Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Sikboy on May 16, 2002, 09:42:16 AM
-
I'd like to start by restating the party line:
Thank you HTC for a wonderful product. I love the planes that we have, and I love the planes that we are getting. I have no complaints about FM or the planeset.
OK, with that out of the way... WTF is up with the Spit Modeling!?!?! Just kidding. No, what I was really wondering about was: Mediterranean planeset.
I have very little knowledge of this theater of war, and I was wondering what it would take to really get this done at a minimum. I mean, what do we have that works, what would be nice to get, and what would really make it solid.
I got to thinking about this thanks to the Fairy Swordfish and the rantings of the biplane guy. This got me to thinking about all the anti-shipping operations that took place in the Med. The attack on Toronto Harbor, the Axis resupply of N. Africa. The Battle of and around Malta... Seems like some pretty ripe battles to Explore.
anyhow, not this week, not this year, but in the future, what do you think would be a good Mediterranean setup? It would be helpful if you included three catagories.
1. Minimum (look at our current BoB planeset for guidence)
2. Pretty Cool (at least one plane for each function from each country, with a minimum of substitutions)
3. Badass (Everything you would want, no holds barred)
-Sikboy
-
IMHO, the Med theatre is one of the most interesting of the whole war. I mean: the whole 1940-43 North African air war, the air battle over Malta, the air attacks against supply convoys (from Gibraltar and Alexandria to Malta and from Sicily-South Italy to Lybia), the invasion of Sicily. Is it enuff? ;) About the plane set, some initial thoughts:
Spitfire I-II-V (we have, even if the real ones had Vokes filter and were quite a bit slower)
Spitfire IX (we have)
Hurricane IIC-IID (we have)
Blenheim (we need a light RAF bomber)
P-40 (incoming)
C.202 (we have)
C.200 (we need it)
C.205 (we have)
SM79 (we need it, SUPERFLY!)
109E-4 (we have)
109F-4 (we have)
109G-2 (we have)
109G-6 (we have)
110-C4 (we have)
Ju87 (we need it!)
Ju88 (we have)
B-25 (we can use the B-26)
P-38 (we need earlier variants)
P-47 (we need earlier variants)
P-51 (we have it)
B-17 (we need earlier variants)
Our planeset is not so bad after all ... ;)
-
p51a
a36
wellington
-
The SM 79 is not what we nead, I realy do not get why eveybody seams to want it, the Cant Z 1007 was a WAY better buff and in service during the whole time the Italians were at war in WW2 It would be a great adation, why pick a bomber that is less survivable and has less of a bombload?
We nead a CR 42 bellybutton well, and a MC 200, and a Re 2000 series plane or too:)
-
Fairey Swordfish is missing from list...
"When British naval intelligence determined that a large number of Italian warships lay at anchor in Taranto harbor in November 1940, an attack was organized, to be carried out by 21 single-engine carrier-based biplanes. The operation was a huge success -- three battleships were severely damaged, a cruiser and two destroyers were hit, and two other vessels were sunk. In the space of one hour the balance of naval power in the Mediterranean had been altered forever."
And Me 323 would be cool transport plane to LW :D
-
Originally posted by Sikboy
I got to thinking about this thanks to the Fairy Swordfish and the rantings of the biplane guy.
-Sikboy itutions)
Biplane guy? Who might that be :D ?
...oh yeah almost forgot, add Fairey Swordfish and Gladiator :D
-
An interesting note on the Swordfish...
It seems to me that the success enjoyed by the Swordfish relied heavily on their being the only Aircraft around. I know that they were unopposed during the Bizmarck fight, does anyone know if there was any fighter opposition during Taranto? I have a feeling that the Swordfish might get blown out in AH, since there isn't much opportunity for surprise attacks. It's very nice to see that our current planeset is fairly well stocked though :)
-Sikboy
-
The Boston (don't forget it, its the level bombing version of the A20G we're getting) was I believe used quite a bit in the Med, and fills the same role as the Blenheim.
