Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mason22 on May 22, 2002, 11:43:29 AM
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can any of you resident 190 experten share your knowledge of the different characteristics and how to fly the AH 190s? preferrably the 190 A8, D9 and F8. When and where they should be used.
thks.
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LOL I love the title :D
But I dont know much about the 190 other than I cant fly it lol :)
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It's impossible to fly. If you see a bish Spit coming just bail out.
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Speed is the key, you never have enough. When in 190 (A models), speed is the most important asset - even more than alt.
When you are fast in 190, you can do whatever other planes can, and sometimes even better. If you are slow, you simply can't match other planes.
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Although I'm certainly not an expert, I would give you this peice of advice:
The snap roll can spoil a Bish Spit's gun solution quick. If a spit dives on me while I'm... ummm.. "extending" in an A8, I like to let him close to 1000-800, then give the stick a violent jerk to the lower/right position (to pull you up and to the right). You'll enter an accelerated stall right away, and the engine torque will flip you over and to the left. So from the spits POV, you start a roll to the left, then freak out and flip to the left. I imagine they'll figure it out, but it's usually good for one pass. Hopefully they will fly by you, and you can get a snapshot off.
I'm sure Nath or another Uberjock can use this as an offensive manuever or something, but that's all I have.
-Sikboy
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Mason, do a search in the net and try to find DocDoom "The Butcherbirds Guide to a free lunch". Its a nice guide for learning the FW way, it was designed for Warbirds but I think that it is good for AH pilots as well.
GOT IT! http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/burbanks_books_simulator.htm
Both guides are *very* good.
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Fly the 190 like a Yo-Yo. Up and down up and down.. if you try any fancy tricks you will get tangled and die.
I dont like it much because its a specialty fighter.. you have to fly it one way or you're screwed. Me, I prefer the middle... my p38 can E-fight and can hold its own in a turnfight (at least for a little while hehe). A 190 oth, is a total dog when slow... kurt tank shouldve designed an automatic ejection seat if the speed ever dropped below 250 mph ;)
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I dont really know much about 190s we have in AH right now. BUT I know that some of them can be flown like a runstang... :D
Muahahahaha..... :p
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thanks fella's
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I agree with the speed thing that everyone is saying, it's life... I don't fly 190's a whole lot, but I've become fairly good in vertical stalling manuevers using flaps and such. Killed an F4U-D the other day with that move, I had good speed, missed the first pass and then pulled a vertical stalling flop (works way better in P38 since it has counter-rotating propellers to nullify torque) but with rudder finesse you can control it. I wonder why the Germans raved about the 190 as a great plane, from things I've read it was a fighter pilot's dream for the LW. Any validity to that statement? Thanks.
Jason
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Does the A8 carry the most powerfull guns in the game?
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Originally posted by Tac
kurt tank shouldve designed an automatic ejection seat if the speed ever dropped below 250 mph ;)
Lol they never woulda been able to take off :D
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Being a Luftwaffe type and liking the 190 far more than the 109 I have to say the 190 is a great plane if you treat it right.
It's strenghts:
-VERY VERY GOOD diving performance, this plane doesn't compress easy
-Excellent High speed handling (hell i can keep with spits for like 1/4-1/2 turn depending on my E situation)
-Excellent Firepower (I like the 190a8 for historical reasons and it's Firepower) it's the Nik2 of the Luftwaffe (Well at least in firepower) 4 20mms really say something
-Good speed (190a8 does 408MPH around 20k 190a5 is around there and d9 is even better
-Roll rate
weaknesses:
-Low speed handling
-sustained turning
-the way it stalls
-visibility over the nose (not to a very great extent
These are general Assessments, as any 190 pilot will know there are major differences between all 4 190 models we have in Aces High. I will give a detailed Description of each.
190A5
This is the Dogfighter of the 190 series it turns decent, accelerates good, rolls almost as good as a 190 and has about half the firepower of the 190a8 (the 20mm mg-ffs aren't really worth carrying IMO) and good climb rate. It is also fast around the same speeds as the 190a5 (And i believe it's faster up high due to lighter construction) It's an overall good plane and for the time it was released I can see why it gave the RAF pilots fits. It's a very good plane if you master it.
