Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: H. Godwineson on May 20, 2002, 11:09:59 AM
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Americans hear a lot of talk about problems in the nation's educational systems. What are the main problems, if any, in our elementary, secondary, and college systems? How can they be solved?
Please keep all responses as serious as possible please!
Regards, Shuckins
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Vouchers!
I don't get it. My son is in private school. It costs me approximately $3500 a year to do it.
The state of California spends approximately $7000 per student per year.
Somehow, I'm spending half as much on my son as the state does and yet the education is superior. Teachers are responsive, class size is small, etc.
Where does all the money go? Bureaucracy?
Vouchers!
Make the school compete for your business. It's the only way they find motivation to cut costs.
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Where do I begin?
Public schools operate in a diverse society, comprised of peoples and ideologies that span any spectrum you care to create. We also live in a pro-active, hair-trigger-response world. Everyone has a strong opinion of what public education should be, how things should be done, and everyone has the power to directly influence what happens.
Universities criticize public education for not changing the way testing and evaluation is done (portfolio, multiple intelligences, etc), yet those same colleges cling to the same standardized tests for entry- forcing public institutions to teach in a way that will boost standardized test scores.
Religious/Anti-religious groups are constantly at odds as to what should be taught. Creationism? Evolution? Homosexual studies? All are debated, and it usually comes down to whichever side has the most powerful lobby at any given moment...
Parents vary in their perception of discipline, especially as it applies to their children. Parents will sue with little provocation, and schools cannot afford to fight all the cases. This means discipline is declining, and the students know who is in charge.
Special education is difficult in some public schools, because the lobbies for this group can be powerful. This can result in untenable situations for the classroom teacher. Example: one year I was given 5 students with individual educational plans that required an hour of my time for each. I had an additional 25 regular education students. The student time in class was 5 hours, 40 minutes- what's wrong with the picture? I was legally bound to teach to the 5 students first, and largely ignore the 25 others.
Many parents believe teachers are the caretakers, health-care providers, and ethics teachers. Wish I had a nickel for every time a parent said something to the effect, "I don't teach him how to behave, that's your job!"
Teachers themselves feel bound by the myriad of rules and regulations that constrict every move or word. You've got to be on your game every day, because every day is a career-breaker.
For all that it can be a great job- mine is.
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Sandman-
The one thing that private school can and will do is toss your child out if he/she fails to meet the standards of the school. As you are paying big bucks for the education, you will be quite certain to make sure your child toes the line. Public schools simply cannot do this.
Abolish public education and force people to go to private schools and you will be able to compare apples to apples. 'Course, it could be the education provided by public schools is better than the none that would result from the many people that would not bother with school if it was not a requirement.
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Man, I remember that Voucher initiative in Ca a few years back (Winter 2000 I think? the March Ballot?) Anyhow, there was some seriously bad reasoning going on during the campaign to defeat the initiative. My personal favorite was that "vouchers will rob the school system of badly needed funds" Which on the face of it is true, however, by reducing class sizes the schools would no longer need the same funding. Since vouchers would not have added up to the same amount being spent by the government on a per-student basis, the school system could wind up with MORE money per student than before vouchers.
I like the voucher idea in general, the only problem I have is with the particulars of regulation and fraud prevention. I believe that for any program to work it will need to have some sort of State-wide standard and accreditation process. As I recall, this was somewhat lacking the last time it came up in CA.
-Sikboy
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I think the main problem with the PUBLIC system is that the students aren't really tought how to learn, but rather how to memorize and regurgitate.
I came to the US after graduating from high school in my country, my sibling had to go her 2 last years of high school in a us public school.
She was tested on memorized stuff, assignments were either mechanical regurgitation of the textbook or group assigments that ended in a very poor, bordering mediocre research and presentation. Funny thing was, the more "according to the book" the work was, the higher the grade.
The school also had a lot of summer programs that allowed F+ students to do some light catch-up work in a few weeks of summer and pass to the next grade, without really having learned what they were taught.
And so I found out WHY in college the great majority of students just rolled over and died when they were asked to do research on their own and come with their own results. Heck, some could barely even read. :rolleyes: It's sad when a foreigner comes to a college and tutors ENGLISH to a native!
In my opinion, the SCHOOL system is a royal fuk up, but the College and universities in the US are top-notch. Its very weird.
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Tac-
I'd be very interested to hear what you think is the reason for the state of affairs you described. Seriously.
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This is from memory (not real reliable after those darn 70's) but IIRC the biggest issue I had with the voucher issue here was the amount that was offered. I think it was $2500 per year per student. This would not be enough to cover the education expenses at a private school. Basically the poorer folks would not have the same access to an education through the law and it would have lead to a public school system populated almost exclusively by the "have nots".
