Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on May 24, 2002, 12:29:29 PM
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"Red Army soldiers don't believe in 'individual liaisons' with German women," wrote the playwright Zakhar Agranenko in his diary when serving as an officer of marine infantry in East Prussia. "Nine, ten, twelve men at a time - they rape them on a collective basis."
The Soviet armies advancing into East Prussia in January 1945, in huge, long columns, were an extraordinary mixture of modern and medieval: tank troops in padded black helmets, Cossack cavalrymen on shaggy mounts with loot strapped to the saddle, lend-lease Studebakers and Dodges towing light field guns, and then a second echelon in horse-drawn carts. The variety of character among the soldiers was almost as great as that of their military equipment. There were freebooters who drank and raped quite shamelessly, and there were idealistic, austere communists and members of the intelligentsia appalled by such behaviour.
Beria and Stalin, back in Moscow, knew perfectly well what was going on from a number of detailed reports. One stated that "many Germans declare that all German women in East Prussia who stayed behind were raped by Red Army soldiers". Numerous examples of gang rape were given - "girls under 18 and old women included".
Marshal Rokossovsky issued order No 006 in an attempt to direct "the feelings of hatred at fighting the enemy on the battlefield." It appears to have had little effect. There were also a few arbitrary attempts to exert authority. The commander of one rifle division is said to have "personally shot a lieutenant who was lining up a group of his men before a German woman spreadeagled on the ground". But either officers were involved themselves, or the lack of discipline made it too dangerous to restore order over drunken soldiers armed with submachine guns.
Calls to avenge the Motherland, violated by the Wehrmacht's invasion, had given the idea that almost any cruelty would be allowed. Even many young women soldiers and medical staff in the Red Army did not appear to disapprove. "Our soldiers' behaviour towards Germans, particularly German women, is absolutely correct!" said a 21-year-old from Agranenko's reconnaissance detachment. A number seemed to find it amusing. Several German women recorded how Soviet servicewomen watched and laughed when they were raped. But some women were deeply shaken by what they witnessed in Germany. Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists."
Drink of every variety, including dangerous chemicals seized from laboratories and workshops, was a major factor in the violence. It seems as if Soviet soldiers needed alcoholic courage to attack a woman. But then, all too often, they drank too much and, unable to complete the act, used the bottle instead with appalling effect. A number of victims were mutilated obscenely.
The subject of the Red Army's mass rapes in Germany has been so repressed in Russia that even today veterans refuse to acknowledge what really happened. The handful prepared to speak openly, however, are totally unrepentant. "They all lifted their skirts for us and lay on the bed," said the leader of one tank company. He even went on to boast that "two million of our children were born" in Germany.
The capacity of Soviet officers to convince themselves that most of the victims were either happy with their fate, or at least accepted that it was their turn to suffer after what the Wehrmacht had done in Russia, is striking. "Our fellows were so sex-starved," a Soviet major told a British journalist at the time, "that they often raped old women of sixty, seventy or even eighty - much to these grandmothers' surprise, if not downright delight."
When gang-raped women in Königsberg begged their attackers afterwards to put them out of their misery, the Red Army men appear to have felt insulted. "Russian soldiers do not shoot women," they replied. "Only German soldiers do that." The Red Army had managed to convince itself that because it had assumed the moral mission to liberate Europe from fascism it could behave entirely as it liked, both personally and politically.
Domination and humiliation permeated most soldiers' treatment of women in East Prussia. The victims not only bore the brunt of revenge for Wehrmacht crimes, they also represented an atavistic target as old as war itself.
The novelist Vasily Grossman, a war correspondent attached to the invading Red Army, soon discovered that rape victims were not just Germans. Polish women also suffered. So did young Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian women who had been sent back to Germany by the Wehrmacht for slave labour. "Liberated Soviet girls quite often complain that our soldiers rape them," he noted. "One girl said to me in tears: 'He was an old man, older than my father'."
