Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on May 24, 2002, 11:24:20 AM
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it is about the worst flying plane in aces high.
109s have better highspeed handing and better e retention.
kinda sad.
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and it's unstable... just slips left 'n right.
Why it's perked and the 109G10, 190D9, P51D, and N1K2 aren't is beyond me.
-SW
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id like to see it unperked.
id rather fight spit14s in its current state of modelling than spit 5's and 9's
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Yadda yadda show your data.
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Uhm, I don't need data to show that it's unstable.
Go fly it. 109G10 is by far a better gun platform... and it's got a 30mm cannon.
-SW
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Then it should be very different offline than online.
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Does HTC ever post the data that they used to model these aircraft?
It seems to me the Russians have never told the truth when releasing data on military equipment. The west has always had to get our hands on a real piece of equipment and test it ourselves to get real data.
That brings us to the La-7, I mean, as long as we're talking about how planes fly whether good or bad, I figured I'd rub more salt in the wound.
I'd love to see what data HTC used to model this plane. IMO, it's way way overmodeled and any half baked dweeb flying one can rack up kills. The plane has virtually no weaknesses. I don't believe this plane was ever this good...ever. I was watching Discovery Wings the other night and they profiled this plane, the Russian pilot even said his squad feared the 109 even up until the end of the war because it was a superior aircraft than the La-7. I just smiled.
I understand the fact that HTC is in the business of making money and they need to have a complete dweeb plane so newbees can fly it and get kills, thus not canceling their account. Warbirds did this with the mighty P-38L that could outturn a friggin Zeke. I just think it's a shame that data has to be fudged.
Give us the real La-7 or perc the current La-7, right now it's an overmodeled Russian propaganda dream machine.
Kuben
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Well, I could go fly it (as I have) and claim it's the most stable plane in the game (just the sake of the argument) and I would be just as much right as you are as neither of us have anything to back our words up with.
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Okay, what data can you use to possibly show that it yaws left and right whenever you roll?
I know, there is no data you can get.
This is something very evident if you watch the screen. Other planes roll around as if they are attached to a pole.
-SW
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...in your opinion, that is. :)
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No, in comparison to other planes.
You're prolly just arguing because I think the best LW planes need to be perked if the SpitXIV is.
-SW
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So, did you two get together on this Troll, or is this all ad lib?
-Sikboy
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Heh, Wulfe, I think Wmaker is just pointing out the usual behaviour on this board when someone "whines" about a plane... and you are one of the jumpier ones... ;)
BTW, always advocated the D9, G10, P51 and alike to be perked!!
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I've always believed the 109G10, 190D9, P51D, La7 and N1K2-J should be perked along with the SpitXIV.
They're all 1944 planes. They're all ubergood compared to everything else.
And they all (with exception to N1K2-J) have earlier varients available.
-SW
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The reason why I'm arguing is because of these incredibly scientific arguments like : "it is about the worst flying plane in aces high".
AFAIK planes are perked according to their usage alone (impact to the main arena). If any planes usage goes way higher than any other plane's usage then it should be perked no matter which plane it is.
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Originally posted by Kirin
Heh, Wulfe, I think Wmaker is just pointing out the usual behaviour on this board when someone "whines" about a plane...
Kirin hits the jackpot.
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My fave plane right now is Spit 14..It's a roping monster!
48:3 kills/death......
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Well, no not really. One plane was perked based on it's usage.
All other planes were perked before even being introduced (except the 262 and other perk planes that came with that one... but that was due to server bugs or something.. and only lasted for a day or 2)
And what I'm saying is that the plane is unstable. It's not opinion, it's not something I can prove - right now, I'm at work- no joystick- no way to roll- .. otherwise I'd have already made a video comparing the lateral instability of the SpitXIV vs the planes I mentioned before.
Yes, the worst plane flying in AH and other stuff is simply rhetoric prolly just to start a huge flame fest. (gave away Cit's bait)
However, the lateral instability is something I noticed my first flight out in the thing (and only flight in it)... which gave me ammunition to reiterate that I believe the aforementioned planes should be perked with it.
Usage or not, I think the late war uber rides should be something you earn. Whether through perk points or simply attaining a good rank or whatever (which is very easy- even the shoddiest of players can get a good rank which is why I propose it. Check out my rank, it blows da big one so I ain't advocating this for me)..
Anyways, if it were anything but a Spitfire, there'd be more supporters.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Okay, what data can you use to possibly show that it yaws left and right whenever you roll?
-SW
Heuuu... the Jeppesen private pilot manual, chapter on the "adverse yaw"? ... sry ... borred at work.:p
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Like all fighters that fought from 1940 to 1945, the Spit saw major power increases in an attempt to squeeze more performance from the basic design.
Every increase in engine size and horsepower exacted penalties in weight and manuverability. Three blade propellers of the Mark V gave way to four blades on the Mark IX and five blades on the Mark XIV. The use of these blades led to increased torque and twisting forces that increased stress on the airframe, necessitating strengthening of the airframe structure. The increases in weight that resulted required the landing gear to be strengthened. By the end of the war the 6,500 pound loaded weight of the Spit V and ballooned to 10,000 pounds in the Mark XIV. During the war, the Spitfire actually gained more weight than the Me-109.
