Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: HABICHT on May 19, 2002, 04:23:05 AM
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..on an realistic setting.
lets have the same guns in buffs like in the fighters.
with the formation, they have a chance to survive the run.
i think, no fighter pilot/s will attack a 4buff formation with the
current "ueber" buff gun settings.
HT, pls make them realistic in 1.10
habicht
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Just don't believe HT do you? How many times is he going to have to post it?
General Forums > Gameplay feedback/issues > What is the trick to buff gunnery? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46817&highlight=Tac)
HiTech:
Once again you keep on harping on somthing that you are incorrect on, ive said it multiple times the buf guns are the same as the fighter guns, now get over it, or move on. When some one ask a simple question and you acctualy feel the need to put your own little whinie in the response you are realy damaging to aces high. You will either change this or I will change it for you.
Buff guns have dispersion. Test it with .target
Buff guns lethality is exactly the same as the guns on the fighters.
Buff guns do NOT have a convergance.
[later post/same thread]
Yes and no on the same range, The balistics are identical, but do to drag , the range is farther shooting back then when you shoot forward.
[later post/same thread]
That simply because only the shooter ever sees dispersion stuff.
As for dispersion paterns we have data on real dispersion paterns from each gun of a b17. If anything our paterns are slightly bigger. If you wish to see the paterns take up a b17 off line and use the .target command.
[/b]
So, what part of "ballistics are identical" don't you understand?
:rolleyes:
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This 'buff guns are porked' is getting really old now. How many times do you guys have to be told by HTC himself? or is this just another conspiracy? :rolleyes:
Sometimes I worry about the numbers of posts started (usually by the same small group of people) will maybe influence HTC into making concessiosn their way but unlike other sims I have more faith in HTC not to bow to pressure from the same minority even if they do spit their dummies out and threaten to leave which is often the next step for them.
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Originally posted by Revvin
This 'buff guns are porked' is getting really old now. How many times do you guys have to be told by HTC himself? or is this just another conspiracy? :rolleyes:
Sometimes I worry about the numbers of posts started (usually by the same small group of people) will maybe influence HTC into making concessiosn their way but unlike other sims I have more faith in HTC not to bow to pressure from the same minority even if they do spit their dummies out and threaten to leave which is often the next step for them.
how many post did it take o convince HT group the niki needed checking, till they did and fixed some problems in it.
how many posts did it take before they finally check Chog and found it was light 300 lbs? and fixed it.
how many posts of other suspected problems or errors did it take , till HT and group finally went and rechecked their numbers
they claimed to correct before. and went rechecked and found
them to be incorrect?
some will whine no matter what. some of what u precieve as whines turned out to be correct and got problems/errors
fixed.
but ive yet to see na sayers like u come back when the complaint
was proven correct and say u know Joe was right there was a problem there. good thing he brought it u.
whels
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... and everytime that there was a problem with a plane/gun/whatever, someone posted proof of the problem and what the real plane/gun/whatever was like.
Whels, what if someone were to prove that the guns are right in this case? Do you think a whiner (don't really think Habicht is whining, beating a dead horse - yes, but whining, no) will come here and say "Gee, I guess I was wrong. The guns are fine the way they are."
It works both ways.
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<> -HTC
There's a fix for you.
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I think because there is no convergence that people think they are lazer guns...It's just like the p38 when u use the 4 50cals.It cuts like a lazer too because the bullets don't disperse,if 1 bullet hits they all hit.
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mm porked buff guns sexy :) but seriously i don't think the guns need to be changed. what should be done is changing tactics when attacking buffs. i find attacking head on is great when you can manage to do that. also that flying alongside then turning in and spraying the side works very well coz it's very hard to track a fighter doing that. what else ah yes diving from above or zoom climbing from below. in otherwords never attack a buff from the rear :)
now for the part that i think needs to be fixed. the buffs at high alt outperform the fighters!! from what i've heard the operational alts were in the mid to high 20k ft range sooo we all know fighters engaged them at these alts and i doubt very much from what i've read seen and heard that they'd outperform any fighter.