The rape of Soviet women and girls seriously undermines Russian attempts to justify Red Army behaviour on the grounds of revenge for German brutality in the Soviet Union. On March 29 1945 the central committee of the Komsomol informed Stalin's associate Malenkov of a report from the 1st Ukrainian Front. "On the night of 24 February," General Tsygankov recorded in the first of many examples, "a group of 35 provisional lieutenants on a course and their battalion commander entered the women's dormitory in the village of Grutenberg and raped them."
In Berlin, many women were simply not prepared for the shock of Russian revenge, however much horror propaganda they had heard from Goebbels. Many reassured themselves that, although the danger must be great out in the countryside, mass rapes could hardly take place in the city in front of everybody.
In Dahlem, Soviet officers visited Sister Kunigunde, the mother superior of Haus Dahlem, a maternity clinic and orphanage. The officers and their men behaved impeccably. In fact, the officers even warned Sister Kunigunde about the second-line troops following on behind. Their prediction proved entirely accurate. Nuns, young girls, old women, pregnant women and mothers who had just given birth were all raped without pity.
Yet within a couple of days, a pattern emerged of soldiers flashing torches in the faces of women huddled in the bunkers to choose their victims. This process of selection, as opposed to the indiscriminate violence shown earlier, indicates a definite change. By this stage Soviet soldiers started to treat German women more as sexual spoils of war than as substitutes for the Wehrmacht on which to vent their rage.
Many women found themselves forced to "concede" to one soldier in the hope that he would protect them from others. Magda Wieland, a 24-year-old actress, was dragged from a cupboard in her apartment just off the Kurfürstendamm. A very young soldier from central Asia hauled her out. He was so excited at the prospect of a beautiful young blonde that he ejaculated prematurely. By sign language, she offered herself to him as a girlfriend if he would protect her from other Russian soldiers, but he went off to boast to his comrades and another soldier raped her. Ellen Goetz, a Jewish friend of Magda's, was also raped. When other Germans tried to explain to the Russians that she was Jewish and had been persecuted, they received the retort: "Frau ist Frau."
Women soon learned to disappear during the "hunting hours" of the evening. Young daughters were hidden in storage lofts for days on end. Mothers emerged into the street to fetch water only in the early morning when Soviet soldiers were sleeping off the alcohol from the night before. Sometimes the greatest danger came from one mother giving away the hiding place of other girls in a desperate bid to save her own daughter. Older Berliners still remember the screams every night. It was impossible not to hear them because all the windows had been blown in.
Estimates of rape victims from the city's two main hospitals ranged from 95,000 to 130,000. One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in the city, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to have been much higher among the 1.4 million estimated victims in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least two million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape.
If anyone attempted to defend a woman against a Soviet attacker it was either a father trying to defend a daughter or a young son trying to protect his mother. "The 13-year old Dieter Sahl," neighbours wrote in a letter shortly after the event, "threw himself with flailing fists at a Russian who was raping his mother in front of him. He did not succeed in anything except getting himself shot."
After the second stage of women offering themselves to one soldier to save themselves from others, came the post-battle need to survive starvation. Susan Brownmiller noted "the murky line that divides wartime rape from wartime prostitution". Soon after the surrender in Berlin, Ursula von Kardorff found all sorts of women prostituting themselves for food or the alternative currency of cigarettes. Helke Sander, a German film-maker who researched the subject in great detail, wrote of "the grey area of direct force, blackmail, calculation and real affection".
The fourth stage was a strange form of cohabitation in which Red Army officers settled in with German "occupation wives". The Soviet authorities were appalled and enraged when a number of Red Army officers, intent on staying with their German lovers, deserted when it was time to return to the Motherland.
If anything, the events of 1945 reveal how thin the veneer of civilisation can be when there is little fear of retribution.
© Antony Beevor.
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Yes, and the Nazi soldiers were perfect gentlemen during their invasion of the USSR.
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Like always Hortlund, what's your point.
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Good read, Hortlund. Thanks for posting.
Wingnut, the point Hortlund makes for me is that war is hell and encompasses all the evil Hell has to offer, including rape, murder, and every other autrocity. Rape has been a part of war since the first cave men attacked their neighbors and, no doubt, rape continues today in every Nation currently involved in armed conflict.