190A8
This is often called the Bomber buster or Field vulcher of the 190 series. Well forget that, yes it is very good at doing both those tasks but a trained 190 pilot who knows how to milk all of his strengths to his advantage will fair well against the Arena 3 (Spit, Niki, La7) and even all the other planes in the Arena.
Ok the best way to understand the 190a8 is to compare it to it's predecessor, the 190 A5. Compared to the 190a5 the 190a8 is faster on the deck, it turns worse (higher wing loading) but it makes up for this with stability (well to me it feels like more stable gun platform to me than the a5) it also has great firepower and better dive and roll than the a5. Use this as a BnZ and E fighter and you can't go wrong, it's excellent at defensives too.
190D9
This is the speed deamon of the 190 series. It is very very fast, comparable to a P-51 (Well slightly slower) it has good acceleration, dive, turning sucks though. It has a decent armorment at 2 13mm and 2 20mm.
It's a very good Plane for the main arena enviornment with it's speed allowing you to control the fight against most of the main arena aircraft (exceptions being La-7 and P-51 respectivly) which it can fighter pretty fairly on almost even terms. It rolls slightly worse than the other 190s (but still very good) and it is also has slightly poor visibility over the nose due to the elongated nose to house the new Inline engine. It's a very good LW Aircraft (the best IMO).
190F8
Theres not really much to be said about this plane.
It's Jabo 190
It's like a bloated 190A8 (with more weight than the 190a8) it turns worse, i believe it's slower and doesn't climb that well and has a reduced armorment (2 13mm and 2 20mm) It supposedly has more armor but with the planes in the MA (most with 2-4 20mms) it really doesn't do anything.
To be blunt, your better off using the 190a8 as jabo unless we get the armorments that it could carry (like the anti-tank rockets)
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Overall all of the 190s are fantastic aircraft that are a real joy to fly when you learn how to fly them well. My main tip is, don't get discouraged it really isn't an easy plane to fly but with time and practice you will be able to fly and fight with some of the really good pilots.
One last tip is to learn deflection shooting. There is really no lecture that can be given about gunnery, people try but often the best way to learn is sheer experience. Gunnery is more of an instictal art than something that can be learned. If you master shooting your 4 20mm will really leave a lasting impression on your target
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Great Soviet. Now it is turn of Willbuz and Mandoble too
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Read this from Help & Training forum:
A 'Primer' for new LW pilots (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=43808)
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Originally posted by Soviet
Being a Luftwaffe type and liking the 190 far more than the 109 I have to say the 190 is a great plane if you treat it right.
It's strenghts:
-VERY VERY GOOD diving performance, this plane doesn't compress easy
It has decent dive performance... but I think you stressed this a bit much. Don't go thinking you can out-dive a Jug, Hellcat, Lightening, or Corsair. They'll eat your lunch. The FW can get away from the Jug and Hog from low speed, but from mid to high speed the Ami planes will catch you.
I'd just say good dive performance. The FW's real strong point is it's accelleration from low speed. That means that it can recover well from things like scissors and other overshoot moves. Often hard pulls followed by short unloaded accellerations will gain the FW pilot an advantage over planes that don't accellerate so well, winnign you the E battle. While the FW's accelleration is excellent, it's dive is merely "OK" in my book. :)
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Outdiving a 38 is easy, that plane compresses at the drop of a hat. The F4u's I dont worry about either. The 51 and La-7 wil eat you up you might be able to outrun the 51 though once you get down to the deck. D-9 is my choice ride this tour, If you get over the weaknesses it has it is quite fun to fight in. Don't get in low speed gfights and keep your E up and you will have them scratching their heads. 190 F8 isn't to bad but has no elevator control what so ever. A8 and F8 speeds are quite near the same it also has a higher deck speed then the A5 and rolls quite nice.
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My turn for what RatPenat? :)
Diving performance of the 190's is is much what Lephturn said, good, not great, not on par with P51 and F4u. There are few planes that compress as late as the 190 though, P51 and F4u are both slightly better, specially when it comes to high speed rolls (high speed I mean HIGH speed, 550+ or so for A version).
Guns? Godo enough, 4x20's on the A8 makes the enemies die fast, although 4 gunned hispano birds have better armament.
The A8, if close enough, is the best buff killer after the 262, using 2x30mm and 2x20mm no buff will surive.
Learn how to scissors, and learn it WELL! Can save your arse and get you kills and it will alow you to hear alot of whines and be acused of cheating (and what can be better then that?) :D
A8 and F8 are the two worst turners in the entire game.
Some tips, use AFT tank first down to about 25% or less, will improve your turn rate some what, use 2 guns in the A5 (MG FF's aren't worth jack squat), use 4 guns (my prefered armament is 4x20) in the A8. Learn high speed delfection shooting, learn it well and train on hitting spits and nikis turning in 90+ degree hard banks, will surprise them.
RatPenat, was this what you were talking about? :)
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no more secrets??
how do you do scissors? I can't never follow you
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Originally posted by Sachs
Outdiving a 38 is easy, that plane compresses at the drop of a hat.
Yep, but it will accellerate extremely well in the early dive... so better hope you live long enough to compress the 38. It's not the high-speed dive machine the others are, but it's very dangerous from an accelleration point of view. Actually the 38 is the one plane that the FW driver should choose to dive away from provided you start with enough separation or from a high enough speed. On the flip side you don't want to play the accelleration card vs. the 38 because it accellerates very well also.
Originally posted by Sachs
The F4u's I dont worry about either. The 51 and La-7 wil eat you up you might be able to outrun the 51 though once you get down to the deck. D-9 is my choice ride this tour, If you get over the weaknesses it has it is quite fun to fight in. Don't get in low speed gfights and keep your E up and you will have them scratching their heads. 190 F8 isn't to bad but has no elevator control what so ever. A8 and F8 speeds are quite near the same it also has a higher deck speed then the A5 and rolls quite nice.
Well the D9 is obviously going to be the best diver of the lot. As a Jug driver though, there is nothing I like better than an FW trying to dive away from me. Same in the Hellcat. You might live in the D9, but the other FW's won't do as well. From mid to high speed, the big Ami planes will out-accellerate the FW's in a dive... even the D9. The F4U's are right up there with the best divers in the game... even in a Jug I won't dive from an F4U or a Hellcat.... they'll get ya. Sure, the 51 and La7 will run you down in a level chase... but we are talking about diving here, above max level speeds by a considerable amount. Even the extremely fast La7 can be left in the dust in a high speed dive by the big Ami iron. Yep, the La7 will win when the race flattens out... but in a dive nothing hits 550+ faster than the big Ami iron! :)
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From an ex-109 pilot: the 190 is superior plane for air combat.
It is pretty simple. 190 is made to fight at high speeds and is well equipped for those short snapshot opportunities. While 109 is a superior plane for 1 on 1 dueling type of fights, it is never as good in many vs many as the 190 is. To make a kill, 109 has to slow down. Everything takes longer, enemy has more time for evasive actions, and most important - slowing down in a crowded arena like AH is a big no-no. Flying the 109 in early AH beta was easier, slow down today and someone will nail you. When in 190, you have the luxury of making kills while staying fast, great snapshot lethality, much better visibility, greater range, durability and dive. Even when missing half wing you can make a kill if staying fast ;).
The 190 is not a dueler's plane. Of course you have some tricks to resort to when pressed into a duel, but you generally don't want to be drawn into such types of engagements. Instead, work for your advantage before the fight. First in term of alt advantage, then speed. Just be sure to have enough speed when entering a fight. Always watch the speed indicator - never let it go below 300 IAS. You will be much safer that way and yes - much more lethal. Your enemies will have less time to react.
When in fight, don't go for E conserving moves if they slow you down. Use nose down maneuvers instead, you wan't to stay fast and come up at your enemy guns blazing. Use the 4 20mm, flying around with only 2 20mm is a waste.
Practice gunnery and snapshots. As much as 90% of your kills will come from snapshots. While you pack a great punch, do not HO. 9 out of 10 planes in AH will take the HO. You will kill them, but they will probably damage you or even kill you.
At high speeds you can even turn inside several plane types. If you chase a Spit at 400 IAS and he goes into a turn, you can turn inside it and pull enough lead to kill it. Just be sure that other enemies are not around, better stay fast then. Fast roll rate helps you match enemy moves at high speeds - you can spot when they roll into a turn or Split S, roll to follow and pull quickly and ping them. This is one of the greatest things when flying the 190. 190A is much better at high speed instantenous (sp) maneuvering than the D-9, which is simply a different plane.
Speed is your defense. Never allow yourself to fight from disadvantage, why would you give your enemy an easy kill. When he gets the advantage, you better be on the way to pack of friendlies or even better - your ack. But in the desperate situations you will be forced to defend yourself. High speed again. Keep rolling, preferably out of sight of the enemy. You can change your lift vector orientation quite fast in that plane. Roll under enemy's nose, use any scissors you can think of, just stay fast. Against most fast planes you can create an overshoot easy. Practice flying while looking back. match enemy moves. Be ready for a brief snapshot and then go back to being fast again. Maybe a time to extend too.
Use split S while in 109 it is not a smart move generally, it has sense when flying 190. Quite a few get surprised by it, especially when you get out of it guns blazing.
If high enemies are around be sure to pull into them when they dive on you. try to create separation or take a HO if there is no other way. Be careful about turning your back to the enemy.
Even though defense in 190A can be fun against some planes (P51 mostly), it is fighting a losing fight. Remember that.
find a wingman, or better, a squad. No plane benefits out of group flying as the 190. While fairly hopeless in 1 on 1, it rules in many vs many type of fights.
And last thing:
Vulch, vulch, vulch !
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Too tired to develop a long reply.
Keep away from Dora, it is fast, but a brick at speed, also a brick when slow. A series are much better MA fighters.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
... but in a dive nothing hits 550+ faster than the big Ami iron! :)
Errr, I can think of one LW plane in AH that can do that. It has two engines, but no prop ;)
When this baby enters a dive, even the Jugs are left floating like baloons :D
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Scissors (http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/ACM-scissors.html)
Good link to get started with the scissors, made for WB but should work well for AH.
Most important thing is to be agressive and make fairly big turns, don't be a sissy and turn 10 degrees each way after the reversals, will do nothing then blow some E and give the enemy an even easier target.
Be agressive, very agressive, don't stall it, fly it on the edge of what is possible and be gentle, change altitude in each turn, nose up/nose down to throw off his snapshots, don't let him regain his advantage.
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that's good stuff Hristo, Leph and Soviet. thanks again!
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Don't listen to them guys Mason, stay away from the 190.
If ya ever get any perk points try the Ta152 now that's a Man's Plane. Twin 20's and 30's, lotsa speed, stable gun platform, sleek, comes standard with an 8 track tape player and automatic drip coffee maker. (allows me to brew a cup while disco'n out to my favorite BeeGees "Stayin' Alive" tape) :D
Just hang out at 30k, sit back and wait fer the buffs to climb to you!
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when i meant diving performance I actually stated it wrong. What I meant was it's high speed performance combined with energy retention plus decent dive make it a great platform to provide boom and zoom attacks at very high speed.
I'm not really the dogfighting type. I'm the type that likes to sneak in and kill some guy by surprise. I will E fight if it comes to dogfighting though.
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Originally posted by milnko
Just hang out at 30k, sit back and wait fer the buffs to climb to you!
Spent some time doing this 2 days ago... After I sent 7th buff down in flames although I still had plenty of fuel and quite enuff ammo it started to be a bit boring tho so I landed and rolled 202 for a change :D
Speaking of fuel how much do you guys take in Ta-152? I take DT + 75 internal and still the plane seems to fly for ages with this config... ? :)
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Same fuel loadout for me Madbird.
Did a test a while back, the TA152 on internal fuel has got about 20% longer flight time then P51D on internal fuel.
Not sure what the flight time with DT's will be but I suspect the P51 with two tanks will stay up a while longer.