One of the tests of manuverability that Spitfire test pilots at Castle Bromwich used was to throw the Spitfire into a flick roll to see how many unassisted rolls the fighter would perform before stabilizing itself. With the Mark V they got two and a half flick rolls. In the Mark IX they got only one and a half. In the later models they got even less. The late-war Spitfires weren't the delight to fly that the early war models had been.
It is not surprising that the Spit XIV modeled in Aces High is more difficult to handle or kill in when flown as a pure turn-and-burn fighter.
Regards, Shuckins
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Yep, one plane was perked according to its usage. As I said planes impact to the MA is (accoring to pyro) the only deciding factor if a plane gets perked or not (for example, if almost 50% of the population in MA is flying a single plane type then it sure makes an impact). No matter how good the plane is if it isn't used much in the MA it won't be perked since it doesn't have an unbalancing impact in the MA. This is the view of HTC as I remember it (couldn't find the exaclt news-post to quote it). Of course it's HTC's decision to determine what planes get perked. As I said according to pyro unbalancing impact to the MA is the only deciding factor when HTC makes this decision.
Other personal *opinions* on how perk-system should work are just opinions. HTC has chosen its policy and it's the only policy that actually matters.
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seems sir loin has an entirely different feel for the spit 14 then the rest.
The burden of proof is on ther claimant. A lot of us have felt planes like the typhoon and temp with their thick wing dive too well while a plane like the 190d9 are terrible in high speed dives.
Seems several folks actual went a got data to show this but where scoffed at.
I dont care if the spit14 blows up when it hits 350mph or that its even in ah perked or unperked but threads like this always demonstrat what we all know. Theres a complete different standard by folks on this board.
"the spit 14 is beyond crappy" :rolleyes:
well sir loin seems to do ok in it.
The same thing when folks were whining about the 110. I guy made a psot with very little supporting evidence and suddenly its fact. Folks actually had to prove the whiners wrong.
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Granted, when one plane constitutes 20% or more of the arena usage it will be perked according to HTC's guidelines.
However, my point is that the guidelines should change. There was a thread several weeks (maybe even a month or so ago) that had the plane usage and highlighted various planes.
Of the planes I mentioned, two of them held almost 20% of the kills (together) in the MA for a single tour. Think it was last tour. P51D and N1K2-J. The La-7 held 7.4% of the total arena kills.
The 109G10 and 190D9 are naturally not as popular, however when you look at their brethren then you see that it's basically "grab the bestest latest ride"..
The 190D9 had 3.88% and the 109G10 had 3.47%.
The 190A5 and A8 (F8 excluded since it's a Jabo) had 2.76%... combined.
The 109G2, F4 and G6 had 2.45% combined. I excluded the E4 because I don't know if it was in for the whole tour.
The chart is in this thread: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49959&highlight=perk
I know all I have is an opinion, I never said it was anything otherwise. However, when you look at these statistics it's obvious that making them low perk point rides (2-3 perk points, c'mon you can get that in one flight!) would up the usage in the MUCH less used variants and would bring more parity to the arena. As in, the early war rides don't have that much of a speed disadvantage over the other rides that would be common.
Wotan, SirLoin might do well in it (hell, I got 5 kills in it without dying and rtbed... I don't have a problem in it either) but that doesn't mean it's not laterally unstable.
-SW
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You obviously can't fly it. Last night I flew it, started with upping from a field which was soon to be attacked, avoided all tiffies and 109's and got up to 12k, then turned back, made a few passess, as soon as anyone, even the 109's got close I simply climbed away.
After a while a high P51 and a 109 G10 came in, at that time I had 4 people on my 6 about 3k away (they had just killed F4UDOA in a nice normal MA gang bang). I simply climbed away, 3 out of the 6 broke off after 3 minutes, one died tomy guns as I simply came down on him, after that I sort of broke my wings in a high speed high G turn. If you think this plane shouldn't be perked ya might wanna learn how to fly it in the MA, it can with eas outclimb anything, even get away form fights by climbing, something not even the G10 can do, it's got great E-retation and exelent guns.
60 perks is just enough.
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Spit XIV rocks. I'd take it 1v1 against pretty much any plane in the game. What it can't outturn, it can outrun, outaccelerate, or outclimb. What it can't outrun, outaccelerate, or outclimb, it can typically outturn.
You get used to the torque and instability eventually.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I disagree Citabria.
For one, the Spit14 is very fast and has great acceleration. I'd put it almost on par with the La7 on this. Problem is, unlike the La7, the Spit14 can turn good and has great low and hi alt performance.
I do agree the price of all non-jet perk planes is very high, imo they shouldnt be more than 12 perks at the most.
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I can understand (and thats too much ) 10 perks but 60 is really over doing it. You getting JUST an engine for 60 perks.