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I understand their is no convergence on the gun sets themselves... but I'm just wondering how the different gun banks in a buff align themselves. IE, if I'm firing from a waist gun, and the tail, and top turret are also firing... at what point does the fire from those three different banks converge? Any of you buff gunners have a handle on how this works?
I think all the perceptions of the buff guns being too strong come from the fact that a single gunner can fire multiple banks of guns all at once. It means that if you get hit with 1 .50, you get hit with a pile of them. Normally, this wouldn't be the case, as you'd only be likely to get winged by one turret/gun at a time. Add to that a lack of vibration\movement from the gunner's perspective, and you can see how even if the .50 cals are modelled exactly right (and I think the .50's in AH are modelled very accurately), the gameplay may not match your idea of how a similar situation should play out.
Lephturn
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Geez habicht, don’t you know you should have been aware of AH ballistics’ by reading 100,000 posts instead of a simple manual that explains these things?
Your frustration might be a combination of things like bad tactics and impatience, which ultimately gets me in Dora steam maker mode vs. buffs, but Wab offers something just as viable imo.
1. Bullet dispersion on the buff guns appears to be correct.
2. Effective range of the buff bullets appear to be correct.
I'm convinced that the problem lies in the unnatural stability of the buff gun sights. I was watching something on the history channel today and they were showing b17 footage. That gunner was jiggling on the end of that .50 like he had hold of a jack-hammer.
Take off in a pony and zoom into the gun sight and fire away. The site picture jiggles all over the place. The buff guns (even turrets)should do no less. Any gun controlled by hand should shake a fair bit more still.
Without the proper vibration, the buff gunner can zoom in at maximum magnification and track a target at 1.5k with butter smooth computer controlled precision. That give him enough advantage that it appear the effective range is too far.
Its not the ballistics. Its the unrealistically stable sight picture.
Not to mention all the guns seem to know exactly what fighter to shoot at and all at the precise same time.
Although I understand HT’s explanation of the ballistics, I find it silly you have impatiently throw out his explanation like someone that doesn’t live on the BBS should know it as gospel Toad.
(Not to mention it does nothing to address the gameplay aspects of the entire situation.)
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Everyone says that "buff" guns are porked. Now I ask:
Are the guns on the Ju88 porked? What about the TBM? IL2? Ki67? The Lanc? I wish people would start defining what plane is porked rather than just "buff".
.end whine
:)
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Well, I buff quite a bit. Looking forward to the new changes. It will change the way we buff, for sure. No more single pilot/bomber. To survive, you are going to have to have a gunner with you.
No more extending 50 feet and tyring for another bomb pass either. We will have to extend further from target after initial pass so we have time to reset Norden.
Lephturn, from what I can see, it appears the current system of buff guns converge at D1000. This means a target within D600 to D800 will all likely hit a wall of 50 cals that hit from wingtip to wingtip. Of course, the guns placements being so close together really does not mean there needed to be a convergence.
The lethality of the gunner in a buff is know cut down siginificantly, as there is no way all 7 guns can be brought to bear on a target. This is where the "lethality" issue has always been. So a lone buff is at a significant risk.
Attacking a B17 from a slightly high dead 6 position will now only have 1 gun hitting him. Now with 4 buffs, it means a greater potential to have about 6 guns on the target, but that is still one less than before.
As someone who files the buffs a lot, I can tell you there are some good buff hunters in here. There are seams you can fly right through and rip a buff apart and never get a ping landed on you.
One thing is for sure, the guns on a buff are only as lethal as the guy that is pulling the trigger. I can atest to that, as I hardly ever get the guy that shoots me down.
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whels> its quite simple post evidence of the gunnery on buffs being porked and they will listen as they have in the past. Yes sometimes there is a problem but how many times do you want HTC to look at this issue and then post that there is nothing wrong before you listen? how many more times does HT himself have to post about it?
Already seen another sim where those who shout the loudest get their way and I don't want it happening here. I guess HTC can never win, players squeak and whine about the effect single bombers andtheir laser nordens have on the arena so HTC give us AI bombers and increase the complexity of the bombsight and reduce the accuracy and players still whine about it. As a CO of a bomber squad I am really looking forward to seeing the new changes.