Maybe the point is we should all work for peace. Maybe the point is we should all listen to what people who have been through an occupation are saying to us. Maybe we should decide to make war obsolete before war makes us obsolete. Maybe posting something like this will give people cause to reflect and ask themselves why we, as a species, insist upon killing, maiming, raping and conquering those who are different from us.
Like I said, good read, Hort, thanks for posting.
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100% agree
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Originally posted by funkedup
Yes, and the Nazi soldiers were perfect gentlemen during their invasion of the USSR.
two wrongs make a right, eh funked?
Point? A simple one from the above article could be "One man's hero is another man's villain." Although I think Elfenwolf is right on the money.
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What a pile of roadkill...
Everyone found guilty in rape or maraudering was executed in front of his unit. All vets I know said they didn't have any desire for any experiments after the first of their comrades got shot for rape.
They all say they were disappointed and angry (if you can describe this feeling in such a way), because they all saw what nazis did to their home land, and their own command made any attempt of revenge impossible...
The worst crime of the Soviet command was to allow every soldier to send 16kg of "trophy" home.
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The Russians never did anything wrong nor did the Germans. The only people that did anything wrong were the Americans and English.:rolleyes:
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Looks like perfect roadkill for me. Z. Agranenko (Yerukhimovich) died in 1960. Who was the clever guy to find this quote!? It is the ONLY signed quote in that crap.
Since the seven-years war German propaganda pictures Russians as "asian hordes of barbarians". It is even older then Goebbels "asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks".
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Originally posted by Boroda
Since the seven-years war German propaganda pictures Russians as "asian hordes of barbarians". It is even older then Goebbels "asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks".
Ironically, that may have a grain of truth. If some notable scientists are correct, there is a good chance that ashkenazi jews are descendants of turk nation of khasars and admixture mideastern jews rather then direct descendants of jews scaterred from ancient Israel.
As for mass rapes committed by soviet army, what is so surprising about it? I thought it was a common knowlege.
The government did everything possible to destroy any vestiges of morality in the population, the officers could not care less, etc.
Russian soldiers lived in pretty brutal conditions even before the war and the war did nothing to improve the national character. Banditism and rape were spread not only in occupied territories but drastically increased in the Soviet Union itself during and after the war.
I do not see any point to pick on russians though. Other people would and did behave the same way in the same conditions.
miko
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Boroda you should get Beevor's book and check the bibliography. IIRC many of his facts on this subject come from Soviet archives. Soviet command was aware of the widespread rapes, although I'm sure some of them found it just as distasteful as we do.
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Ironically, that may have a grain of truth. If some notable scientists are correct, there is a good chance that ashkenazi jews are descendants of turk nation of khasars and admixture mideastern jews rather then direct descendants of jews scaterred from ancient Israel.
There seems to be some real evidence to support what miko said.
German Jews and those Jews from eastern Europe are not blood decendents of the ancient hebrews .
They can be ethnically traced back to the Khazars, a warlike Gentile nation from Southern Russia who converted to the Jewish religion in the eigth or 9th century.
However it is this Branch of the Jewish Nation that are the die hard Zionists and that formed the terrorists gangs and did most of the dirty work wresting Palestine from the Arabs.
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Originally posted by Boroda
The worst crime of the Soviet command was to allow every soldier to send 16kg of "trophy" home.
Nonsense Boroda...despite all efforts to cover up mass rapes which were condoned by the high command, much of the information (evidence) was retained and is now open for public inspection. I have only read about it - you are the closest to it...go have a look.
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Reads just like Nanking.
Dont anyone kid themselves that this was a Russian or a German or a Japanese problem. That is lying right underneath the skin in a scary amount of the population of every country.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Beevor's book and check the bibliography. IIRC many of his facts on this subject come from Soviet archives. Soviet command was aware of the widespread rapes, although I'm sure some of them found it just as distasteful as we do.