Just a faster fabric skinned Spit :o
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Anyone know the current perk point prices for all the perked fighters? I think the F4U-1C was increased to 10 perks this tour, so have any of the others changed?
None of the prop planes we have should be more than 1/2 of what the Me262 is, IMO.
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none of the prop planes are more then 1/2 the 262 price.
i wont ever fly a spit 14 so i really dont care if its modelled right or not. But the fact is there are other folks who fly it and dont experience the instability you do. So the point woud be to demonstrat its instability then to show its not modelled correctly.
I do know that guys in my squad have flown it and are pretty confident it could give any plane in AH perked or unperked a whoopin. The only other plane on its level would be the temp.
As for reducing perks thats a different arguement. I have sorties where i have gotten over 70 perks. Quite a few over 50. So 10 20 30 40 50 would not make a bit of difference to me.
I dont think currently we need any more perk planes. I had advocated in the past that the g10 d9 la7 and p51d be perked to the same level as the chog. But after thinking it over none of these planes effect the main the way the chog did. If anything the next 2 planes that come close would be the la7 and p51d.
No way in hell should the spit ix and niki be perked.
I also believe if anything all the perk planes are too cheap and oughta by upped in price. I find it funny when fester complains of perk prices when he has gotten near 3000 kills per tour.
Also anyone remember lw folks saying this very same thing about the 152? Remember the response then?
:rolleyes:
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Perk Spit IX.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
and it's unstable... just slips left 'n right.
Why it's perked and the 109G10, 190D9, P51D, and N1K2 aren't is beyond me.
-SW
Yeah, it is a bit unstable in the yaw axis, hence the increase in vertical stablizer area. And yes, there's a great deal or torque to contend with. Both can be disconcerting to someone not familiar with these characteristics.
Yet I must ask, so what?
This fighter is a beast. I've flown it extensively during squad training nights in the TA. It is untouchable. Using the cliche, "flying rings around them" would not be misplaced. In the MA, I've found it considerably superior to the La-7 and P-51 in 1 on 1 combat with fairly decent sticks in the other fighters. It is the best "air superiority fighter" in the game, period. Seriously, it will make an average pilot look like a genius, as long as he uses the fighter's advantages, and avoids low-level, low-speed furballs, where anything can happen (and usually does).
BTW, Sir Loin is exactly correct. I've climbed right out of potential gangers, while my pursuers foundered below.
If I had to pick the three most dangerous aircraft (excluding jets)in this game, for the environment we fly in, I'd select the Spitfire XIV, Tempest and F4U-4 in order. In 4th place I'd pick the Hurricane IIC. That's right, the Hurri. Then the La-7, P-51, Dora and so on.
My regards,
Widewing
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I believe SW is trying to say that it just doesn't feel right.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Wilbus
You obviously can't fly it. Last night I flew it, started with upping from a field which was soon to be attacked, avoided all tiffies and 109's and got up to 12k, then turned back, made a few passess, as soon as anyone, even the 109's got close I simply climbed away.
is just enough.
I have to agree, maybe they have thier sticks too sensitive or just cant fly spits :p
Its easy to fly, handles well, I think its stable at high or low speeds
At least more stable than a 38...
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Weeelllll, speaking as a Spit XIV fan I have to say I really like the FM in AH. The WB Spit XIV was a joke.
As to it being perked, yes, absolutely it must be perked. I think all perk planes, even the 262, are too expensive, but especially the prop fighters which only enjoy a slight edge over the top end free fighters. I also disagree with the "gangbang icons", but both of these are separate issues.
(Please, please put 3D cam covers on the Spit XIV, the 2D ones look silly and the cockpit view is wrong without the 3D cam covers)
About perk modifications on the last adjustment.
F4U-1C, was 8 perks, +2 perks to 10 perks
Ta152H-1, was 30 perks, -10 perks to 20 perks
F4U-4, was 60 perks, -10 perks to 50 perks
All others remained the same.
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Originally posted by Widewing
If I had to pick the three most dangerous aircraft (excluding jets)in this game, for the environment we fly in, I'd select the Spitfire XIV, Tempest and F4U-4 in order. In 4th place I'd pick the Hurricane IIC. That's right, the Hurri. Then the La-7, P-51, Dora and so on.
interesting... what is it about the Hurri IIC that earns it a place in your list, Widewing? i've barely ever flown it, but given that it has an ENY score of 40 at the moment in the MA, i'm intrigued.
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wantok... 4X20mm , great turning, decent speed (not fast, but not horribly slow).
In short, its a snapshot plane. A high speed plane makes a pass at you, turn hard one way, reverse roll, turn hard back into him, shoot a few quad 20mms at him while hes at around d300~d600 . 1 or 2 pings is all you need . Once you get used to the 20mm ballistics you'll be able to snap a shot at almost anything from any angle and hit it, provided its in range. Its low ammo load is its only drawback :)
That hurricane is quite deadly if flown that way.
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334mph isn't horribly slow?:eek:
If that isn't horribly slow, praytell, what fighter in AH is?
Its slower than the A6M5b.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Granted, when one plane constitutes 20% or more of the arena usage it will be perked according to HTC's guidelines.
