Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wsnpr on May 22, 2002, 02:38:26 PM
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Please read everything before responding, thanks. :)
Some questions:
For you 'anti-Palestinian/pro-Israeli' people, please tell me:
1) What positive things the United States and/or Israel has ever done for the Palestinian people since 1948?
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Let's look at some of the major Palestinian terrorist incidents and perhaps see if there is a reason for such incidents:
2) What events by the Israelis might have led to the first commercial hijackings of 68-69 (forgot the exact date-sorry)?
3) What events previous by the Israelis might have led to the Munich Olympics terrorism of '72?
4) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?
5) Why would many (not all) Palestinians dance in the streets upon seeing the WTC attacks?
Perhaps you might see some 'cause and effect' reasons/events, perhaps not.
Please post something a little deeper than:
1) They just want to kill people for no reason.
2) They are just jealous of other's freedoms and religions.
3) They are bored.
4) No insults, labeling, or name calling please (it's just not an intelligent, mature thing to do).
Perhaps if we all look deep into the problems, to find the root cause of it all, we can then find viable solutions.
BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.
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"BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian."
Well from where i come from the above would mean "Neutral"
So why post this post if you seem to be neither for or against either side ?
Dosen't make sense to my braincell
Have Fun
Def
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I find it disturbing that so many debate this issue, but tend to leave out this part:
What major event in Europe led to the creation of the Israeli state?
Put in context first. Then ask the same questions.
As for the Israelis being somehow responsible for the 1972 Munich and the hijackings earlier? Well, please, I guess then Bin Laden was justified in the WTC attacks then?
Sorry, I cant stomach the "blame the victim" philosophy. "You brought it on yourselves", thats what it sounds like you are saying. Just remember that next time more civilians die.
As for the Palestinian people. They deserve much better than they have got in this world, true enough. I feel they have been poorly led by Arafat, and the Arab world has used them more for politics in their struggle to gain dominance over Israel than any genuin concern over their well being. Had those states worked towards a peacefull solution to begin with, there would probably be a seperate palestinian state/homeland by now (which they deserve).
The rest of it is a"tit for tat" debate, and I see no usefull purpose in taking on the rest of those points above. No matter what you conclude re Munich ect. it doesnt excuse terror, no matter if you find injustices perpetuated by Israel (which you will find, cuz they aint perfect either).
...Btw, who did kill those 500,000 Rwandans? oh wait, wrong part of the world, nevermind.
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wsnpr
They are at war pure and simple. It's everyones fault Jew and Arab.
Your questions are pointless, as any pro-Isreal type can just ask the exact questions in reverse.
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I personally do not support either peoples involved. Unfortunately I cant say the same for my country.
In the final analysis I personally believe the arab nations will be the trigger that destroys modern contemporary civilization. But thats just my opinion.
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All ism fanatic religious dweebs should be removed from this planet for a start no matter where they live.
Humanity, respect and peace that's what's our religion should be.
Where all on the same planet and no god is gonna save u when we blow it up.
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1) What positive things the United States and/or Israel has ever done for the Palestinian people since 1948?
What positive have the arabs done...period?
I`m trying hard,but can`t think of anything.
2) What events by the Israelis might have led to the first commercial hijackings of 68-69 (forgot the exact date-sorry)?
3) What events previous by the Israelis might have led to the Munich Olympics terrorism of '72?
4) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?
Jews exist.The arabs don`t like that fact,and try to do everything they can to change that.
5) Why would many (not all) Palestinians dance in the streets upon seeing the WTC attacks?
Because they hate the US,and all western people.They love to see us die and suffer.To them America is an evil empire.That`s what they`ve been tougt.
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) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?
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Jews exist.The arabs don`t like that fact,and try to do everything they can to change that.
I found an interesting article on the Israeli government website (the English version is run by the Israeli foreign ministry)
Experience gathered in recent years enables Israel's Security Services to draw very roughly a profile of a suicide-terrorist. According to research of security officials, he is generally single, age between 18 and 27. He comes from a family of limited means, and is himself either unemployed or has a meagre income. According to the research, the desire for a good life in the world to come is a most critical component in the motivation of these terrorists.
Most of the suicides have little education. Practically all of them are pupils from religious educational institutions in the Gaza Strip or the territories, administered and funded by HAMAS (hence the demand of the General Security Services to close these institutions. Or at least cut off their sources of funding.)
According to accumulated testimony, most of the suicides were beset by hard mental distress, the source of which was friction with the Israeli occupation. Either because they themselves were physically hurt or humiliated by soldiers or Israeli civilians, or someone from their family underwent a bad incident like that.
The case of the terrorist Iman Radi is typical. He blew himself up at the transport station for soldiers next to Binyanei Haooma in Jerusalem, last month. During the Intifada soldiers broke into his family home, in the refugee camp near Khan Yunis, a number of times. In one case a soldier hit his mother with the rifle butt badly in the face. Iman carried his mother in his arms to the hospital. His sister, the family claim, miscarried her fetus after one of these night visits. Iman himself was taken out of the house many times and forced under threats and blows to erase graffiti that was painted by his friends on the walls of the houses in the camp.