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Good Advice all around!
I prefer the Dora to the earlier varients myself, but thats because I prefer to fight the unfair fight, and rarely fight a "fair" 1 v 1. And if I loose advantage, I prefer to run away to fight another day. But I do usually stick around long enough to make it interesting.
Leph, while I agree that in a straight dive, the American iron will ultimately get the fastest the soonest, only the P51 comes close to worrying me while in a Dora. Sure the P47 will dive faster, but combine the Dora's dive speed with its incredible high speed roll rates and I will bleed off the Jug's advantage, then use my superior acceleration to get enough seperation to survive the fight. Once we're on the deck the Jug's slow top speed will allow me to get away. The only time this is truely dangerous is if the Jug pilot is an excellent shot. Like you or Drex.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
rarely fight a "fair" 1 v 1
Hmm someone once said: 'If you find yourself in a fair fight then you definitely did something wrong...' :p
:D
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Or as Bob Shaw once said to me.....
"WHY the HELL would you want to fight a 'fair' fight !?!?!?!!?"
hehehe :)
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contrary to popular belief the Fw-190A8 is a good fighter on the deck. It is pretty fast
Here are some comparisons of deck speed
(btw these are with wep)
Plane Speed
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190A8 - 350
Spit IX - 320
Spit V - 305
Spit XIV - 365
F4u1D - 355
F6F- 330
P47D30 - 340
P51D - 365
P38L - 340
Nik2-J 325
La7- 380
Typhoon - 370
As you can see the 190A8 is one of the fastest planes in the Arena on the deck. Plus it has 4 20mm or if you wanna be a rebel 2 20mm and 2 30mm. 1 short burst and most fighters are history.
It also performs very well in roll, and at high speed.
It can turn with almost anything for the first 1/4 of it's turn due to it's fantastic instantaneous turn rate.
I just racked up a lot of kills in it flying it on the deck against planes taking off a CV in a massive furball.
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Soviet,
Top speed is secondary when you loose a lot of energy whatever you do except flying straight ahead or diving.
Put a 190A8 and a Spit in a race of 4 Km. At Km 2 both need to make a 4g 90 dgree turn to the right and repeat to the left. SpitIX will win the race.
Keep in mind also the speed and climbing rate of any 190 without WEP compared to anyother plane without WEP.
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The snap roll can spoil a Bish Spit's gun solution quick. If a spit dives on me while I'm... ummm.. "extending" in an A8, I like to let him close to 1000-800, then give the stick a violent jerk to the lower/right position (to pull you up and to the right). You'll enter an accelerated stall right away, and the engine torque will flip you over and to the left. So from the spits POV, you start a roll to the left, then freak out and flip to the left.
Uh oh.. that's the infamous FW flip-flop manouver - gaming, not acm.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Uh oh.. that's the infamous FW flip-flop manouver - gaming, not acm.
I am so sure that every Spit driver would refrain from flat turning if it caused warps. Yeah ;)
As DocDoom said in his book: "...use what the game offers you...".
Learn to warproll the best you can. I don't know if I can do it, nobody whined about it yet. Sigh :(.
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I dunno.. For some strange reason I don't start unplugging my modem, stick jerking, alt-tabbing, flip-flopping etc. 'acm' if I can't outfly my enemy the way the plane was capable of. I take the bullet and take off again.
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Do you whine when they get you ? ;)
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Originally posted by Hristo
Do you whine when they get you ? ;)
Hehe I do... :D A lot... But on squad channel only and most of the time in Czech language so only Orel can really enjoy it... :)
Edit:
But lately since I realized that no matter how much i whine it wont make Orel to help me when I need it so I just curse a lot... ;)
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I used to do the usual : "...now could he do that if he was in and I was in ?...".
Probably not, and that's what this is all about. Exploit plane differences, along with possible pilot differences. If the Internet burps while you are doing it, too bad. It can be double edged sword as well. Think how many times you have been shot in a warp.
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Hristo the thing that is 100% guaranteed to make me whine is when I get bounced by a supersonic n1k while I'm extending from a fight.
