Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RAM on March 26, 2000, 07:14:00 PM
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I was on Fw190A-8. 10K more or less...runnin at 400 mph from a bunch of bishcuits over F1. One F4U1-C was 1.8K away...I levelled, heard ONE ping...and kabooom
1) guy was very kind and answered my questions. He was 1.2K away in his FE. He saw 2 (TWO) pings.
2) Fw190 was a HEAVILY ARMORED plane with HEAVY armor for both plane and the pilot.
3) Shot was from 1.2K AWAY in his FE. 1.8K on mine...and again I wasnt level...I was a little nose down in a very very shallow turn left (to reach W heading, right back to F2, home).
HTC...This MUST be fixed. I accept some pings from 50 cals at those ranges. I accept some damages,too. But a fw190 was MORE than capable of sustaining that damage, and a Hispano cannon was IMPOSSIBLE to aim at those ranges, due for bullet fall.
I had NO previus damage. I was far. I regard this as the MOST bizarre death in AH since I came here. I have no film,sorry I was TOO BUSY trying to get away from more than 7 cons.
I dont whine about F4U1-C. I whine about the gunnery model that allows this kind of deaths. PLEASE MAKE THIS SHOTS IMPOSSIBLE.
Of course I'll stay here if it left as it is or not. But for sure I am VERY UNHAPPY with it.
And dont start saying that hispanos ...blah blah blah...
Nice shot, Fariz, im not whining about ur gunnery ,but about the model that allows these kills so common...<S> to ur shooting
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-26-2000).]
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I don't know if these shots should be impossible, but they are certainly occuring too frequently.
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I haven't been able to hit beyond 1k, but then again I've never tried. Just to back you up RAM, a couple days ago I knocked the tail off another f4u at a range of 900 yds. On my FE, I saw 3 pings. (By tail, I mean the entire tail assembly, rudder & elevators.) It's rare to get hits beyond about 900 yds, but it can happen. Perhaps netlag played a part here, after all, you are both located quite a distance from HTC. To the server you may have been much closer than 1.8k. (It would be nice to see a film, if you have one?) The maximum distance I've ever seen a hit at was 1.6k on my FE, when I was shooting a b26 with the tailguns of my b26. It was during the buff-dual we had sometime ago, and I did post a film of it. If you view the film you will see that I landed 50+ hits from long range, but as you would expect, no damage was the result.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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nonono...not tail off, or wing gone...KAboom, Kaput, ded, bye bye...etc...
I've beed killed more that 10 times this way ,and I've suffered serious damage a lot of times, also from extreme ranges...
No, I have no film. I was very very busy trying to open my way home thru a bunch of enemy cons...and lately I dont use film in MA too. (I have more than 100 films to see still). But you have my explanation. Fariz can also give his. and there were at least 7 red dots after me...some must have seen this.
As I saw him 1,8K and he saw me 1.2K I take the latter as the distance the server took between my plane an him. Excuse me, 1.2K is EXTREME range for 50 cals...for 20mm must be nearly impossible.
As funked said, these deaths are happening VERY frequently...the model must be changed somehow to give these shots nearly 0% chances to hit.
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I thought the Hispano 20mm were as good if not a bit better trajectory wise than the .50 cal? If so, then it is reasonable, if unlikely, to make this shot.
You auto-leveled. Big mistake... makes you a perfectly still target. He got lucky and popped a cannon shell in your canopy... boom. That doesn't mean he blew the plane up from damage, just that he got lucky with a single shell. It happens.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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sorry lephturn...no autolevel in any moment...nose down, banked to the left and shallow course change.
And 20mm hispanos had a much greater bullet drop than 50cals. U only need to see the speed and weight of the bullet in each weapon.
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Even if I agree to your last two points... (and I'm not certain about the velocity issue, I just don't have the data to argue the point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
He got lucky and put a shell in your ear. Unlikely shot but possible, he just sprayed a pile of 20mm shells in your general direction and connected with one. One lucky shot doesn't make any point other than that the gunnery model is realistic enough that "lucky shots" can and do happen, as they should. Better than an artificially limited guns range that takes chance out of the picture. IMHO.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-26-2000).]
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About that "Heavily armored" rhetoric going around.
Yes, planes have armor plates in them. It is still a plane though. A Panther tank is heavyily armored. An airplane still has to fly.
Ranges that people are able to hit each other seem excessive to me, but not their lethality.
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Hehe Lepht...I have to disagree again...I saw no tracers at all so I suppose the pings were done by a FEW rounds. However I didnt ask him about this so I wont assure it. But I can say,for sure that If I had seen any tracers I'd have rolled to both sides to shake the bullets (no 1G turn with those red hounds on my tail (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
1.2K Leph it is DAMNED FAR!. And is something that has repeated a lot of times last days...I agree not to make rounds dissapear. I want to see turned down the chances not to make it 0% at all.
