Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on May 24, 2002, 02:44:03 AM
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I just read on http://www.haaretzdaily.com/ (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/).
Iran tests ballistic missile that can reach Israel.
Why is this allowed?Oh yes many of you say:"Who cares about Israel?".But how long do You think it`ll take them to make missiles that can reach LA? And if they succeed in destroying Israel,what will make them belive they can`t take on the USA?
Or is it impossible? "They`re just too dumb to develop something like that?"-You might say.I think they can.
We have a problem,and allmost everyone is hiding behind denial.
WTF is the world waiting for?Why do we have to delay what needs to be done?Who`s gonna do this if not us?
I don`t care what the analists say about how capable it is now.They want these missles because they want to use them.With time given to them to do whatever they want,they`ll get it right.
Are You terrorist lovers ready to go everyday to the local mosque yet?
They will make You...You know that.
And I read about the latest bombing attempt,that was foiled by a security guard.He was gonna blow up a dance club.
Aiming for kids...just as usual.
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LOL - you are really fanatic - arent you?
Why should it not be allowed that Iran has such weapons?
Its an independent country with a great and long history and I think its absolutely OK that they have their own weapons to defend themself.
Just check their neighbors and you will find out who they fear - surely not Israel.
They are surrounded by arabs - and some of them, like Iraq, have already attacked Iran before.
I visited Iran during a medical congress last year. I have been in Teheran, Isfahan and also visited the impressive ancient site of Persepolis.
Its maybe strange for you - but I never met fanatics or hate or anti-christian sentiments.
Its a devoloping country. They build their own automobiles, their own planes and VTOLīs. I was very impressed when I saw this, because I thought before that it was impossible for a third-world country to have such industry.
I even drove one of their Peykan-cars - it remembered me of a german car of the 80ties - but it was an operational and good working car.
Its only logical that a country with such a potential also build their own military vehicles, VTOLs, jet fighters and missiles - especially if you consider that they were under embargos long time.
So they were forced to increase their own abilities and the results are impressive.
I personally dont think that Iran will attack a neighbor-country or Israel - they havent done this in the last 100 years.
During the 2nd Gulf War they didnt sided with the muslim-country Iraq when it was fighted by christian-western nations - they remained neutral.
During the Armenia-Azerbeidjan-War they didnt supported the muslim Azerbeidjan but the christian Armenia.
During the Taliban War they supported the Anti-Taliban-faction long before the Western nations intervened last year.
No - I cant see any evidence that Iran has made or will make a military attack against others.
The real enemy of Iran are the arabs.
When I was there and discussed with some of my iranian collegues some of them described the arabs as the eternal enemy of the iranian race. There was no solidarity for them.
They have with Saddam a mad arab directly at their border, who had attacked Iran before, who sent his missiles against iranian cities - so they have every right to threaten this mad dog with missiles, jets, tanks and whatever if he decides to attack Iran again.
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I personally dont think that Iran will attack a neighbor-country or Israel - they havent done this in the last 100 years.
You gotto be blind.
Just look up how many terrorist groups are supported by Iran,both financially and morally.Hezbollah is one of them.
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There is a big difference in sending terrorists money and small weapons in cause of supporting them and the use of the official military with tanks, missiles, jets.
Iran is surely guilty in supporting organisiations who we from the western nations are calling terrorists.
But they have never attacked a neighbor country with their military first.
OK - there is one case:
In WW2 Iran was invaded and occupied by british and soviet forces.
With soviet help the Kurds established an independant republic in the northern Iran.
Shortly after the WW2 and after the occupation ended and the foreign troops withdrew the Iranian Army attacked and destroyed the Kurd Republic and recaptured their territory.
But this is the only case I know when the iranian military attacked a foreign country.
In all other cases during the last hundred years they were attacked.
You could compare the invasion attempt of Saddam in the 80ties against Iran with the shock of the USA when Pearl Harbor happened.
So they still fear arab attacks and build up their military against them.
Dont underestimate them. They are not so stupid to start an open war against Israel or the USA - they know that they would be destroyed within few days.
These second class wepons (compared to our western high tech) are planned to be used against arab attackers - who also has these second class weapons.