-
Originally posted by gatt
Blenheim (we need a light RAF bomber)
// naughty mode on
I though the Typhoon was well suited for this role G,D,R ;) :D
-
No Straffo :p your mistaken
It wasn't the Blenheim, it was the Beaufighter ;)
-
In Francis Mason's book about Hurricane is a funny story of He-111 destroying dozen British fighters on their rear base in Africa. After 10,5 hours flight while heading back to home from bomb raid they had to land in the desert 'cause lack of fuel.
Week later Ju-52 brought some gas to them so plane could be saved :D
-
a. No P-51A in Afrika (afaik)
b. The P-39 was used heavily.
c. Beaufighter.
d. STUKA! ;)
e. HS-129 ground attack
f. DO-17
Westy
-
Brady... does that CANT carry torps?
SM79 carried 2 i believe... would give it multiple roles
SKurj
-
Originally posted by Sikboy
An interesting note on the Swordfish...
It seems to me that the success enjoyed by the Swordfish relied heavily on their being the only Aircraft around. I know that they were unopposed during the Bizmarck fight, does anyone know if there was any fighter opposition during Taranto? I have a feeling that the Swordfish might get blown out in AH, since there isn't much opportunity for surprise attacks. It's very nice to see that our current planeset is fairly well stocked though :)
-Sikboy
...I can see your point, but thats why they gotta add Sea Gladiator to fly escourt :D
PS QUOTE:I got to thinking about this thanks to the Fairy Swordfish and the rantings of the biplane guy.
I didnt think I was "ranting" but I cant help it... I've been waiting long time for htc to add them :D I know we'll prolly get a few sooner or later I just cant wait! Maybe the val will hold me untill we get an hs-123 or Swordfish:)
-
Originally posted by Sikboy
An interesting note on the Swordfish...
It seems to me that the success enjoyed by the Swordfish relied heavily on their being the only Aircraft around. I know that they were unopposed during the Bizmarck fight, does anyone know if there was any fighter opposition during Taranto? I have a feeling that the Swordfish might get blown out in AH, since there isn't much opportunity for surprise attacks. It's very nice to see that our current planeset is fairly well stocked though :)
-Sikboy
Swordfish earned magnific reputation because it was a stable and capable plane able to fly in the most adverse conditions imaginable. However, as a torpedo bomber against credible opposition, it stood no chance.
The highlights of the Fairey Swordfishes were.....
1- torpedoing of the "bismarck"... happened because
a) swordfishes flew off the Victorious and Ark Royal in the worse of the sea states...which says quite a lot about their ability as carrier planes
b) Bismarck had no air cover.
c) 50% of bismarck 4.1in AA was misguided by a POS fire director ;)
2- The Taranto attack...that success happened because
a) was a night ,unexpected raid. No oposition met from enemy aircraft
b) Italian Plugliese TDS (torpedo defence system) was full of toejam, one 18' torpedo being able to make severe damage to 35k ton ships.
THose were hte highlights on the Swordfish career, but you must note there was no air opposition at all during those actions... The first time the Swordfishes had to attack a target covered by enemy air oposition (Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen, during the channel Dash in February 1942), they were butchered and wiped out of the skies, plain and simple.
In fact the Swordfish was way more important during WWII as CVE planes than what they were in those two actions. They gave a magnific service against U-boats on the battle of the Atlantic, being able to fly off the tiny carrier's decks on the most extreme circunstances.
But they were dogmeat for enemy fighters, plain and simple.
-
a36a and p51a were in the med westy.
Although the RAF had been using Mustangs in combat since the spring of 1942, the USAAF didn't get the type into action until March 1943, after the invasion of North Africa. 35 of the "F-6A" P-51s arrived in that month, and were used in the following months for tactical reconnaissance on German positions in Tunisia during the final drive on the Afrika Korps.
In the meantime, A-36As were pouring into North Africa by the hundreds, with a total of over 300 in action by May. On 7 June, the USAAF performed its first combat attack with the Mustang, performing attacks on the Mediterranean island of Pantelleria.
The A-36As participated in the successful invasion of Sicily in July 1943, and then, having been joined by P-51As, moved to that island to support the landings on the Italian mainland at Salerno in September 1943.