Hans: thats why panthers stood 75mm rounds unscathed.
190A-8 is SO heavy and slow climbin because its armor plates. they were HEAVY armor plates designed to stand 12,7mm rounds from buffs and american fighters.A 20mm round has a lot of punch. But 1 1.2K round has much less kynetic E than a 0.1K one...
I feel like HMS Hood versus KM Bismarck...but with the difference that 20K yards 15''hits were PERFECTLY possible and probable.
Air-to-air 1.2K hits in RL werent that probable...in fact they were VERY strange...
not that strange in Aces High isnt it?
thats my point.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-26-2000).]
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RAM, he got lucky, period. His chances to hit you were very low, he just nailed you with the first shell or two very likely.
A single "lucky" shot, and nothing more.
Prove me wrong... show me a film where you get kills at 1K plus. And please don't say "I didn't have the camera running." If it's really too easy to get long range kills, it should only take a sortie or two to filme a couple. It's easy to take one occurence and blow it out of porportion, but try some real analysis and you will see the truth IMHO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I am open minded here... I would love to see film of a few sorties attempting this, and will graciously admit I was wrong if I am proven so.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Lephturn, yes I have no film on it...and I havent that shooting , I rarely hit anything beyond 600 yds, except buffs. But I've been killed many times this way. I may have no film but I have people that saw thatt or killed me. If u dont believe me, believe them. U dont need a film to prove that these things are getting usual in Main Arena...u only need to ask and u'll get many many examples of this.
I'm not telling that extreme range shooting is easy. It is HARD! I salute fariz and chaunc and all the people that has killed me from those ranges!...what i say is that IT ISNT HARD ENOUGH!, and that is a fact...
to say "I need a film to believe" is not fair. The thing is there and we all have seen or heard about it...and IMHO is a thing that needs to be fixed.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-26-2000).]
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RAM, the real Hispanos had equal or better muzzle velocity to the M2 .50 cal. Also the mass to drag ratio of the Hispanos was higher. The Hispano should therefore have equal or better trajectory and range.
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Heh, I got killed by P 38 rockets from 1000 yards in 400 mph IAS dive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It happens, I guess.
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Funny how things go. I was going to start a thread about how the 50's on my P-38 seem pretty in-effective. Seems that I have to be really close, like inside 400yds to have any effect at all.
Diving on a bomber I will start shooting at d1.2k and start tracking my shots in. Dang if I don't blow up when I see about d500-600 to BUFF.
Weird thing is often times I am not seeing tracers either. I just blow up, thinking "Well, they have been shooting at me cause I blew up!"
I have been getting alot of hits lately with no damage to target.
Confused... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Minotaur:
Funny how things go. I was going to start a thread about how the 50's on my P-38 seem pretty in-effective. Seems that I have to be really close, like inside 400yds to have any effect at all.
Diving on a bomber I will start shooting at d1.2k and start tracking my shots in. Dang if I don't blow up when I see about d500-600 to BUFF.
Weird thing is often times I am not seeing tracers either. I just blow up, thinking "Well, they have been shooting at me cause I blew up!"
I have been getting alot of hits lately with no damage to target.
Confused... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bang-on Mino! What's worse, other day while in the pony with RWY as wingman... I chase a 38 off him and land hits at D600-400 and the 38 goes in... NO KILL MESSAGE. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif) NO ASSIST MESSAGE. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) RWY witnessed that, so ask him if you doubt me.
Little later Propnut runs me into the ground chasing me in his 38 and never got a hit on me. but PropNut gets the "manuever kill" of me??? Yes, I blew up on channel 1 at that point. and HT bounced me off saying a nono poop word.
This crap has been going on for over a month now. When I got back on, I asked HT what gives and he has no idea(?) Now, I am not flaming HT, but one would think he'd be a bit more concerned when folks report stuff like this too him. At least he could have said they are looking into it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
One last thing -
I believe HT said they "...may model the APE round for the 50's..." the other day. This means we're stuck with straight AP (Armor Piercing) rounds. If this is the case, then I fully understand why the 50's "appear" weak. The bullet Zips right on through the target.
Now I've been misunderstood before and vice versa, so if I'm wrong HT, please illuminate us.
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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I hope HTC will look into it, indeed. I'm use to fire at d2-d4, like in WarBirds.
Yesterday I got hit from 1,600yds by a B-26 while I was maneuvering at his 4-5 o'clock(1,200yds on his FE, he told me). And from 1,200yds (maybe 800-1,000yds on his FE) by a F4U-1C, while I was flying level (my fault).