It is therefore a matter of people who grew up in the period of the Intifada, and the experiences they underwent in the years their personalities were formed created in them elements of impotent anger and frustration, that seek some channel of release for them. Religion serves as an escape for them. All of the suicides stand out in their adherence to religion and in a fanatic fulfillment in daily life of its principles and commands. Religious fanaticism was generally also accompanied by national extremism, and that is basically what motivates their readiness to commit suicide.
Nonetheless, the experts claim, fanaticism by itself is not sufficient. It is always accompanied by secondary motivations, that give the suicide terrorist an extra final push, that enables him to execute his mission. One important secondary motivation is the desire to imitate other suicides who succeeded in their missions and earned great prestige in the Palestinian community.
Another secondary motivation is the desire to avenge. The massacre in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, for example, is one of the important elements of motivation of the sucide terrorists. This motivation has not lost its significance although a year has passed since Baruch Goldstein fired on Muslims bowed in prayer. Also the elimination of the senior Jihad figure Hani Abed, and the killings of three Palestinian policemen by IDF soldiers near the Erez checkpoint, created a motivation that gave the final push to some of the executors of recent suicide attacks.
Not from some Palestinian site, or a human rights group, or a foreign government. From the Israeli government itself at
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ccm0
End the occupation, and the suicide attacks will stop too.
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Some say if it wasn't for our support of Israel, the attacks on the WTC, the USS Cole and all the others would not have happened.
I say "BS"
I think if it wasn't for Israel taking the brunt of the Arab worlds hatred of modern Western civilization, the US would be.
Even with Israel, it's just a matter of time before our warm & fuzzy liberal views turn our country into an Israeli look alike. Even then we'll have lib lawyers screaming for the rights of the terrorist orgs in the states :rolleyes:
Just maybe part of the hate the Arab world vents on Israel has nothing to do with Palestine. Maybe just maybe it is because Israel is pro US...
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Originally posted by wsnpr
1) What positive things the United States and/or Israel has ever done for the Palestinian people since 1948?
Uh? Considering the Palestinian track record against Israel the real question should be "Why should the US or Israel do anything positive for the Palestinians".
Let's look at some of the major Palestinian terrorist incidents and perhaps see if there is a reason for such incidents:
2) What events by the Israelis might have led to the first commercial hijackings of 68-69 (forgot the exact date-sorry)?
As far as I know, the first commercial hijackings was in 1970. Within the space of two hours on September 6, PFLP gangs hijacked a TWA jet, a Swissair jet, and made an unsuccessful attempt to seize control of an El Al airplane. About two hours later, another PFLP group hijacked a Pan Am jet and forced the crew to fly to Beirut airport, where the airplane landed almost out of fuel. The next day the airliner was flown to the Cairo airport, where it was blown up only seconds after the 176 passengers and crew had completed their three-minute forced evacuation.
Problem (for you) is that these hijackings were aimed at Jordan, not Israel. King Hussein viewed the hijackings as a direct threat to his authority in Jordan.
[Long and complicated story. The short version is this: The six days war radicalized the Palestinians, who had looked to the Arab countries to defeat first the Jewish community of Palestine before 1948, and after 1948 the State of Israel, so that they could regain their homeland. The PLO had no role in the six days War though. After the succession of Arab failures in conventional warfare against Israel, the Palestinians decided to adopt "guerrilla warfare" tactics as the most effective method of attacking Israel. In February 1969, Arafat became head of the PLO. He began reorganizing the PLO and began focusing on eh..unconventional warfare. By early 1970, at least seven hrm…unconventional organizations were identified in Jordan. One of the most important organizations was the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).
At first by conviction and then by political necessity, Hussein sought accommodation with the Palestinians and provided training sites and assistance. In Jordan's internal politics, however, the main issue between 1967 and 1971 was the struggle between the government and the guerrilla organizations for political control of the country. Based in the refugee camps, the Palestinians virtually developed a state within a state, easily obtaining funds and arms from both the Arab states and Eastern Europe and openly ignoring Jordanian law.
Tension grew between the government and the Palestinians, and soon small clashes between Pals and Jordan army units occurred. Over time, more and more attacks were mounted by both sides and the country was slowly thrown into a civil war. At the same time Israel was negotiating peace with Jordan and Egypt (these negotiations would eventually lead to Egypt getting back the Sinai) The hijackings on September 6th was aimed at disrupting those peace talks. Hussein wanted peace with Israel, now the Palestinians inside his own country were openly defying him, and challenging his control over the nation.]
In response, on September 16 King Hussein reaffirmed martial law and gave his army orders to quell the Palestinians inside his country. Civil war broke out. Syria sent 200 tanks to help the Palestinians. Israel mobilized and prepared to enter the fray (to save the current government in Jordan) and the US sixth fleet moved into position. In light of this, the arab neighbors forced the parties to a peace.
3) What events previous by the Israelis might have led to the Munich Olympics terrorism of '72?
Actually if you knew a bit more about history, you would know what I'm about to tell you now. The Palestinian terrorist group that was responsible for the Munich attack was called "Black September". Black September refers to the civil war in Jordan in September 1970.
4) What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings of the '90's-on?
Beats me, you'll have to be more specific. Most of the 90ies saw liberal Israeli governments falling over themselves to appease the Palestinians. Do you mean early 90s or late 90s?
5) Why would many (not all) Palestinians dance in the streets upon seeing the WTC attacks?
Because they see the US as their enemy. This because the US is Israel's most faithful ally. And (being Palestinian/Arab) they see suicide attacks aimed at innocent civilians, women and children, as the best way to attack your enemy.
Please post something a little deeper than:
1) They just want to kill people for no reason.
2) They are just jealous of other's freedoms and religions.
3) They are bored.
4) No insults, labeling, or name calling please (it's just not an intelligent, mature thing to do).
Perhaps if we all look deep into the problems, to find the root cause of it all, we can then find viable solutions.
Yeah, and then we can mail those solutions to the Israelis and the Palestines. Perhaps this will convince them that they should not be fighting but instead try to live in peace?
BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.
roadkill. You are pro Palestinian. At least have the guts to stand for it.
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My 2 pennies. I understand where the sentiment of the palestians and have for a long time. think about it, in 1948 you have to leave your home and carry what you can to either Gaza, Golan heights or the west Bank. Didn't Hitler do the same to Poland, oh but that was different wasn't it?
I was born and raised in America and am not Paletinian, Jewish. But I am sick and tired of other catastrophies happening elsewhere, but becuase the Isreali's WANTED (in 1948) more than they could handle, I'm supposed to favor them?
My sister was fired from the Ann arbor News 14 years ago because of East Timor, because she "was supposed to ignore that wire coming in off the AP.". We really learned about that one after it had been going on for 10 years. Pathetic, that this is how our media is run and believed. Why do most people even believe half of the toejam they read in newspaper?! I mean people believe what Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and they both diddlyed up the election if you stop and think about it! Both of them, would screw up a one-car funeral?!
If you also believe that ALL of the palestians were cheering, you are mistaken. My barber and his dad are 100% Lebanese and laughed at the American reactions to the "loaded clips" shown over the air, to increase a "military presence". I intially thought the same, but after hearing him speak and watching the footage, I realized what he said "They are all children, and they would do that."
You guys came flame me all you want, but when it really comes down to it. I'm an American and give a rat's bellybutton about Israel or any country for that matter, except MY COUNTRY, the united States of America.
Basically, Israeli's won't get much sympathy here. We founded our country on almost similar terms to what happened to the Palestinians.
Masher
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Read a book or something, you might learn something (hopefully).
You can believe anything you want, its both sad and pathetic to see someone base his opinions on flawed facts though.
[edit] simple fact of the matter is that your post is so full of factual errors that I cannot be bothered to point them all out.
Sorry.
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I don't know why i posted, the genius is always right! I read enough thank you for caring.
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One other thing. Are "factual errors" the same as "Near misses", Minor catastrophies", "clean showers" and other oxymorons? yes, they are. thanks.
Masher
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As far as I know, the first commercial hijackings was in 1970.
1968. PFLP, El Al plane en-route to Rome.
Another one in 69, and another two in 1970 before the hijacks you are talking about.
Masherbrum, ignore Hortlund. His usual tactic is to tell people to read a book or something.
Check out the other terrorism thread. He doesn't actually seem to read up on any facts himself, obviously.
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Thanks Nate.
Masher
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Masherbrum, ignore Hortlund. His usual tactic is to tell people to read a book or something.
Check out the other terrorism thread. He doesn't actually seem to read up on any facts himself, obviously.
I just wish people would listen...would save me alot of time having to educate people like you on international law and history.
I just have to smile at your other sentence there. Quite a gem actually. I'm in the middle of responding to your most recent attempt at legal analysis, you'll have it in a minute or two.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I read enough thank you for caring.
Well obviously not enough history books...
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International Law?!
Sweden's Law - When the World need's us, we'll stay neutral! Insult your yourself. I'm done with this thread, I've read more than you think Hortlund. Enjoy your "arrogance", you must believe EVERYTHING you read, that's pathetic.
Masher
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I just wish people would listen...would save me alot of time having to educate people like you on international law and history.
Don't be so pompous.
Someone who had never heard of the Fourth Geneva Convention, still refuses to recognize it by that name, despite it being called that by governments and the UN, and who bases his arguments on the title of the treaty, without actually reading it, isn't in a position to educate anyone on international law.
Someone who's logic runs to:
The West Bank wasn't part of Jordan because territory taken in war isn't recognized, but it is part of Israel because they won it in war
shouldn't really be arguing with anyone, let alone lecturing others.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
International Law?!
Sweden's Law - When the World need's us, we'll stay neutral! Insult your yourself. I'm done with this thread, I've read more than you think Hortlund. Enjoy your "arrogance", you must believe EVERYTHING you read, that's pathetic.
Masher
No, please dont leave this thread. Who will educate us on how the Palestinian refugees were driven from the Golan heights in 1948 now?
Ah, well, maybe Nashwan...
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Someone who had never heard of the Fourth Geneva Convention, still refuses to recognize it by that name, despite it being called that by governments and the UN, and who bases his arguments on the title of the treaty, without actually reading it, isn't in a position to educate anyone on international law.