However, my point is that the guidelines should change. There was a thread several weeks (maybe even a month or so ago) that had the plane usage and highlighted various planes.
Of the planes I mentioned, two of them held almost 20% of the kills (together) in the MA for a single tour. Think it was last tour. P51D and N1K2-J. The La-7 held 7.4% of the total arena kills.
The 109G10 and 190D9 are naturally not as popular, however when you look at their brethren then you see that it's basically "grab the bestest latest ride"..
The 190D9 had 3.88% and the 109G10 had 3.47%.
The 190A5 and A8 (F8 excluded since it's a Jabo) had 2.76%... combined.
The 109G2, F4 and G6 had 2.45% combined. I excluded the E4 because I don't know if it was in for the whole tour.
The chart is in this thread: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49959&highlight=perk
I know all I have is an opinion, I never said it was anything otherwise. However, when you look at these statistics it's obvious that making them low perk point rides (2-3 perk points, c'mon you can get that in one flight!) would up the usage in the MUCH less used variants and would bring more parity to the arena. As in, the early war rides don't have that much of a speed disadvantage over the other rides that would be common.
Wotan, SirLoin might do well in it (hell, I got 5 kills in it without dying and rtbed... I don't have a problem in it either) but that doesn't mean it's not laterally unstable.
-SW
I'm of the opinion that new a/c should be intially unperked, assessed , then have some perk value attached after a proper time has passed. New aircraft are always common when introduced, but usually drop off after a time.
The Spit XIV should have been treated this way I feel. Lets see if it dominated before adding 60 pts, or add perks accordingly. I truly believe there was an anti-spitfire attitude by the AH community to its introduction and subsquent price tag. If it is such a dog, it's use will fall off and other similar unperked rides (P-51 etc) will still continue to dominate as before.
Tronsky
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When looking at the overall K/D's of the three fighters with somewhat same cost, we can find interesting figures;
Spit XIV: 564/417 = 1.35
F4U-4: 456/217 = 2.10
Tempest: 875/173 = 5.05! :eek:
Can't recall any other fighter ever having this high K/D.
I've flown Spit XIV few times only offline and I must say that I didn't find it too much uber comparing to spit IX. Perhaps its perk value should be decreased. It's kind of ironic to have best fighters ever flown in WWII in AH, but they are mostly hangar queens because of the cost. OTOH we have spits everywhere already...
IMO P-51, LA-7, SPIT IX and N1K2 should be cheap-perked. 109G-10 should not. 109's are quite rare in the MA nowadays.
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Originally posted by wantok
interesting... what is it about the Hurri IIC that earns it a place in your list, Widewing? i've barely ever flown it, but given that it has an ENY score of 40 at the moment in the MA, i'm intrigued.
Tac pretty much covered everything. Speed? Arrive at a fight with decent alt, and you have enough speed for most circumstances. How deadly is Hurricane IIC? Typically, you can get 4 kills per reload (just 91 rounds per gun). You also get bounced frequently, but avoidance isn't usually a problem, 'cause it turns so well. You'd be surprised how many guys try to HO the Hurri. That's a bad idea, as those 4 hizookas are devastating. The Hurricane IIC can make an average pilot, using sound judgement and sharp SA, look very good.
There is a down side. This is directly related to it's lack of speed. You must fight your way out of gangbangs, because you can't run. In addition, smart enemy pilots will avoid the Hurricane, unless they can blindside it. Since you cannot chase down enemies without an altitude advantage, opportunities are limited. Thus, you learn to kill enemies from angles you would not normally take a shot from. Anything less than those 4 Hispanos would make this very difficult. Your best bet is to work the edges of furball, starting high, working up and down, only turnfighting when you can isolate an enemy. Only the Zero can out-turn the Hurricane. Even so, at speeds above 250 mph, the Hurri can hold its own, and has a significant advantage in roll rate at higher speeds. Anytime you meet a Zeke on the merge, try to pinch and kill it off angle, Even if you miss, you have already started turning first, giving you a good chance for a deflection shot seconds later. Spitfires? If they elect to turnfight, they generally die.
How do you fight Hurricanes? Treat them like Zeros, but remember that their guns are far more lethal and any mistake can be instantly fatal.
My regards,
Widewing
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Some people reply without reading. Some people reply with the completely wrong thing after reading.
And then some people reply with their own jibber jabber about "I'm a god, it's not hard for me... why are you complaining?"
Well I'm not complaining and I don't find the plane particularly hard, as anyone with a pair of eyeballs below their forehead and above their mouth should be able to plainly see in one of my posts above.
However, the damn thing is still more unstable laterally than it's counterparts which are free.
I never said unperk the SpitXIV, I never said change the price. I said perk those aircraft cheaply and be done with this mythical perk system and give it some real meaning. As it is now, it's just used to perk *SOME* of the uber monsters while leaving others unleashed.
That makes about as much sense as urinating on a 1,000watt electric fence.
-SW
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I havent flown it this tour but my previous observations were pretty much what I expected. Its the fastest spit with the poorest ACM performance. And yes, its over perked but its not wrong. At least no more wrong, or right, than anything else that I can think of....
