At about that time resets happened but certainly not as often as now.  So, it was more up to the players to decide if they want to furball or participate in landgrabs.  Resets won't happen that often anyway, so your country is not in danger, mainly due to the smaller population base of the players.

Right now, resets can happen within 12hours of each other, mainly because of the larger population base that we have now.  Landgrabbing has become more of the norm of what to do in the MA.

So, it is like a viscious cycle.  Yes, it is partly the players attitude.  But it's a game.  The objective fuels more gangbangs because the players want to feel the sense of achievement in the game.

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Perk points for picking the lowest population team and increased team switch times would be fine by me,  but might piss off a large part of HTC's player base.


Kindly allow me to clarify this point a little bit more.

1. The current objective of the reset remains unchanged.  There is just a time limit for it.
2. My point C. is designed to put any team, regardless of the size, on equal footing.  For example, if Team B clocks 200 hours of playing time of all players total and earns 200 perk points in total, this is 1 perk point per player-hour.  If Team K clocks 100 hours and earns 100 perk points, this is also 1 perk point per player-hour.  Of course the team with a bigger population has to do more as a team and they are expected to do so anyway.  But that will not change the share of achievement requested from each individivual, regardless of the size of the team.  As a team, you have to do well and strive for more so the average will get better.  Cooperation in the team is a must.

Changing sides will not matter, because the player-hour is logged and stays with the country that player was flying in.  So does the perk point.

So this will not encourage people to switch sides in either direction nor does it penalize a team with a larger population.

[Post edit]
Please also keep in mind point E.  The perk point per player-hour is ranked by category of Fighter, Attacker, Bomber, and Vehicle/Boat categories, and the overall rank will be used just like the Pilot ranking that we see on the web-site for HTC.  The reason for this thought is because I fear that one team may do ridiculously better in one category than the rest, when I want to encourage a well-rounded play.  The fear I have is that there is only three countries... ties are likely and so I need a contingent... perhaps the average of the perk-point per player-hour by may do...

As for the scoreboard a dot command (let's say .score countries) with a text display will be fine...

          Fighter     Attack      Bomber    Vehicle/Boat  Overall Rank
Bishops   xxx.xx (1)  aaa.aa (3)  xxx.xx (2)  xxx.xx (2)       (2)
Knights   yyy.yy (2)  bbb.bb (2)  xxx.xx (1)  xxx.xx (3)       (1)
Rooks     zzz.zz (3)  ccc.cc (1)  xxx.xx (3)  xxx.xx (1)       (3)


To repeat myself, as I stated in 1. this is considered if a reset was not achieved by the time limit.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Virage on May 16, 2002, 03:52:06 AM
The larger maps and 4XBuffs may solve many concerns.  At least there will be more elbow room.

I am a stat fanatic.  Your team perk point ideas sound cool.  I wish the HTC website had a MA Stat section for things like this.

I don't think using team perks as a secondary winning objective is a good idea however.  The perk system was designed to offer a new carrot and maintain a balanced arena, not as a qualitative scoring tool.  At the very least, could you imagine explaining a secondary winning system to a newbie?

Why do you want a map time limit?
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Naudet on May 16, 2002, 04:23:41 AM
Hi FD,

just a couple of comments, as you took my retirement as an alarming signal.

1st i agree with you that hitting/destroying some strat targets should show some more direct consequences on gameplay than at the moment.
I never did any strat bombing in the MA as it was never worth the time. If in the defense, it would not slow down the attackers, and if in the attack it would not really hurt the defenders.
A simple mass attack is the "ultima ratio" since 1.08 now.


What really made me leave was the huge increase in numbers for the MA while the mapsize stayed the same.
With this increase in numbers there were basicly two situations left in the MA.
Either you fly with a horde or against a horde.

That's it.

Even well planned raids of a few guys would just be wiped out by the pure mass of defenders.
Had that on couple occasions were my squad planned something. We got 6-7 guys together, took a target, but no success. On the 1st sign of an attack, the target spawned defenders like hell, so that it would just lead to a new furball.
That way i completely lost interest in organized runs, as they were worthless.