Dude, you need to get a grip. Exactly what is the correct name of that convention? Does it matter what others choose to call it? Does it matter what lawyers choose to call it? It is important that you express yourself clearly enough so that other people understand what you're talking about. As for the rest of your ramblings, go check out the other thread.
Someone who's logic runs to:
The West Bank wasn't part of Jordan because territory taken in war isn't recognized, but it is part of Israel because they won it in war shouldn't really be arguing with anyone, let alone lecturing others.
Once again then. The legal aspect of the west bank (copied from the other thread):
When Britain abandoned the territory, the territory became terra nullius. Jordan moved in on the west bank and occupied it. At this moment in time, Jordan owns the west bank. After another war, Israel occupies the west bank. In the peace settlement between Israel and Jordan, Jordan abandons the west bank. Suddenly Israel owns the west bank.
Please read through this explanation a couple of times until you understand it
I dont even know why you bring it up. We have been over this, and you have pretty much accepted it as a fact. Give it up, try to understand that you are in over your head when you try to argue around the legal aspects here.
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That would mean that Israel "occupies" land that doesn't belong to anyone. And in such a case, the territory occupied is considered a part of the occupying country. Clearly you would not want that, so you must find some other way. How about Jordan then? After the 48-war, Jordan occupied the west bank and claimed ownership over the territory. Problem with that line of argument is that nowadays states never recognize aggressive warfare as a legal way to increase your country's territory. And besides, Jordan has stated that the river Jordan is her western border. That would mean that the west bank is abandoned territory, and thus it belongs to the country claiming it by occupation. And again, Israel owns the west bank.
That was your line of reasoning before.
No one owned it.
Jordan occupied it.
Jordan didn't own it because it was taken in war.
Israel occupied it.
Israel owns it because Israel took it in war.
The sad thing is you can't even see the contradictions in your position.
As regards being out of my depth, you believed the West Bank was part of Israel until I pointed out to you that no-one, not even Israel, claims it's part of Israel.
And you have the nerve to tell others to go and read a book.
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wtf are you rambling about??
[edit for clarity]
Why would you refer to something I said in a post and then clarified in the post after that? Dont you think that is a bit childish? I mean what are you trying to prove?
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Nash, this is the standard response when back-peddling.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Nash, this is the standard response when back-peddling.
Whatever..I guess you'd know all about it.
You should return to the plight of the Palestinian Golan heights-refugees.
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Is WHATEVER the word of the 90's!!!!!!? Original I like that. When that word comes out of people's mouths the ears block out the noise that follows.
Masher
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Lets see Masherbrum says:
"My 2 pennies. I understand where the sentiment of the palestians and have for a long time. think about it, in 1948 you have to leave your home and carry what you can to either Gaza, Golan heights or the west Bank. Didn't Hitler do the same to Poland, oh but that was different wasn't it?"
There was that whole Holocaust thing actually, maybe read something on WW2. Was it different you asked? yes. It was. Btw what country do you think the Polish jews fled to after the war? Go ahead, guess.
"Basically, Israeli's won't get much sympathy here. We founded our country on almost similar terms to what happened to the Palestinians."
Have no idea what thats about, maybe clarify.
As for 1948. The Arab states chose war. They chose war again in 1967, and again in 1973. Always backed, I might add by this country:
The Soviet Union.
You remember them? That really friendly state that had the USAs best interests at heart? Ya, the armament factory for all of them.
Its nice to see such a grasp of history, "Those darn Israelis", ya, what country was instrumental in recognizing them in 1948?
Right, YOURs, the USA, President Truman.
Regards.
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"Basically, Israeli's won't get much sympathy here. We founded our country on almost similar terms to what happened to the Palestinians."
Have no idea what thats about, maybe clarify.
I'm guessing
Native Americans = Palestines
European settlers=Israelis
Uh, no wait, that doesnt make sense...Shouldnt he be cheering for the Israelis then?
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I'm anti-Israel and anti-Palestinian. Arm both sides equally and let them waste each other. Good riddance.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm guessing
Native Americans = Palestines
European settlers=Israelis
Uh, no wait, that doesnt make sense...Shouldnt he be cheering for the Israelis then?
Hortlund, one of the biggest myths of all time is that North America had indiginous peoples here prior to 1492. In fact North America had no native population at all until around 1860 when we were invaded by tribes of Indians from Mexico and Central America.
These invaders slaughtered many white pioneer families throughout the Old West, but eventually we drove them back across the border with the exception of those we gave generous amounts of our land to in the form of reservations. See, we are kind conquorers. Either that or we were smart enough to wipe out the previous tenants.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50707
roadkill. You are pro Palestinian. At least have the guts to stand for it.
Hortland, you are half right. I am also Pro-Israeli. Read the other thread above as I don't want to repeat myself. Tell me where in all of my postings in any thread that I have stated that Israel doesn't deserve its own State?
Uh? Considering the Palestinian track record against Israel the real question should be "Why should the US or Israel do anything positive for the Palestinians".
So you admit that nothing positive has been done for the Palestinians?