Look what they have: the technical inferior MiG 29īs, old F-4, F-5īs, some own built jet fighters which is surely no match for a western craft, russian tanks and now some missiles.
Do you really believe that these scrap is to be used for an attack against a hightech-military nation?
I dont think so. Just check the iranian foreign-policy of the last cebntury - there is no eveidence for such an assumption.
So - just try to reduce your fanatism and dont consider every muslim country as a part of a big coherent muslim coalitionforce which wants to destroy full of hate and fanatism all the non-muslim countries.
There is no muslim solidarity - there is even no arab solidarity.
During the 1st Gulf War the arab Syria helped the non-arab Iran against the arabian Iraq.
The muslim non-arab countries like Turkey or Iran will surely not help any arab nation with their official military.
The muslims are not unite and surely will never be. This is only a dream of them and a maybe nightmare of you - but it is not real.
So just calm down. The world is better than it seems to be after you have seen the news reports.
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I still don't see why the USA has to stick their neck out so far to help Israel, when what we get in return is ........what?
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Originally posted by LtHans
I still don't see why the USA has to stick their neck out so far to help Israel, when what we get in return is ........what?
Uh, how far do you think your war against Al Queida would have come without help from Mossad? US intel assets in the mid east are pretty much non-existent. Mossad on the other hand has the best intel in the world in that region.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
US intel assets in the mid east are pretty much non-existent.
I'm not sure about the accuracy of this statement.
-Sikboy
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Let me clarify then.
US intel assets on the ground ( = spies, agents etc) in the mid east are pretty mucn non-existent.
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Didn't america support el salvador death squads ????
nobody is clean
religion is just a tool
there r good moslims
there bad moslims
there good christians
there bad christians (think sebrenica)
religion can be diddlyed up isn't it ?
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And btw it's the totally tubular CIA who trained osama :eek:
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Nice of you to lump all muslims together, Caligula. I suppose all muslims want to fire ballistic missiles at Israel just like all Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews.:rolleyes:
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If you live in LA Caligula and Iran wants missles to get there...I'm all for it.
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Quote:
"Nice of you to lump all muslims together, Caligula. I suppose all muslims want to fire ballistic missiles at Israel just like all Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews."
Hmm, it's certain that ALL Germans didn't want "to exterminate the Jews"(and homosexuals, Gypsies, and anyone else the Nazis didn't like). However, the German people sure as hell paid a heavy price for their "i know nothing", "we didn't know of such things", "i'm not political", "Hitler gave us jobs, we didn't know he was a bad man", "i was afraid to speak out" support of the murderous, totalitarian Nazi regime. Tragically, in the end "Good Germans" died along with the rest.
I'm fairly certain that the Russians didn't bother to sort the "Good Germans" from the "Bad" when the Red Army advanced through Germany on the way to Berlin. And i am also fairly certain that Germans, both "Good" and "Bad" were not too popular in Nazi Occupied Europe.
Reap the whirlwind..........
Cabby
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Let me clarify then.
US intel assets on the ground ( = spies, agents etc) in the mid east are pretty mucn non-existent.
That sounds about right :)
-Sikboy
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True, every country has the right to defend itself.
IMO the problem isn't the governments or 'countries' having nukes..
it's the fanatics getting hold of them for their own uses.
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Denial....
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You aren't on a plane to Isreal yet?
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Iran is surely guilty in supporting organisiations who we from the western nations are calling terrorists.
But they have never attacked a neighbor country with their military first.
:rolleyes:
Okay, so they give their missiles to terrorists who then fire them at Israel or the USA. What's the difference?
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Originally posted by koala
:rolleyes:
Okay, so they give their missiles to terrorists who then fire them at Israel or the USA. What's the difference?
Kinda like how the US gives the IDF missles to blow up Palatinians, guilty and innocent alike?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Let me clarify then.
US intel assets on the ground ( = spies, agents etc) in the mid east are pretty mucn non-existent.
And you know this how?
It seems to me that if in fact you were truly privy to this information you wouldn't be posting it here.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
And btw it's the totally tubular CIA who trained osama :eek:
Do you have a source with a link for this information?
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i thought it was common knowledge that the CIA trained Oasma and Co. to fight the ruskies. No need for a link for the info.
