Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: eskimo2 on May 18, 2002, 08:47:34 PM
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I love statistics!
It's especially fun to look at the stats with only 3 armed planes per side. Since we were reliving an air war, I only looked at air-to-air stats.
LW air-to-air losses: 949
RAF air-to-air losses: 1174
Giving the LW a K/D of 1.24
and the RAF a K/D of 0.81
Individual aircraft actual kills and losses against fighters, Fighter K/D and Overall K/D against aircraft (Best to Worse Overall):
109e - 572 fighter kills, 498 fighter losses =Vs. fighter K/D of 1.15 Overall K/D 1.3
110c - 306 fighter kills, 295 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 1.04 Overall K/D 1.19
Hurri1 - 281 fighter kills, 258 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 1.09 Overall K/D 1.1
JU-88 - 80 fighter kills, 80 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 1.0 Overall K/D 1.06
Spit1 - 577 fighter kills, 683 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 0.84 Overall K/D 0.84
TBM - 54 fighter kills, 166 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 0.33 Overall K/D 0.36
I flew LW only during this week, so my view is clearly one-sided. But I am also very surprised by the results. I expected the Spit to come out on top, and the Hurri to end up on bottom. How the Hurricane did so well, I can't imagine. In either the 109 or 110, I fear Spitfires! I figure that if I don't kill them in the first pass or two, I'm in deep doo-doo. The Hurricane, on the other hand, makes me salivate. It's easy to control the fight when your opponent's plane is 40 MPH slower than yours. After checking my personal stats, however, I see that I have underestimated the Hurri. I did far better against the Spit... Hmm?
The 110 also statistically did better than I would have guessed. Taking into account that 110s probably were used during this week as a jabo platform much more than the 109, they faired pretty well. I know that I lost a lot of them to de-acking duty and I also made myself venerable to enemy fighters while on base attack. Other than having the best armament in the set-up, the 110 is a bit of a turd. It turns poorly and the Spit can easily run it down.
I think the JU-88 out performed the TBM because it was only attacked by rifle caliber mg armed fighters and is relatively tough. The TBM, however, had to put up with 20mm cannon. I did expect the TBM to do better statistically.
eskimo
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Thanks for doing that job for me, Eskimo;). I got so busy I forgot to generate the Stats for BoB. The other tale told here is how balanced this set up is. Thanks for everyone's participation...I had a blast!
Sabre
CT Staff
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Just confirms what those of us who flew both sides were saying, the spit was totally outclassed v 109.
I mean look at it the ONLY aircraft with a worse kill per death is the TBM !
Yup the spit is only slightly better than that big fat slow slug of a TBM bomber.
Guess thats very realistic then and as long as you set up the arena and only fly LW then you can expect to have a rosy view of it and call it a well balanced setup ;)
Anyway i enjoyed it until i realised how much of an advantage the 109s had at which point I went back to the MA.
I am not surprised at the results it was easy to spot if you flew both sides.
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214th,
I was not trying to make any kind of a point here, just observations.
Further, I am not a CM and did not set this up. (I don't like being "forced" to fly for a particular side). Some weeks, I fly both sides, hopping to the lower numbered side. Other weeks I stay on one side.
Sabre, however, is a CM and set up this week's arena.
Add up Sabre's kills + deaths while flying for the RAF and you get 46. For the LW, it's 3. Clearly he set things so that he could beat up on everyone in his Spit-1! LOL
eskimo
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The Spit had a different purpose in the BOB TOD. Kill bombers, not to engage fighters. Me109's purpose was to kill fighters. If it was strictly fighter against fighter the ratios would of been different.
IMHO
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Eskimo i posted only observations from my point of view, but it does not mean they are right or wrong, its just the way it seemed sitting in my chair.
Your post about Sabres kills could mean just one thing he cant fly LW ;)
And i believe if you put experienced pilots in them that the 109 would kick spit1a butt all day long.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Eskimo i posted only observations from my point of view, but it does not mean they are right or wrong, its just the way it seemed sitting in my chair.
Your post about Sabres kills could mean just one thing he cant fly LW ;)
And i believe if you put experienced pilots in them that the 109 would kick spit1a butt all day long.
Maybe inexeperieced pilots flew mostly Spits ? or by people not familar with the Spit ?
Just saying.
Jordi
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it was most of the spits i killed were not do to any great advantage of the 109s but because of mistakes made on behalf of the spit pilot.
The hurri is outclassed by the 109 imho pretty easily.
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JU-88A-4 was the only viable sub for the Heinkle 111, and early Ju-88's. It is very fast comparitively and was a hard target for those 303 armed birds. Very frustrating for me, so I didnt fly there much.