To answer your question you'll need to see a pattern of retaliation going on from my questions 2-4. Israeli casualties are going up. I fear if the next round might be biological in nature and casualties will skyrocket. Remember this: It is not important what you think of your enemy but what your enemy thinks of you for they are the ones that will carry out the attacks on you. The higher the level of hatred, the greater the severity of the attack.
Again, cause and effect.
As far as I know, the first commercial hijackings was in 1970.
Really? I thought they started in '68-69.
You can believe anything you want, its both sad and pathetic to see someone base his opinions on flawed facts though.
Agreed. Perhaps now you'll give us your expertise on the hijackings of '68 and 69. Thank you in advance
Actually if you knew a bit more about history, you would know what I'm about to tell you now. The Palestinian terrorist group that was responsible for the Munich attack was called "Black September". Black September refers to the civil war in Jordan in September 1970.
Perhaps if you knew more about cause and effect we'd be more in agreement. So, you're basically saying the casualties and displacement suffered by the Palestinians didn't create more and stronger hatred? Oh, I get it. The Palestinian terrorists killed the Israeli olympic team because they were pissed at the Jordanians. Well, we know the Jordanians learned from THAT lesson.
BTW, please don't be so arrogant to think that only you have all the answers(you don't, not in this area).
Beats me, you'll have to be more specific. Most of the 90ies saw liberal Israeli governments falling over themselves to appease the Palestinians. Do you mean early 90s or late 90s?
I thought I was. I'll clarify it for you. From the first suicide bombing by a Palestinian supporter in the early '90s to the present.
Yeah, and then we can mail those solutions to the Israelis and the Palestines. Perhaps this will convince them that they should not be fighting but instead try to live in peace?
LOL, now you've got me curious. So, why do you post on this issue?
BTW, how come someone of your supposed intellegence and maturity keep including insults with your posts? Are your facts not valid enough to stand on their own merits?
Again please read my other posts and perhaps you'll figure out that one can understand certain actions while not supporting them and one can question and disagree a country's actions while still supporting them. I am really glad that the founding fathers of my country had the courage to question events going on in their time, otherwise we'd probably still be British subjects.
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Squire,
What major event in Europe led to the creation of the Israeli state?
...and what role did the Palestinians have in the event(s) in Europe?
As for the Israelis being somehow responsible for the 1972 Munich and the hijackings earlier? Well, please, I guess then Bin Laden was justified in the WTC attacks then?
Sorry, I cant stomach the "blame the victim" philosophy. "You brought it on yourselves", thats what it sounds like you are saying. Just remember that next time more civilians die.
The killing of innocent civillians is never 'justified' in my eyes. I can see where the hatred is so great, the need for revenge can be overpowering. I can understand the hate behind the terrorism, I just don't feel it justifiable.
"Blame the victim" philosophy? That is usually what I am seeing by the anti-Palestinian crowd when any Palestinian casualties are killed. Cause and effect is why even more civillians will die, unfortunetely.
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Hortland, you are half right. I am also Pro-Israeli. Read the other thread above as I don't want to repeat myself. Tell me where in all of my postings in any thread that I have stated that Israel doesn't deserve its own State?
Well, At least in my opinion the phrasing "pro-Israeli" is not the same thing as feeling that Israel has the right to exist. Pro-Israeli would go a bit deeper than that actually. For example, someone might say that I'm pro-Israeli. Someone might also say that Nashwan is pro-Palestinian. He and I have very different opinions about various aspects of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the idea that someone can be pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian at the same time is plain silly. The two sides are too far apart to combine into one.
You also posted this in another thread:
The State sponsored terrorism by Israel under the guise or 'self defence' is no excuse. Sharon and the Israeli leadership are not interested in peace short of a Greater Israel and buffer zone. Period. All Sharon is insuring is the future continued attacks against Israelis by desperate Palestinian people (mainly those who have lost innocent family and friends from Israeli Military attacks, so called collateral casualties) who no longer have hope of self determination.
To me, it would be wrong to characterize someone who wrote that as "pro-Israeli" but perhaps you are of a different opinion?
So you admit that nothing positive has been done for the Palestinians?
I'm not admitting anything, I was asking
Seriously though, what do you feel that Israel or the US "owes" to the Palestinians? The Pal track record against Israel isnt exactly spotless now is it?
To answer your question you'll need to see a pattern of retaliation going on from my questions 2-4.
Well, if we begin in 1967, you get Israel winning a war against her neighbors. After that the Palestinians start using guerilla tactics, then they escalate them into terrorist tactics. I suppose Israel should have lost the six days war instead to keep the Palestinians happy? Between 1967 and up to 1971 Israel was fighting a war of attrition against Egypt and Jordan. But this was a low scale, low intensity war, so I dont thing most people have even heard about it. Is this what you are aiming for?
Israeli casualties are going up. I fear if the next round might be biological in nature and casualties will skyrocket. Remember this: It is not important what you think of your enemy but what your enemy thinks of you for they are the ones that will carry out the attacks on you. The higher the level of hatred, the greater the severity of the attack.
Again, cause and effect.