I think we need to concentrate on our public school system. We can do much better. Pay teachers what they deserve. Allow communities a say in curriculum. Reduce the administrative overhead.
My mother was a 7th grade teacher for almost 40 years. She refused to work in a public school. Not because it wasn't safe, because she couldn't teach. She was known as the toughest teacher in the school, and her favorite word for below average work was "Asinine".
500 of her former students showed up at her memorial service, and many more wrote and called.
Students need structure. On this I think I lean a little to the right.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
This is from memory blah blah blah Basically the poorer folks would not have the same access to an education through the law and it would have lead to a public school system populated almost exclusively by the "have nots".
Allthough it does dredge up memories of "seperate but equal" from the Civil rights movement, and the segregated south, this might not be the worst outcome imaginable. Imagine if the public school system could focus more attention on the kids who need it most. Would poor students be less served by a public school system where they are the majority of the students than in the current system? I just don't know.
I think we need to concentrate on our public school system. We can do much better. Pay teachers what they deserve.
Word
My mother was a 7th grade teacher for almost 40 years.
7th grade must be the worst age to teach. The kids are just starting to get the adult dosage of hormones. Much respect for your mother.
-Sikboy
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More on Tac's thought...
Public education is ridiculed for not teaching skills, that is, specific skills to prepare students for the workplace. Then education is ridiculed for not teaching students to think. If a tough choice has to be made between skill-based learning and project based (meaning real-world, thinking skills), I choose thinking.
I posted this thought on another thread that graced our board a couple of weeks ago. The technological wave has blown by education and much of the work force. What matters now in the world is thinking on your feet, realizing when you need to go learn something, finding where to learn it, and then educating yourself. The new competition is going to be between those that recognize and react faster to changes in the workplace, not between people with specific skills (for the most part).
The world has changed, and job descriptions are moving targets. How can any educational institution prepare anyone for that type of environment? Teach those kids to think on their feet.
FWIW, Tac, not all schools are like the one you described. There are good and bad public institutions, and as more private schools pop up you will see good and bad there, too. Vouchers are a good idea in concept, but never ignore there will be a need to monitor (as has been stated), and that means a bigger bureaucracy (or new one). There is also the issue of equity. Social scientists decry the growing gap between the haves and have-nots, and vouchers potentially widen the gap. Taken altogether, vouchers may be a case of getting less for more.
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One of the biggest problems is the low pay that teachers get. I know, you are sitting there saying, "yeah, here is a teacher saying that he should get paid more." Of course I want to get paid more for my job, who wouldn't. The thing is, the low pay makes it an unnattractive career for many people. Without a decent paycheck (40-50K starting would be good), you do not get the motivated people that you need for teaching. This is not to say that you don't have motivated or quality teachers at all. What I am getting at is that you lose the people who would make excellent teachers to jobs/careers that pay more.
Aside from the pay, the one thing that really drives me crazy as a teacher is the lack of parental involvement in their child's studies. When we have parent-techer conferences, I never see the parents of the kids that I want to talk to (the ones that have the low grades or are not trying hard). The only ones that I see are the kids with the A's and B's. While it is nice to hear compliments, I would much rather talk to the parents of a C/D/F student than an A student.
I have no idea how to fix this or make it more likely that a parent actually wants to see what their kid is doing and who is teaching them. I know that I would want to meet the person who is influencing my child for 6 hours a day.
Also, one of the other problems, depending on the school district or even the individual school, is the top heavy administration in some schools. With more administrators, accountability becomes an issue. Who is responsible for what? This can be a major issue, particularly when there is an issue with what is going on inside the classroom.
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Tac pretty much hit the nail on the head, and Keiran, the reason it is done here in Texas is due to one of the ways schools get state funding.
In Texas, schools are paid based on the percentage of students that attend and pass each year.
My son was always complaining about how he was not learning a thing, but only being forced to memorize things so they could pass him on tests. Even after they memorize the stuff, the grades are done "on the curve". The way they crve here is not based on an average in the class. They take the highest grade a student makes, they make that grade a perfect score and adjust the other grades upwards accordingly.
If a single student aces the test, then they grade all others based on an average and award bonus points to the student that aced the test.
It is quite easy for a student to finish high school here with a grade point average in excess of 4.0. For the purposes of not letting the colleges see this, they fudge the paperwork to make sure the student has a 4.0.
It is so bad here, that (with my permission) he intentionally failed a test. The teacher then allowed him to make poster boards to make up for the grade by giving him bonus points.
A few weeks later I attended a school board meeting to address this problem and was immediately blasted from the room by a group of parents who could see no reason for the system to change. By the way, all these parents also had bumper stickers on thier cars proclaiming thier child was a honor student.
Now, move the next issue. After the schools get the funding, guess where they spend a significant portion of it? On football. The local high school teaching staff here is comprised of 25% of the teachers being football coaches (17 in all). The football program gets approximately 45% of all the school funding. Do not get me wrong. I think atheletics are important, but I think you can get carried away to the detriment of the students education as well.
I guess what it boils down to is the way money is apportioned to the schools and with little regard on how the school is supposed to spend it.
In Texas:
1) Schools get more funding based on percentage of passing students.
2) Schools get more funding based on attendence by students.
These two reasons alone cause a lot of the educational problems. When my son graduated, I had a chance to meet the valedictorian from his school. He could not calculate the diameter of a circle given the radius. He also managed to get special honors in math.
My sons friends, who were considered quite intelligent, if you beleive what the grades are, all failed thier first semester in college and moved back home.
It is a pretty sad state of affairs, but it will not change. I gave up on it after trying to get it changed.
Oh, and by the way, our local high school is rated as one of the best in Texas. Scary.
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Kieren, I'm just saying what I saw, as to why that's so, I really dont know. My sister went from both public and private school as we moved around, she even stayed for a few months in one of those preppy private catholic schools. No real difference between them we could see.
"If a tough choice has to be made between skill-based learning and project based (meaning real-world, thinking skills), I choose thinking. "
Totally agree.
And yes, teachers should be paid the same as engineers imo.
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Originally posted by Mathman
What I am getting at is that you lose the people who would make excellent teachers to jobs/careers that pay more.
Both my Wife and I were poised to become public school teachers. But when we compared the wage to our love of teaching... well, We took a different path than Mathman. A question though for Math... How do you feel about teacher evaluation and testing?
-Sikboy
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Indiana uses a few elements to get funding. State-standardized scoring (which btw only tests math and english), the number of students eating free lunches, graduation rates and attendance are the major contributors. So, what happens?
The local newspapers will blast the local school if the neighboring town scores higher. The local school has to get pragmatic and decide what is the most efficient method for boosting the pertinent standards reported to the state. All manner of games get played here, and as mentioned in another thread, games with numbers can and do occur. Remember the furor over the Calfifornia students that were required to declare post- high school education training or education? Yup, it can be used as a stat to quantify a higher number of students that are college-bound. It is a sham, pure and simple, but a sham that is forced upon the school district for many reasons. If they don't play the game, they get less money, and that is bound to hurt the students.
What I guess I see is the problem is we get pulled more and more away from what we see is sound education in order to take care of the myriad demands of a bureaucracy that doesn't understand our problems or look for long-term solutions. Everything is a band-aid solution, and inevitably the ripple effects cause worse problems in the long haul.
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Vouchers with testing
Grade the schools on what the kids are taught and retain - allow them to go to other schools when their "assigned" school does not "make the grade" with vouchers.
Higher pay for teachers to recruit better qualified teachers would go a long way. Kids who want to learn would help as would uniforms to standardize the dress code so the kids are more concerned with learning than what they look like to their peers.
Can't compare college with public HS. One is free, the other cost an arm & a leg, make that two legs :)
The students (& parents) usually get serious when $$$ in that quantity are involved.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Vouchers with testing
Grade the schools on what the kids are taught and retain - allow them to go to other schools when their "assigned" school does not "make the grade" with vouchers.
Higher pay for teachers to recruit better qualified teachers would go a long way. Kids who want to learn would help as would uniforms to standardize the dress code so the kids are more concerned with learning than what they look like to their peers.
Can't compare college with public HS. One is free, the other cost an arm & a leg, make that two legs :)
The students (& parents) usually get serious when $$$ in that quantity are involved.
Playing the devil's advocate...
How do you "grade the school on what the kids are taught and retain"? Sounds like standardized testing, and it encourages rote learning.
Penalizing a school with vouchers to private schools encourages public schools to fudge the numbers- or create completely idiotic doctrine that will quantify progress.
Higher pay? All for it, except... who pays for it? People here already scream about property taxes.
Uniforms? Doubt that will ever happen. We can't afford the lawsuits. Should have been here when we enacted our dress code...