Bottom line, fly smartly or shaddup already ;)
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4 kills per reload in a hurriC??? lol
mebbe if u are strafing tanks...
SKurj
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SpitXIV, D-9, P51D and La7 belong to same category, IMO.
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However, the damn thing is still more unstable laterally than it's counterparts which are free.
So what?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So what?
So, read the entire thread. I said why.
-SW
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Your guys complaints are pointless, utterly pointlees.
I just test flew the SpitXIV and the Spit IX. Guess what?
The Spit XIV feels heavier and stiffer... No toejam? :rolleyes:
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SW, you took lessons of some prominent LW whiner ? ;)
Anyway, SpitXIV should be just as perked as Dora, Pony and Lame7.
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Bistro, If I have to kill 7 more 109's in your fartkruphmem band of tards, I'll be ill.
The first bellybutton whippin is still fond, you mean to make my amusment level expand even more? Cool.
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Lost pills again ?
(http://www.thegoodnamesweretaken.com/ProzacPez/images/Ready2bHappy.GIF)
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I have been flying the Spitfire XIV extensively in the CT. It has disappointed me in being much less maneuverable than the Spit IX. Get into a low dogfight with 2 109's, and you're dead. Get into a dogfight with 1 109 and once you have spent like 10 whole circles to out-turn him, you find out that it is a G6 with gonds!!!
Seriously! And I DO know how to turn.
Also turned it like 10 circles to get on the tail of a P51D once.
The difference is best found by jumping straight into a Spit IX. The IX feels insanely agile in comparison, quicker on all axis, and has a nicer stall. So, I switched over to the IX and I fare better in it!
I think HTC has done pretty well in modelling the speed and acceleration of the XIV. Its really fast and has good acceleration, - and it is a fairly agile plane. However, I think they chopped a wee-bit too much off its handling. From the British Air Fighting Development Unit report:
Turning Circle
18. The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Rate of Roll
19. Rate of roll is very much the same.
Well, planes have been tweaked and polished before, so I hope this pont will be taken into the view.
Now, somebody mentioned the Hurricane II as awesome. I have to agree up to a point. Four Hispanos in a plane that turns on a dime, also generally rolls and handles well is just great. It is slow though, but in the case of a low alt base defence it does not matter so much. IMOP the best defender against a CV raid. Well, maybe the Niki is better.........
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people comparing the spit 14 to the 9 is like me sayin the g10 is porked because it wont turn with a 109f :rolleyes:
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It is my impression that SpitXIV was never designed with turn performance in mind. It only inherits some of the potential from earlier Marks.
Use it as a G-10 and you'd rule the skies.
Use it as SpitIX and you only offer free perkies to lesser dweebs than yourself.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
I have to agree, maybe they have thier sticks too sensitive or just cant fly spits :p
Its easy to fly, handles well, I think its stable at high or low speeds
At least more stable than a 38...
Have never noticed any unstability in the p38 ?
unless i got one engine out :)
airguard
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I just tried it offline (account deleted so no online possible) in a short horizontal turning test.
And i found no difference between XIV and IX.
I could pull same Gs in both at low speed when riding the stallhorn. Only difference is that the XIV will turn a little bit better to the left.
And when speed and Gs are the same in a turn, turning circle is also the same.
There might be more of a psychological barrier when someone flies a spit XIV in the MA cause of the perks.
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I thought that Perking was not just to curve the ubber aircraft but to introduce a realistic NUMBER of certain aircraft.
ie if the spit XIV in real war was not in abundance then it will be perked in here regardless of wether its the best aircraft in AH or the worst.
Perking i thought was to keep a gameplay balance, if there was only a dozen or so of X aircraft in wwii then in here it willl be perked heavly.
Thast what i thought anyway, so i dosent matter what has got a better turning circle etc.
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So should the TA152 Hristo but that won't happen.
Production numbers shouldn't matter at all in the MA since it's not historical in any other way.
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The only time a Spit14 needs to turn is at the top of a rope at 80 mph as you lower those flaps and look down at your stalling out soon-to-be victim.
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Naudet, roll in one direction, then reverse in the other. It ain't the same as the SpitIX in the stability aspect.
Hell, I don't even fly the damn plane. Flew it once, got 5 kills, landed- end of story.
So quit turning this into I'm the one having problems, I don't have ANY problems with the plane. It's laterally unstable. There are uber rides from the same era that are just as good running around unperked.
And if this perk system is supposed to perk uber "rare" rides... then I again insist it's effed up. 957 SpitXIVs were built. The ENTIRE Dora series of the 190 (not just the D-9) totalled a little short of 700.
So basically, the only thing the perk system is good for right now is toejams 'n giggles.
It doesn't perk all of the uber late war planes. It doesn't perk 'em based on production numbers either, as I just pointed out.
So what does it perk? It's perked based on whining or potential whining as near as I can see.
The LostWaffles would have a coniption fit if the SpitXIV was unperked while their uber Dora-9 is running amok unperked.
