Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Max on May 19, 2002, 08:36:39 AM
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I'm between a rock and a hard place trying to decide between buying a Cougar vs CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle USB system.
Question 1 : Is the Cougar worth $270? The CH system runs a hair over $200.
Question 2: On a scale of 1 - 10 how hard is it to program the Cougar?
Thanks for the feedback!
DmdMax
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I can't say how it compares to the CH stick/throttle, but the Cougar is absolutely wonderful. It is very precise and definitely appears to be the new high end standard for HOTAS controllers. You might want to go to Cougar World (http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/index.php) and see what it has to offer. The forums probably have some comparisons with the CH stuff as well.
To me, the answers to the questions would be:
1) The Cougar is well worth the $$$. Very durable, precise, and quality engineering and manufacturing.
2) I would say that it is a 8 on the difficulty to program (somewhat difficult, but easy to figure out and do once you figure it out). This is my first TM product, and I am only just now getting into programming it. There are profiles to download if you don't know how to (or too lazy/not enough time). They are also a good way to learn to program it and are good starting points.
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Originally posted by DMax
I'm between a rock and a hard place trying to decide between buying a Cougar vs CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle USB system.
Question 1 : Is the Cougar worth $270? The CH system runs a hair over $200.
No....It's worth twice that much :) The build quality is superb.
I suspect later batches might cost more.
Question 2: On a scale of 1 - 10 how hard is it to program the Cougar?
As easy or as hard as you want. It comes with a suite of very nice software packages to help develop your own profiles. What usually happens is you take the best bits of other peoples profiles and glue them all together.
I will NOT be returning to CH gear!!!
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I have owned and used both setups you are considering. As I see it, the Cougar is superior and worth the extra money (having used Cougar, I likely would have paid 2-3 times as much), although the CH setup is excellent as well. Here are the pros and cons as I see them:
Physical characteristics. The (almost) all-metal construction of the Cougar is unbelievable. The stick and throttle are beautiful and VERY solid. The hat switches on the Cougar, and particularly the "coolie" (i.e., trim) switch have longer throws than the hat switches on the CH gear, making them more precise and easier to use. The Cougar's springs initially seemed too strong for my liking, but that is probably because this is my first Thrustmaster stick. Now that I am getting used to the Cougar, I actually like the force required to move the stick. I think it aids maneuvering precision and detracts from yanking one's plane around and burning energy. Just be aware that if you are used to CH, Saitek, or MS sticks, there will be an adjustment period before you can fly as capably with the Cougar.
The CH gear is made out of industrial-grade plastic and is also very solid. The shapes of the CH and Cougar sticks are quite similar (as you would expect, given their inspiration). The CH stick can be deflected with MUCH less force than the Cougar. Notwithstanding the differences in the two sticks, both afford excellent control. Although I prefer the Cougar, I think that many people that primarily play WWII sims may prefer the lighter throw of the CH stick.
The CH throttle slides forward and back, and the Cougar throttle rotates around a pivot point. I think that both configurations work fine, but I prefer the rotating throttle to the sliding one. Also, the buttons and hats on the CH throttle appear to be a custom design, while the Cougar throttle is modeled after the F-16 throttle. Both the Cougar and the CH throttle offer mini-joysticks, but the Cougar provides two additional analog axes in the form of rotary dials (similar to those found on the Saitek X36/X45 throttle). The CH throttle, on the other hand, offers additional hat switches and buttons on its throttle.
Both HOTAS set-ups allow three different configurations in which keypresses can be assigned different meanings. One nice feature of the CH stick is that the current "mode" is indicated by an LED. The Cougar has no such feature (for, one assumes, reasons of modeling accuracy).
Programming. Both setups come with software that automates, to some degree, the process of programming the HOTAS. The CH control manager software is probably easier to use, but the programming flexibility offered by Cougar is unparalled. I love to code, so the Cougar's programming flexibility was enough to sell me on the unit. Here are a few of the cool things you can do with the Cougar:
1. Use logical variables. This is a feature that is tremendously powerful and will allow you to do things that you simply cannot do with the CH HOTAS.
2. Program axes digitally. Although you can do this with the CH software, Cougar allows you to program the axes digitally while retaining their analog capability. I believe that the CH axes are either analog or digital but not both. Also, the flexiblity with which the Cougar axes can be programmed is amazing. The possiblities are almost endless.
3. Simulate axes. With Cougar, you can actually simulate axes that do not physically exist. For example, if you want analog toe brake axes in AH but don't have toe brakes, there are any number of ways you can simulate left and right toe brake axes. Very cool stuff.
4. Trim, scale, lock, swap, reverse axes. With Cougar, you can trim, lock, unlock, swap, reverse, scale, etc. your analog axes while you are in a sim. For instance, you can program the joystick and rudder axes to be more responsive while you are dogfighting than when you are landing.
Cougar's programmability is amazing. The downside, of course, is that to access that capability, you have to spend some time figuring out how it all works. On the other hand, there are a number of canned profiles that ship with the stick, and many people make their custom profiles available for download on the web. I would be happy to send you mine if you like.