You absolutely have to compare college to public education. First, public education is driven to some extent by research conducted by colleges. Secondly, public schools follow the model of behavior to some extent practiced by colleges. In terms of admissions, SAT and ACT tests are still the most important aspects of a student's admission. This means one of the primary concerns of a public institution is teach in a way that will prepare students for SAT or ACT. What do the tests test primarily? Math and English. Research suggests there are eight identifiable intelligences, and at least four different learning styles for each intelligence. Never mind what they all are; it is enough to understand most of our students' abilities are ignored because the system we are under forces us to ignore them.
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The problem is the Students and their Parents. It can't be more serious than that....
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The problem is they still refuse to do anything other than a little intro to the metric system.
All of america's problems can be traced back to our failure to teach a meaningful measuring system.
A.M.E (Americans for Metric Everything) say that:
8 out of 10 rednecks cannot not effectively use metric tools on their trucks.
9 out of 10 americans believe, kilo refers to cocaine.
and 6 out of 10 believe yards and meters are the same measurement.
Until American schools start to teach our kids more about the metric system instead of this dam feet stuff, we'll be doomed to stupidity!
:D
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Like Mathman, I am a school teacher. Currently I am in my twenty-fifth year in this profession. I have been teaching social-studies for twenty-one of those years in a small school in southeast Arkansas in the Mississippi River Delta. In spite of our small size, we have many of the same problems that afflict city schools across the nation; poverty, drugs, and student and parental apathy. Many of our students come from families at the low end of the socio-economic spectrum.
We have other problems that threaten our existence as a school district. In the belief that "bigger is better," some educational leaders are calling for consolidation of the small, isolated, rural districts in the state. As a result, we are constantly having to fight to retain our funding and justify our independence. One measure that the State Department of Education requires all schools to meet is that a certain percentage of our students perform well on various aptitude tests. While larger schools in more prosperous areas of the state have little trouble meeting these requirements, they present us with problems that are almost insuperable. Schools that have large numbers of children from middle or upper-class families have a distinct advantage over the small, rural schools in handling these criteria. Their children have a more positive outlook on education, receive more support from their parents, and are often self motivated. Ours do not.
However, these are only the concerns of a small school district, and do not address the problems of national education as a whole. Let me offer some thoughts about other points that have been brought up by readers of this thread.
1. Vouchers - I am for them. I may be a bit of an oddity because I am one of a small number of public school teachers who support them. It is the height of hypocrisy, in my opinion, for members of Congress to oppose vouchers while sending their own children to private schools. The poor have just as much right to decide where their children should go and how their school tax dollars are spent. If a politician preaches equality and civil rights and then opposes something like this their constituents should run them out of town on a rail.
2. Rote Learning - It does not deserve the criticism that is so often leveled at it. Rote learning has its place within the educational system, as do learning methods that stess decision-making. Rapid decision making is not possible without having at one's disposal a considerable store of information that does not have to be tracked down. Rote learning was largely abandoned by our schools, beginning in the 1960's in favor of strategies that stressed decision making skills. By stressing decision-making skills to the exclusion of rote-learning we hamper a student's ability to MAKE decisions.
3. Phonics - The phonetics approach to teaching reading worked for 3000 years, but was, like rote-learning, largely discarded in the 1960s in favor of the whole-word method. The adoption of these modernistic, educational fads has proven to be disastrous. Not only can little Johnny not read, he cannot spell. He does not have the ability to break a new word down into its component parts to make it easier to pronounce. Especially hard-hit have been the children of the lower socio-economic classes. Coming from homes where the learning environment is not strong to begin with, these children get little help at school. Fortunately, there has been a movement back to the phonetics approach in recent years.
4. Teacher salaries - For those of you who do not think teachers deserve a higher salary let me issue a challenge; Give up your job and teach for a year. One week will not do it. Nor will a month. To get the full measure of the enjoyment do it for an entire year. To further maximize the experience, teach on the junior high level. Hope you enjoy all the lesson planning and paper grading and incessant whining and spoiled behavior and the dishonesty and parental apathy and belligerence and frivolous bureaucratic paperwork. You will find that teaching does have its good points; the children who work hard and appreciate your efforts on their behalf and the parents who make every effort to make your job easier. These golden moments are sometimes few and far between, and they do not help to pay the bills. Like every profession, teaching has its share of idiots and slackers. Ask yourself this question; Should an entire profession be penalized because of the failings of those few? If you are still convinced that teachers do not deserve better pay, ask yourself this question; How can I attract better teachers to the profession without raising salaries to a level competitive with the private sector? Perhaps I'm a little defensive here, but many of the teachers I have known were top-knotch, highly intelligent, and caring people. The old statement "Those that can do...those that cannot teach" is grossly unfair.
To end on a higher note I would like to say that we have more to be thankful for than we realized. Our schools continue to turn out the type of students that turn into world leaders in every scientific and business field. Immigrants pour into our country every year and manage to get a first-class education. We must be doing something right!