And as i like a balanced fight, the two above mentioned options (with or without a horde) don't really made me stay.

To come back to the strat system.

I would like to see something like this:
Each country has a resources pool (for fuel, ammo, troops, planes etc.) and the factories add there production to that pool.
Each used plane, vehicle etc. drains from that pool.

The production of a country - all factories intact - would support around 175-200 players in constant action.  
If more players are fighting for that country resources go down faster and it might come to some shortcomings. This would prevent to overwhelming numbers, cause when a country would suddenly bring 300 players, after a while they would have some shortages in fuel etc.

Now if factories are hit, the supply would go down. when the resources are lowering there would 1st be a limitation (i.e. 75% fuel and so on) and if this goes on for some thime the limitations are stricter.

The attacker could also increase those shortages bye attacking the "reserves" which would be ammo, fuel bunkers, barracks and hangars etc.

That would really increase the importance of raids against factories, cause they would have an impact on the supply of a whole country and not only on the rebuild times of objects.

Than a second aspect to the land graping would come into play, the need to destroy the resources of the country you want to overwhelm.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 16, 2002, 04:36:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Virage
The larger maps and 4XBuffs may solve many concerns.  At least there will be more elbow room.


I hope the bomber formation feature will do the trick... but from my experience with AW, newer maps just alleviates the symptoms temporarily and isn't really a solution...

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
I don't think using team perks as a secondary winning objective is a good idea however.  The perk system was designed to offer a new carrot and maintain a balanced arena, not as a qualitative scoring tool.  At the very least, could you imagine explaining a secondary winning system to a newbie?


Well, honestly, perk points is just something handy I could think of.  I thought of using the points but I was not sure how this was scored.  And I also wanted to encourage the usage of rare birds, so perk points was doing this trick already.  I thought of having another scoring system but that is not really needed if we could rely on the perk points for this purpose.

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Why do you want a map time limit?


LOL!  My man, there is no point in introducing an alternative objective without a time limit, is there?  The alternative is some sort of scoring system and somewhere along the line, the war has to end.  Right now, its the destruction of the enemy.  The alternative is how well you do as a team by a given time.
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: FDutchmn on May 16, 2002, 05:08:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
Hi FD,


... Hark!  I have seen Cod!  I have been enlightened!  Naudet has been resurrected! :D  

Hiya Naudet!

Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
To come back to the strat system.

I would like to see something like this:
Each country has a resources pool (for fuel, ammo, troops, planes etc.) and the factories add there production to that pool.
Each used plane, vehicle etc. drains from that pool.

The production of a country - all factories intact - would support around 175-200 players in constant action.  
If more players are fighting for that country resources go down faster and it might come to some shortcomings. This would prevent to overwhelming numbers, cause when a country would suddenly bring 300 players, after a while they would have some shortages in fuel etc.

Now if factories are hit, the supply would go down. when the resources are lowering there would 1st be a limitation (i.e. 75% fuel and so on) and if this goes on for some thime the limitations are stricter.

The attacker could also increase those shortages bye attacking the "reserves" which would be ammo, fuel bunkers, barracks and hangars etc.

That would really increase the importance of raids against factories, cause they would have an impact on the supply of a whole country and not only on the rebuild times of objects.

Than a second aspect to the land graping would come into play, the need to destroy the resources of the country you want to overwhelm.


Now this is interesting indeed.  This is good.  I might simplify it a bit more like we do have %-ages on how much the facility is up.  For fuel, that would be the amount of fuel the factory can sustain its production for the bases.  In such a case, one oil refinery will not be enough for the map because destruction of it will be too drastic.  hmmm... interesting...

I hope you come back soon!!
Title: Suffering from the BigPac Burnout Syndrome
Post by: Virage on May 16, 2002, 05:17:42 AM
Quote
LOL! My man, there is no point in introducing an alternative objective without a time limit, is there?


Of Course! Why didn't I see it earlier? :rolleyes: