Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DarkglamJG52 on May 21, 2002, 03:32:28 PM
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Interesting post here (http://www.targetware.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000364.html)
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Looks like the original "smoothing code" patent.
I seem to remember that HS even admitted that nobody has really improved on Dale's original idea.
AKDejaVu
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Er... smoothing code seems to be a small portion of it. But the synchronus babble is basically just setup for it;)
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Looks like the original "smoothing code" patent.
I seem to remember that HS even admitted that nobody has really improved on Dale's original idea.
AKDejaVu
Didn't HT also post in that thread, in response to HS asking how much of the old code he was using, HT said none, he had started from scratch?
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I don't remember that... I do remember HT saying he started with a blank screen on AH.
I also remember HS admitting they hadn't changed the smoothing code at all.
I do believe that the code might be a little different... but the things covered by that patent are not. The smoothing effect seems very similar to warbirds... with the posibility of additional complexity. I do remember in AH that accelerations would continue infinitum... can't say I've seen that in AH. Though.. to be honest... I don't know if WB still does it.
AKDejaVu
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I'm employed by a private company that works with the US Patent Office. Although I'm usually working with Foreign patents, our Office does large traffic in Patent Applications and File Histories. I'll head over there and do some public user research on my lunch break today (or ealier if I can come up with a pretense for getting out of the office).
-Sikboy
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A method of rendering an object in a multiplayer electronic game virtual space such that time latency effects are reduced, wherein the object is controlled by a first one of a plurality of user computers in communication with each other across a communications network, wherein each user computer executes a game loop that renders objects within the virtual space, and wherein game loop execution on the plurality of user computers is asynchronous, the method comprising the steps of:
I highlighted the exact place where I stopped reading and gave up my feeble attempts to ever understand how these games work. To me, the small planes that appear on my screen might just as well be magic.
to all of you who understands (or even creates) stuff like that.
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It would appear that this patent and associated topic has reared it's head in a most ugly way.
A "clickable" short cut for those who need it:
http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22608
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If things get hairy, that patent should be pretty easy to shoot down, the generic wording of it covers pretty much any implementation of "dead reckoning" and similar algorithms, present in any online game nowadays. Many of them are public knowledge and many variations and optimizations are available.
No FPS or MMORPG would be playable without "A method of rendering an object in a multiplayer electronic game virtual space such that time latency effects are reduced".
Other than that only straight source code ownership or contract issues could be a basis for litigation and such.
As shown in many other cases in the IT industry, it seems like the last desperate resource of a dying company.
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Quote:
"No FPS or MMORPG would be playable without "A method of rendering an object in a multiplayer electronic game virtual space such that time latency effects are reduced". "
Yep. Except that Warbirds, Aces High, and Papyrus Racing Games are light-years ahead of anyone else in the Multiplayer-games-with-complex-physics department. The rest, if not poor, are merely adequate. So, "many variations and optimizations" may be available, but they suck hind tit compared to these three.
And HT had a hand in two of 'em....
C.
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You can't patent a computer program. Copyright yes, but not patent. They are talking about changing that, but at the moment a computer program cannot be patented, and neither can the concepts used to create it.
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You can't patent a computer program.
Someone needs to tell the United States Patent Office.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F6042477
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this looks like a patent to me . lol
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Originally posted by Ozark
Someone needs to tell the United States Patent Office.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F6042477
I don't know enough about programing, so I'm not sure how this is going to sound to a programer.
But Hitechs patent is not on a program per se. What is being patented is the process which is used in the program. I think Dowding is correct, if it were the program (code) it would be copyrighted, not patented.
-Sik
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Software patents are possible in the USA, but no in the EU. Some groups are pushing for them, but many are opposing them.
In my opinion, most software aspects are not patentable, as they reflect just patterns, algorithms and methods commonly used, which are just encapsulated in some software and patented. Just look at all those stupid user interface patents being bandied around.
The major problem with patents is that they have been turned from a legal tool to protect innovation into a tool to stifle competition, thus failing miserably in their original intent.
Patents, copyrights and legal mumbo jumbo aside, from my perspective as a software developer and my interest on game programming, Hitech stands as a genius. I have shown AH to colleages who I admire as excellent programmers and have seen their jaws drop when told about the features and the size of the team behind the game.
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Originally posted by takeda
Just look at all those stupid user interface patents being bandied around.
Would those fall under the umbrella of "design" patents?
-Sik
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Thankyou sikboy.
Software patent law is a grey area that needs clarification. In Europe they are trying to do that with an EC directive called the 'Patentability of Computer-implemented Inventions'. Currently, in Europe, patents are even excluded for the underlying principles, which was challenged by IBM a few years ago. The copyrighted code has always been excluded and that will not change anytime soon.
BTW, I had an interview for position as a trainee patent attorney last week - I researched this in case they asked me to demonstrate my interest in current IP issues.
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Originally posted by Dowding
BTW, I had an interview for position as a trainee patent attorney last week.
My God man...what possessed you to seek that job? Patent law is the most horrible area of law there is...closely followed by tax law.
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I have a physics degree and many years ago I did consider a career in law when deciding the science versus arts route.
Scientific innovation has always fascinated me and I like a challenge. :)
I doubt I'll get the position - it's been three years since I graduated and I have a non-legal, non-scientific management job. I thought I'd give it a shot all the same.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
My God man...what possessed you to seek that job? Patent law is the most horrible area of law there is...closely followed by tax law.
I don't know about Europe, but there's a ****load of money in it here in the states.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Dowding
I doubt I'll get the position - it's been three years since I graduated and I have a non-legal, non-scientific management job.
It creeps me out that Dowding and I were seperated at birth :eek:
I don't suppose you spent any time in the Navy? lol.
-Sik
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Money isn't too great for the first year...
Trainees (no examinations passed)
£ 15,000 to £ 25,000 pa
Technical assistants (close to qualification)
£ 25,000 to £ 45,000 pa
Newly-qualified attorneys
£ 50,000 to £ 70,000 pa
Attorneys with 3 – 5 years' post-qualification experience
£ 65,000 to £ 90,000 pa
Head of IP Department (industry)
£ 90,000 to £150,000 pa
Partner in private practice
£ 90,000 to £300,000+
The exams are ultra-tough and take 5 years on average to complete - there are only 1800 qualified patent attorneys in the UK and 50% of them are over 50. I decided it would be a good time to try and get in.
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lol Sik :D
No I'm only 24 years old - I was planning a career in the RAF until the epilepsy hit though.
How old are you and what's your degree in?
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I don't know about Europe, but there's a ****load of money in it here in the states.
-Sik
Yeah, its same here in Europe. Most money is in Patent law and tax law. Incidentally, those areas are the most dreadfully boring ones too...you'd have to be a real money slut to work with that I suppose.
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iEN's stock reports this will explain all (http://biz.yahoo.com/e/020401/ient.ob.html)
If you look this over you will see that iEN has NO capital to work with, I'm suprised that their doors are still open.
no wonder they've resorted to lawsuits.
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Bill pretty much aluded to it last year in The iEN Stock and Financials Report (http://bbs.warbirdsiii.com/showthread.php?threadid=3985&highlight=patent) from last summer.
MiniD
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Normally I`d just LMAO - but given Mr. Stealey might as well be successful, I say "what an *******".
This is exactly the point that brought me to opposing software patents in the EU. I think I`m moving over and get a patent on beating the monkey (or however it`s best called), because I THOUGHT OF IT FIRST.
What an *******.
The all-stars words are another word for the human rectum.
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Originally posted by Dowding
How old are you and what's your degree in?
30, Degree is in International Relations (think we went over this before once).
-Sik
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Originally posted by Mini D
Bill pretty much aluded to it last year in The iEN Stock and Financials Report (http://bbs.warbirdsiii.com/showthread.php?threadid=3985&highlight=patent) from last summer.
MiniD
Ha! Good find Deja.
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Thank you Roscoroo!
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By the way... do not be dismissive about this issue. Bill Stealy does have a leg to stand on here. The courts are somewhat umbiguous when it comes to the contract honoring side of the house (even if iEN didn't make their payments... the courts could overlook that) but are somewhat strict on the patent infringement side of the house. The case is strong enough that some serious court time would be required to resolve the issue.
MiniD
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Absolutely.
Correct me if I'm wrong anyone... Did I see in that other thread (or does anyone know)... I thought I saw someone post that HT no longer even uses that particular code in AH. So... while I suppose Bill could wrangle away the patent and make some money if he's successful, it's not as if it could cause serious trouble to HTC. Do I have that right?
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I suppose the code is different... but you don't patent code. You patent a method for implimentation. If the method is the same... there is going to be problems.
It's not a cut and dry scenario... that's for sure.
MiniD
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Lets see... As a example ... Im a big company i've been losing money and i cant buy anymore toys,,, ive sold all my stock at 50% value .(which is now worthless) Ive got debtors climbing all over me. I cant afford to pay my employee's ( hmmm perhaps i'll offer them more stock. ) ... I need $$$ to pay off my beach house in the canary's... (hmmm well Hell Lets sue some people ,,,Perhaps they'll settle out of court,,, befor the judge realizes im full of it)
sooo if this works I get to run off to my beach house W/my mistresses sisters sister. Woohooo.
.....Gets phone book out.....
(now lets see crooked lawyers that work for contingency )
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problem could be hosing HTC in legal bills. Tie them up and drain them dry, then no competition. Wonder if HT's RV8 is paid for yet?
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Actually Dnil... I don't know that iEN has the finances to do that. That's usually the tactics of a larger company with a smaller one.
It will definately cost HTC money and definately slow things down a bit. The court really decides the rest.
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but if Ien has the lawyers on contigency then it doenst matter how much money they have. Thats what worries me.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Thankyou sikboy.
BTW, I had an interview for position as a trainee patent attorney last week - I researched this in case they asked me to demonstrate my interest in current IP issues.
Dowding, Can I ask where you applied? I work as a contractor supporting their in-house application servers, in Crystal City, VA.
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Originally posted by Dnil
but if Ien has the lawyers on contigency then it doenst matter how much money they have. Thats what worries me.
That depends... if there is no case... contigency is not really an issue since its not likely they'll be collecting... and HTC isn't big enough to play some kind of "they'll pay us just to make us go away" game. The pieces just don't add up for that.
I'm trying to find the logic in Bill's move here and I don't see any. All I can see is some kind of last ditch effort to make a buck... at the cost of throwing everything left over into it. My biggest worry is that mr. stealy will turn it into a personal vendetta and continue long after WB has seen its end.
MiniD
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Hortlund.
You are completely correct. It is magic.
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That's spelled m-a-j-i-c...
;)
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Originally posted by Mini D
That depends... if there is no case... contigency is not really an issue since its not likely they'll be collecting... and HTC isn't big enough to play some kind of "they'll pay us just to make us go away" game. The pieces just don't add up for that.
I'm trying to find the logic in Bill's move here and I don't see any. All I can see is some kind of last ditch effort to make a buck... at the cost of throwing everything left over into it. My biggest worry is that mr. stealy will turn it into a personal vendetta and continue long after WB has seen its end.
MiniD
Who says HTC is the only company thats being targeted?
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I look at the companies that might be targetted, and none of them are in any different position.
MiniD
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Dingbat - a small private firm in Derby - in the UK. :)
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The rumors are correct.
IEN Servered us with papers Thursday when I was at the con.
And we have never used the method describied in the pattent.
HiTech
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This is funny. A few months back, an old co-worker of mine at Lockheed-Martin sent me a quote from a mailing list of simulation engineers that do operation research for the DoD. In the email, a guy from one of the commercial research labs was saying that they had received a letter from a game company claiming that they and all other research labs doing DIS and HLA simulation work for the DoD were in violation of their latency patents and wanted money from them. The consensus was that these guys had a screw loose. The consensus was that this patent (which was in Dale’s name but I’m certain that it was IEN rattling the sabers) was little more than fairly obvious derivations of much earlier published works like DIS that have been around for decades. So, they were putting out a request for gathering up documentation to slap these guys down with, including input from the lead engineer who worked on the original DIS implementation. I never did hear anything more about it so I guess they sweety-slapped who ever it was back into place.
With no disrespect intended towards HT, if you’re willing to pay a lawyer, you can get almost ANYTHING patented. Now whether the patent is actually defendable in a court challenge is a whole ‘nother ballgame.
Wab
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Wild Bill has become Andrew Loeb.
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cc Wab, unless that's not the point, but rather to disrupt competition by imposing the burden of legal defense on the target (or just fish for cash: see SCO vs. IBM).
Tort reform now! (see, it's applicable to the OT board after all).
On a technical level, any method that doesn't involve a dynamic time-averaging of the packet timestamps to figure out the actual latency between client and host doesn't apply to this patent (assuming I'm reading it right), among other possible exclusions.
Heck any UDP packet game implementation probably renders this method obsolete as the method as described seems to depend on in-order packet reception.
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AKWabbit. That was him (Stealey)
From a link posted in the topic on this on AGW. My how the plot thickens.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1061915/000115752302001447/a4290695.txt
About 80% of the way downthe lawsuit is mentioned. They also lost the the right to brand the name "Warbirds" too it would seem.
Westy
(I have faith that the good folks at HTC will perservere. And I honestly hope HiTech and Co. are able to squeak slap the scum from iEN into next year.)
p.s. (DocDoom? Lad must be lost. That charm school they want to send you to is two flights down, third door on your left ;) )
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Originally posted by WestyAH
(I have faith that the good folks at HTC will perservere. And I honestly hope HiTech and Co. are able to squeak slap the scum from iEN into next year.)
I sincerely hope so but so many times it seems like the law protects the wrong people sometimes.
I'm glad I'm no longer supporting that imbecile's bid to destroy another simulation and the community around it. Those that still subscribe will do so in the full knowledge that their money is helping Wild Bill further this action. Of course some will try to rationalise it and make excuses but they lack the conviction to make such a statement. If it was Warbirds under threat they would expect the same thing and if it was'nt for the talent of people like Hitech, Killer, Pyro etc there would not be any Warbirds so they pay to destroy their heritage.
Perhaps HTC could set up an option on the accounts page to subtract a second months subscription and put it into a fund to pay legal fee's? I would pay this gladly.
Perhaps it's time to make this lawsuit known to the wider sim audience, to as many forums and newsgroups so that people know just who they are giving their money to when they subscribe to an iEN product.
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The original forum link has apparently been removed from targetware.net.
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Don't read too much into that... Targetware changed their BBS software and didn't recover the old messages when they did it.
MiniD
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Gotcha. I thought it was a new post and it suddenly disappeared.
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I tend to agree with you Revvin. The news is out there already and beginning to spread and IMO the best thing for us players to do is nothing dramatic. I think we should simply promote AH for the game and HTC's merits I would recommend compassion for those who choose to make that moral decision. We should welcome, make them feel at home and bend ove rbackwards to help them. (Unless it's Cabby or Kekule ;) )
However many of them have no where to go being PC challenged and all. For those handicapped by thier ill advised Macintosh gaming rig purchase it's WB III or WWIIO. Which, IMO, means WBIII or nothing.
As for me. If HTC or one of thier close friends (LoneWolf, Sharkbait or NoBaddy? ) set up a fund for legal assistance donations I'd contribute.
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Perhaps you're right Westy. I've tried not to post on this but followed the thread over the weekend but now it's been confirmed by Hitech perhaps emotions got the better of me. I've been a player of Warbirds for years and a player of Aces High for some time (although not as long as most here and perhaps not as frequent) It really feels like Wild Bill is going to tear up the history of Warbirds. Regardless of players loyalty to one sim or another Wild Bill cares little for the communities around his own sim or another as he pursues a quick buck. I got out of that sim just in time it seems.
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Hey thanks Westy! :)
If HT ever decides to model a Ki-43 (and if it isn't perked), then I will hunt you down and ping away at your plane until no more paint can be seen. :p
You make it seem as if I hate Aces High. I don't, but as an IJ and early war fan there isn't alot here for me that I can't find elsewhere. I do love the Ki-43 and Ki-84, what can I say?! Plus there's a tiny handful of players here that pretty much ruined my anticipation for AH way back when it was open beta. On the other hand, my favorite ex-squaddie nopoop is here so who knows...
As for WildBillGates, the last nail is currently being pounded in his own coffin.
I only hope T:R actually exists sometime in the near future.
Kekule
18th Sentai
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http://www.phil.frb.org/files/br/brq101bh.pdf
And you can patent code in Europe if you satisfy the technical effect standard.