Regards, Shuckins
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Eagler, Florida already does the voucher for F grade schools.
Yes, the grades come partially from standardized testing. (also grad rates and attendence are factored in.) It's not just straight test scores either, you have to show improvement. So when your students top out, you're no longer an A school, you're a B school. This happened last year in our district. One of the elementary schools scored some of the highest test scores in the state, and was well ahead of the other elementary schools in the district. It was a B school, while several other elementary schools were A schools. I guess you could say that's fair though, since they're doing as well as they can (based on the scores topping out) they don't need more funding than the other schools for technology and teaching resources.
1. Pay the teachers more. How to do this? Cut out as much beauracracy as you can. Most public districts are VERY top heavy in administration. Even in a district with streamlined administration, the teachers don't get paid much. It's difficult to pay the teachers more based on what the state gives the school districts (I'm speaking solely for Florida, it's where I live, and yes, I work in a school district as a web admin.) Then you have to do the thing that NO ONE wants. Raise taxes or appropriate more money for education. Or you can lie like Florida did. We have a lottery that most of the funds generated from go to education. It was implied that the lottery would supplement current education funding. Nope. The current funding was mostly diverted to other areas and the lottery became the main funding for education in the state.
2. give the teachers more tools. Computers and educational software are very important in helping teach our kids. Remedial software can help catch children up, for example.
3. get the parents more involved, like mathman said. The parents need to take an active interest in their child's grades. It's wonderful to see Skuzzy talk about his kid, you can tell his genuinely interested in his education. If the kid is falling behind in school, the parents need to help out, either do it themselves or get the kid a tutor if he/she has problems grasping a concept.
The scary thing is how obvious these things are, yet nothing is done about them. Teachers need to be paid more. They are public servants that basically shape the future of our country. Think about it, does the average kid spend more time with their parents or their teachers?
oh, and gotta give my district some props... they know how to teach the kids to the FCAT, florida comprehensive assessment test. In most categories and grade levels they were first or tied for first in the state, out of 67 districts. The rest were second, with four 3rds and one 4th. Nothing lower than that! I think the 6th, 7th, and 8th grade levels were all 1st or tied for 1st. :) However, all that means is the kids are trained how to take the FCAT, it doesn't mean they've actually learned everything they should have learned in their grade level. It's only Math, Reading and Writing. No science or social studies, so those subjects probably get skimped on for the Elementary kids...
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I taught Special Education for 5 years. I quit because I burned out. I admire those who can do this job for so long.
Teaching is the most underpaid profession bar none IMHO. The amount of preparation necessary each and every day is difficult to describe to people. Most of us go to our jobs with a vague plan of what we want to accomplish, or wondering what might crop up today.
A teacher must have his/her entire day orchestrated EVERY DAY. It's almost like doing a performance in front of an audience with a new script each time. I would really look forward to "film classes". We used to call it a 'lesson plan in a can'.
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The main problem I have with rote learning is the nature of the retention found in its usage. Yes, some things are best learned by rote- multiplication tables and state's capitals are good examples. The problem lies when it becomes the foundation of the educational system. You know you can give a test 80% of your students pass one week, then give the same test a month later and only 60% will pass.
True learning occurs when students internalize, attach some personal meaning to the information gathered, or find something that applies in the real world and to themselves that makes it worth retaining. For this, rote learning falls far short because rote learning isn't about examining or understanding, it is simply "A=347, got that?" You can't call upon years of disconnected information running through your head; it has to be anchored to something understandable or it will be forgotten or unattainable on command.
Thinking skills are far more important- they teach you to process information as you receive it, how to analyze the information, and where to get more information as needed.
Our collective educational problem where rote learning is concerned is that many of our schools use rote learning to boost standardized state testing scores. We rush through material in our books, feeling the heat from the "impending test", pressured to cover as much material as possible. This ensures we never give more than a passing glance at any one topic, also ensuring we cannot really teach for understanding. Lord help you if your students show poorly on standardized tests and it is revealed you didn't even cover the material that was tested.
As far as I know, no state has adopted standardized testing that really tests anything other than material that can be memorized by rote. If research says learning for understanding is vital to our students, doesn't it seem we are blowing it with the standardized tests? And you are absolutely kidding yourself if you think the bulk of the school systems in the country aren't doing exactly what I suggested, that is, teaching to the standardized testing.
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Keiran the reason a comparison between college and high school won't work (unless you're trying to make a case for vouchers) is because all colleges (even public ones) are operating as private schools. Without performance they get no students at all, because each student and/or parents must make a decision to select that school based on its track record and what it has to offer.