On some days 50% of my fights end that way. Fight 2-3 enemies, damage some or kill some, extend - and the n1k dives from somewhere and game over. Can't outrun him, can't outturn him.
Tried to follow a diving n1k last week to a vertical turn in P51.. N1k flew away and I lawndarted with no wings :)
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...which gives me an idea for another thread
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I despice people who stick stirr and game the game, specially when they do it in 190's since it gives the 190 people who can actually fly the plane a bad reputation aswell. Stop it or change plane you dweebs :mad:
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Stick stirring is not cool, I usually bump into a 190 or an f4u trying to stickstir their way out of trouble every so often. I shotdown a spit that was stick stirring last night (so it's not always 190's & f4u's) wasted about a 1/4 of my ammo trying to hit the the bugger.
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I'd like to point out that I don't believe what I described is a "Warp Roll" or "Stick Stirring" Nor do I believe that it is gaming so much. You are simply using the 190s mean departure to snap you over.
You do not "appear" to be going one way, then go the next, you actually "are" going one way, then going the next. The A8 will flop right on over even if I don't want it too. If you stall in pretty much any right hand turn in the 190A8, you will likely flop over to the left. At least that's my experience. Using this as an evasive is simply forcing the stall with a quick change in attitude.
-Sikboy
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Ripley, I don't think the maneuver described by Sikboy is a 'warp-roll' which is abusing technical network problems. The maneuver he described, like he said, is a 'snap roll' which when a plane enters accelerated stall it violently spins into a certain direction with lightning speed. This is due to the accelerated stall totally ridding the lift out of one wing(in Sikboy's description, the left wing) so the lift of the opposite wing(right wing) flips the plane over to one side(left roll) faster than normal stick-input rolls.
I think Sikboy mistyped a word in the part "from the spits POV, you start a roll to the left, then freak out and flip to the left".. You start a roll to the right, not the left. The guy chasing the 190 would see it begin to roll right and nose up, and then suddenly just flip over to the opposite direction with incredible speed, and extend away to some obscure direction.
I do admit the way Sikboy described this was just asking to be misunderstood as 'stick-stirring'.
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woops, guess my typing was a bit late :D
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I think Sikboy mistyped a word in the part "from the spits POV, you start a roll to the left, then freak out and flip to the left".. You start a roll to the right, not the left.
Oooops, nice catch!
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Sikboy
If you stall in pretty much any right hand turn in the 190A8, you will likely flop over to the left. At least that's my experience. Using this as an evasive is simply forcing the stall with a quick change in attitude.
Try that stuff in a mustang or hog and you have good chance of taking a dirt nap.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Try that stuff in a mustang or hog and you have good chance of taking a dirt nap.
That's why I didn't post it under "HaWGs aNd PonIEs foR DuMMieS" smartass :eek:
-Sikboy
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My interpretation of stick stirring is when a planes nose is picthing in various directions, with 90/180 degree rolls meanwhile the plane continues to travel in a straight line. This makes it very hard to judge where the plane is going to provide lead for yer lead.:mad:
Didn't really see sikboy's post as warp flipflopping stuff myself. But i hate it when i see it so i just had to post about how much i hate it. :D
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Originally posted by Sikboy
That's why I didn't post it under "HaWGs aNd PonIEs foR DuMMieS" smartass :eek:
-Sikboy
OK Mr. Sensitive, please forgive me for stating that the 190 has very easy spin and stall recovery which is an advantage over some of the other energy fighters.
Seems the Aces High 190s have the same violent departure and easy stall recovery that the 190s AW had, thank goodness they can only do the fish flop here and not the AW spindweeb move also.
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Easy stall and spin recovery yes, esay to turn, no, very violent and fast snap stall.
Anything that says they shouldn't be easy to recover?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Easy stall and spin recovery yes, esay to turn, no, very violent and fast snap stall.
Never said it turned well near stall speed.
Anything that says they shouldn't be easy to recover?
No, just an observation.
Unlike a certain LUFTWHINER in the N1K2 thread, I would post actual evidence before complaining that a flight model might be wrong.