Israeli casualties are mounting. That is why I suspect we will soon start to see asymmetrical responses from the IDF. Since Israel cannot win a war of attrition, they will probably start retaliating much more harshly than the attacks might seem to motivate.
As for the bio weapons thing. Actually I think Israel is the safest place in the world when it comes to the risk of bio weapons. Two reasons for this. First there are alot of arabs living in and close to Israel. Second most nations with bio weapons know that if Israel is hit by bio weapons, they will respond with nuclear weapons. The Israelis are the only ones with balls enough to nuke Baghdad or Damascus. Everyone knows this, thats why they wont attack with those weapons. The US are in severe danger of bio weapons though.
Really? I thought they started in '68-69.
I dunno, as I said, I thought they started in 70. If you know of any previous hijack, you are more than welcome to educate me.
But at least you could give me that the hijackings in 1970 were aimed at Jordan? Didnt I at least show that?
Agreed. Perhaps now you'll give us your expertise on the hijackings of '68 and 69. Thank you in advance
See above
Perhaps if you knew more about cause and effect we'd be more in agreement. So, you're basically saying the casualties and displacement suffered by the Palestinians didn't create more and stronger hatred? Oh, I get it. The Palestinian terrorists killed the Israeli olympic team because they were pissed at the Jordanians. Well, we know the Jordanians learned from THAT lesson.
Uh, no thats not what I was saying at all. You asked what events might have lead up to the Munich attack. I said that what took place in Jordan in 1970 might have more to do with those attacks than you'd think. You have to remember that Syria and Jordan went to war with eachother over the PLO. And that the war ended with Jordan throwing the PLO out of the country.
I thought I was. I'll clarify it for you. From the first suicide bombing by a Palestinian supporter in the early '90s to the present.
So the complete question would be: What events previous and during by the Israelis might have led to the suicide bombings, from the first suicide bombing by a Palestinian supporter in the early '90s to the present?
Well, ok, lets see, the first suicide bombing in the 90s that I am aware of was in 1993. Between 1993 and 2002 the Israel policy towards the Palestinians has changed and changed again, so much in fact that it would be pointless to try to draw any conclusions from it. That is why I wanted you to be more specific.
BTW, how come someone of your supposed intellegence and maturity keep including insults with your posts? Are your facts not valid enough to stand on their own merits?
I have little patience with terrorist supporters. Whether you people realize this or not, that is exactly what you are. There are two sides in this conflict, democracies and terrorists. You cant have both, and if you say neither, you are giving the terrorists at least quiet support.
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"All ism fanatic religious dweebs should be removed from this planet for a start no matter where they live.
Humanity, respect and peace that's what's our religion should be. "
Just out of curiosity bug..... "removed" to where?
lazs
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I'm anti-Israel and anti-Palestinian. Arm both sides equally and let them waste each other. Good riddance.
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Im in agreement with this. Its a very American way of letting things sort themselves out. Unfortunately the consequences of either palis or isrealis being on the verge of destruction will most likely ignite a larger, more global conflagoration.
We need to be extremely careful here. I believe it safe to say the WTC/Pentagon/Attempted Whitehouse attacks were a direct result of the American Governments support of Isreal.
What are we to do?
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I have little patience with terrorist supporters. Whether you people realize this or not, that is exactly what you are.
I haven't seen him supporting terrorists. I hadn't written anything in support of terrorists either when you accused me of the same.
I'm still waiting for your apology.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I'm still waiting for your apology.
LOL!!
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That's kind of a trick question . Isrealis are palestinians .
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Hortlund,
Well, At least in my opinion the phrasing "pro-Israeli" is not the same thing as feeling that Israel has the right to exist. Pro-Israeli would go a bit deeper than that actually. For example, someone might say that I'm pro-Israeli. Someone might also say that Nashwan is pro-Palestinian. He and I have very different opinions about various aspects of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the idea that someone can be pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian at the same time is plain silly. The two sides are too far apart to combine into one.
You are absolutely right in expressing your opinion. I cannot disagree in what you believe in. However, my beliefs and yours are completely different on this matter. I however believe that it is against Israel's own long-term interest in continuing to victimize innocent Palestinian civillian casualties in her quest for a 'Greater Israel.' Too many innocent lives from both sides are being lost in this conflict. From my point of view, your reasoning that the civillian Palestinian casualties is ok (at least I haven't read anywhere that you are against them) is anti-Israeli to me. More and more innocent Israelis will lose their lives as a direct 'cause and effect' from Israeli military action.
Because you can't seem to comprehend that one can be for both the Palestinians and the Israelis having a homeland and living in secure borders doesn't make it silly. You need to understand that a fraction of both sides are responsible for the killings on both sides, not the majority. What I really find silly is your basic lack of understanding of what I stand for.
You also posted this in another thread:
The State sponsored terrorism by Israel under the guise or 'self defence' is no excuse. Sharon and the Israeli leadership are not interested in peace short of a Greater Israel and buffer zone. Period. All Sharon is insuring is the future continued attacks against Israelis by desperate Palestinian people (mainly those who have lost innocent family and friends from Israeli Military attacks, so called collateral casualties) who no longer have hope of self determination.