No, this is not the way I like to dogfight. Definitely.
Gatt
4^Stormo CT
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I have a video of me closing in on a spit. We had both just come out of a dive and I was 2k back. He banked to try to track another con and I closed to 900 yards. I fired off a voley into his left wing and was rewarded with 6 pings. The wing stayed attatched. The pilot reacted badly and jerked the controls. As a result I was at 400 yards and picking every piece off his plane quickly.
I would have loved for the 1k kill at that time. But.. I was rewarded with what I find usally happens at 1k.. a few pings (with no damage) then a bad reaction.
I've definately noticed the change in the cannon damage model. Anything over 700 yards is much tougher to kill. Almost as if I were firing 6 .50's at the target.
AKDejaVu
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The 190 A8 was not armoured to withstand 50 cal from most angles. It has armour rangin from 12mm behind head to 5mm an rear sides of cockpit. It probably has little more armour on it than a p51. If the bad guy had a long convergence set on his 20mm then he might have hit you with quite a few rounds even at 1.2 The hisp. cannon definatly seems to benifite from lack of atmoshperic conditions in the game though. 3/4 of a mile... wow. The minute dispersions caused by the wind and humidity and barrel warp and other small factors would render the weapon usless at that range. It shows up in the game for the M2 only because it is one of the few weapons thats ballistics tables indicate is should be able to hit and hurt at that range. In real life I doubt it was any more effective than the 151 but here it is unfetered by atmosphere. It is a very tough problem to solve. We dont want the gunfire arbitrarliy limited to what we see as reasonable. In strafing and against other stationary targets the M2 should be more potent then the other 20mm in the game. But it should have .002 chance of killing a plane at 3/4 of a mile. Just the recoil of the guns would probebly make hitting nearly imposible at that range.
Oh well it is quite a rare occurance. But I treat all corairs withing 1.5 of me as in range....
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Pongo...In my FE I was on 1.8K...you'd have been confident too.
190A-8 had heavy armor in the after section,too, except the sturmgruppen's planes wich had nearly all armor on bows and little on back. (and 30mm guns, and a nasty tendence to ram the bombers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
FUnked, I've revised the numbers on Hispano 20mm cannon and ur right, muzzle speed was the same as in 50 cals. Still the round was bigger and heavier and much more difficult to aim at long ranges than 50 cals. thats a fact.
AKDejavu. Maybe 20mm round damage was turned a bit down at long ranges. Well...but 1.8K in my FE 1.2K in his FE, one ping kaboom. If that is something to belief in, I'd better go and play Falcon 4.0
Mino: well its a good moment to say this. Twice last days( once in P38 and then in fw190), I've engaged bombers. I'll talk about last one because a lot of squaddies were there and saw it.
I came from avobe, and lateral. I fired and got pings on left wing with 20mms...nothing. I dived under the B26 and levelled 500 yds under him and a litle behind. Recovered speed and came up , burst again on left wing and some pings on fuselage. NOthing hapens. as I go up, the bomber has some pings on me. I roll the plane down and dive again. go down again 400 yds, the bomber still gets pings on me ...again I pop up, MORE PINGS on fuselage, right wing,...NOTHING HAPPENS, nothing, no smoke no pieces falling, no control surfaces gone...
The bomber ripped my wing in that pop up.
After that a squaddie attacked it and it went kaboom with a single little bust.
weird isnt it?
BTW no bad connection, I tested with ping plotter and it was OK, no packet loss and 325ms ping time...(usual in my connection).
20mm full busts concentrated at less than 200 yds do nothing to the bomber...and 12.7 mm on my 190 rips my wing after a few pings...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-27-2000).]
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Why is it that everyone thinks that 190 was such a fighter version of Sturmovnik ?
Last i checked it was relatively light aircraft - and yes, there were bomber killer versions but i believe that they had a different designation a8/u8 was it ?
Warbirds book has a interview with a canadian pilot who had something like 8 kills and he stated clearly that 190s were not hard to knock down at all...
he says that they went on fire after shot bursts of 303's - that combined with engine overheating problems... doesn't really make for flying tank, doesn it ?
I agree that shots over 1000 yards are silly and should stop - but don't expect to get hit with HS and have armor save you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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190A-1 to 190A-7 series were relative lightweights. That why I insist HTC to get it into AH. 190A-8 was a HEAVILY armored plane, regardless the U-X or R-X versions.