Originally posted by Dowding
You can't patent a computer program. Copyright yes, but not patent. They are talking about changing that, but at the moment a computer program cannot be patented, and neither can the concepts used to create it.
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post in poor judgement.... corrected
Jeff
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"You make it seem as if I hate Aces High"
Nah. Just yanking your chain. Which is why the smiley is next to your handle and not Cabby's :) It used to be easier but in the last year most of those who'd been game for some ribbing have eithger come to AH or left WB's for other pastures.
I will be the first to admit though that you can sound like the Iraqi Disinformation Minister when you post in AGW about what AH is and isn't, as well as AH not having a KI-43. :)
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
place.
With no disrespect intended towards HT, if you’re willing to pay a lawyer, you can get almost ANYTHING patented. Now whether the patent is actually defendable in a court challenge is a whole ‘nother ballgame.
Wab
I dunno wabbit. Try buttin heads w the oil company, who, by the way, owns the office that owns the office that owns the patent office.
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Maybe we could mount a huge b17 mission to fly off map and find the WB MA and just pothole the whole damm place.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Maybe we could mount a huge b17 mission to fly off map and find the WB MA and just pothole the whole damm place.
ROFL! :D
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If this is the code that keeps the planes from hopping around (that smoothing code) I can't see where they have a case, but then I 'm not a laywer. I remember the guy who was instrumental in creating Fighter Ace was able to do so because he came up with a "new" efficient smoothing code. At least that's what I was told in the mid 90's when he still owned VR1. Fortunately for me, Jimbear found AH in Beta and got me to fly it. :)
To me, this sort of reminds me of Henry Ford trying to patent the automobile or the Wright brothers trying to patent the airplane. The courts said they had the rights to THEIR auto and airplane designs, but not ALL auto and airplane designs. I'm not sure if that is a good analogy, but that's how it seems to me anyway.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Maybe we could mount a huge b17 mission to fly off map and find the WB MA and just pothole the whole damm place.
Wonder if the USAF is thinking the same thing bout their lawsuit?
:D
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Originally posted by hitech
The rumors are correct.
IEN Servered us with papers Thursday when I was at the con.
And we have never used the method describied in the pattent.
HiTech
Damn if that isn't surreal on all sorts of levels - must take you right back to working for the idiot. Sued for using your own invention, even though you're not! I wonder if he's trying to achieve a measure of immortality through association with Dilbert's PHB. Were it not for all the legal crap attached it would be hysterically funny. Wild Bill is going even further South than Voss in the credibility department.
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Originally posted by Dnil
but if Ien has the lawyers on contigency then it doenst matter how much money they have. Thats what worries me.
I've been on both ends of the legal equation over the years...if the attorney handling the case in doing it on contingency then AH is home free....this is not the type of case that a quality firm handles this way. The issue is to complex and is most likely to be decided by a judge....not a jury, although that would certainly benifit AH (IMO).
From my limited understanding the concept...not the actual code...is at the heart of the issue. If Dale can demonstrate a concept outside the scope of the patent during the pre trial phase he'll get the suit booted fairly easily...otherwise he's sledding up hill. If WB can document that the underlying concept is within the scop of the patent then AH is in a difficult situation.
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Humble,
Agreed, but (and here's the big butt!)...IF IEN breached the contract through non-payment for the exclusive licensing fees, then they have no grounds for the suit, as it is based upon their suppossed exclusive license of this patented product.
So IEN breached before they could ever be harmed by the non-exclusive use of the product (as it pertains to HTC anyway)
I would attack the breach issue first, as all is goes mute if IEN did, in fact, break the contract.
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i was under the impression that war birds was an almost exact copy of air warrior ( hacking involved ) who holds their patents?
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
i was under the impression that war birds was an almost exact copy of air warrior ( hacking involved ) who holds their patents?
Neg. WB's (later) and Air Warrior (earlier)were developed separately. Perhaps you are referring to the Russian FreeHost--which was essentially a pirated/hacked copy of WB's. The Russians were able to get away with it due to some patent law wierdness in Russia -- it still exists.
h
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I took a look at the other thread, man some of the guys over there suck.
Rude jerks, I hope they do not come here.
How can you defend this? LOL
I just can not see how anyone could stick with a company when the guy running it is such a jerk. Well then again, look at the way some of those guys are acting over there.