Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hazed- on December 16, 2001, 10:28:00 AM
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Having been one of those that called for the perking of the F4uc I would like to clarify my reasons for believing it needed it....
1. It was overcrowding the arena!
2. It was deadly from inside 800 yards even in a snapshot and it wasnt particulary hard to down any aircraft with very short bursts
3. It was blue :D
hehe ok basically it was down to its overpopulation of the arena.
FINALLY to the point of my post, the F4u4,
my question is simple, why is this aircraft perked for 60 points???
I flew it yesterday in the TA as MA was down and sure its very agile, climbs well, good dive etc but the guns are typical 50cal, ie it takes a fair amount of hits to down a target (though by no means hard to do with the 50s non-drop bullets) , where is the danger in this aircraft? have i missed something? is it faster than a tempest or something? I dont have info on this model so Im struggling to work out why its 60 perks to fly?
the F4uc was numerous, had the best 20mm in the game and often killed me from over 900 yards off my 6.It ruined the fun for me so i was well pleased to see its use reduced by perking it.The f4u4 just doesnt appear to be quite as dangerous as the f4uc to me.
have i missed something here?
ok heres a run down on my view of perk costs:
200 perks for me262 - overall good but maybe
150 a little easier to swallow when you lose one [150 perks?]
8 perks for f4uc - excellent works well but even this maybe needs slight reduction as they no longer flood the arena[4 perks?]
30 perks for ta152 - pretty close but i still feel it could come down some [20-25 perks?]
70 perks for tempest - maybe a little expensive but close [50-60 perks?]
60 perks for arado - probably right considering their rarity in WW2 but still a tad hi :) [ maybe 30 or 40 perks? ]
60 perks for F4u4 - just dont get it..
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The whole perk system is flawed anyway.
It's all very well for these people that fly 200 hours a month, get 1000 kills a tour and therefore earn perkies like they grow on trees......but what about those that dont get that much time to fly? Gotta save up for 2 months just for a Temp.
And yet again Swoop agrees with Hazed, 60 pts for a plane that's arguably less lethal that a 1-C which costs 8 pts is daft.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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1. It was overcrowding the arena!
Planes don't overcrowd the arena.. people do. And I seriously doubt that HTC would rather not have a crowded arena.
Perhaps was too prolific in the arena? 30% of the kills one tour were attributed to the F4u-1C.
Oh.. and I completely agree that the F4u-4 should be reduced in perk cost. Considerably. It should be comparable to the Ta-152 in cost... both between 15 and 20.
AKDejaVu
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"60 pts for a plane that's arguably less lethal that a 1-C which costs 8 pts is daft."
Should plane perk prices be solely based upon their weapons? That's the 1C's only advantage over the -4. In terms of performance the -1C is at best average.
I think the F4U4 price is about right; maybe 50 would be better but no less. The F4U-4 is substantially better than any non-perked plane, and IMO is also substantially better than the F4U-1C and the Ta-152. In terms of ammo load and performance through altitude range it is even better than the Tempest.
Again, I think the relative rarity of Tempests, F4U-4's and Ta-152's has more to do with most people saving up for a 262, than with anything being too expensive.
J_A_B
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personnally i say raise all perk costs.
so what if ya cant afford it :)
theres plenty of things I wouldn't mind having :)
200 perks fer a 262 is fine
I've flown about 16 hours this tour I've earned plenty for any plane I want.
I dont think the game will be any better having more perk planes flying around.
Some would argue it would actually be worse off.
With the exception of a perk vehicle I dont see a need for anymore perk craft for awhile.
I know some folks feel cheated because they miss out of flying a perk.
Well so what..... if they really "need" to fly a perk craft they will fly planes with a hi eny value kill planes with a lo eny value.
you fly a g6 alot
kill 10 spits with it 35/13= 2.3 per spit ix
get 10 of umm 23.33 land it multiply by 1.25
and you get 30 perks....ta152 time :)
I like the perk system if anything I make perks cost a bit more....
Some folks dont care anything about umm I know a guy thats got 6k perks and could careless about perk planes.
If ya wanna fly umm do the work like everyone else......
no free lunch :)
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It was a pure Bullsh*t dweeb ride with pure bullsh*t dweeb cannon that absolutely fed into the gangbang furball stick a quarter into it arcade manufacturing pinball wizard nonesense that had a very negative impact on gameplay in mine and many others opinions.
The reason F4U1Cs have become *regular* rides is what I *suspect* may have been some corrections made to the impossible energy retention and absence of full weight that made the damned thing so dweeby to begin with-->In My Opinion. I could be wrong about FM changes but they dont behave in flight the way they used to in my experience.
The F4U-4 is damned fast at altitude. I havent checked it against others at various alts but I have chased down several 190Ds and 51Ds at high altitude in the thing. Still, I prefer the F4U-1.
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/yeagersig.jpg)
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There has always been lots of debate about perk points with some people hating the concept and others loving it. Most of the proponants of the system say it helps keep certain planes rare that should be rare (i.e. unbalanceing planes or those that were in real life rare). Those that oppose the system usually do so on the grounds that you should be able to fly what you want when you want. I can understand and sympathize with both positions to some degree although I personally favor the perk system. One reason that I like it is one that I have not seen presented on here yet. Quite simply, it is the fact that the perk system gives you something to work towards. Why do you think so many offline games disable certain items until you beat certain levels etc. Example, the racing game Need For Speed doesnt allow you to drive certain cars until you have beaten certain levels and that unlocks them. Madden Football gives you extra bonus teams for winning certain games. These are play incentives that make it fun to try to win. The way I see it, perks do the same thing to some degree. That is one of the main reasons I like the perk system. I wish that there were more things to buy using perks though, especially ground vehicles and bombers. I also wouldnt mind seeing a few more fighters perked very lightly, namely the La-7 and the Spitfire IX and possibly the P-51D. Four perks at most for these aircraft. I agree with the above posters that the F-4U4 should be reduced in price somewhat, to at least the level of the C model. Also, for those that complain about how hard it is to win perks, its actually pretty easy. Im not in the top tier of fighter pilots in AH yet by any means although Im learning, nonetheless I find its pretty easy to run up the perks. I can easily make fighter perks at the rate of 12 or more per hour. Its just a matter of using aircraft that are lower rated like the C.202 and C.205 etc, and surviving the mission. Shoot down just two or three enemies in a fight and make it home and you should get 6-9 points depending on what you killed. One other fun thing about perk points that I like is the fact that when you are flying perk planes the intensity level is ratcheted way up since you actually have something to lose. Even if you have so many points that you can afford the loss, it still impacts you more than the loss of a free fighter. Some of my most enjoyable missions in here are the ones where I was sweating out a close battle in a Me-262. Of course losing them is not much fun (been there, done that, 2 Arados and 1 262 lost so far!) but its worth it.
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ALL perk planes except the jets should be at around 15 perks.
Arado should be 25 perks, 262 should be 100-150 perks.
The chog is controlled now, the 152 and tempest and f4u4 are overpriced imo. A tempest is mighty fast..but its got a minimal ammo load. F4u4.. its basically a P-51D with tempest like accel and 6 .50's. The 152.. not better than a d9 at below 20k.
All the above only have accel advantage over the 51D and hi alt performance advantage over the la7. That is why their cost should be lowered to 10 to 15 perks. Heck, if the chog, which is a MONSTER on its own, and you are almost guaranteed to kill a boatload of cons with it...costs 8 perks and its rarely seen now, you'd think the tempests, f4u4's and 152's would be seen commonly at 10-15 perk cost? If at all, that would drain the player's perks more quickly, considering the la7, 51d/b, 190d9 and 109g10 and yak9U have a damn good chance at smacking them down.
That some people are online more than others and get more perks as a result, yes. So what? You saying that by lowering the perk costs or removing the perk system just because others dont fly enough to get perk plane is even WORSE. You would see all those people that fly online more than you do flying those perk planes.. MORE often. And if they're free, heck, thats all you'll see and they will out-fly you in them because they will get more flying time IN them.
Also, flying the la7, the n1k and other planes of its ilk will not get you any decent perkies.
Try a 205, its an EXCELLENT plane and it gets perks mighty quickly. Grab a yak9U, a 38L, an early 109 model, f4u-1... all these are great airplanes and will give you 3X the perkies you would get in those late war monster rides so many are addicted to.
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Originally posted by hazed-:
Having been one of those that called for the perking of the F4uc I would like to clarify my reasons for believing it needed it....
1. It was overcrowding the arena!
2. It was deadly from inside 800 yards even in a snapshot and it wasnt particulary hard to down any aircraft with very short bursts
3. It was blue :D
hehe ok basically it was down to its overpopulation of the arena.
FINALLY to the point of my post, the F4u4,
my question is simple, why is this aircraft perked for 60 points???
I flew it yesterday in the TA as MA was down and sure its very agile, climbs well, good dive etc but the guns are typical 50cal, ie it takes a fair amount of hits to down a target (though by no means hard to do with the 50s non-drop bullets) , where is the danger in this aircraft? have i missed something? is it faster than a tempest or something? I dont have info on this model so Im struggling to work out why its 60 perks to fly?
the F4uc was numerous, had the best 20mm in the game and often killed me from over 900 yards off my 6.It ruined the fun for me so i was well pleased to see its use reduced by perking it.The f4u4 just doesnt appear to be quite as dangerous as the f4uc to me.
have i missed something here?
ok heres a run down on my view of perk costs:
200 perks for me262 - overall good but maybe
150 a little easier to swallow when you lose one [150 perks?]
8 perks for f4uc - excellent works well but even this maybe needs slight reduction as they no longer flood the arena[4 perks?]
30 perks for ta152 - pretty close but i still feel it could come down some [20-25 perks?]
70 perks for tempest - maybe a little expensive but close [50-60 perks?]
60 perks for arado - probably right considering their rarity in WW2 but still a tad hi :) [ maybe 30 or 40 perks? ]
60 perks for F4u4 - just dont get it..
Hazed,
read this. from here http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html)
So, perhaps now is a good time to summarize the performance of the F4U-4. Let’s compare it to the aircraft generally believed to be the best all-around fighter of World War Two, the North American P-51D Mustang.
Speed: The -4 was about 10 mph faster than the P-51D at the altitude where the Mustang developed it’s highest speed.
Advantage: F4U-4
Climb: The -4 Corsair was a remarkable climber despite its size and weight. It could out-climb the Mustang by nearly 800 fpm.
Advantage: F4U-4
Maneuverability: The F4U-4 was one of the very best. According to Jeffrey Ethell: "Of all World War II fighters, the Corsair was probably the finest in air-to-air combat for a balance of maneuverability and responsiveness. The -4, the last wartime version is considered by many pilots who have flown the entire line to be the best of them all….." Indeed, the F4U-4 had few, if any equals at the business of ACM (air combat maneuvering).
Advantage: F4U-4
Armament: Equipped with either six .50 caliber machine guns or four 20mm cannons, the -4 had more than adequate firepower to destroy any aircraft. It was the premier load carrying single engine fighter of the war. It could get airborne with bomb loads exceeding that of some twin engine medium bombers.
Advantage: F4U-4
Survivability: There was no other single engine fighter flown during the war that could absorb greater battle damage than the Corsair and still get home. Even the USAAF admitted that the F4U was a more rugged airframe than the tank-like P-47 Thunderbolt. That is a remarkable admission. The big Pratt & Whitney radial engine would continue to run and make power despite have one or more cylinders shot off. The P-51D, on the other hand, could be brought down by a single rifle bullet anywhere in the cooling system.
Advantage: F4U-4
Useful range: The F4U-4 had roughly the same radius of action as the Republic P-47D-25-RE, which flew escort missions deep into Germany as far as Berlin (the P-47D-25-RE had 100 gallons of additional internal fuel capacity). Yet, the P-51D still maintained a big edge in endurance.
Advantage: P-51D
Ease of flight: Despite gaining the nickname of "Ensign Eliminator", the F4U series tendency to roll under torque was no more difficult to handle than any other high powered fighter of the era. Some who have flown both the Corsair and the Mustang state without hesitation that the P-51 exhibited a greater propensity to roll on its back than did the F4U. Moreover, the Corsair was a far more forgiving aircraft when entering a stall. Although it would drop its right wing abruptly, the aircraft gave plenty of advanced warning of an impending stall by entering a pronounced buffeting about 6-7 mph before the wing dropped. The P-51, however, gave no warning of an impending stall. When it did stall, it was with a total loss of pilot control, rolling inverted with a severe aileron snatch. Recovery usually used up 500 ft or more of altitude. It was not uncommon for Mustangs to spin out of tight turns during dogfights. The F4U could also be flown at speeds more than 30 mph slower than that at which the Mustang stalled. In other words, the P-51 could not hope to follow a Corsair in a low speed turning fight.
Advantage: F4U-4
Outward Visibility: The Corsair provided for very good visibility from the cockpit. However, few if any WWII fighters offered the pilot a better view than the P-51D. The earlier P-51B was inferior to the F4U. Nonetheless, it was the D model that made up the bulk of Mustang production.
Advantage: P-51D
Finally there is an area in which the P-51 cannot compete at all. The F4U was designed to operate from an aircraft carrier. What this provides for is a utility that is unmatched by the better land based fighters of WWII. The ability to operate at sea or from shore can never be over-valued.
Obvious advantage: F4U-4
In conclusion, it would be hard, no, impossible to dismiss the F4U-4 as the leading candidate for the "best fighter/bomber of WWII". Furthermore, there is strong evidence that it very well may be the best piston engine fighter (to see combat) period. Certainly, everyone can agree on this: The F4U-4 Corsair was at the pinnacle of WWII piston engine technology and performance. When people debate the relative merits of the great fighter aircraft of WWII, they would be remiss in not acknowledging the F4U-4 as one of the very best, and in the educated opinion of many, "the best" fighter aircraft to fly into combat in World War II.
whels
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I believe the -4 should cost less perkies so that I can fly it more.
Thank you,
SOB
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i belive that the F4U-4 should be perked...but maybe not as much. maybe around 15-20 perks. BUT i also think that maybe the p51D,F4U1-D,spit9, and 190D-9 should also be perked at around the 5-10 perk area. these planes have a huge advantage over everything else, and are most of the planes that you see in the air. plus it would give an extra incentive to get home. too many people are gettin up and not caring if they die as much as if they were in a perk plane. i feel that if these planes were perked at 5-10 perks they would still be afordable to fly on a regular basis plus there would be an extra incentive to get home. i.e.-losing your perks.
my 2 cents
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I have often wondered why it's perked so high, I don't see it as being that uber so excuse my ignorance please but how many F4U4's saw action in WW2? If it was as many as I think then I don't see why its being perked so high unless it was a rare bird.
I don't fly as much as most and when I do I tend to fly heavy fighters or bombers but it still takes me a while to save those perkies up. I have only just recently got enough perks for a 262 after re-opening my old account a month or so ago but I'm not really bothered, if I decide to blow em all on a 262 then so be it or I may just have a few Tempests, but when I do I'll know I've not only earned them but I won't be unbalancing the arena by using it because of its perk status which is why I say let em stay as they are but maybe look at the F4U4.
[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: Revvin ]
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Just which planes should not be perked? It seems we have covered this ground just last week, but ah... maybe we are destined to repeat?
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Kieren: They want to keep perking the 5 most popular planes until the only unperked plane is their favorite and everybody flies only that. It's about variety don't you see? :o
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Very good posts Hazed and Whels... :) I have flown the F4u-F quite often and find it very sweet plane.But a tad overpriced..I say...40 perks? :cool:
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Maybe they should perk everything then skilless dweebs like myself won't waste our money and time playing since we won't have the points to fly.
DES
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Maybe they should perk everything then skilless dweebs like myself won't waste our money and time playing since we won't have the points to fly.
DES
Toad, we have a nominee. Succinct and searing, and dead-on.
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Climb: The -4 Corsair was a remarkable climber despite its size and weight. It could out-climb the Mustang by nearly 800 fpm.
Advantage: F4U-4
Wow... you mean it outclimbed what was considered one of the poorest climbers in 1944 by whole 800 fpm ? !!! Wow !!
Hehehe, premise of comparison is BS. Comparison is BS. Compare it to P51H and then let's talk.
So, who will be the first to say "unperk F4U-4 and perk Spit 9 !!!" ?
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Well since the F4u1c was perked ONLY becuase it was flooding the MA why not perk the spits, niki, and P51's? i see those ALL the time. i see mabye a F4u here and there but i see those 3 about 98% of the time.. MABYE im just not in a lucky spot and all i see are those planes but heck since F4u1c is perked PERK THE SPIT(and friends) :cool:
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Kieren: They want to keep perking the 5 most popular planes until the only unperked plane is their favorite and everybody flies only that. It's about variety don't you see? :o
if this is a reply to my post...which i think it is. check my stats...i fly the p51D amost exclusively. i would like to see it perked. even i fall into the "who care's if i die...its not a perk plane" garble sometimes. i just feel it would add maybe a little extra strategy to the game. and make it a lot more enjoyable.
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So, who will be the first to say "unperk F4U-4 and perk Spit 9 !!!" ?
Hehe, believe me, I'm waiting on that, too.
What is it about us that we have to wring every bit of fun out of our entertainment by examining and quantifying it to the extreme? "I would be having fun, but I am seeing 6.3% more 190's than I think I should... sigh... if only there were 6.3% less 190's..."
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Originally posted by fd ski:
So, who will be the first to say "unperk F4U-4 and perk Spit 9 !!!" ?
Me :D
IMO, Ta152 and F4U4 are overprized while a-ping-andyouarehistory-hispanomonster machines are unperked.
About perking P51D, G10 and D9. I have no much personal experience with P51, but in the case of D9, you better pick up one and experience yourself how "easy" is to get kills with it. G10 has a terrible control at hi speeds and is anything but a turner, perking it? Perhaps due its climbrate, but very cheap perk.
In the case of the Arado, you need almost 5 Arados to do a damage equivalent to a single Lancaster. You invert 300 perks to do a 14000lb damage with Arados at two quadrants range, while a single Lanc will do it at the other side of the map flying at 30k if necessary. Arado is, IMO, also overpriced.
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Ok just to set you all back on the track of my post:
this is to find out why the F4u4 is so high in price NOT a question of whether the perk system is working.
For me personally the perk system seems to do exactly what its intended to do.I dont go flying the best planes in the game all the time because they cost too much.
I absolutely hated the f4uc for killing me in ACM fights where anyother plane wouldnt get the kill, as in desperate sprays at 800-1.1k where 1 rnd would hit like a freight train! but i digress, what i was doing by questioning their values in perk costs was trying to equate their cost to their frequence of use in the MA.
I doubt theres anyone who could argue that the F4uc being perked didnt work and rid us of the F4uc only arena( ;)).BUT as an exponent of it getting perked even im willing to admit it could probably come down in price some/see more use before it becomes a problem again in terms of overuse (or if we gonna get all pedantic 'prolific' AKD :p)
What im hinting at is, ok, so the F4u4 is indeed a great fighter but have any of you got sick of it? been killed by it more times than you care to recall? do you see nothing but them flying around? I sure dont feel this about it, in fact ive never fought one i dont think.
Same for most perk rides really, I think the costs could be looked into a little more closely and adjusted so we see a little more of these aircraft, not too much but a little more.
after all like others have complained of here ie too many la7s/niks/spits/p51ds around, could to some extent be 'eased' if a few more of the people who fly these models could afford a 'resonably' costed perk ride now and then.
couldnt we reduce all costs for 1 tour to test the theory? see if we can find that perfect price/use value?
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hazed, IMO, F4U4 is perked only by its performance, being much better in every aspect than F4U1A/D. Unperking f4U4 will imply all the F4U1D/A pilots switching to F4U4, as well as a good portion of P47 and P51 pilots, and probably, eventual 1905/8 pilots too.
Said that, IMO, F4U1C is far more dangerous than F4U4 (IMO F4U1C is too cheap), so, F4U4 should be as expensive or even cheaper than the C version. Also, IMO, F4U1C or F4U4 are both much more dangerous in our actual MA than Ta152H.
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Adjust perk value of current perk planes- sure.
Perk any pre-1944 planes? Silliness.
Mandoble, I just can't understand how you can suggest nothing LW be perked, yet call for perks on much lesser performing aircraft. Loyalty is cool, but come on...
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Kieran, believe me, I'm not married with LW. P38, P47 and F6F are some non LW planes I like and fly.