Beevor the usual liar. It has taken from archives only those documents which speak for the benefit of its theory and has not resulted the documents, which showed struggle of the Soviet government with these phenomena. It simply makes money and it the historical truth is uninteresting.
Besides if in 1945 prostitution there was one of mass ways to earn of products for itself and families, now many from those who was engaged in it for a survival, now prefer to tell about it, as about mass violence.
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To Miko and others:
After reading many Western sources that opened to us since "destroyka" (Many Western sources were published in USSR since 50s, and not only pro-Soviet ones, but tell me any Soviet history books published in, say, US of NA), I finaly got f#$king tired of brainwashing. 90% of "historians" are barely literate. All they do is follow the "party line", drawn in late-40s, and absolutely parallel to Goebbels's stream of roadkill. They only switched the "Jewish question" 180 degrees opposite: Goebbels said all bolsheviks are Jews or Jewish servants, while post-war Western propaganda exploits so-called "antisemitism" of Stalin's regime. Everything else is 99.99% the same.
After understanding this I finaly made a decision to protect my weak mind. If I see two opposite opinions on any historical event - I choose the Soviet one, wasting the works of dr. Goebbels's inheritors right into the toilet and flushing water.
The article posted by Hortlund is an obvious roadkill. No documents, no witnesses, nothing. Only a figment of an ill imagination, stimulated by money from the most democratic of all democracies. All my experience with GPW vets is against this hallucination. Everyone says they were frustrated and angry, but too afraid to risk their lives when the war was almost over.
Curval, please show me a direction where to look. All I see is "the grand-aunt of my my wife's cousin-in-law was raped by a crowd of yellow-faced, narrow-eyed Russians with their machine-guns, horses, tanks and longbows".
Yes, nazis were bringing culture and civilisation to endless steppes of Belorussia and moist Kazakh forests, to save poor Europe from that cruel Estonian cavalrymen on shaggy mounts and blonde Kalmyk fishermen with their carved harpoons. They almost saved Europeans from eating borsch every day (c) Grunherz.
Countess Grishka was drinking vodka from a samovar under a shady cranberry tree.
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am edit your post and dont attribute quotes to people who didnt make them.
Thanks in advance.
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Wotan, your vision is very strange.
Khazarian Kaganat was a strange state ruled by ethnic Jews. Most of the population was pagan. When Svyatoslav ruined Itil' he slaughtered all the ruling "class", probably with the help of "servants".
There was a nation called "Karaims" in Krimea - the sons of Jewish fathers and pagan mothers in Khazaria, who were not "real" Jews and had to seek for luck in other places.
BTW, the Astrakhan' Kremlin is made of bricks from the Itil' fortress, after they were used in the fortress of the capitol of Golden Horde - Saray.
Read Lev Gumilev's "Ancient Russia and the Great Steppe", he covers this story very well.
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Boroda , do you see that black car with tinted windows outside your home ??? Better watch what you say :)
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its not my "vision" i just quoted something i read that supported mikos point.
I certainly dont believe that all slavs are "jews" or "controlled by jews". But from what I have read alot of the Russian Gangsters or "Mobs" are controlled by jews.
A lot of what the west portrayed as "Soviet anti-semitism" point to the Czech purge of 1953, the year of Stalin's death. They state that 9 out of 11 men executed were jews. But they fall to point out that a good number of Bolshevists overall were jews. In Czecholslovakia there was a purge of officials who wanted to be their own bosses (like tito in yuogaslavia). You couldn't really purge "Bolshevists" without purging Jews. They were to much a part of Bolshevic order. In Stalins great purges (1935-38) nearly all the victims were jews. But this was not "anti-semetism".
In Czecholslovakia a good number of the top government officials were jews. Including the minister of justice who order the execution of the 11 executed.
Of all the purges and claimed acts of "anti-semtism" most were untrue. Because in most instances in eastern europe one jew was replaced with another.
So when one were to say "Jewish bolsheviks" that isnt to far a stretch. Also given a quick look for evidence of soviet anti-semitism you can easily find it as well. However if one were to look deeper you would find this far from the case.