Rudders and toe brakes. If there is a significant downside to the Cougar, this is it. With CH, you can simply by a USB throttle, Fighterstick, and Pro Pedals and integrate them using CH's Control Manager software. That gives you access to rudder and toe brake axes. Cougar was designed to be compatible with gameport rudder sets, like the CH Pro Pedals (NOT USB), CH Pedals, TM Elite Pedals, etc. Even so, none of those rudders, even the ones with toe brakes (i.e., CH Pro Pedals), will provide toe brake functionality with the Cougar. You can modify the gameport CH Pro Pedals so that Cougar will recognize the rudder and toe brake axes, but a bit of rewiring is required (I have done this and it works great!)
In my opinion, both the CH and Cougar set-ups are excellent options and we as simmers are lucky to have the variety. For my money, however, Cougar is the better choice.
- JNOV
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Originally posted by DMax
I'm between a rock and a hard place trying to decide between buying a Cougar vs CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle USB system.
Having used a similar CH setup in the past (ForceFX in place of Fighterstick) I am definitely of the opinion that the Cougar HOTAS is much better, and well-worth the difference in price. Very easy to program, though it can handle more complex programming if required... :)
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LONESTARBUCKEYE...
Superbly helpful comparison and analysis! And thanks also to Math, Zeb, Flos and the rest :)
All seem to concur that the Cougar is built like a rock and offers limitless programability. Having grown accustom to the simple pleasures of my old MS Pre Pro & more recently, the Saitek Cyborg USB, I'm almost fearful of TOO many options at my command - LOL
One thing I'm a bit fuzzy on..the USB peds...I have a set of CH Pros. I get that I can't connect them via the stick due to the single gameport plug...but that I can run them in tandem with the HOTAS...but will not have toe brake capability....RIGHT??
Would a gameport/USB adaptor make sense or is it redundant?
Thanks for all the insight :)
DmdMax
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If your Pro pedals are gameport type then they plug into the Cougar joystick, effectively converting them to USB ones!!
This has the advantage of letting the Cougar logic taylor the rudder axis to your own preference with things like linearity, deadband etc.
If you have USB ones then they will work alongside the Cougar plugged into a USB port. With some games like Falcon this is a problem as Falcon only sees one USB controller.
If you want toe brakes on gameport CH rudder pedals, this is covered elsewhere.
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Just to add a note to Zeb's response, if you use CH USB Pro Pedals with AH, you can use the toe brakes to control the AH left and right toe brake analog inputs. Using USB Pro Pedals with Cougar has two disadvantages. As Zeb said, games that recognize only one controller (e.g., Falcon IV, Flanker 2.5, etc.) will not allow you to use both the Cougar and the rudder pedals as input devices. The other disadvantage is that even in those games that do recognize multiple devices, you cannot use Cougar to digitally program the rudder and toe brake axes.
- JNOV
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Using the CH Pro Pedals USB alongside of the Cougar should be as easy as it is running alongside any other USB controller in AH. Since AH will see both devices, you can easily setup the CH Pro Pedals to function as Rudder and toe brakes.
It will only be a problem with old games that can only see one USB device. But who has time to play anything other than AH anyway? ;)
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you can get a cougar for $270, are you kidding, i paid £250 for mine (yes, thats right i am from the UK), hmm, that works out at, er....(1.6*250) is er....., erm..... a lot???
hehe *hits calc.exe*
$400, hmm, why do the words 'hook, line and sinker' seem rather appropriate???
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Originally posted by banana
Using the CH Pro Pedals USB alongside of the Cougar should be as easy as it is running alongside any other USB controller in AH. Since AH will see both devices, you can easily setup the CH Pro Pedals to function as Rudder and toe brakes.
It will only be a problem with old games that can only see one USB device. But who has time to play anything other than AH anyway? ;)
Mathman is having a great deal of trouble getting his usb pro pedals to work with his cougar. I dont know if he has it working yet or not.
Something about it not setting up the cougar as controler 1 so It not working...
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Mathman is having a great deal of trouble getting his usb pro pedals to work with his cougar. I dont know if he has it working yet or not.
Something about it not setting up the cougar as controler 1 so It not working..
He should be able to go into "game controllers" and set the Cougar to game ID 1 manually, at least that's what worked for me. In fact, in WinXP you can move the devices up and down in the list, kind of like how you can move DNS servers in the networking config.
Did he say what OS he's using?
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I think it has been worth it. I have used the CH Combatstick/Pro Throttle/Pedals for years, then went to the Saitek X36, then to the F22/TQS digital and the Cougar is still the best of all of them.
Still it may be personal preference. The Cougar is a stiff stick (no jokes please-ok maybe a couple) and a lot of guys don't like the effort it takes to move the plane around. If you like a 'looser' feeling joystick then the CH line is the way to go. It is very precise-from what I hear particularly the digital versions-but is not the arm twister the TM line has always been.
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I just got done ordering one , suppose to ship May 30 th. Why you buggers couldn't shut up about how good it's suppose to be is beyond me :)
U suppose my wife will notice the differance ?
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http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23277
If you want it a little quicker, it looks like Flight Sim Central has 'em in stock and available for order :)
SOB
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OK, let me clear things up just a bit:
The pedals work fine with the Cougar.