My point is that G10/D9/Ta152H are not very efficient (measuring eficiency in kills per time) planes for the kind of arena we have. Of course, in a different MA environment more similar to an european theater, D9, G10 and P51 should be expensive perkies.
In the other hand, when you talk about "much lesser performing aircraft", what are you referring to? diving? substained climb? zoom climb? E retention? turning performance? Level speed? Acceleration? weapons? range? hi speed control? lo speed handling?
For our furball-oriented arena, performance is not as simple as pure top speed.
in the case of F4U4, it excels in all the categories except range and weapons. In the case of SpitIX it excels in all the categories except range and top level speed below 20k.
In relation with LW planes, IMO, 190A5 and 109G2 are more efficient planes for this arena than 190D9 and 109G10 respectively.
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I say, if a current or future plane has
multiple versions, like spits , 51, 47s, 109s, 190s and f4s. let the earliest
model be free and each later model
cost perks to use. each version above the base goes up by 5 or 10 perks.
example, F4U-1 (free), F4U-1d (5), F4U-1c (10), and F4U-4 (15 to 20). planes that have special preformance gains like 262 would be peked anyway. Tiff would be free and
Temp maybe (20).
I also think the highest(perk) versions like 262 f4u-4 and such, should have a ENY of 1.
Buffs ENY are also too high, they are not there to kill fighters thier job is to get to a target and drop bombs. as it is right now buff 9 out 10 times get more for killing
1 fighter then the fighter gets for killing
1 buff which is the fighters job. reduce the buffs ENY to 5 or less but raise the OBJ
value, to pay them off for making the target
and dropping thier bombs.
whels
Originally posted by Kieran:
Adjust perk value of current perk planes- sure.
Perk any pre-1944 planes? Silliness.
Mandoble, I just can't understand how you can suggest nothing LW be perked, yet call for perks on much lesser performing aircraft. Loyalty is cool, but come on...
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Top speed is the most predominant factor if you want to live. If you want to furball, you need more of a compromise of characteristics.
This is where you argument breaks down. You are suggesting reducing or eliminating perks on aircraft which, if flown within their design parameters, are unbeatable. If flown in a manner that is favorable to the older, slower aircraft, they lose. I suggest the planes are potentially unbalancing because, should anyone use the strengths of the planes, they completely outclass the opposition.
The argument "the arena is furball only" doesn't really count, because it isn't. I've climbed to kill plenty of 25K+ buffs since I have been back, and I sure wish I was in a Ta when I did.
I can just as easily call for perking the 190D9, because every time I chase one in a Spit IX it can run away at will. I'm upset that, when I choose to fly the 190's game I lose. (Not really, just making the point) This is the scenario that most often happens when I am in an early war plane. Just last night, I was in a Zero when two D9's started taking turns making passes. Did they get me? No. But I had no prayer of hitting them, while eventually one of them would have gotten lucky. They were in control, not me. They dictate the fight.
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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Many would like to see a P-40, F2, A6M2, KI43, Spit1, Stuka, and Bf109E added to AH at some point, someone please take the time to explain to me how early war A/C such as these could ever hope to survive in the MA without;
- 1. Rolling Planeset
- 2. Late war A/C (190D, P-51D, LA7, N1K2) being perked.
- 3. An early war planeset ARENA
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I think it's fine as it is.
The balance as it is seems reasonable to me. I'm not that keen on having say 20% of all planes in the air being perk planes.
Up the prices on everything, if anything.
Oh, and for the sods that only play 2-3 hours and therefore have to fly for two whole months before being able to afford a plane:
I'm a poor sod. I can only work 2-3 hours a week. The capitalistic system is biased against me - why am *I* not allowed to own a Ferrari, when the dude who works 80 hour weeks can?
Seriously, it should come down to percentage of your flying time, and in that, of course, comes ENY rating and your own skill.
I like it the way it is.
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What Whels said.
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Imagine:
La7, P51D,190D9, 109G10 at 5 perk cost
To be added to the list when earlier models are introduced: P38L, Nik2-J,P-47(M or N, whatever was the late war one that saw service).
F4uC 8 perks
F4u-4, Ta152, Tempest 15 perks
Arado 25 perks
Me262 150 perks
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That's a different argument altogether. The fact is those planes do NOT exist in the set yet, and until they do the point is moot.
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Here's what I keep seeing- arguments for perks based on how one plane fares against the proponent's favorite ride, or the possibility the perk IS the proponent's favorite ride.
I am for an arena that allows people to have a reasonable chance to fly and be successful in anything- which is indeed a tall order. I never have been a huge fan of the perk system, but even I must grudgingly admit it has done a good job in keeping the high-power planes to an acceptable minimum.
What happens when earlier planes get added? The Hurri seems to do okay, though only within its niche. The 202 is the least flown plane in the set, but even the most critical of that particular plane knows the reason people don't fly it more is the guns (or lack thereof). The environment is fine as it is, but adding more high-end cheaply might be a bad way to go.
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As is, I rarely see F4U-4s.
Seems to me the price is about right, I am simply dumbfounded as to why you people keep wanting to lower the costs of the late war uber-rides when you all complain enough as is about currently free late war uber-rides dominating the arena.
-SW
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The idiotic perk system is working to a certain extent.... Any plane that needs to be perked shouldn't be in the same arena as the rest of the planes. So... In that respect it works. The fewer perk planes I see the better. Not only is it "cost" but... stigma. Even the "any advantage is a fair advantage set" and especially the sky accountants.. can't stand the ruptured ego of getting killed in a plane that is acknwledged to be far superior to the rest.
The real solution of course is an "area" arena so that all planes can be flown fairly in the same arena with no perking needed..
lazs
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First let me say I think the F4U-4 should be perked for say 30 or 40 perkies.
However the single biggest problem with the F4U-4 in AH is.....
THE STINKING ICON TAG!!
When you fight a FW190 it does not say A5, A8 or D9.
When you fight a 109 it does not tell you F4, G2 or G10. Like wise for the Spit, P-47 P51 and the F4U-1 or -1D or C.
So why does the F4U-4 have the -4 tag?
Yes it is a good A/C, but not good enough to allow it to suvive when it is not the fastest at any alt. especially down low where it counts in AH.
Solution: Really quite simple. For all A/C in AH have generic Fighter/Bomber Icons from 3K to 6K. From 1K to 3K have generic FW190 or F4U tags. From 0 to 1K have A/C specific tags IE. 109G10 or F4U-4. This would mimic reality much better than the "Dog pile on the Perk plane" senario we have now.
The other problem with the F4U-4 is that it should be able to reach 440MPH at 20K and 447MPH at 25K. It is almost 20MPH slow at both alts. However there are so many complaints about top speed of various A/C such as the FW190A5 and Spit IX I did not want to jump on the bandwagon and complain.
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This is easy, just set the perks to the same values that were actually used in WWII.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
So why does the F4U-4 have the -4 tag?
Same reason the 202 and 205 have two different tags.
And the La5FN and La7.