Hristo, I'm not whining. The system makes no sense, and is very lopsided. One side can have an uber '44 ride roaming around for free... while another side can't. I just want HTC to take notice and perk planes based on uberness relative to the middle of the road rides.
ESPECIALLY when all of the '44 planes that should be perked (A8 excluded) have earlier variants available for free (exception being the N1K2).
Call it whining if you want, but I don't complain MY rides have a conspirator group against them trying to neuter them or that the company creating this game is biased.
-SW
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All of you Spit drivers, why u dont switch to fly the mighty, unbeatable and unperked Dora??
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Cause they can't fly it for S*it Mando and they can't get kills in it becaus you gotto stay fast and shoot good rather then just uber zoom and spray and pray with hispanos.
I agree whoever on the perk system that it is all WAAAAY TO HELL, while teh Spit 14 and TA152 are perked the LA7 go free as a bird and is more or less unbeatable at the alts the fights are fought in the MA, if it fights at 20k and looses you just head to the deck and win easyily or run easily. Spit 14 can't run at the deck, it can climb like a freakinh rocket but that doesn't save you from uber E LA7.
The TA152 can't do a single thing against many planes bellow 20k, it can't run, turn, climb or zoom. so why da hell are these two birds perked at all while the Uber LA7 (amongst other) are totally free? Don't give me any crap about productions number here and there because that is just plane BS when it comes to the MA.
Ps. The TA152 is no faster and turn no better then a P51B at 30k+, only difference is guns, so why isn't the P51B perked???
Unperk all planes but the ones that drasticly unbalance the arena (C hog) and the 262.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
All of you Spit drivers, why u dont switch to fly the mighty, unbeatable and unperked Dora??
Best not be directed at me, cuz you got another thing comin'.
-SW
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The La7 is crappy why are you all so worried about them?
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Only reason LA7 is crapy is because they are mostly being flown my very new pilots, go up against a OK flown LA7 an nothing non perked can really catch it. What it can't turn with it can outrun.
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I did fly the D-9 for quite a while.
The thing is a god plane, up there with the P-51D. I found it quite easy to be successful in. I wonder where you get the idea that it is hard to use?
On the other hand, I don't fly Spits much anymore. Don't like the idiots whining at me, and I really only have interest in the MkXIV (but being gangbanged keeps me out of it). So, on the rare times I'm online, I fly Mossies or whatever strikes my fancy (190A-5 last time).
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Only reason LA7 is crapy is because they are mostly being flown my very new pilots, go up against a OK flown LA7 an nothing non perked can really catch it. What it can't turn with it can outrun.
I'm glad you guys didn't tell me this before. I'd never have run up a 30/5 ratio against them, because out of fear I'd have avoided them.
Yet, flying the La-7, I'm 85/15. So, the ratios are just about the same, meaning that it's as much tactics as anything else. Once you know how to fly the La-7, you will also know how to fight them and kill them.
BTW, the SpitXIV is vastly better than the Lavochkin everywhere but in low-level speed.
I see absolutely no reason to perk the La-7. Likewise, I see no reason to perk the Dora or Mustangs either (10/3 against Dora, 5/1 flying it - 50/7 against P-51, 33/8 flying it). Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each type is what makes for success. Actual ACM skills are secondary to knowledge. For example, I've killed the La-7 flying the following:
P-51B
Fw 190D
Bf 109F-4
La-7
N1K2
Hurricane
F4U
F6F
Seafire
SpitXIV
Ki-61
This is a solid mix of Angles and Energy types.
Quit squeaking about the "uberness" of the La-7, and learn how to deal with them. They're not half the Boogiemen you guys build them up to be.
Now, before you say that I defend the La-7 because I fly it, consider this. A few other scores:
Ki-61: 37/7
Hurri IIC: 71/13
SpitIX: 23/5
Yak-9U: 21/5
F4U-1C: 53/13
Typhoon: 14/3
It really doesn't make much difference what you fly, if you fly it smart.
My regards,
Widewing
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Naudet, roll in one direction, then reverse in the other. It ain't the same as the SpitIX in the stability aspect.
To be honest, the difference must be so small i just didnt noticed it.
And i did roll left-right and back multiple times to notice this instability, but i did not see any significiant difference.
And btw i think this instability seems realistic, just look at the powerincrease and torque of the 5-blade prob. That would explain the difference.
And as many Spit Pilots stated the IX was the best spitfire of all. The earlier ones lagged power and the later once lagged handling.
I did fly the D-9 for quite a while.
The thing is a god plane, up there with the P-51D. I found it quite easy to be successful in. I wonder where you get the idea that it is hard to use?
Compared to the XIV or even IX it is hard to get good results. And with the current MA setup that totaly overrates the turning aspect of A2A combat spitfires are given an incredible performance edge.
While in WW2 RAF pilots said "Turning wins no airbattles" in the MA the opposite is more true "In the end turning wins AH battles".
And that's why the XIV needs to be perked and the D9 or P51 not.