Now to the topic at hand there has been so much written about soviet rape gangs that denying it would be like denying the holocaust. In this sense its not worth debating.
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Now to the topic at hand there has been so much written about soviet rape gangs that denying it would be like denying the holocaust. In this sense its not worth debating.
It is amusing to look at that as wash out brains in the "democratic" countries. Funny as the people trust that that is written, only because it is printed on a paper or is made in TV. Any critical approach any proofs any " fault should be proved "
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Boroda,
This is in general, not just of this topic.
I truly hope you're not like this in real life and just playing around with our minds.
Otherwise, you'd be one of the worst kind fanatics.
If things we're so nice and nothing happend, then why is it that many countries under red curtain, have desperately wanted away from soviet authority?
Not to talk of their experiences with them..
People doesn't want get rid of things without a reason.
Look at the shape these countries are today and what they were.
Listen to the stories they have.
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Many think, that better to be first in a village, than second in a megalopolis. For the sake of it they are ready to blow up a megalopolis
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my opinions arent based on tv they are based on what I have read and from the mouths of those that experienced it.
Again please edit your post to reflect who you are quoting.
In the west theres no state news agency. Theres enough diversty even in the main stream news groups and authors that for everyone to be conspiring against the image of the old ussr is crazy.
I know there are misconception and some untruths but not on the level you would claim.
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This is also known as 'The Rape of Berlin'. There were over 100,000 cases of reported rape cases. Probably twice as many unreported.
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If figure equal means it a deceit. And who counted these 100 000? Itself Beevor? Has interrogated all of 100 000 victims? Or he in archives has found of 100 000 applications for violence? Or the Soviet soldiers reported the commanders on each case of violence?
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Those 100,000 reports of rape were from women going to Berlin hospitals for treatment.
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Between capture of Berlin and his division the military hospitals function only. It means in the Soviet military hospitals the women addressed?
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i think this one falls into "repeated so often it must be true" categoty.
Kinda like
300,000+ dead in Dresden, where most records can't seem to reach this high of a figyure.
There were few others....
Oh yeah.. Mk103 on 109K4 :D
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100000 reported raped whomen means 100000 soldiers executed in front of their units.
Again - I want sources.
What Hortlund posted is an outright roadkill. Standard Western myth of "asian barbarians". Nice idea to picture Soviets as a horde or violant rapers - a threat to civilisation.
I truly hope you're not like this in real life and just playing around with our minds.
Otherwise, you'd be one of the worst kind fanatics.
Saw my signature? I am a regiment political officer. And also a community officer of an online flightsim project, free for all. Anti-american only because it's free.
I explained myself. Please read what I posted above. Keep following the party line drawn by dr. Goebbels.
You can call me an imbecilic communist bastard. You are welcome.
I am no fanatic. I simply respect our Grandfathers who really did save the world.
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Originally posted by paintmaw
Boroda , do you see that black car with tinted windows outside your home ??? Better watch what you say :)
Yes, I see that car. They parked too far, on the Leningrad highway, 100 meters away from my home, but they annoy me. They are from the FBI, and they know that I know it. I will better call 02 so our Militia will arrest them.
;) :p
Who was that provocator who mentioned the Weezer band on this forum?! I am listening to them all the time now....
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You have to realise the sources Boroda has been reading probably say what he is saying.
Soviet time history was infamous for being polished and biased.
Even today if you visit the St.Petersburg museum of the largest infantry unit that fought on finnish borders, you won't be able to find even one remark of the 20 000 men they lost in the battles (which constituted about 80% of its manpower at the time.)
Boroda: Western sources claim a totally opposite truth to the one you're offering us. Maybe it's propaganda, maybe its truth. It's extremely difficult to know 100% sure. All I know is that the soviet-russian official history has been altered heavily and if youre basing your comments on that information, I'd take it with a grain of salt.
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Boroda,
Denial and blind belief creates fanatism.
Just tell us also how soviet POW camps were good place compared to POW camps of other nations and we'll get a good laugh.