To me, it would be wrong to characterize someone who wrote that as "pro-Israeli" but perhaps you are of a different opinion?
Of coarse I have a different opinion. I have stated my opinions in this thread and others. Too bad you seem to have trouble comprehending what I or some others have been saying.
Maybe you're really not reading my statements at all, just glossing over them. Please read them. Try to understand them. Take your time.
I'm not admitting anything, I was asking
So you're admitting to nothing positive being done for the Palestinians?
Seriously though, what do you feel that Israel or the US "owes" to the Palestinians? The Pal track record against Israel isnt exactly spotless now is it?
Cause and effect retaliation. Or do you expect victims not to fight back?
Well, if we begin in 1967, you get Israel winning a war against her neighbors. After that the Palestinians start using guerilla tactics, then they escalate them into terrorist tactics. I suppose Israel should have lost the six days war instead to keep the Palestinians happy? Between 1967 and up to 1971 Israel was fighting a war of attrition against Egypt and Jordan. But this was a low scale, low intensity war, so I dont thing most people have even heard about it. Is this what you are aiming for?
Let's be more specific shall we? What did the Israelis do to some of the Palestinians after they won the Six Day War of '67?
Did any Palestinian people get moved against their will and without compensation?
Did any innocent Palestinian civillians get killed?
Please keep your answers to the questions of involvement between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Israel cannot win a war of attrition
Bingo, i'll quote that part of your sentence and agree.
As for the bio weapons thing. Actually I think Israel is the safest place in the world when it comes to the risk of bio weapons. Two reasons for this. First there are alot of arabs living in and close to Israel. Second most nations with bio weapons know that if Israel is hit by bio weapons, they will respond with nuclear weapons. The Israelis are the only ones with balls enough to nuke Baghdad or Damascus. Everyone knows this, thats why they wont attack with those weapons. The US are in severe danger of bio weapons though.
What happens to your first reason after Israel gets rid of the arabs and has a Greater Israel?
What happens to your second reason when the bioweapon is delivered in a small devise such as in an attache case? Test tube? Jar? I am not talking about chemical weapons, but biological. If biological weapons are delivered in Israeli territory by say an Israeli-looking person in an Israeli military uniform, what country would Israel nuke in responce? What about the radioactive fallout?
Your last sentence in the above quote I cannot agree more. As an American, I want to see a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine. At least the American position and actions can strive for that (which we aren't). Again, Cause and effect.
I dunno, as I said, I thought they started in 70. If you know of any previous hijack, you are more than welcome to educate me.
Wow! You're admitting that you don't know about something? Perhaps you should educate yourself, surely you have a book around somewhere that would point those hijackings of 68-69.
BTW, not all the answers can be found in books. You need to go out more and actually talk to those from both sides that actually lived there.
Gotta go to work, you have a good day.
wSNPR
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Maudib of Dune posted:
"We need to be extremely careful here. I believe it safe to say the WTC/Pentagon/Attempted Whitehouse attacks were a direct result of the American Governments support of Isreal.
What are we to do?"
Blame the Jews? seems to be in fashion still after all these years.
Wsnpr posted:
"...and what role did the Palestinians have in the event(s) in Europe?"
Ughh, you will have to forgive me. How many special SS police detachements went to Palestine in WW2? Yes, lets talk ALL about Israel and completely ignore the causes that created it. I cant beleieve you can compare the two Wsnpr. Really.
Hijackings in 1970 or 1968? Again...I mean...thats relevent to the discussion how??? Did they use 9mm or .380 auto pistols? what color was their hair?
Regards.
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Your parents wasted good money on your education LOL.
I think the following is the most bellybutton a nine statement ever put on this board LOL.
Hortlund, one of the biggest myths of all time is that North America had indiginous peoples here prior to 1492. In fact North America had no native population at all until around 1860 when we were invaded by tribes of Indians from Mexico and Central America.
These invaders slaughtered many white pioneer families throughout the Old West, but eventually we drove them back across the border with the exception of those we gave generous amounts of our land to in the form of reservations. See, we are kind conquorers. Either that or we were smart enough to wipe out the previous tenants.
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Q: Does it matter what lawyers choose to call it?
A: No it doesn't, do you ask the tick you find attached to your apple after a day in the field if he's full and will release his grip....or do you get the tweezers and pluck the offensive parasite from your skin?
The arab terrorists are targeting the wrong people, they should be killing lawyers if they want to do some good.
After all, they are the vermin who haved legalized the theft of their land.
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Originally posted by rc51
Your parents wasted good money on your education LOL.
I think the following is the most bellybutton a nine statement ever put on this board LOL.
Hortlund, one of the biggest myths of all time is that North America had indiginous peoples here prior to 1492. In fact North America had no native population at all until around 1860 when we were invaded by tribes of Indians from Mexico and Central America.
These invaders slaughtered many white pioneer families throughout the Old West, but eventually we drove them back across the border with the exception of those we gave generous amounts of our land to in the form of reservations. See, we are kind conquorers. Either that or we were smart enough to wipe out the previous tenants.