-SW
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Kieran, whitch is a more efficient plane? One that is able to kill quickly but not able to flee by speed, or one really hard to get kills in but able to keep you alive?
In your example you neutralized TWO last generation LW fighters with a single Zeke. I'm seen a lot of times a mixture of 190s, 109s and even N1KJs trying to kill a single spit V with no success, and some of them dying to the hispano spray'n pray of the "lesser performer" plane.
IMO, kills per time is a much more important factor for a country than just kill/death. Kill/death is only useful for the personal score of an individual pilot. Just imagine the next only 2 countries situation: Bishland flying only SpitIX as fighter/attack, Rookland flying only 190D9 as fighter/attack. IMO, Rookland will get an impressive K/D ratio, but will loose the war quickly.
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for once I disagree with F4UDOA.. keep the identity icons. we need more info because we have so many different planes flying. Why give a person who chooses a superior plane even more of an advantage than he allready has?
lazs
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OMG! Is he actually insinuating that the Spit V should be perked now??? Wait, it's the Hispanos that is causing him to think about perking. Ok, perk the Hurricane IIc! It's got Hispanos; hell it's got 4 of them!
Funny, the N1K2 has 4 20mm (not hispanos, but big cannons nonetheless), most 109s and 190s can carry a 30mm (hmm, isn't that larger than 20mm?).
FWIW, most of my kills in the Spit V come under 300 yards. If that's spray-n-pray to you, then so be it, I spray-n-pray. To me s-n-p is when you're at long range and just start filling the area with shells hoping something hits, not putting the pipper on the target under 300 yards and firing a short, accurate burst. :p
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I didn't neutralize anything. I stayed alive. Those two guys were grabbing kills left and right. I could do nothing to stop them. If I hadn't been closer to friendlies they would have eventually killed me, too. I could never have run. I could never have killed them unless they screwed up royally.
It comes down to this, really. I will live longer BnZing through furballs than I will mixing it up with a Zeke or a Spit. I know, I've done it. I can do this with a 190 all day long. Yes, the La-7 can run me down if I get too slow, so I don't.
You have all the cards you need to win or live, you don't need to reduce the availability of viable enemies.
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personally I still say the perk point system sucked in the first place. It only rewards people with the time and or skill to get the points alienating the casual customer that pays just as much money to play the game. hell in head to head play and network games few people fly any of the f4u's they stick mostly with spits and 109s Iam assuming its the same in the main arena's specially with the perk system in place.
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You'd be wrong, Mayhem. History shows the arena will fly the dreaded blue beast that spits fire and death. Not that I care, but you would see far more 1C's.
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First, WOW the LW and big blue flyers on somewhat the same side of an argument. I am completely dumbfounded. I keep hearing Bill Murray saying “Dog’s and Cat’s living together, you know, mass hysteria”. :D
SW – that’s not really a good example using the 202 and 205. Using the 190’s and 109’s are better. Regardless having the icon point out you’re in a perk ride labels it for everyone to suicide run to kill the perk.
In agreement with F4UDOA that having the icons either be more generic or even aircraft type removed would make it easier for perk rides. I don’t want it easier to fly perk rides I just want the same opposition I would have normally in a non-perk. By easier I meant flying not purchasing, I do want it cheaper ;).
As far as cost, well, I do think it is too expensive. I’ll fly a 1D, you fly a 4, and at no time during the engagement will I be worried because it’s a 4. It does have some advantages but not overwhelming to justify the cost. I don’t think that it should be free I just think it should be cheaper.
Whels had some good comparisons with the P51D but when it comes down to it, the 4 should be listed at 60 because of the extra speed? That’s a pretty hefty cost for that speed in my opinion. I’m an energy fighter and like big blue and the mustang. Having flown both of these a lot it is hard for me to understand why the cost is at 60 when the P51/D9 (maybe the LA7) are nothing. That seems like a very large discrepancy for a small amount of difference.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want the P51 perked. I’m just saying if it’s not perked, comparably, why is the F4U-4 so much?
1) For having the cost of F4U-4 dropped.
2) For having the icon of the F4U-4 changed.
3) For having the TA152 included in the alterations of icon and perk prices ;).
Zippatuh
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Originally posted by Zippatuh:
SW – that’s not really a good example using the 202 and 205. Using the 190’s and 109’s are better. Regardless having the icon point out you’re in a perk ride labels it for everyone to suicide run to kill the perk.
Tell me, I'm very interested, on how you believe the 202/205 is not a good example?
Both are the same size. Both have the same outline. The only difference is two 20mm cannons sticking out of the wings on the 205. Oh, and the in-game paint scheme is slightly different.
The only reason it's not a good example is because it does not work for you to get the F4U-4 icon changed to a simple generic denotation such as F4U.
-SW
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Easy there fireball, you’re getting those matches and fluid out a little quick.
Point taken; change the icon to MACI. The reason I said that it wasn’t a good example is the infrequency that they are encountered. I don’t know much about 109’s but I believe there is more of a difference in flight characteristics between the 109’s we have in AH then the 3 non-perked variants of the F4 or 202/205. I may be wrong. In any case whenever those icons show up I treat em as G10’s or D9’s regardless.
Same thing with the LA5 and 7, just change it to LA. In any account I would rather get rid of aircraft identification all together. I think that’s another argument though.
This does present a question. Is it possible for you to contribute to a discussion without being condescending to an individual or a topic? I think I’ve seen some people in the past make reference to your age. I’m beginning to understand where those comments where coming from.
Zippatuh
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OK,
1. Nifty, I didn't say anything about perking anything much less a Spit V.
2. Swulfe, This is supposed to be a WW2 simulation which gives the most reality based on what is available with the current technology. Based on that you shouldn't know the differance between a C202 or a C205 at 6,000 yards, much less the difference between a F4U-1 and a -4. In fact all you should be able to distigush at that range is that it is an Aicraft of some size either single or multi engine. So your question should be why do we know the differance between a C202 and C205 at 6K? Not why should the F4U-4 be different. By the way there is not F4U-1C icon in AH. Why not?
3. Laz's. I think you do really agree with me. You alway's insist that dogfighting is the most fun part of the game. What would also be a fun part of the game is to actually surprise someone with your perk plane. For instance catching and LA7 with your F4U-4. Or surprising someone with a Ki-84 when they think they are jumping a Zero. Reality dictates that this should be a surprise until you are within 1,000yards anyway. This would not bring any additional advantage to the perk plane than they already have and deserve for flying it.
BTW, along the lines of fun. It is a funny thing that I have over 900 fighter perks currently and I almost never fly a perk plane. Even my beloved F4U-4. Why? Because it is no FUN to be chased by half the MA for flying it. I never get to fight a P-51D, FW190D-9, Tempest or TA152 to test the match of uber planes. Instead I get chased be every NIK2, Pony, and Spit on a suicide mission within a sector. This is neither fun nor realistic.
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No matter the frequency, it's still two planes currently modelled in the game and thus I believe it would be more appropriate to not make lopsided requests.