The combat record of the A-36A as a dive bomber is a bit obscure. Some sources claim that the aircraft was much too "slick" and fast to be a good dive bomber, and in fact there were a few fatal accidents during stateside training when structural failures occurred during dive attacks. There were also reports that the dive brakes didn't deploy evenly, making the aircraft more difficult to control in a dive. Stories that the dive brakes were often wired shut, however, appear to be untrue. Problems with the dive brakes were quickly corrected in any case, and some USAAF reports indicate that the A-36A was highly accurate as a dive bomber.
The matter is mostly academic, because it is entirely clear that the A-36A, as well as the P-51A, gave fine service as an attack aircraft during the Sicilian and Italian campaigns, for example operating at Salerno, flying off beachhead air strips while under enemy fire.
I have more references if this quote isnt enough :)
-
btw a26 p51a would be useful in CBI
* In the meantime, the A-36A and P-51A were demonstrating similar virtues at the other end of the Eurasian land mass. A USAAF Mustang fighter-bomber bomber group arrived in India by way of Australia in the late summer of 1943, where it performed attack, reconnaissance, and air combat duties in the China-Burma-India (CBI) theatre.
-
We also need a Bf109E7
-
definately :)
-
Brady we need a Fiat G.55 Centauro, "Regarded by many as the best Italian fighter of the war". It had:
x2 13mm
x3 20mm
In some versions:
x5 20mm!
Or reduced armament and on torpedo
It was like the 262, it was very late in the war but it did see service. I want to have this plane so bad
-
Originally posted by Vermillion
No Straffo :p your mistaken
It wasn't the Blenheim, it was the Beaufighter ;)
Oups :D
it doesn't matter AK was really fun indeed :)
-
The Taranto attack was at night ("War in a Stringbag" by Charles Lamb [a lot of bookstores stash it in the WWI section {probably because they see a biplane on the cover}]excellent book) and before the axis had real night fighters, so no fighter opposition.
i think the case of the Gloster Gladiator is pretty strong:
"From the 11th June 1940, the day after Italy's declaration of war, the island of Malta was put into a state of siege. Its strategic position was such that it dominated the Axis supply lines to the Middle East. Malta's fighter defence consisted of three Gloster Gladiator biplanes, the now famous 'Faith', 'Hope' and 'Charity'. They put up a spirited showing against the early Italian bombing raids."
-
Originally posted by whgates3
The Taranto attack was at night ("War in a Stringbag" by Charles Lamb [a lot of bookstores stash it in the WWI section {probably because they see a biplane on the cover}]excellent book) and before the axis had real night fighters, so no fighter opposition.
i think the case of the Gloster Gladiator is pretty strong:
"From the 11th June 1940, the day after Italy's declaration of war, the island of Malta was put into a state of siege. Its strategic position was such that it dominated the Axis supply lines to the Middle East. Malta's fighter defence consisted of three Gloster Gladiator biplanes, the now famous 'Faith', 'Hope' and 'Charity'. They put up a spirited showing against the early Italian bombing raids."
I have heard that story before... But I've also heard there were 3-4 more Sea Gladiators involved that helped defend malta... weather thats tru or not I dont know... But we need The Gladiator! It was 1 of the most manuverable planes of the war, Imagine a plane that can out roll, out turn, and out manuver in general an A6m!... Now they may be able to outrun you but there is no way anyone could stay on your tail for over 5 seconds... The only way to kill em would be to BnZ, but even using BnZ the biplane pilot could easily avoid the attacker.
The Gloster Gladiator played a very important roll and cannot be left out :D I think HTC is getting around to them eventuelly... My guess is after they get the early Pacific Planeset done they will start working on early European planeset... which would mean at least 1-3 Biplanes!
I would also like to see stuka and buefighter (not sure if i spelled "buefighter" right) but biplanes of more need right now IMO.
-
Italian Airforce in WW2 (http://www.wargame.com/articles/wwtwo/iaf/index.html)
FIRST RAID ON MALTA
So, the Regia Aeronautida's first raid was in fact against Malta. On 11th June at 4.35 a.m. the first aircraft of the 2nd Squadra Aerea based in Sicily took off, a Savoia-Marchetti S.79 piloted by the Commander of the 34th Stormo B.T. based in Catania, Col. Umberto Mazzini. It was followed by another nine aircraft of the same unit and by another fifteen of the 11th Stormo, having taken off from Comiso. It was then the turn of ten S.79s of the 41st Stormo, which took off from the airfield of Gela. The escort was provided by Macchi C.200s of the 6th Gruppo Autonomo C.T. based in Catania.