As far as standardized tests go, I'd love to have a better system of evaluating progress, but I haven't seen one.
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There is nothing wrong in concept with standardized testing; what is wrong is what is tested and how it is tested.
Children are not numbers, and they can't be quanitified that easily. As I have already mentioned, there are eight identified intelligences and four learning styles. Standardized testing considers two of the intelligences and two of the learning styles. If you don't happen to fall into those categories (and many children don't) you lose.
Keep standardized tests, but change them to evaluate all intelligences and learning styles.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
How do you feel about teacher evaluation and testing?
-Sikboy
I am for it. At least the evaluation part. The reason why evalutation is good is that it will provide a way for teachers to get feedback concerning what is going on in their classroom and be able to improve and become better. Also, it provides a way for those that will not adapt and improve to be removed or placed in a situation that they are better suited for.
My mom is a principal at a middle school in San Diego, and she is constantly evaluating teachers and giving them constructive feedback on their performance and offering ways to improve. This is the key for creating a learning environment that will produce students that not only think for themselves, but are willing participants in the education process. When the students become involved, it makes my job easier. I get immediate feedback on what topics I need to stress or cover in a much more thorough way than others.
I love my job. Everyday is different from the one before. It sounds lame, but when you see the "light bulb" go on for a student, it makes the whole job that much better.
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Thanks Math.
-Sikboy
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Nifty - I know and I am for it, though the dems and the teachers want it repealed. Funny they want a job in which THEY are never held accountable for their performance - i.e. teaching the kids in their charge
Maybe we should go back to busing, that worked so well :rolleyes:
Nothing like putting your 6th grade son on a bus for a 45 min ride into a neighborhood you wouldn't drive your family into past 5pm - all in the name of "equal education"
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Fatty-
The comparison that is strongest between colleges and public schools is the manner in which students are assessed. Both look at graduation rates and use standardized scores (exit scores for public education, entry scores for colleges).
Colleges and public schools are linked through research, and what innovation that does occur in our schools usually originates in colleges. This usually comes in the form of research.
New school improvement models incorporate more of a grass roots approach, because research suggests cookie-cutter approaches don't always fit (surprise!). Not only that, but schools are well accustomed to educational initiatives in the form of school improvement being written then immediately shelved as impractical. Schools waste time writing policies that conform to state mandates (in order to receive funding), but realize as they are written they are impractical. This hopefully is changing, but only time will tell. The new iniatives will have to overcome a very cynical teaching core- last thing in the world a teacher has time for is more busywork.
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Eagler, f you think the Florida teachers do not teach 90% (or more) to the FCAT, then you are mistaken.
Kids spend a lot of time on FCAT prep software, so they can do extremely well on the test. Now, granted, these kids get very good at taking these tests... which only test basic math and reading (and writing in all of 2 grade levels). Is this what you really want? The emphasis in Florida schools isn't about education, it's about the FCAT because that's where the school grades mostly come from, and the school grades are exactly where the funding levels come from.
It's a mixed bag for me. I see our students in this district do the best in the state on the FCAT, which is good. However, does that mean the schools here are concentrating TOO much on one standardized test that only tests 2 subject areas? (eventually science is supposed to be added. maybe one day history and other social studies will be too. but we all know history isn't important...) This is the reason why a lot of people are against the FCAT as the near sole measure of accountability in this state. How are you going to hold a middle school history teacher accountable with the FCAT?
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At least they are teaching the kids something, and the kids have to retain it at least until they take the test. I'm all for it until something better comes along. Actually I'm all for it for two more years when my youngest grads from HS and he goes on to college. Then my wallet will do the testing :)
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Nifty,
Exactly right, and exactly one of my arguments against the current model of standardized testing.
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I hate to be the great defender of standardized testing, but even given all criticisms as valid I'd take them over nothing. I'd much rather see an attempt at improving the comprehensiveness over ditching them because of shortcomings.
As for collegiate level I don't have any problem with GRE type testing or even the entrance exams. Schools do try to balance these with other achievements, but when it comes down to it there isn't really a better way to do a comparison of applicants from different schools whose grading methods may be completely different.
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Since I moved to Ohio 5 months ago, I have had a unique opportunity to discuss wages with factory workers, construction workers, sales consultants and many others who's jobs require no college. Their salaries are quite often in the 40-60+ K range.
So, what kind of salary does someone deserve in the private sector after completing 9+ years of college?
What if this includes being certified for their occupation at graduate level, having experience and a proven track record?
What if their job can not realistically be done in less than 50 hours a week? (Often much more.)