The XIV would simply dominate the MA with its numbers, while even now that the D9 and P51 have a speed edge in the MA over most non-perks they don't have any significiant effect nor are they overused.
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Originally posted by Naudet
While in WW2 RAF pilots said "Turning wins no airbattles" in the MA the opposite is more true "In the end turning wins AH battles".
And that's why the XIV needs to be perked and the D9 or P51 not.
The XIV would simply dominate the MA with its numbers, while even now that the D9 and P51 have a speed edge in the MA over most non-perks they don't have any significiant effect nor are they overused.
That may be true for you. That may be true for anyone who commits to turning. But the fact of the matter is, turning only works when evading someone or when someone is dumb enough to commit to a pure turn fight.
Yes, in that case turning wins fights. But if flown properly, a D9 will NEVER be touched by a SpitIX.
The D9 and P51D are more survivable and easier to get kills in than the SpitIX. In the SpitIX when you commit to turning, there isn't much you can do after that.
Turning only delays the inevitable.
Don't have any significant effect or are overused? Uhm, did you not read my post pointing out that the D9 is used more than both the A5 and A8? Did you miss the part where the P51D is close to 10% of total kills?
The only other planes that come that close are other uber late war monsters.
Nevertheless, I'll make a film since none of you apparently see what I'm talking about.
THe difference between the SpitIX and XIV is not what I'm talking about. I know the XIV is laterally unstable compared to the IX. That's NOT my point.
My point is, if ones gonna be perked, perk all the uber late war monsters.
-SW
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Dora and P51 ARE easier to survive in YES. BUT there is no WAY a Dora is easier to get kills in, B&Z being the only way to actually get kills (and be some what safe) it's very easy to avoid. P51 is a bit easier thanks to 50 cals but spit 9 still FAR easier to get kills in. Who says you can't use E tactics in Spit?
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Wilbus,
You can use the SpitIX as an E-fighter all you want- but both the Pee51 and the Dweeb9 ( :) ) can get away from the SpitIX. Dive away- now I know what some are going to say. "But the SpitIX dives just as fast"- yes, but at speeds it don't roll well at all. Change directions a lot in the dive. If he wants to follow you, he's gotta slow down.
Now, as far as the SpitIX being "easier" to get kills in- this can be argued since I found it just as easy getting kills in the D9 as I did in the SpitIX (when I flew it)... It took a little bit more of setting up in 1vs1s... but it's still not any harder. Then on top of that, take a D9 into a furball and stay fast.
I always have a ball taking an A8 into a furball and extending out of it with sometimes up to 8 or 9 kills. That I simply could not do in a SpitIX.
So it all depends on how you fly it that will say whether or not it's easier or harder.
-SW
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Turning may win air battles in AH only because there is no fear of death.
IMO, of course.
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Turnfights were common in ww2, and although many pilots (espercially those flying worse turning aircraft) rather avoided them, they would not always manage to.
Even today, turning ability is taken into account both in tactics and aircraft design.
So turning IS a bit important. The more so if the airplane performs well in other categories. And at low alt and low speed, or when being bounced badly, it certainly is.
That's what makes the Spit XIV perk material, while the Dora, P51, La-7, 109G10 and Typhoon are not. The Spit XIV stays with them in almost any category, climbs with the best, and out-turns the lot of them.
However, from my experience, not by far, so if its FM is to stay like this, its at least not worth the perks it costs.
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Spit 14s are free in CT now. This is your chance to see for yourself at low cost.
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Yes, the Spit IX and N1K2 are easier to get kills in than the Fw190D-9, but not by nearly the margin you guys like to make out. The Spit and N1K2 are not auto kill machines, and in fact rely greatly on their enemies being stupid.
The Fw190D-9 is easy to get kills in, just not the easiest. The Fw190D-9 is very much easier to survive in than are the Spit IX, XIV or N1K2. Now, if the Spit XIV didn't have a perk icon it'd be easier in all ways than the Fw190D-9.
If you want to impress us with how good you are don't fly any 190. Fly the C.202 or Spit Ia to the K/D ratios you attain in the Fw190s. 190s are all on the easy end of the scale, but not at the farthest end of the scale.
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As i flew almost always the D9, i say it's one of the best survivers but not an easy killing machine.
About the D9 escaping a IX in a dive. The Spit will lose no elevator authority, nor will it lose as much roll as a D9 at speed.
Also the IX will never compress (i tried to get it there in a 25K near vertical dive) while the D9 will do.
And sure i cannot achieve my D9 ratio in a Spit IX or NIKI, why? Cause i use the only advantage the AH D9 really has to escaped unhealthy situations and i follow strict rules.
Also to much others fly the same plane. In an arena full of D9s i would never be able to hold my last K/D.
And last but not least, my K/D in anything other than the D9 is of no interest to me, those other birds are just planes, while the D9 is .... is the D9.
Turning in WW2:
Read E. Hartmanns Biograhy ("Holt Hartmann vom Himmel") there you can read that turnfighting was prefered by "musclepilots". They would win the fight cause they were physical superior to their victim, as turnfighting needed enormous muscle power.