The 34th Stormo attacked Hal Far airfield from an altitude of 4,700 metres, the 11th Stormo the Burmola military arsenal from 5,200 metres, and the 41st Stormo the seaplane depot at Kalafrana from 5,000 metres. Twenty-five tons of bombs fell on the island in a few minutes. The only aircraft to be shot at during this first raid was an S.79 of the 52nd Gruppo of the 34th Stormo, which was slightly damaged by a Gloster Gladiator.
At 6.30 p.m. on the same day five S.79s of the 36th Stormo, based at Castelvetrano, bombed the Grand Harbour of Valletta, while Kalafrana, Burmola and Hal Far were again attacked by the same units that had operated in the morning. By the end of the day seven raids had been made by the bombers on Malta, in which no Italian planes were shot down.
The attacks continued on 13th June, being limited though to only six S.79s during the whole day. During a raid on 16th June the C.200s of the 6th Gruppo claimed to have shot down a Gladiator, which does not appear in official British reports; the discrepancy between the number of claims and actual victories will prove in the course of the whole war, both on the part of the Regia Aeronautica and of the R.A.F., to be rather considerable.
The first night raid on Malta was carried out on 20th June by six S.79s of the 34th Stormo which dropped forty-two 100-kg. bombs on Burmola; while the first Italian loss occurred during the afternoon of 22nd June when a lone S.79 (MM.22O68) of the 216th Squadriglia of the 34th Stormo, piloted by Ten. Francesco Solimena and on a reconnaissance mission, was shot down by two Gladiators. The Italians encountered Hurricanes for the first time over Malta on 30th June, just when the Macchi C.200s were being removed from the front-line to undergo modification to their wings. So for more than two months the Italian fighters operating over Malta were to be the inadequate CR.42s, which appeared over the island for the first time on 2nd July when aircraft of the 9th Gruppo of the 4th Stormo C.T., arriving in Sicily from Venetia, escorted two S.79s on a reconnaissance mission. Two days later twenty-four CR.42s strafed Hal Far.
Meanwhile the port of Alexandria, the base of Britain's Mediterranean Fleet, was also bombed by the obsolete Savoia-Marchetti S.81s of the 39th Stormo B.T. based at Maritza in Rhodes. Their first raid, by twelve aircraft, was made on the night of 22nd June. In the next attack, on the night of 7th July, Alexandria was bombed by the S.81s of the 222nd and 223rd Squadriglie of the 56th Gruppo, 39th Stormo; one S.81 was shot down by anti-aircraft fire. Further night raids were made on 16th and 25th July, 26th August, 8th and 21st September and 5th October by formations of five to twelve aircraft per action. During this cycle three S.81s were lost. On 28th August eight S.81s, again from the 39th Stormo, bombed Port Said at the enterance to the Suez Canal.
Alexandria was also attacked by the S.79s of the 34th Gruppo of the 11th Stormo B.T., which on 28th June had moved from Comiso in Sicily to Gadurra in Rhodes; they carried out raids on 4th and 25th July and 5th October. In August and September it was the turn of S.79s based in Libya to carry out night raids on Alexandria. The oil refineries at Haifa in Palestine were also attacked; the first bombing was on 15th July, undertaken by ten S.79s of the 41st Gruppo of the 12th Stormo B.T., which dropped 5 tons of bombs. Other attacks took place on 24th July and 6th and 27th August, after which the raids were suspended due to a fuel shortage. On 1st November targets in Suda Bay, Crete, were bombed by fourteen S.79s.
[/i]
-
ATTACKS AT SEA
Meanwhile at sea attacks on British ships began on 17th June when six S.79s of the 11th Stormo bombed a cruiser south-west of Malta, without result. On 8th July seventy-two Italian bombers attacked the Mediterranean Fleet as it was steaming to protect a convoy from Malta to Alaxandria; one 250-kg bomb dropped from an S.81 of the 221st Squadriglia of the 92nd Gruppo, 32nd Stormo B.T., hit the cruiser H.M.S. Gloucester.