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214th,
I know Sabre very well. He flies both the Spit and 109 regularly and can put up as good of a fight in a 109 as he can in any plane. I fear him more in a 109 than in a Spit, and I have fought him in both planes many times. He's been flying the 109 since AH was in Beta.
Sabre and other CMs often feel obligated to fly for the underdogs.
Your opinions on aircraft qualities are valid.
Sugesting that CMs intentionally set up arenas with imballance so that they can wreck havoc or for any personal advantage, however, is unfair and inappropriate.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Wotan
it was most of the spits i killed were not do to any great advantage of the 109s but because of mistakes made on behalf of the spit pilot.
The hurri is outclassed by the 109 imho pretty easily.
Wotan,
I agree.
Why did the Hurri do so well statistically (last week)?
Does anyone have an idea?
eskimo
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the hurri is a good plane. but simple performance wise the 109 has the advantage. But put someone like Asmo in the hurri he kicks arse.
I really dont know but i see more hurris then spits in the last to bobs. Dunno why :confused:
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Well Ammo, the JU88 A4 participated in BoB and even if we got Heinkels it should still be in BoB. The A4 version saw action in BoB and spit pilots described it as "very fast and hard to catch" so pretty realistic IMO.
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Eskimo i think you need to reread my original post with ref to this comment of yours.
"Suggesting that CMs intentionally set up arenas with imballance so that they can wreck havoc or for any personal advantage, however, is unfair and inappropriate"
This is from my post,
"Guess thats very realistic then and as long as you set up the arena and only fly LW then you can expect to have a rosy view of it and call it a well balanced setup ;) "
That was actually the result of a conversation in the CT but i cannot remember who was speaking at the time.
But they said they were a CM but only ever flew LW now my senile mind may have mistakenly assumed they were the CM for this setup, hey shoot me.
Referring to that same sentence my point is it is realistic for the 109 to outperform the spit1a meaning of course that the spits better turning ability dont mean bugger all when all the 109 has to do is crawl all over it from above set it up and kill.
You may also note that sentence ended with a Winking smiley ;)
in my book that says hey dont take this too seriously.
But i still fail to see how you interpreted any of that as saying
"that CMs intentionally set up arenas with imballance so that they can wreck havoc or for any personal advantage"
I notice Ammo says he was frustrated and left the CT as well so I was not the only one finding it not to my taste.
While I was in the CT i never saw a JU88 so did not have the chance to try and catch one, but whilst flying 109's I started a 1v1 with a spit another joined in making it 2 v 1 then a third joined in so 3 spits v a 109, 1 spit augered the other 2 were shot down and i safely rtb.
I never lost a 109.
However fly a spit1a and you could not buy a kill of a 109 unless of course they had brain fade and made an horrendous mistake.
So no fun getting your bellybutton handed to you in spits and for me no fun beating up on spits that were hopelessly outclassed, so i departed the CT, but thats again only my view and may or may not be valid.
I do appreciate what you guys are doing for the CT and try them out but so far for me none has got anywhere near the Tunisia setup for outright fun, balance and just having an all round good time.
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i cant see how the ju88 was a problem i rarely saw one.
80 kills vrs 80 deaths speaks volumes. in the 1st bob i flew spits and hurris some and went 4 v 1 vrs ju88s. Vulcan killed when i got stupid. I saw him lose parts so instead of re positioning for a better pass. i drifted into his 6 and died.
They certainly werent hard to kill.
And they were in bob i did a search for performance differences in the a1 and a4 and at highest was a 16mph difference and lowest was 9 mph. But in the bob the raf had much greater success vrs heinkels and do17s.
My experience fighting spits in the ct was the guys i fought flew umm lioke a spit V. the standard move was pull stick to belly and enter a tight flat turn. Well a 109e aint a g6. with a bit of vert and a notch of flaps i could easily pull lead and kill them.
Spit1s zoomed and dived well. They held speed out of the dive. i dont think there was that much of a disparity between the planesets as some make out. Also pilot experience and time in plane makes much more a difference then plane a vrs plane b.
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Just my POV. I have enjoyed alot of the setups you guys have ran.
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not directed at you ammo :)
just i have heard that alot but imho and limited experience has been different.
Of course if heinkels and do 17 and stukas were in the last bob set up more then likely the raf would have whooped arse.
I for one think with out the other planes the raf is facing some of the best german ac ju88a4 and 110c4b (db601n) while being limited to mk1s gave the advantage to the lw. That and the fuel mod at 1.5. In tod i believe the fuel mod is higher.