The 190A-8 variant u name was prolly the plane used by sturmgruppen...had 30mm guns, twice the armor in the front and slightly less in the back as a A-8. The plane was to be put at less that 100 yds from B-17s, then if the B17 stayed airborne, the pilot would RAM the plane!...The armor was enough to stand 12.7mm MG rounds from 50yds from the front side...s u can bet the pilot was enuf secure!
of course the plane was like a 5 ton truck...didnt turn at all and had less climbrate than a goon.
The rest of the A-8 series had much less armor...but still MUCH more than A-5.
BTW, overheating problems were finally controlled in A-2.
Anyway I disagree about the one-ping-ded...but I disagree MUCH more about 20mm rounds hitting from 1200 yds!
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RAM - heavier is better for ballistics. For a given size and shape of projectile, the heavier one will fly farther and drop less.
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Cc...I understand that...but what about bigger?...bigger means more drag, and more dispersion, I believe. am I right?
(is an interesting matter, BTW)
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I've beed killed more that 10 times this way ,and I've suffered serious damage a lot of times, also from extreme ranges...
Dunno, Ram, I've never been killed at a range beyond 1k, and I've flown this sim a lot. Pings? Yes. Damage? Very seldom. Kill? Never.
Gordo
FDB (http://fdb.50megs.com)
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Little comment:
1) First ping was at 1.2k, second around 1k.
2) That is usual practise of forcing pilot to turn pinging him at maximum ranges. I have about 11% of accuracy in dogfights, that mean, I usually do not really opens up closer than at 300-400D, esp. when flying spit with its limmited ammo. But few tracers of mgs (or cannons on hog) is ok, sometime it works.
3) One very important comment: you did not blowed up. It was not an explosion. You just desappeared, same way it was in beta. So, that makes me to assume 2 possible reasons:
a) pilot death is modeled, and you were killed by one of the rounds. Not very possible, but it is what can happen and I am sure happened in the reality.
b)some kind of AH bug or network problem.
Hope, that will help.
Fariz
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Originally posted by Pongo:
In real life I doubt it was any more effective than the 151 ...
Why?
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<S> Fariz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...lets see...
1) well on MA you told me range was 1.2K...1K is a bit less and then hit was a little more probable (but still VERY hard)...I still say that 1K hits must be less frequent.
2)CC that and thats why I was only in a VERY shallow turn to left, I couldnt accept any hard evasives because I had a lot of hungry red cons on my six, If I'd lost speed I'd had been ded. But the shallow bank and turn would've been enough...I see it wasnt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
3) I think it must be a pilot death. I know it is modelled ,and I have no problems with that. I thought the plane exploded, but If it didnt then was a pilot death. Then everything I said about armor is useless (a 20mm exploding hit on cockpit kills an elephant).
<S> again, I know you are a hot-shot...but, still so many 1K yard deaths on MA...man...I cant believe in that...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-27-2000).]
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I'd blame the icons and range indicators rather than the ballistics.
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Originally posted by RAM:
1) well on MA you told me range was 1.2K...1K is a bit less and then hit was a little more probable (but still VERY hard)...I still say that 1K hits must be less frequent.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-27-2000).]
Well, sorry for incomplete information, but was busy watching around for you friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Still not sure about 1k, may be 1.1k, hard to say without film. I normally remember only distance when I opens up, it was 1.2k, and I remember that I made some pause before the second burst. Anyway, considering, that I had only 2 pings this kill was very unusual, and I understand how you feel about it.
Time to close the thread, IMO.
Fariz
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remove all range indications beyond 500 yards.
shots will be closer in for sure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think of how odd it is people complaining about how unrealistic shots fired at certain specific ranges are when the fact that a sign the size of a billboard is hanging above the target giving the shooter range and aiming and identification and closure information while the target gets peace of mind by being outside a certain indicated range.
no sir I dont like it.
icons fine, range info? no too much information and total lack of mystery hurting gameplay.
long range shots? no problem... they are realistic. but the digital fighter range and e state identification display has to go.
cheers
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"
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F4U-1C guns are the biggets weak link in AH.
Not that its a terribly weak link. Just that the sim is so strong in most other regards.
It might be advisable to revisit the gun model overall in my opinion. I think a shot out to 400-500 yards should be do-able but jeez, I sure have been taking sortie ending pings out past 800 (on my FE) a little too frequently as of late. I see the guy just f&*king flailing away back there and I take a ping and start the slow spiral into darkness.
Maybe the mojority of people are getting the hang of the guns and its time to notch them down just a bit.
More on this later.
Yeager
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I'm with Hristo on this one, the icons and range indicators are the problem.
keep the guns realistic.
I'm rather indifferent to long range shooting effectiveness since i can only hit stuff in close anyways but the icons ... yuck i hate them with a passion.
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"