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The Khazars were turkic tribe not jewish. But they accepted judaism after weighting the political
importance of all three religions (pretty much the same way my people did). In those times religion was a way for influence, etc. like today is foreign investments. The Christianitty was tool of Byzantium - a large threat on their south borders, Islam was accepted by the powerful Bulgaria at Volga on their northern borders. So they chose judaism.
Later when Khazar Khanate was destroyed they dispersed all over Eastern Europe. The so called ashkenzi jews. BTW considerable part of the Khazar population was the conquered Bulgarian people - the part which remained on place under the oldest son of Khan Kubrat - Bat Baian - when they split in five in 670s. So part of the jewish people today are actually of bulgarian blood. :)
*******
I agree with the text on soviet army, although it might be exagerated in generalizations (numbers) and in some details and certainly is biased to hurt russians. Could be written in more objective tone. I`ve read confirming stuff in a russian magazine. And after all it makes sense with the conditions.
Excuse Boroda - it would be hard for me to accept such thing about my people as well.
As far as am - i`ve read his posts in russian forum - you try better argue with Stalin.
It is another topic how much is covered down in the West about western soldiers, as it was for soviet soldiers in the East. :P
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
All I know is that the soviet-russian official history has been altered heavily and if youre basing your comments on that information
Interestingly, and whence you know what the history is strongly changed? It to you on TV have told?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Just tell us also how soviet POW camps were good place compared to POW camps of other nations and we'll get a good laugh.
The Canadian historian James Bacque has issued at once two books devoted to crimes of the American army against German captured and the peace citizens in 1945-ì - 1950-ì years: " Other Losses " (1989) and " Crimes and Mercies " (1997).
On the data of the author, Filtrational of camp " for German captured in the American zone
The occupations were hardly probable no more terrible, than Îñâåíöèì: " Sometimes for famine both thirst the German soldiers and the officers were compelled is a grass and to drink I wet "
( While German soldiers from the British and Canadian zones were quickly regaining their strength and were helping rebuild Europe, Germans taken by the Americans were dying by the hundreds of thousands - emaciated figures in diarrhea smeared clothing, huddling pitifully in watery holes with perhaps a scrap of cardboard over their heads and a rotten potato for supper. At times many of them were reduced to drinking urine and eating grass).
Everything, in opinion of the historian, in the American camps was lost more 100.000 German captured
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Boroda, you wanted sources?
Fine, I'll post some sources, then perhaps you can post your sources too? And I would appreciate it if you included some other sources than yourself and some alleged conversations with old soviet ww2 veterans.
The last battle, Cornelius Ryan, New York, Simon and Schuster,1966
ISBN: 0684803291
In his book, Ryan personally interviewed 5 eyewitnesses and/or victims, they are:
Ursula Köster, mother of 3, victim
Ilse Antz, victim
Josef Michalke and Alfons Matzker, Jesuits in Charlottenburg's St. Canisius Church, witnesses
Father Michalke tells of one of his parishioners, Hannelore von Cmuda, a 17-year-old girl, was repeatedly raped by a mob of drunken Red Army men; when they were finished they shot the girl three times.
Margarete Promeist, victim "wave after wave of Russians came into my shelter plundering and raping. Women were killed if they refused. Some were shot and killed anyway. In one room alone I found the bodies of six or seven women, all lying in the position in which they were raped, their heads battered in."
[Note, these 5 testimonies are evidence enough to get a conviction in any trial. As a sidenote, there are several accounts of German warcriminals being convicted on evidence far less than this.]
The Fall of Berlin 1945, Antony Beevor, Viking Press 2002
ISBN: 0670030414
My original post in this thread is a review of this book, let me just highlight a part of it for you:
"One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in Berlin, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to be much higher among the 1.4 million who had suffered in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least 2 million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape."
"Can't he understand it if a soldier has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?" Stalin's retort to a protest from Yugoslav Community Milovan Dijilas about Soviet troops raping Romanian, Croatian and Hungarian women.