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Won't anyone think of the children! :rolleyes:
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Denial....
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Originally posted by weazel
Won't anyone think of the children! :rolleyes:
lol
Tronsky
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
You gotto be blind.
Just look up how many terrorist groups are supported by Iran,both financially and morally.Hezbollah is one of them.
The IRA is partially funded by American dollars, raised in the US, but no-one considers for a sec the morality of the US owning ballistic missiles or chemical/biological weapons.
One of the problems that many sovereign states have is what they consider to be the arrogance and double sided attitude of US foreign policy.
eg.
Kinda like how the US gives the IDF missles to blow up Palatinians, guilty and innocent alike?
True, every country has the right to defend itself.
Iran will never be allowed to develop these weapons of mass destruction (an inept and absurd phrase) because it doesn't follow the accepted tenets of western society. Despite how modern or developed it dsires to become as Babek has posted.
One man's developing country is another's rogue state.
This is the quagmire that the international community often finds itself, when nations can threaten nuclear retaliation when chastising a real threat like Iraq.
Tronsky
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The IRA is partially funded by American dollars, raised in the US, but no-one considers for a sec the morality of the US owning ballistic missiles or chemical/biological weapons.
One of the problems that many sovereign states have is what they consider to be the arrogance and double sided attitude of US foreign policy.
eg.
Those IRA dollars might be funded by individuals who sympatise with the Irish cause,but I doubt it`s a state level aid the US government is giving to a known terrorist organisation.
And nobody`s really worried about the US just launching missiles at countries,just because "We don`t like them".
On the other hand the money that goes to the Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad etc. is coming staright from the rulers of Iran.
Can You see the difference?
Iran will never be allowed to develop these weapons of mass destruction (an inept and absurd phrase) because it doesn't follow the accepted tenets of western society. Despite how modern or developed it dsires to become as Babek has posted.
Well...who`s gonna stop them?It looks like You guys are all for letting them do as they want.
This "we`ll never allow that" and "it`ll never happen" talk just doesn`t cut it,when actually nobody`s doing anything about it.
That is the point:they don`t want to be accepted by western society.They don`t want what You think is great about how You live.They want it all destroyed and rebuilt muslim style.
You guys are ready just like your grandparents were to sacrifice the jews before You reallize what You`re really dealing with.
Nobody gave a toejam about what was going on in Germany before the war."They kill jews in germany?Oh well..."
Why should any jew ever trust in anyone to come and save them?
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
You guys are ready just like your grandparents were to sacrifice the jews before You reallize what You`re really dealing with.
LOL ! :D
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
You guys are ready just like your grandparents were to sacrifice the jews before You reallize what You`re really dealing with.
Nobody gave a toejam about what was going on in Germany before the war."They kill jews in germany?Oh well..."
Why should any jew ever trust in anyone to come and save them?
LOL - How funny you are.
Try to realize one fact: Humans cant be put into collectives - they are always individuals who are sometimes sharing the same interest.
But there are not THE muslims or THE arabs or THE jews or THE christians.
When we start again to condemn people collectively only because of their race, religion or skin colour (like you are doing with THE muslims and the nazis did decades before with THE jews) we would be really like you accuse us.
But so you use the same arguments the nazis did before.
Funny to see that even a jew could behave the same way like the persons he hate most.
Try to put down the hate and paranoia - then life will be better.
Otherwise your hate will consume you.
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"Those IRA dollars might be funded by individuals who sympatise with the Irish cause,but I doubt it`s a state level aid the US government is giving to a known terrorist organisation.
And nobody`s really worried about the US just launching missiles at countries,just because "We don`t like them".
On the other hand the money that goes to the Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad etc. is coming staright from the rulers of Iran.
Can You see the difference? "
What about US goverments support of the muhajadin and the contras.
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What about the US government's inaction in declaring splinter groups of the IRA to be terrorist organisations?
3 years after Omagh, members of the Real IRA could come and go as they please in the US. Talk about sloth-like.
As Bob Geldoff recently pointed out, Omagh was NI's Sept 11th.
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Originally posted by babek-
I personally dont think that Iran will attack a neighbor-country or Israel - they havent done this in the last 100 years.