The next day, after the Action off Calabria, the first engagement between the Italian and British Fleets, there were repeated attacks on British ships by thirty-five S.81s, eighty-two S.79s and nine Cant Z.506s. Meanwhile eighteen S.79s of the 32nd Stormo and twenty-two of the 8th had taken off from Sardinia and attacked the Royal Navy's Force "H" from Gibraltar, sighted south of the Balearic Islands; the Italian pilots were luckier this time and claimed to have damaged the battlecruiser H.M.S. Hood, the aircraft-carrier H.M.S. Ark Royal and two destroyers. Another destroyer, H.M.S. Escort, also damaged by aircraft, was sunk by an Italian submarine on her way back to Gibraltar.
Two days later eighty-three S.79s of the 30th, 34th, 36th, and 41st Stormi, based in Sicily, attacked the Mediterranean Fleet again. After that it was the turn of the S.79s from Libya with twenty-four aircraft, followed by 112 bombers the next day, 12th July, when the aircraft-carrier H.M.S. Eagle was hit. The bombing of the convoy ended the following day with an attack by twenty-two S.79s.
At the end of the battle, apart from the usual controversies regarding damage inflicted to the ships and aircraft shot down, the Regia Aeronautica had to assess the disappointing results obtained by high-level bombing, particularly in view of the large forces employed. It concluded that attacks against ships, especially when they were under way, would have to be taken over by torpedo-bombers and dive-bombers.
The first loss to be officially admitted by the R.A.F. on Malta occurred on 16th July. That morning fourteen CR.42s of the 23rd Gruppo on offensive patrol were attacked suddenly by two Hurricanes, one of which, piloted by F/Lt. P.G. Kleebe, was shot down by Ten.(Lt.) Mario Pinna and by S.Ten.(Sub-Lt) Oscar Abello. The Italians lost the CR.42 piloted by Ten. Mario Benedetti of the 74th Squadriglia.
Early in September the Regia Aeronautica began operations with Junkers Ju 87s. On 21st August the first nine aircraft of this type had replaced twin-engined single-seat Savoia-Marchetti S.85 dive-bombers in the 96th Gruppo Autonomo B.a T. at Comiso; the latter were withdrawn from service because of defects that rendered them dangerous in combat. Of the 155 Ju 87s that were given by the Luftwaffe to the Italian Air Force during the war, fifty were of the B-2 version, fifty-nine of the R-2 and forty-six of the D-2 and D-3.
On 29th August the Cant Z.1007bis made its appearance on the Mediterranean stage and was to become the standard medium bomber of the Regia Aeronautica as the S.79s were reallocated to torpedo-bomber units. Cant Z.1007 bis of the 41st Gruppo of the 12th Stormo B.T., based at Gadurra in Rhodes, bombed the port of Haifa on 6th, 8th, 21st, 26th and 29th September. During the last raid one of the ten Z.1007bis of the 204th Squadriglia that took part in the action, piloted by Cap. Castellani, was hit by fighters and forced to land near Damascus. On 9th September six Cant Z.1007bis bombed the harbour of Tel Aviv, losing one aircraft that was forced to make an emergency landing in Turkey.
As well as raids against British targets in the eastern basin of the Mediterranean, mounted from various Italian airfields on the Aegean islands, the Italian Air Force also attacked Gibraltar. At 3.40 a.m. on 18th July Gibraltar was bombed from 3,500 metres by three Savoia-Marchetti S.82s coming from Guidonia near Rome with 2,000kg. of bombs; the British base was lit up and the defences were taken completely by surprise, the anti-aircraft fire was weak and started late. The three S.82s made a second raid on 25th July, this time taking off from Alghero in Sardinia. Yet another attack was made by two S.79s of the 32nd Stormo B.T. during the night of the 20th August, coming in singly an hour apart; the first aircraft, Magg. (Major) G. B. Luccini's was shot down by anti-aircraft fire.
[/i]
-
:)