Hey rc51 (what kind of a handle is that? Are you trying to get a part in the next Star Wars sequel?) where do you get off calling that post asinine??? That's insulting and absolutely not true. I have written many posts much more asinine than that one, and in fact that one doesn't even rate in my top 20 of most asinine posts. Ask anybody.
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Actually I like it Elf. I rank it 5.
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Originally posted by wsnpr
You are absolutely right in expressing your opinion. I cannot disagree in what you believe in. However, my beliefs and yours are completely different on this matter.
Fine.
I however believe that it is against Israel's own long-term interest in continuing to victimize innocent Palestinian civillian casualties in her quest for a 'Greater Israel.' Too many innocent lives from both sides are being lost in this conflict. From my point of view, your reasoning that the civillian Palestinian casualties is ok (at least I haven't read anywhere that you are against them) is anti-Israeli to me. More and more innocent Israelis will lose their lives as a direct 'cause and effect' from Israeli military action.
You are absolutely right in expressing your opinion. I cannot disagree in what you believe in. (But it gets really boring really fast dont you agree?)
Because you can't seem to comprehend that one can be for both the Palestinians and the Israelis having a homeland and living in secure borders doesn't make it silly. You need to understand that a fraction of both sides are responsible for the killings on both sides, not the majority. What I really find silly is your basic lack of understanding of what I stand for.
Again, you are completely correct, not only do I lack a basic understanding of what you stand for, one might go as far as to say that I have no idea whatsoever as to what you stand for. The problem however is this sentence: "one can be for both the Palestinians and the Israelis having a homeland and living in secure borders." Now, are you stating an opinion (in which case I'll make sure not to disagree with it, since I cant disagree with an opinion) or is this something open to debate? I e, would it be ok if I tried to point out why that idea is a pipe dream.
So you're admitting to nothing positive being done for the Palestinians?
No.
Cause and effect retaliation. Or do you expect victims not to fight back?
The minute they embark on their intifada, they are victims no longer. Take a look at the arab track record in the region.
Total number of "real" wars: 5
Wars started by or caused by arabs: 4
Why are you referring to them as "victims"?
Let's be more specific shall we? What did the Israelis do to some of the Palestinians after they won the Six Day War of '67?
Perhaps a too general question dont you agree?
Did any Palestinian people get moved against their will and without compensation?
No. Did any Israeli politician, soldier and/or officer try to convince Palestinians not to flee and instead stay where they were?
Did any innocent Palestinian civillians get killed?
Most probably. Any innocent Israeli civilians?
What happens to your first reason after Israel gets rid of the arabs and has a Greater Israel?
Israel will still have arab neighbors, and arabs living inside Israel (cheap workforce).
What happens to your second reason when the bioweapon is delivered in a small devise such as in an attache case? Test tube? Jar? I am not talking about chemical weapons, but biological. If biological weapons are delivered in Israeli territory by say an Israeli-looking person in an Israeli military uniform, what country would Israel nuke in responce? What about the radioactive fallout?
In no particular order: Iran, Iraq, Syria. As for the fallout, by using small nukes, air bursts at favorable weather conditions, the Israelis should be able to make sure that any radioactive fallout stays inside Iran, Iraq and/or Syria.
Wow! You're admitting that you don't know about something? Perhaps you should educate yourself, surely you have a book around somewhere that would point those hijackings of 68-69.
But I asked you. Why cant you tell me about those hijackings? After all I told you about the civil war in Jordan.
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Again, you are completely correct, not only do I lack a basic understanding of what you stand for, one might go as far as to say that I have no idea whatsoever as to what you stand for.
Agreed. That one is obvious.
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Please read everything before responding, thanks. :)
Let's look at some of the major Palestinian terrorist incidents and perhaps see if there is a reason for such incidents:
I was ready to answer your questions right up until the above statement. I do not care who you are or what you believe in, there is no justification for terrorism. Pretty much the same idea as when Juliani sent the Saudi donation check back.
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Originally posted by Tumor
quote:
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Originally posted by wsnpr
Please read everything before responding, thanks.
Let's look at some of the major Palestinian terrorist incidents and perhaps see if there is a reason for such incidents:
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I was ready to answer your questions right up until the above statement. I do not care who you are or what you believe in, there is no justification for terrorism. Pretty much the same idea as when Juliani sent the Saudi donation check back.
Tumor,
The terrorism still continues....and will continue (unfortunetely) Innocent civillians from both sides have been, are being, and will be killed/wounded.
I'd like your definition of terrorism.
Do you classify when innocent Palestinians die from Israeli actions also as terrorism? If you don't think so, do you think the Palestinians can clasify it as terrorism?
We all know that we feel the suicide bombings as terrorism.
Don't you think it would be wise to find out WHY so many people are willing to die for their cause in the killing/wounding of others?
As another has stated before: End the occupation, end the suicide bombings.
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The combined arms of the Arab League could not defeat Israel. The Arabs have lost 3 wars. Now they whine and complain and seek to recover territory.
The Palestinians sided with the Arabs in these wars. They lost. Arafat has stated many times that their foremost objective is to agree to any thing to get some land back. Then they could wage war again.
The Palestinians would have a greater life span and style if they would make peace and get on with living their lives. Look at the poverty Arafat has brought them. They don't have his wealth..