We've not even seen these new systems in action, don't you think its a bit silly to be complaining before we've even seen them?
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very true i have one kill in a buff in over well i don't know how many sorties i've flown but it's alot more than one that much i know. it's all about the guy/gal behind the guns.
btw that post about buff gun stability is an excellent observation it never occured to me but now that i think about it this is very true. bringing some vibration to the buff guns would be great no more laser sights even if it means messing up my shots even more than they are now :)
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>Already seen another sim where those who shout the loudest
>get their way and I don't want it happening here.
True. And that is certainly not how I would like to see HTC make their decisions. The anti-chog mafia was already far too successful.
However, I have also seen people shout just as loud to keep a flaw or oversight that gives their particular ride a slight advantage. Some will even argue that an obvious flaw should be left in for "game-play". As the CO of a bomber squadron, perhaps your view might be slightly biased one way just as my view is biased the other.
I think there is a difference between "squeaking" and discussing concerns. I think that as long as it is conducted in a respectful and rational manner that it is not only our right as customers, but perhaps even our duty to raise questions about possible flaws or oversights.
I've said before and I'll say agian. I don't think that the buff guns are off by an order of magnitude, but I do think they're off. After discussing the issue with HT and listening carefully to his explaination I believe I was in error when I originally thought the effective range was a bit too far. I now feel its prolly the lack of vibration to the sight when firing that allows the buff gunner to track a target at too high a magnification, and too great a range, too smoothly. The net effect gives the impression that the buff guns have an excession effective range.
I think sight vibration should be added to the buff guns for all the same reasons it was added to the fighters. It should also be added to m-16s, gv pintle guns etc, if for no other reason than consistancy.
I'm sure that this has been more of a matter of not getting around to it yet rather than an oversight. I'm sure its been on their list of eventual "to do's". I can think of no logical reason they should not vibrate if the fighter guns cans the sight to vibrate. Especially when refering to hand controlled mounts.
I just feel that with the impending 4 buff armada, the priority of adding proper vibration to the buff gun sights should be increased. Hopefully that is something that could be looked into while the new terrains are being finished up.
Regards,
Wab
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well said
mr Wabbit
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Yes maybe I am biased but I've never asked for up-rated bomber guns but I have asked a few times for a bombsight system that requires a little skill and time to set up and now we are finally getting it. I never asked for AI bombers either but with the drift and reduced accuracy carpet bombing from a number of buffs will be the only way of taking down targets...as it should be but there are not that many bomber jocks out there to make up sufficient numbers night after night so it looks like this is HT's way of fixing this. I enjoy nursing damaged bombers home as part of my time in the arena's so I don't want to be untouchable.
I'm all for more realism for every part of the sim not just the bombers and I'll listen to anyone making a good point but take a look at the first post in this thread:
i think, no fighter pilot/s will attack a 4buff formation with the
current "ueber" buff gun settings.
HT, pls make them realistic in 1.10
Hardly a constructive argument is it?
I think we should have more faith in HTC and a little more patience. HT, Pyro and the other guys have been around the block more than a few times and know what they are doing. Lets see what v1.10 brings, see exactly how this all pans out when we can see it for ourselves. Show a little patience and give it a fair go and then we can go about asking for things to be tweaked.
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I'm actually looking forward to seeing this played out. I do wonder how a single-gunner in a 4-buff formation will cope. Say you are the gunner in the lead buff yet the trailing buff is attacked. Do you fire at a range of D2.0 which puts the trailing buff auto-guns in range and they fire? If dispersion is modeled, how does this impact the aim then? I'm sure there will be give-and-takes, and I'm interested in seeing how this plays out.
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read the latest announcement it explains alot :)
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the way i read it is that for the most part the 4 buff formation will have to fly pretty straight. No more 75 degree bank turns using rudder while in the gunner position.
this give the fighters a much easier time positioning themselves for a pass.