Such as "F4U-4 needs generic F4U icon!!". Sure, maybe it does. But if I point out something else identical to the very thing you state, it's "not a good example"..
You simply said "not a good example", no reason what-so-ever. I can take that any way I want because you don't leave me any material to base a better opinion on.
I mean, afterall, I could simply say that changing the F4U-4 icon to F4U is silly.
Be free to take that anyway you want.
The 202 will turn inside almost very plane, exceptions being A6M5b and SpitV. The 205 will only get inside a few in a turn.
The difference in turn performance, and more importantly, guns means that being able to tell the difference between the planes 6K away (where the 20mm guns wouldn't be visible at all) means you can choose your fight right off the gun.
"Is it possible for you to contribute to a discussion without being condescending to an individual or a topic?"
Sure, if the topic is worth it. This ain't, it's just a rehash of the same old tired arguments and counter-point arguments that it's just dejavu.
"I think I’ve seen some people in the past make reference to your age. I’m beginning to understand where those comments where coming from."
Ouch! Now that was a stinger! Hey, guess what? I don't care- I've met 14 year olds more grown up than half the 40 year olds on this board so you can stuff that useless comment right back up the same puckered orifice it came from.
-SW
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
2. Swulfe, This is supposed to be a WW2 simulation which gives the most reality based on what is available with the current technology. Based on that you shouldn't know the differance between a C202 or a C205 at 6,000 yards, much less the difference between a F4U-1 and a -4. In fact all you should be able to distigush at that range is that it is an Aicraft of some size either single or multi engine. So your question should be why do we know the differance between a C202 and C205 at 6K? Not why should the F4U-4 be different. By the way there is not F4U-1C icon in AH. Why not?
I wasn't asking a question, I was giving you the answer.
-SW
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I agree on the icon issue. If they look alike they should not have an icon telling them apart. Read: 202/205, f4u's/f4u-4, 190's/ta152 (though the larger wings are a dead giveaway), la5/la7.
"Seems to me the price is about right, I am simply dumbfounded as to why you people keep wanting to lower the costs of the late war uber-rides when you all complain enough as is about currently free late war uber-rides dominating the arena."
I think the word "free" is the key here. Putting the current perk planes at more than twice the perk cost of the "late war uber-rides dominating the arena" will put those that want the uber ride have to pay for getting the performance advantage they get from those planes, and pay even more for the planes that are currently perked. Lowering the cost of the currently perked planes will make it more accessible to all players, many can't play them because of either skill or time or clue issues. A 15 perk cost will see them being used semi-rarely, but used. Not like now that seeing an f4u4 or ta152 is so rare that EVERYONE gets a hardon and tries their best to HO them down. Perk points also would get used a lot and spent quickly this way. Think of it like a market :)
Put the current late uberwarides at 5 perk cost, and you may even get the 5 perkers going hunting AFTER the 15 perkers. The non-perked planes are still at the same risk from the perk planes regardless, but at least some control is put in place to prevent the current "latewaruberrides" planes with big performance advantage to be in overwhelming use.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
That's a different argument altogether. The fact is those planes do NOT exist in the set yet, and until they do the point is moot.
Perhaps part of the reason they don't exist is that HTC realizes how very little these early war planes would see use.
Personally I'd love a P-40, but I'd hafta be some kinda masochist to use it in the current MA.
Overall IMO all the perk planes are over-priced with the exception of the F4U-C.
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Make the icons just say "fighter" or "bomber" until you get real close. Hell, I can just guess La7 or Spit at d6 and have a 75% chance of being right.
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I rather believe the reason you don't see so many early-war birds is because of the niche AH filled when it began- a late-war extravaganza. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to fly the early war stuff you mentioned. It just seems to me that perking planes in preparation for planes that don't yet exist seems like putting the cart before the horse.
WRT perking late war planes currently not perked, tread lightly. 5 points may not sound like a lot to many of you guys, but to the new guy it places these planes out of reach. Now they get the joy of flying their 202's, Zekes, Spit V's, and 109F's against guys that can remain untouchable. What you wind up doing is removing equity from the sim. If we are truly headed down this path, at least wait until there are more planes from which to choose.
One does have to marvel at the spectrum of opinion on this issue. Perk 'em all! Perk none! Perk only the Allied stuff!
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I asked HT specifically bout the f4u-4 after i got sole attention of a furball and got shot down. Hes stated its singled out liek that BECAUSE its a perk plane.
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What is wrong with....
D6.0K to D3.1K only friendly green or NME red icon with generic Fighter or Bomber tag.
D3.0K to D1.1K Generic IE. Macchi, Spit, 109, F4U Tag.
D0.0K to 1.0K Specific plane type Icon IE. SpitV, FW190A5-D9, P51D/B or C202 C205.
This makes it possible to actually enjoy your perk points without attracting every perk hunting, HOing, suicide dweeb within miles.
Also it adds Realism!! A novel idea.
And it corrects the current flaw of having some A/C fly with no specific identity IE, the FW190D9, ME109G10 and F4U-1C.
This favors no Nation or specific plane type. It offers both perked and unperked planes the same opportunities.
So what's up? Is this not better?
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: F4UDOA ]
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Perk perk perk........fer crisakes give it up already. If we had the Sopwith Camel I'm damned sure someone would want to perk that. Quit your cryin' and fly damnit! <G>
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I don't dislike the idea, it just isn't a priority to me like getting more planes and goodies. Seems like a reasonable request, though.
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Pimpjoe it wasn't directed at you. It was a general blast directed at the perk-this-perk-that crowd.
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Oh, and for the sods that only play 2-3 hours and therefore have to fly for two whole months before being able to afford a plane:
I'm a poor sod. I can only work 2-3 hours a week. The capitalistic system is biased against me - why am *I* not allowed to own a Ferrari, when the dude who works 80 hour weeks can?
Ooooh! OOooh! Here's a way to let us poor workin' sods fly the perk planes, and to generate a little more revenue for HTC.
They ought to sell perkies, a dime each. Want that 262? Twenty bucks, please!
<g,d,r>
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Make the icons just say "fighter" or "bomber" until you get real close. Hell, I can just guess La7 or Spit at d6 and have a 75% chance of being right.
BS, agenda pusher!!!! :mad: :mad:
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Hehe, I got a live one here! Get the net! :D
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Karnak, thats because nearly 75% of the planes airborne at any time ARE spits or La7's. So he's right. Heeeheee
"WRT perking late war planes currently not perked, tread lightly. 5 points may not sound like a lot to many of you guys, but to the new guy it places these planes out of reach. Now they get the joy of flying their 202's, Zekes, Spit V's, and 109F's against guys that can remain untouchable. What you wind up doing is removing equity from the sim..."
I disagree. I believe it will actually help them rather than "taking it out of their reach". Many newguys just see that these planes gives them the biggest advantage and stick to them... not learning anything :( . They want to fly a pony? there's the B model. Its even faster. a 109? you got 3 models to choose from. a 190? also 3 models. La7? There's la5. This is why I said to perk the late war models that have earlier models in the game. In fact, all the above are NOT newbie planes except the la7. d9,g10 and 51D are planes that gets them killed quickly in the furball MA.