What if the job expectation is to spend even more time volunteering to work for committees and attending late night functions and early meetings?
What if the job in question constantly requires juggling several tasks at once, out of thousands that must be completed in less than a year?
What if the job requires supervising and directing 20+ untrained, immature, unmotivated and independent workers at once?
What if the job in question legally requires additional training and education on a yearly basis, much of it at the employees expense?
What if the job implies that the employee needs to spend 5 to 10% of his/her yearly salary on unsupplied material?
What if the job requires documenting every &%#*@ task that the employee does.
What if the job requires being micro-managed by: politicians, administrators, "experts" and "specialist", members of the community, etc. all with conflicting ideas of how the job should be done, because "they know what's best" even though THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY DOING THE %&*#@ JOB, AND HAVE NEVER ACTUALLY DONE THE &*%#$@ JOB!!!!
What kind of salary should this job bring?
Well, obviously we are talking about teaching here, what else would fit this job profile? And we all know what teachers make!
One of the first things that I always hear when a discussion of teacher's salaries comes up is:
"But you get the summers off!"
This is true, but you would not believe how much time myself and other teachers spend getting ready for the next school year. Preparing and organizing our classrooms, planning lessons and units, creating materials, fixing stuff that the school district should have, taking classes, etc. Heck, I even painted my classroom one summer (at my own expense, of course).
When it comes to education, the question becomes: "What's the least that we can pay certified people to do this job?"
And if the taxpayers are particularly cheap, the question becomes: "How much do we have to lower our standard requirements and expectations to get enough people to work at this pathetic pay, and under these pathetic conditions?"
So, what was my salary last year?
Less than 28 K.
This was fine when my wife worked. But now we have kids, and I'll be damned to put them in day care. And I'll be damned to not see my kids grow up because I'm always at work. I don't mind driving an $800 car for the past 6 years, wearing clothes from the Salvation Army, playing AH on an old P-II 350, but I'm not going to raise my kids in an apartment complex in a bad part of town.
I can't afford to be a teacher... I'm done.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Fatty
I hate to be the great defender of standardized testing, but even given all criticisms as valid I'd take them over nothing. I'd much rather see an attempt at improving the comprehensiveness over ditching them because of shortcomings.
As for collegiate level I don't have any problem with GRE type testing or even the entrance exams. Schools do try to balance these with other achievements, but when it comes down to it there isn't really a better way to do a comparison of applicants from different schools whose grading methods may be completely different.
Fatty,
Standardized testing is about as worthwhile as the AH score system. It gives indications of success.
Both can be useful and misleading.
The top 10 fighter list is a good indicator that those pilots are... good. But I wouldn't bet that pilot #100 or #3000 wasn't every bit as good as those in the top 10. And I wouldn't bet surprised if pilot #10 or #100 wasn't really just average.
Likewise, standardized tests just barely indicate... things, at best. Yet a lot of weight is put upon them. There are way too many factors that influence or determine the success of a: student, teacher, school or district. The AH score system is very simple, clear, cut-n-dry by comparison.
eskimo
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Eskimo,
I know what you mean. With 25 years experience, a masters degree, plus more than 30 hours of additional credits, most of them at the graduate level, my take home pay is $28,000 a year.
I love my job but it isn't worth the financial headaches that come with it. My credit rating stays screwed up because of emergencies that eat up the cash for my monthly payments. We are living in a double-wide mobile home because that is all that we can afford.
Arkansas is facing a severe teacher shortage within the next few years because there aren't enough college grads moving into the field of education. One of the more laughable suggestions to come down from a state legislative committee studying the teacher shortage is that the standards for teacher certification and accreditation be made tougher in order to attract more graduates into the field of education!
DAMN! If I were a college graduate that would certainly cause ME to think seriously about going into education!
Regards, Shuckins
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I am all for teacher standards being set high, but if you are going to raise standards, you'd better be ready to pay more. Anyone thinking making a job tougher for the same pay will create incentive to move into the field is nuts.
I will never cease to be amazed at the dollars thrown at sports figures compared to what is thrown at essential services jobs such as fire, police, health care, and education. Naturally that is private money, but our society sure seems to accept those figures are worth more than any other. I guess the next time your house catches fire you can call an NBA player. :rolleyes:
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How do you guys currently teaching feel about allowing teachers into the profession with "life experience" credits or honorary degrees.
I bet there are lots of retired people who would make excellent instructors. Maybe in specialized classes, or even at the Junior College level.