You have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Who do you think is behind certain entities like Hamas, Hizbullah, etc etc? If thats not an attack on a neighbor what is?
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What about US goverments support of the muhajadin and the contras.
As far as I know they were targeting military targets,not civilians.
That makes a differnce.
To the rest of You:
The most important duty someone owes to themselves,to their ancestors and to their nation is survival.
I don`t blame You for it,but You guys just don`t understand what it`s like to grow up listening to stories about how my grandmother was building concrete bunkers for the nazis as a slave in Vienna,and how only her and her cusin were the only survivors of her family.Than opening up a book about history and reading about slavery,invadors,pogroms,inquisition,death-camps..etc.4000 years of abuse.
All this did not happen to You.
You say that was the past,and We should just move on.
Right...would be nice,but what I see around isn`t so nice.
I see the whole arab world bent on killing jews,I see antisemitism rising in Europe.So what should make me belive that the evil that did the holocaust is gone and never coming back again?
This is not a fight for land or religion but for survival.
I say it once more:Jews will never let themselves to be in other nations mercy.They might get wiped out at the end,but it`ll be a hellova fight.
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Yep and most likely in future Palestinians talk how their ancestors fought against Israel. So what ?
Face the facts: Israeli people have to learn how to live with Palestinians and vice versa. The route Sharon took doesn't lead anywhere.
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Caligula, ive read that 20 million people were executed during Stalins dictatorship. Now THATS one helluva holocaust, but wheres all the paranoid russians?
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All this roadkill over religion , what is it good for ? Other than a good reason to wipe out your nieghbor , I see no good coming from it :( praise the lord and pass the ammunition
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Originally posted by Tumor
You have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Who do you think is behind certain entities like Hamas, Hizbullah, etc etc? If thats not an attack on a neighbor what is?
Just try to read the text again.
We discuss the fear of some that Iran will use its BALLISTIC MISSILES against a neighbor or Israel.
Not the low support of what they define freedomfighters but the use of high-level military hardware like jets, tanks or ballistic missiles.
The Hamas and the Hisbollah are for us from the West terrorists but the terrorist of the one side is the freedom fighter of the other.
The Mujjaheddin were terrorists for the Soviets during their occupation of Afghanistan while they were freedom fighters for the western nations - including the USA who delivered them weapons like the high-tech Stinger missiles.
The Taliban were also supported as freedom fighters by the pro-western Pakistan until the definition changed.
So - again: I dont fear the ballistic missiles of Iran.
Actually I fear more those of the non-axis-of evil-countries Pakistan and India who are playing with the fire... :(
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As far as I know they were targeting military targets,not civilians.
~Caligula~,
The Contras usually attacked civillian, not military targets. Around 30,000 casualties in that war most civillian. Majority of the contra membership was made up of former National Guard/Military Police (brutal hencemen of the 'anti-democratic' Somoza regime.) CIA trained and funded in terror tactics. There were also members of the Contras that came from the northern area along the border with Honduras. Those were from the indiginous Miskiou Indians that really never were bothered by the Somoza regimes (going back to about '33) as the area was mountainous and of no real value to the Somozas.
Dern no more time....I'll try to continue if you wish....gotta go to work. The contras were terrorists, not the equivilent to our founding fathers as Reagan has quoted.
Regards,
wSNPR
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We discuss the fear of some that Iran will use its BALLISTIC MISSILES against a neighbor or Israel.
Not the low support of what they define freedomfighters but the use of high-level military hardware like jets, tanks or ballistic missiles.
The Hamas and the Hisbollah are for us from the West terrorists but the terrorist of the one side is the freedom fighter of the other.
And why do You think theysupport your "FREEDOM FIGHTERS"
and not go in a full scale conventional attack?
If You can`t figure it out I`ll tell you.
Because they know if they did,they`d lose again.
That`s why they`re developing weapons,so in the future they`ll have a better chance.
BTW what the diddly does it matter what the other side think of what terrorists are?They are terrorists....period.
Caligula, ive read that 20 million people were executed during Stalins dictatorship. Now THATS one helluva holocaust, but wheres all the paranoid russians?
Can You show me if there`s any kind of pattern in russian history,about things like that happening over and over again?