Plus they'd get more perks per kill by using "other" planes, making the jump to the 5 perk planes something of a victory.
Vets? Flying those planes wont get them enough perks that fast to regain those they lose.. it may also add some incentive to survive fights instead of mere 1-way ticket sorties. 5 perks at a time will drain the hoarded perkies quickly. And you can add the other late war plane models to the perk list once they get earlier models. Maybe some balance would be achieved in the MA, instead of having the late war monsters be the plane of choice because they're the only ones that can "equalize" the field against the hordes of late war planes already airborne.
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The trouble, dear Tac, is you assume everyone wants to learn. If you have to force someone to do it, it isn't very fun, right? If the game isn't fun, people don't play.
Your assumption that it makes better players may be totally true, but won't matter if there aren't people here to learn.
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"I asked HT specifically bout the f4u-4 after i got sole attention of a furball and got shot down. Hes stated its singled out liek that BECAUSE its a perk plane."
This proves, beyond any doubt, that HiTech knows what he's doing with the perk system.
J_A_B
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Don't perk anything. Let us fly what we wish to fly with no hinderence or additional cost. So what if everyone flies something blue with cannons or everyone flies something without propellers? It's not stopping anyone from flying LA7s, 109s or all the other aircraft.
Oh wait, that's right...It wouldn't provide the variety everyone wants to see and would decrease the enjoyment of flying a P51, LA7, 109 or Spit V. Hmmm, so what'll happen if Wildcats and Warhawks are ever introduced? Will the answer to us early-war fans be "but you can still fly your piddly Warhawk plane in the MA among LA7s and G10s because it's available in the hangar do don't perk our rides, let everyone fly what they want to fly"? I know, we've not come to this point yet and don't see early war planes coming any times soon. But they may.
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ever wish you never said anything? :p
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
"I asked HT specifically bout the f4u-4 after i got sole attention of a furball and got shot down. Hes stated its singled out liek that BECAUSE its a perk plane."
This proves, beyond any doubt, that HiTech knows what he's doing with the perk system.
J_A_B
Yep. I fly the -4 on occasion and it never fails I end up with a horde of drooling point dweebs chasing me all over creation and back.
Not a problem in my view, I choose to fly it and I also choose to fly it right, I've only lost 1 or 2, and in those cases, I really didn't give a crap lol.
I'm all for the perk system, although I do believe the -4 is a tad on the expensive side. Further, I don't really think HiTech is going to leave the early war planeset out of the picture forever, who knows maybe were in for suprise.
Tumor
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F4U4 rules. 60 points is good to go. Hell, I'd love to see an 80 point F4U4 with cannons. :D
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if you are furball dweeb you will lose all perkplanes there no matter cost. Because its quite normal that people fireing on Tempest,TA152 from D 1k. Specialy p47,51D,47`s,F4u,f6f,38 and rest of .50 cal spray and prey lames.
problem isnt in perk cost but in you.
Because when you see perk plane, your deafault goal it to make that boy as big pain as possible, so lames will attack no matter that they climbed up to 20k 10 mins and that tempest is in 6k with 5 on six... that high idiot will dive with his complex that you can fly somethinkg what he cant.
Dont be surprised that spit V will HO your TA152 ... he never saw that bird he just wanna have a look.
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Eaglc-
...or he MIGHT be diving down because killing that one perk plane earns him points equivalent to 3-4 kills?
Steven-
Sure, perk different planes WHEN the early war stuff is here. Have HTC announced the FM2, P-40, Oscar, 109E, Spit I, or Fokker XXI yet? No. Why cut the planeset by a third before then?
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why do you wanna earn perks when you will never use them ?
or you will lose them in 1. fureball
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Eaglc-
Do you have kids? Have you tried explaining economics to them?
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DOA.. we don't agree. I think the whole perk idea sucks. I think that "surprise" sucks if it is mereley... "choose your surprise" I think surprise is when someone sees a low slow P47 or hog and get's waxed because of skill not plane choice. I believe that nobody "earns" a perk ride and am very glad that they are such a stigma. for djas benifiet... "I have thousands of the damn things (perk points)" I use a few to kill GV's once in a blue moon in the 1C. The -4 is not worth the effort. I don't want to hunt lags or 51's. the -4 just makes for a boring Hog ride.
I will go farther.. I believe that every 109 is different enough to get it's own icon.. same for the 190's. Realistic?? You really didn't have to identify "which" variation you were fihgting in the war. It was assumed that it was the latest version or.. you knew what came up from what fields.. If it was a second line fighter then you just won more easily. You got lucky. To make matters worse.. the second line fighters were usually pretty war weary.
lazs
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DOA, I didn't mean you, was referring to Mandoble's hispano post. I shoulda quoted, my mistake.
4 model Hog should be a little less, it's not twice as good as the Ta152 is it?
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Check new thread for something that popped in me head last night. May be a solution to the perk issue. :)
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Originally posted by Nifty:
4 model Hog should be a little less, it's not twice as good as the Ta152 is it?
I agree than the F4U-4 is too pricey, but...
That is a falacious argument. Are the F4U-1C, Ta-152H-1, F4U-4, Tempest MkV and Me262A-1 infinetly better than the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7, P-51D or N1K2-J?
That is the same argument.
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Kieren, I don't get the comment about cutting the planeset by 1/3. My mentioning the early-war planes was really an example. So if an F4U-4 and Tempest are that much greater of a killing machine than the LA7 and a few other nasties and have to be perked, would this line of thinking then apply to these same LA7s and D9s if we ever see Wildcats and Warhawks? I already know the answer because the threads touch upon it quite a bit. This relates to the topic about how what you fly does impact what others can fly and that "fly what you want to fly" is a Catch-22. I would totally love to be able to fly Warhawks and Wildcats but I'm not good enough a stick to ever have any enjoyment doing it in the MA because I'd be a quick snack for the billions of late-war aircraft people. I actually just think it interesting how (if the planeset were more fuller, you'd really see this) the freedom of choice ends up limiting a "valid" choice in itself. When it's free ME262 night, I dare you to fly a P38 or G6 throughout and see if your enjoyment has mutated. This is another one of them things where you can't please everyone.
I've personally only flown a perk plane once in the MA since April, and that was an F4U-1C which I neither got a kill in nor was killed in. That's it. To be honest, I'm fine w/ the system as it is overall, but I like to test any rule.
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Steven, you misunderstand me. I am 100% for controlling the planeset in some manner IF and WHEN there are enough early-war planes to justify it. Where we disagree is when that situation exists. You think that situation exists, I'm not convinced at this point. I also believe it is a dangerous experiment for HTC, because the user base is growing at this point. This would suggest that, at least in the short term, they are on the right track.