But then again a higher fuel mod would have put more lw in 110s and 88s so damned if ya do damned if ya dont :)
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I don't quite agree with Ammo although I think it would have been better with Heinkel 111 and DO17 and then have the Ju88 A4 as a perk for it did see action during BoB, not as much as those other 2 though. It was a very fast and good bomber and definatly have it's place in a BoB setup.
At the time I think all the RAF had were Mk1's, maybe Spitfire MkII.
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214,
I'm just a little defensive of our CMs and mapmakers. They work hard for no pay and are often abused verbally. I don't want to see any more of them quit. The CT is where I live and I will always be the first to stick up for our CMs or mapmakers. I probably over-reacted to your statement.
eskimo
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Was a great setup no matter what and I sure hope we get it back SOON! Please :)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Was a great setup no matter what and I sure hope we get it back SOON! Please :)
Agreed.
I'm wondering how come my own experience was so different. I think I got to fly RAF only once, because the Luftwaffe was the short side every other time I entered the arena. I would have expected to find the reverse if the Emil was so dominant.
Frankly, from a simple enjoyment perspective, I would much rather fly a hurri or a spit than the Emil. So I would appreciate if the next time we see this setup, all you folks joined the National Socialist side so that I could do so.
- oldman
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1 on 1 a hurri will always take a 109, cause the 109 pilot cant resist it. At least when a reasonable pilot is in the hurri.
in the last bob I had 9 kills of 109es, 8 of those while flying the hurri 1. I was killed in the hurri by a 109 3 times.
As long as the 109 wants to come down and play, the hurries better turning ability will get him (within the pilots skill).
The spit behaves terribly. Only frustration there.
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Hurris are a piece of cake IMO, their ability to turn only makes em slightly more difficulkt to get a good B&Z shot at, but they die.
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The reason the stats are stacked against the Spit1 in the Spit1 v 109E is me!
I am a terrible fighter pilot, lol. If I had flew the Hurri at all the stats against the Hurri would have been just as bad.
I accept full responsibility for this...
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Originally posted by Wotan
the hurri is a good plane. but simple performance wise the 109 has the advantage. But put someone like Asmo in the hurri he kicks arse.
I really dont know but i see more hurris then spits in the last to bobs. Dunno why :confused:
statistically, the HURRI flew more sorties than the spit did. The Spit had a longer flight time than the Hurri did.
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stats really dont tell the full story.Although thnx eskimo for doing this :) I like them but i dont try to read too much into them or make statements about aircraft based on them.
for a start if you take a total newbie and stuck him on the raf side he would 9 times out of 10 choose the spit1a, for the sole reason its 'perceived' to be the better aircraft by most.
this means that many spit losses are with inexperienced pilots.True they may then go on to try the hurricane but the point is that these stats dont tell the full story.
I think there is no doubt that if i flew 10 sorties in each aircraft (109,hurri,spit) I would do best in the 109e (because im used to it) then i the spit 1a (because it is undoubtedly more capable than the hurri imo) then the hurri.
As to dogfighting in these aircraft the spit is the better aircraft but in the 109 you dont dogfight so much as e fight so it comes out on top if you fly it within its strengths.
if you start turning with spits or hurricanes you will eventually lose no doubt about it.
to claim the 109 is the better aircraft but not to stress what reasons but just to claim its all one sided is totally out of order imo.If you fly the spit the way it NEEDS to be flown you will have no more trouble than any other plane.
for instance put a pilot whos used to 109s in a spit and he will do all the wrong things if he flies it the same and its the same the other way around.The skill is knowing when and where to use certain tactics.
its sad to see people claiming the BOB setup is not equal when I would say its THE most equal setup ive ever participated in.(flying for both sides)
if you want uneven then look no further than the present PAC setup! now thats uneven :)
if you fly for RAF in BOB drag the fight low and you will soon gain advantage. if you are allowing 109s to gain your 6 oc then you are doing something wrong.
what i often see is spit players avoiding the 109's 6oc attack only to take the very first HO shot they can take.This is where they have made the biggest mistake! it only takes a little more effort to turn the HO oppertunity into a spit on 109 6 oc attack but impatience often spoils their chances.The spit can catch the 109 as soon as it has lost even a little of its speed from a diving attack but often they are outgunned in the ho they always seem to try instead of taking a few more turns and easily chasing down the now slower 109s who have attempted turning fights.
please dont bad mouth the setup for BOB. I think its the best AH has to offer myself.
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Nice assesment Hazed.
Thanks.
eskimo
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With the amount of crying that I heard in my headphones, it seemed pretty even to me :) I think in the long run the planes were so close that it was pilot skill that mattered (andhaving three squaddies covering your prettythang) ;)