Face the facts: Israeli people have to learn how to live with Palestinians and vice versa. The route Sharon took doesn't lead anywhere.
Please tell me how would You learn to live with your neighbour if he was trying to murder You your family and friends.Would giving him the backyard solve it?
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The Contras usually attacked civillian, not military targets. Around 30,000 casualties in that war most civillian. Majority of the contra membership was made up of former National Guard/Military Police (brutal hencemen of the 'anti-democratic' Somoza regime.) CIA trained and funded in terror tactics. There were also members of the Contras that came from the northern area along the border with Honduras. Those were from the indiginous Miskiou Indians that really never were bothered by the Somoza regimes (going back to about '33) as the area was mountainous and of no real value to the Somozas.
I`m sorry,but I`m not sure where You trying to go with this.
You mean it`s ok for Iran to sponsor the Hamas and Hezbollah so they can go murder more kids,just because the US once upon time made a mistake by helping a bunch of bloodthirsty idiots?
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Please tell me how would You learn to live with your neighbour if he was trying to murder You your family and friends.Would giving him the backyard solve it?
Well maybe they should get the fu_k out from the "backyard" they don't even have rights to be in.
Usually civilized people don't build settlements to another peoples land outside of the borders of their own country.
If Israeli people and palestinians can't learn to live together then they die together.
Time to bring up antisemitist card again eh ?
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So if that neghbour was shooting at your kids from that backyard,would that give You a good enough reason to go and do something about it?
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I checked my neighbors and I am lucky to report that their nuclear ballistic missiles are not pointed at my house or my car
:D
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Caligula in that situation I would have two choices:
1) Kill that sob and wait if his relatives would come to blow my house to the hell or...
2) Call the cops and let them do their work.
If I would take the first choice I wouldn't cry if neighbors relatives would kick my ass.
Anyway I wouldn't build houses for my relatives to my neighbours backyard 'cause I know he would be little angry to me... If I would do it I would expect him to blow that house away or use a Caterpillar to move it down.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
So if that neghbour was shooting at your kids from that backyard,would that give You a good enough reason to go and do something about it?
~Caligula~,
Let's take this further shall we? Let's say that you were kicked out of your house and told to leave your neighborhood. Some of your friends and family were killed in the process. You were not compensated in any way. You're telling us that
that you wouldn't fight back or that you wouldn't be angry?
It's all about cause and effect. It's really sad that you're missing that point.
I'll make some personal points about you that I feel to be true:
1) You truly love the idea that an independent nation called Israel exist within secure, safe borders.
2) Because of reason #1, Jews the world over can have a homeland where they can live in peace and security without having to worry about prejudice and hatred (which they've had to deal with for centuries.)
3) You are a compassionate individual as some of your posts show just how much you care.
You want to know what though? I also care about reasons 1 and 2 above. We just disagree on how the Israelis should go about it. I feel victimizing and killing others to further my own goals is wrong, because in doing so, I am creating more and more enemies interested in nothing more than eliminating me and my people. It's all about cause and effect. Always has been and always will be.
Regards
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Those IRA dollars might be funded by individuals who sympatise with the Irish cause,but I doubt it`s a state level aid the US government is giving to a known terrorist organisation.
And nobody`s really worried about the US just launching missiles at countries,just because "We don`t like them".
Thats a fairly simplistic view, however there is a merry-go-round of arguments about governmental support of various factions to support it's foreign policy, and the old cold war spheres of influence.
That is the point:they don`t want to be accepted by western society.They don`t want what You think is great about how You live.They want it all destroyed and rebuilt muslim style.
Should they need to be accepted by western standards?
The text book Islamic faith has guidelines that no one can be forced to follow Islam, however obviously a myriad of arguments are fought over the perversion of all religious tenets to serve various purposes, state and otherwise. Religion is truly the opium of the people.
I personally believe that Iran has no real interest at all in destroying this country.
You guys are ready just like your grandparents were to sacrifice the jews before You reallize what You`re really dealing with.
Actually my grandfather joined up immediately after New Zealand declared war on Germany in 1939.
I wonder if Jews are grateful about his then possible ultimate sacrifice in their supposed unintentional liberation?
Tronsky