The problem is a WinME problem. Everytime i boot/reboot, Windows assigns the pedals to controller 1 and the Cougar to #2. No big deal to change it on the control panel, but kind of a hassle. I have tried changing the post they are in, but that didn't work (didn't think it would, but with Windows, you never know). I am open to suggestions.
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I thought once you set up the order of the controllers it remembered them. As I don't run ME anymore (never did like it) I can't test it. I don't have this problem with XP.
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Use the CH delete program to take your ch pedals off your syestem , then reboot with your joystick in #1 postion . Then add replug the pedals back in and let the driver reinstall . This will fix the reg. so that the ch pedals are in the second postion .
ch delete program is on the ch website , be sure to unplug the pedals before uninstalling them .
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Thanks airspro, it worked!
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my cougar is in the mail..casualty report to follow..
Math..why didnt you ask about that here a week ago....silly
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why are you using the ch pro's with cougar?
doesn't cougar come with pedals?
if not then are we talking about $270+ for just stick and throttle?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
are we talking about $270+ for just stick and throttle?
YUP...but it's a VERY NICE stick and throttle
DmdMax
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
why are you using the ch pro's with cougar?
doesn't cougar come with pedals?
if not then are we talking about $270+ for just stick and throttle?
$270, I wish. I paid £260 for mine which is $380. And I bought one for the wife as well.
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1 of: Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS Joystick (USB) [Electronics]
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SOB I ordered Thrustmaster peddals from Flight Sim Central , good price and as u say they shipped right away .
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Well i gotta go against the flow and say i hate the damn thing but am now stuck with it.
Sure its very well made and a quality bit of kit but the spring tension is WAY over the top.
Sure i can move it around ok but the problem is the force needed to breakaway from centre and if the stick is deflected diagonally its a nightmare as you can be deflecting 1 spring and suddenly the other spring kicks in, result is I cannot get smooth, progressive and predictable control when i need and expect it.
Tried a simple barrel roll and I am fighting the stick so much i cannot fly the path i want.
If i cannot reduce this spring tension somehow this thing is gonna sit on my desk and haunt me for years to come, as it is my enjoyment of AH and ability to be competitive is gonna go into freefall.
However as somebody stated elsewhere if your into buffing or nothing but BnZ fights then it will be great but if you wanna TnB or make quick reliable adjustments for snap shots you may find like me its not for you.
I am now in the position of fighting the joystick more than the opponent and thats NOT the idea i had when i bought it.
Even seriously considering removing the springs completely in desperation.
Weighing in at approx 240lbs and with large hands strength is not a problem but precise control of this stick is.
Who knows my opinion may change but right now i regret buying it.
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I love my cougar and it is everything I hoped for and more.
But Cav has a point. I have had some trouble in near stall situations with controlablility just because the stick is so stiff in the diagonal axis.
After flying with it for two nights I really dont notice the stiffness any more except when I am at near stall.
Getting used to having all the hats and trim wheels again is more of an issue for me.
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My Cougar is on the brown truck and is expected here in the great white north on June 4th. :)
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I ordered these softer springs , and I havn't even gotten the hotta's yet :D
http://us.thrustmaster.com/support/repairkit/instructions/joyspring.php3
They came today in the post . Brent Stevens and some others on "Frugal World" said that they made it alot easier to move etc .
I just figured no sense in me buying one unless I could make it pull easier .
That said , the best damn feeling joystick in the X and Y axis I have used to date is a FFB2 from Microsoft , just wanted more than four buttons on my stick , hehe .
I use ch pedals and a Saitek throttle , we will see if the cougar is at least as good a feel . Gonna be hard to beat .
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Yea only problem is i am in the UK and if you try to purchase from that site it refuses to accept most of the world as a valid address, it talks about international orders but when you try to order it bounces any address thats not on the American continent.
2 days not flown AH and no desire to either with stick as it is.
By tomorrow i reckon i will pull out of the 2v2 duels as well.
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If you want you can order a set and send it to me here in Michigan , then I will just send it on your address in UK .
My e mail is
sprocket@cmsinter.net
Let me know we can exchange addresses or you can get someone in your squad that you trust to do it for u .
I been shipping stuff to sid , guard , recoile , os , splashu , etc for quite some time , got all the loving forms right here at home . I got a daughter that lives in Bergen , Norway thats how it all started :)
It takes some time to get to uk but the springs are damn small so weight should not be a bother :)
I'll stand the air mail frieght , they are so damn small it should be just pocket change , hehe .
gl
spro
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Thx for the offer Spro but i got it sorted. After contacting the Thrustmaster online store in the UK and getting no joy I decided to cut out the middle man and phoned Guillemot support in the UK.
They could not have been more helpful after describing what i wanted they told me they would send 4 free :)
Of course i made no mention of the fact i was gonna fit em in a cougar just asked for springs to repair my F22 Pro.
As they only have 200 left in stock here is the Guillemot UK support number ( 0207-2160047) for the likes of Flossy or Zeb who i believe has expressed concerns about controllability on another BBS.