Would I love to see Oscars, P-40's, F4F's, 109E's, Spit I's, Hurri I's, He111's Dorniers, Vals, Kates, etc., heck yes. Do I agree the arena perk system will need adjustment if these planes make it in, heck yes. They don't appear in our list yet, therefore I think dramatically changing the perk arrangement in anticipation of them, especially since there has been no indication of their impending inclusion, is premature.
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Kieren,
Way cool. But we actually agree, that's why I'm confused. I don't think I made it sound like I want to perk the LA7. I was just using early planes as an "example." In fact, I started everything by saying unperk everything and let everyone fly what they want to fly. But then I got into my own devil's advocate thingy. Maybe that confused. I guess I was playing two sides of the fence, but to illustrate that many of the points stated by players sort of contradict each other at times. My biggest gripe are with those people who say to me "but you can fly the F4F any time it's introduce w/out needing to perk the LA7 or N1K" and yet they stand behing perking the ME262, F4U-4 and other aircraft because there are too many (so let's restrict people from flying what they want to fly) or they are too powerful a foe for their LA7, D9 or N1K. Anyway, I am actually fine w/ the perk system as it is right now and do not call for any change. An F4U-4 is to a 109D9 what a 109D9 is to a Wildcat...and I hope that is remember in the future.
(Anyway, I'd bet money we don't see a Wildcat or Warhawk for more than a year.)
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"(Anyway, I'd bet money we don't see a Wildcat or Warhawk for more than a year.)"
and if they do come in without having a drastic change in the perk system or adding a RPS arena, they'd be wasted effort to model. Just as you dont see hurricanes up in the same numbers as la7's.. because a single la7 can butcher them and get away.
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Originally posted by Steven:
Kieren,
An F4U-4 is to a 109D9 what a 109D9 is to a Wildcat...and I hope that is remember in the future.
.)
mmm no,, F4U-4 is to a F4U-1 what D9 is to an A5, or spit14 to spit9. the 51d d9 and fu4-4 are comptemporaries of each other.
whels
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Whels-
You do realize you are attributing that quote to the wrong person? Those are Steven's words, not mine. ;)
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Whels-
You do realize you are attributing that quote to the wrong person? Those are Steven's words, not mine. ;)
yep sorry, cutter went too far :), but u wanted to say it anyway :O.
whels
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OK PEOPLE LETS WRAP THIS ONE UP: state your camp be it 1,2 or 3 or ALL
1. ALL those that think the F4u4 is a tad too high in perk cost
3.ALL those that agree perking the late warplanes now would be too early say aye :)
2.ALL those that agree that if we get more early planes the later versions should be perked?
easy :) mwahaha
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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4. I want all my choices put in correct numerical order.
5. All of the above. :)
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Ditto
BTW hazed, great winging with you in -4s that night in the TA, lots of fun killing 262s when neither they nor I was worried about losing perks.
kbman
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Originally posted by hazed-:
[QB]OK PEOPLE LETS WRAP THIS ONE UP: state
1. ALL those that think the F4u4 is a tad too high in perk cost
2.ALL those that agree that if we get more early planes the later versions should be perked?
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Whels,
I thought it was pretty simple but you aren't understanding. What I stated was an example in terms of superiority and the perk heirarchy and not a lesson in aircraft-variants. The F4U4 is perked because it is superior to the LA7 or D9 or almost everything else flying in the MA. So if a superior plane is to be perked, what'll happen to the LA7s and others if Wildcats, Warhawks and A6M2s are introduced? And thus the statement "an F4U4 is to a D9 what a D9 is to a Wildcat." I didn't think it was that hard to grasp.
And yeah, I don't think early planes will be introduced and why I originally stated I will either supplement Aces High with "Target Rabaul" or maybe even TR will become my main mount and AH supplements it.
(Yum yum yum)
http://www.targetrabaul.com/images_snaps/sbd3_121301.jpg (http://www.targetrabaul.com/images_snaps/sbd3_121301.jpg)
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Steven ]
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Chutes Should be 3 perk points.
I'd love to see fatty's eyes as he pulls the cord to find out he only had 2 perkies :)
NUTTZ
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1:Agree
2 :Disagree
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"ALL those that agree that if we get more early planes the later versions should be perked?"
[sigh]
The perk system wasn't meant to move people into different airplanes. It wasn't supposed to be a half-baked RPS. It was meant for one thing and one thing only--to allow HTC to add certain "interesting" planes without having them dominate the arena.
The day the Spit or P-51D has 30% of all usage in the MA, perk 'em. But don't perk them because they're better than your F4F or Me-110 or Hurricane. The early-war planes are there for scenarios and possibly the CT.
J_A_B
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J_A_B I agree 100% on what you are saying but if that is the sole criterea then why were the f4u4,arado,tempest,ta152 and me262 perked?
they never got use in the "30%" you gave as the arena flood level did they?
I think somewhere along the line HTC decided to do the rarer aircraft that no one has flown in sims before(or were very uncommon types) and decided the perk system would reflect their rarity too.
If this is not the case then the perk of the F4u4 is even more of a puzzle
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They will ovbiously reach that level if un-perked, or they have some other unique reason for being perked. There is no need to leave them unperked for a while to see. Take the F4U-4 as an example:
The P-51D is already one of the most common planes in AH, usually accounting for roughly 10% of the kills in a tour. That's enough usage where some people already feel this airplane needs to be perked. Now compare it to the F4U-4. The F4U-4 is better, often MUCH better, in every aspect. If you left the F4U-4 unperked it would indeed see excessive usage. So it's perked.
The Ta-152 is perked not because it would ever dominate the arena (it obviously wouldn't), but because at high altitudes it is untouchable. In other words it ruins the balance of the arena. There is nothing except a jet that can compete with it over 30K. If there were other planes with such good performance up there, then there would be absolutely no need to perk the Ta-152.
The reason the planes like the P-51D, 109G-10, FW-190D-9, Spit IX, N1K2-J and LA7 don't need to be perked is because they balance each other out and don't dominate the arena. None of these planes has a whopping advantage over the others and none of them sees excessive usage.
Perking these planes to make, say, a P-40 more viable would be using the perk system for something it isn't intended for. That wouldn't be perking a plane because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the arena; it would be blanketly perking a group of planes to force people to fly different ones. And that, IMO, is not what the perk system was designed for.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Perking these planes to make, say, a P-40 more viable would be using the perk system for something it isn't intended for. That wouldn't be perking a plane because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the arena; it would be blanketly perking a group of planes to force people to fly different ones. And that, IMO, is not what the perk system was designed for.
J_A_B
Don't forget, also, that these planes would have high enough ENY that people *would* fly them. In X brand online flight sim, you'd occasionally see people in P-40s and F4Fs, just for the heck of it. Getting a whole load of perks for a single kill would undoubtedly motivate people to fly them.
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<<<In other words it ruins the balance of the arena.>>>
<<<Perking these planes to make, say, a P-40 more viable would be using the perk system for something it isn't intended for.>>>
Make up your mind. Do you want balance or don't you?