Damaged buffs will fall out of formation. While in formatoon the pilot/gunner will have to switch gun postions to get a good track. if you attack and make the gunner "jump around" positions then he will be less likely to track you. There will also be an interupter so the guns wont fire through the plane and hopefully killshooter will be in effect as well.
Damaged buffs out of formation will be ez pickings.
The buff gunners have to stable a platform in which to track and aim at in coming fighters. But with 4 b17s it should be pretty easy to get the gunner jumping around to gun positions. Plus the time it takes to line up and drop accurrately makes buffs really vulnerable.
The only concern i have is woith huge formations of buffs causing lag. This was a real problem in big week.
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Originally posted by Kaz
mm porked buff guns sexy :) but seriously i don't think the guns need to be changed. what should be done is changing tactics when attacking buffs. i find attacking head on is great when you can manage to do that. also that flying alongside then turning in and spraying the side works very well coz it's very hard to track a fighter doing that. what else ah yes diving from above or zoom climbing from below. in otherwords never attack a buff from the rear :)
I think Kaz has made an excellent point about the influence of proper tactics for attacking bombers. I have seen many posts on this board explaining the tactics used by german fighters to attack bombers during WW2. I often see most fighters attacking my buff from 6 oclock! of course, this may be due to the urgency to shoot down my plane which is already over their airfield (?).
Maybe we should try and adjust our buff attack tactics first. If there is a prob with the buff guns then it will be more evident.
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Lephturn- I noticed nobody actually answered your question. The answer, as far as I can tell, is that they don't. This is based on my personal testing of the B-17 guns with the .target command, and from Hitechs explanation of how buff guns work. Now, don't get me wrong, I used to swear up and down that the guns in bombers were 10 times stronger than their equivelants mounted on the fighters, I am now 99% sure I was wrong and they were right (they being all the people who said it was the same when I was the one squeaking that they were 'porked').
If you are firing from the waist gun at a target at say 3 OC high, where the top turret can also track it, it actually fires parallel to your waist gun. So if you are aiming 30 degrees up (relative to the horizon) to fire at this bandit, the top turret is also firing 30 degrees up from its position (lets say) 10 feet ahead of you and 5 feet above you. This means there are two seperate streams of bullets leaving your bomber- one from position A (waist gun) and one from position B (top turret) that are actually aiming at different spots. You are aiming at position A (bandit) with the waist gun, the top turret is aiming at position B (some point in space 10 feet in front of the bandit and 5 feet above it).
This 'no convergence' has two seemingly opposite effects on lethality. One one hand, it makes buff guns far less lethal, since there is really never more than one gun shooting AT you, although the other 'slaved' guns ARE shooting in your general direction. This means a 1 second burst from a B-17 isn't NEARLY as destructive as a 1 second burst from say, a P-47. On the OTHER hand, it really fills the sky with lead. This has a positive effect on the lethality. Since every gun has a 'cone' that the bullets end up in (because not every bullet flies in exactly the same path), you end up getting hit by bullets from guns that really weren't aimed at you. For instance, currently the most lethal places to attack a B-17 from are directly head on and directly , uhm.. tail on (12 OC level and 6 OC level, from the B-17s perspective). This is because the top, nose (and tail), and ball turrets are all within 10 feet or so of each-other vertically, and when coming from 12 or 6 OC level there is NO horizontal seperation. So if you are in the nose turret shooting at a target coming straight at you from d1.0 out, the top turret (firing parallel to you) is firing at a point perhaps 5 feet above the bandit, and the ball turret is firing at a point perhaps 5 feet below the bandit. At 1,000 yards, the 'cones of fire' for all 3 guns overlap, meaning you get friggin hammered as the fighter coming in. Same story in the tail attack, except the B-17 has even more time to fire at you.