The planes turning circle actually didnt matter much, it was the pilots strength.
Not so tough guys had to used different tactics.
Btw this was why the FW190 was so well liked among german pilots, its extrem easy handling. Cause easier handling means less physical fatique.
Does anyone really think WW2 pilots pulled Gs like our turnfighter jockeys? Go out try it, fly a spitfire through constant 3-5G turns for 5 minutes, i guess you will be happy to have your PC joystick back.
Anyway after reading lot of combat record i believe WW2 A2A was very different to AH.
Just imagine to combat distances. Most kills were scored under 200 yards, many within 100 yards.
In those cases the speed difference could not vary greatly or else the two planes would have collieded.
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Not in any way trying to impress anyone, just countering the 190 is easier to get kills in thing.
Spit IS easier, quite much easier, specially with all furrballs going on everywhere these days.
Dora is easier to sruvive in, alot easier butif you want K/T you better not chose a Dora.
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It amazes me that the hot sticks here in Aces High feel they should be the meter to judge what is a tough-to-kill aircraft and what isn't. As I read Widewing's comments I decided to check his scores and he's 650 to 170! Other people in here have similarly extraordinary scores and I can't imagine anything is tough for you guys to kill. I'm not asking that the LA7 be perked, but it's kind of ridiculous for the top 5% to feel they represent the majority. Shame on you people for even flying the LA7 and N1Ks anyway! ;) It's like me telling you the 100-yard crawl is easy to get under 1-minute from the blocks or paradiddles are one of the easiest rudiments in drumming. Criminy!
BTW, unperk the F4U-4 and I'll not ever whine about an LA7 again!
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Okay, but kill/time and "easy" are two entirely different things here Wilbus.
It's easy to get kills in Fws, just as easy as it is in Spits. However, you won't get them as quickly as you would in a Spit unless you fly through a furball.
How hard is it to setup a kill in a Fw? It's a different style of attack, but it's not harder.
Naudet, I never said anything about elevators. They do lose elevator authority when they get fast, not much tho... but they lose aileron authority a lot sooner.
So this is all ya gotsa do, go into a dive, roll right, pull up a little, roll left, dive down a little (I'm talking about still diving this entire time)... as long as you are moving in different directions in your dive (not just rolling around in circles- that's just asking to get killed) then he's gonna have to burn off speed to follow you.
-SW
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The diffrent setup required makes it tougher, in 190's (if you wanna stan a chance of staying alive at all) you gotto stay fast, thus take delfection/snapshots in high speed. This can be done in the spit BUT you can turn aswell.
Well, like you say Swulfe, two different ways, not harder just different :)
Btw, Pee51 was kind of fun :D
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Originally posted by Steven
It amazes me that the hot sticks here in Aces High feel they should be the meter to judge what is a tough-to-kill aircraft and what isn't. As I read Widewing's comments I decided to check his scores and he's 650 to 170! Other people in here have similarly extraordinary scores and I can't imagine anything is tough for you guys to kill. I'm not asking that the LA7 be perked, but it's kind of ridiculous for the top 5% to feel they represent the majority. Shame on you people for even flying the LA7 and N1Ks anyway! ;) It's like me telling you the 100-yard crawl is easy to get under 1-minute from the blocks or paradiddles are one of the easiest rudiments in drumming. Criminy!
BTW, unperk the F4U-4 and I'll not ever whine about an LA7 again!
Well, I don't feel that my score is extraordinary. Fair to good, maybe. But, far from the upper levels. Go back and look at my score in tour 24 and you'll see that I was struggling like any newbie. On my first day I went 0/11. The difference isn't related to skill as much as the learning curve. I improved as I learned. I learned from the "hot sticks", who routinely handed me my bellybutton in a bucket. I learned by flying everything in the inventory. I learned by watching the "hot sticks" fly. I learned by thinking about what I was flying and how to exploit it.
Really, it's a learning curve. The more you fly, the faster you learn. Getting clobbered by the "hot sticks" is part of that learning curve. I'm still learning, every day, every sortie.
My regards,
Widewing
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This thread is so sad...... :)
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So this is all ya gotsa do, go into a dive, roll right, pull up a little, roll left, dive down a little (I'm talking about still diving this entire time)... as long as you are moving in different directions in your dive (not just rolling around in circles- that's just asking to get killed) then he's gonna have to burn off speed to follow you.
AKSWulfe, thats the problem in a highspeed dive (450mph+), the spit will be able to follow you through all those moves with ease.
The difference in Rollrate is not so great at those speeds that the spit cant follow, and what is more important, the FW190s elevator will be much heavier than the spits elevator.
Not to mention that the 190 will bleed E like a pig in those short moves while the spit can do them and mantain an higher E level.
And finally when the D9 starts to compress and you need to use trimtabs to maneuver, the spit will still be alright and have it's full control authority.
And about FW190 kills, yes the setup is the complete opposite. As FW jockey you will need to learn snapshots and high deflection shots, while the spit jockey will most often has a tracking shot.
And i still think it's harder to hit in a snapshot than in a tracking shot.