My father was a self taught engineer, and taught drafting in a local JC. He never attended college. (Ended up as the CEO of a 300 million dollar a year company too)
I am a member of our community council on higher education and business. This means I get to meet with the local college presidents once a quarter and squeak them out for sending so many uneducated workers our way.
OK. Maybe that is a little oversimplified, but it would be nice if our community schools started educating people for our community.
My company sponsors a local teacher to come work with us for a week each year. This externship program helps the district formulate some curriculum to assist in the future employment of our local students.
Many of us in business should take a more active role in the schools in our communities. It is in our best interests too.
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Originally posted by Mathman
I have no idea how to fix this or make it more likely that a parent actually wants to see what their kid is doing and who is teaching them. I know that I would want to meet the person who is influencing my child for 6 hours a day.
Mathman,
Every high-risk school teacher that I have talked to has expressed your concern. No one seems to have a workable answer. My solution was to stop banging my head against the wall. Trying to get certain parents to do what they have already proven that they can't (parent) is a waste of time and energy. Figure out how best to get the kids to learn what they need to learn while they are in school. That's what everyone expects anyway.
eskimo
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MT-
I have no problem with that, especially given that I come from a situation sort of similar to that. I was educated as a K-6 teacher, and have 14 years experience. Our high school lost a tech teacher, and I was moved based on my work and experience outside the classroom to cover. They have decided to retain me in this position.
Experience matters. Real-world situations matter. If you consider the concept of project-based learning, then you realize the importance of utilizing industry persons. It won't work in every case, but it does have its place. The problem you may face is finding a way to evaluate the efficacy of such persons before you turn them loose on a class. Knowing how to do something doesn't equate to being able to teach something. Teaching is a skill in and of itself.
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Eskimo-
Correct. You have a situation before you every day. Assume you are the only person that can do anything about it. Assume you are going to have the greatest impact on the student (at least for the positive). Expect no help from anyone or any organization. If you can do this and function, you'll be ok.
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Teaching is a skill in and of itself.
Excellent point. When we all learn this we will be headed the right direction.
I run the Quality Department where I work. Much of what we do involves pointing out things people do wrong. I look for "teacher types" when I hire inspectors. It is much more important to have the ability to instruct than it is to have the technical knowledge of the product. Technical knowledge is much easier to teach.
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Originally posted by Kieran
MT-
I have no problem with that, especially given that I come from a situation sort of similar to that. I was educated as a K-6 teacher, and have 14 years experience. Our high school lost a tech teacher, and I was moved based on my work and experience outside the classroom to cover. They have decided to retain me in this position.
Experience matters. Real-world situations matter. If you consider the concept of project-based learning, then you realize the importance of utilizing industry persons. It won't work in every case, but it does have its place. The problem you may face is finding a way to evaluate the efficacy of such persons before you turn them loose on a class. Knowing how to do something doesn't equate to being able to teach something. Teaching is a skill in and of itself.
My wife went to a private Catholic high school. Her physics teacher was a former nuclear sub captain and was a member of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. To the best of her knowledge, he was not formally trained in education. He was also a natural teacher and she still speaks praise of him to this day. Private schools can get away with hiring such people, which very often is a good thing. As Kieran pointed out, however, how do you know what your getting into when you hire someone based on their worldly experience? Being formally trained in education means that you ease your way in. But then again, a lot of teachers make it through school and some actually get hired, without being "good".
I began my teaching career as a substitute teacher. I had no formal training in education. The only requirements to be a sub were a four year degree in anything, and an FBI background check. I went to work my first day, teaching 7th grade English in a high risk school. I was 100% unprepared. So why was I hired? Because not enough certified teachers were willing to work for $65 a day, without benefits. This is a common trend because sub pay is so low. I have even heard of places that hire untrained full-time teachers. (After a year of subbing I went to grad school to study education in hopes of teaching full time.)
Teaching is the one occupation where instead of raising the salaries to attract qualified employees, standards are sometimes lowered until classrooms are full. I guess I was lucky when I was hired full time. I was one of 30 to be hired that year, out of 3,000 applicants (I was hired in the highest paying district in the Colorado Springs area). They could probably offer no pay at all to teachers, and many people would still do it. Hey that's not a bad idea! Then the taxpayers would be able to afford the 6-change CD player for their car and be able to buy tickets for the next big sporting event. After all, those professional sports figures have got to have enough $ for their hoes, cocaine, Ferraris, concealed weapons and hotel-room repairs. As long as they don't have their hard earned money being wasted on educating the neighborhood kids, they'll be happy. Maybe they can buy better alarm systems and homeowner's insurance with the money that they save on education taxes, after all, they're going to need the alarms and insurance when these kids start breaking into their homes to steal stuff...
eskimo