To try to clarify this using the opposite extreme, lets say you attack from 3 OC level. I'm not sure if the B-17s nose and tail turrets can track far enough over to hit a target coming in at exactly 3 OC, but I'll say they can, just because. Anyway, you are in a B-17 cruising along, when I come tearing in on your 3 OC with my 109. You, being the smart man you are, remember which key it is to switch to the right waist gunner (me being stupid, I always forget and get shot down) and start hammering away at me. Since the nose and tail turret are slaved to you (and the flight engineer fell asleep in his top turret, to make the example simpler), they start firing also. You are aiming right at me, but you miss a little high, so I don't die right away. Since there is no convergence on buff guns (because they fire parallel to you), your nose turret swings 90 degrees to the right and opens fire. It is shooting at a point perhaps 50 feet to the left of my plane (from your view), so it doesn't hit jack, even with the cone of dispersion. Your tail turret swings 90 degrees to the left and opens fire at a point about.. I'm guessing here, lets say 20 feet to the right of my plane (again from your view). It has a decent chance to hit me with a few bullets, depending on how far away I am. So, if you are a really good shot with the waist gun, you might shoot me down. Probably not though, since even though all those guns are firing, they aren't all shooting at ME.
I think the problem is that most people come roaring in right up some B-17s ass, and in that case the guns are firing on parallel tracks that are close enough together they may as well all be aimed at you, and get absolutely drilled and have the typical attitude that since that bomber killed them it must be something wrong with the bomber, not them.
Thats how I see it anyway.
I've found that the best way to attack a B-17 is to use the way the guns fire against it. If you come in from 1 or 11 OC level (or slightly high as I prefer), you are basically making it really tough for the turrets other than the manned one to hit you. Plus it is hard for the guy in the turret to hit you because you are rapidly sliding across his view from left to right as you close, while he remains pretty steady in your sights. If you attack in a dive you can make it even tougher since you are not only sliding rightward on his view, you are diving as well.
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Creamo, Habict has been around the game and this board a long time.
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So have I, so have you.
Enough I note your velocity to post pom pom inspired rebuttals, they simply missed the mark entirely here.
I still can see your pointing out a thread to Hab, a casual browser that may have missed the ballistics’ explanation, but to reiterate your stance after it’s been clearly pointed out it’s a gameplay and Buff gun slewing that fakes a uninformed player into thinking guns are more powerful (a very informative thread) is again, silly.
Maybe he should know better and read more being a here a long time.
I don’t think so, and even more, think he’s being tricked like the rest of us regarding Buff gun effects. The ballistics are thought out and modeled well, it’s the gameplay that was a mystery unless you pour hours into the game.
We simply did not know.
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In a mood to argue about nothing much at all, I see. :)
It isn't "pom pom inspired"... it's merely the "oh, no.. not this stuff again.. and again.. and again.. and again...." factor.
Buff guns have been beat up one side and down the other. There's a certain individual that has made more of it than most. HT pretty clearly explained it to him in that thread.
Perhaps Habict didn't read that one.. or any one of the multiple others where HT has repeated and repeated and repeated himself. Perhaps not.
You might be right about one thing though. Maybe guys with a beef should be made more aware of the search function of the BBS.
Would it please you if I point them to the search function next time? Instead of finding the thread for them, linking it and cut/paste the germane answer to their question?
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Urchin, great post. It makes sense and I see how it works now.
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I do think the buff guns will have to be changed though, at least if I am right about how they work. If all the slaved guns (and I'm assuming that the guns on the other 3 ships in the formation will be slaved to the gunner on the 'primary' ship) fire parallel to where the manned guns are aiming, there are instances where a LOT of that extra firepower is wasted.
For instance, lets say the buffs are in a 'finger four' type formation, and you attack the #4 buff head-on. Since you wont be coming head on at the #1 buff (where the manned gunner is firing), none of the guns on the #4 buff will be shooting anywhere NEAR you- at least not if they fire parallel to the #1 buffs guns.
Another concern I have is with the formation bombers themselves. What exactly happens to them if they 'lose formation'? Do they just dissapear? Do they blow up? Do they just fly straight and level and not shoot at anyone? It will be relatively easy to get kills on the formation buffs if all you have to do is take out an engine on each one and wait till they drop out of formation and blow up or dissapear. It'll be neat though, to finally have formations of bombers flying around instead of the 'lone rangers' we have now.