[Note that Ryan only writes about rapes in Berlin, while Beevor include all the eastern parts of Germany]
Anthony Read and David Fisher, Berlin Rising: The Biography of a City (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1994
You might find this quote interesting:
For nearly two weeks after the fall of the city, the Soviet authorities turned a blind eye to the sexual assaults, and to the looting and robbery that went on unchecked. Clearly they believed their men deserved 'a little fun', as Stalin described it, after their years of fighting. Then, suddenly, the party was over: from 15 May, discipline was restored, and any Red Army man who stepped out of line was liable to be shot.
Perhaps those veterans you refer too are talking about that order? And perhaps they have chosen to forgot what took place before May 15th 1945?
And if you know German:
Die grosse Flucht. Es begann an der Weichsel. Das Ende an der Elbe. Jurgen Thorwald Neuer Kaiser V., Klf. 1991.
ISBN: 370434057X
One of the legacies of the Soviet occupation of Germany has been that, at least until very recently, East German women of the wartime generation referred to the Red Army war memorial in Berlin as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist."
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Originally posted by Boroda
What a pile of roadkill...
They all say they were disappointed and angry (if you can describe this feeling in such a way), because they all saw what nazis did to their home land, and their own command made any attempt of revenge impossible...
LOL!!
Although it was nice of you to warn us that you were about to post some serious roadkill, I find the highlighted part of your quote so outrageously stupid that I have to question your mental health. There are two alternatives here, either you are sincere and in desperate need of a history teacher, OR you are trolling with about as much taste as if someone would troll about the holocaust.
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You advertise this roadkill with such pathos as if the American or English soldiers were not engaged in violence. Or you hate only Russian and read the books in which a lot of to dirt about Russian. I hope that you not the racist and consequently I recommend to read the book "CONQUEROR'S ROAD" (Osmar White, 1966). In it some mentions about rapes perfect by the American soldiers in Germany in 1945-m. Were especially distinguished the negro. One American officer has noticed to the author (he was the military correspondent), that of the soldier it is impossible to deprive of this right in won to the country. The punishments were, by the way to tell, rather soft (deprivation of the monthly money contents).
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del
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Originally posted by --am--
You advertise this roadkill with such pathos as if the American or English soldiers were not engaged in violence. Or you hate only Russian and read the books in which a lot of to dirt about Russian. I hope that you not the racist and consequently I recommend to read the book "CONQUEROR'S ROAD" (Osmar White, 1966). In it some mentions about rapes perfect by the American soldiers in Germany in 1945-m. Were especially distinguished the negro. One American officer has noticed to the author (he was the military correspondent), that of the soldier it is impossible to deprive of this right in won to the country. The punishments were, by the way to tell, rather soft (deprivation of the monthly money contents).
???
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I am sure a big numbers of rapes has been committed by Soviet and German soldiers, even other warcrimes....
BUT,
I want to ask you, Steve (asking you only because you started this nice flamewar ;) ):
Do you believe the other soldiers NEVER committed such acts?
Do you believe this is a peculiar trait of the Soviet soldiers?
Do you are in some way relative of McCarthy?
:D ;)
:P
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Whatever happend, the Germans leadership could have prevented most of it by accepting an orderly surrender instead of making it necessary to conquer nearly all of Germany by force.
Or maybe by not starting the whole thing in the first place.
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Originally posted by Naso
I am sure a big numbers of rapes has been committed by Soviet and German soldiers, even other warcrimes....
BUT,
I want to ask you, Steve (asking you only because you started this nice flamewar ;) ):
Do you believe the other soldiers NEVER committed such acts?
Do you believe this is a peculiar trait of the Soviet soldiers?
Do you are in some way relative of McCarthy?
:D ;)
:P
I know that soldiers from all sides committed the exact same crime against civilians on all sides. They were punished when/if caught however. The scale, brutality and acceptance of the Soviet rapes are unparrallelled though. The only thing remotely close are the Japanese troops behaviour in China.
Two million rape victims in the eastern parts of Germany, Naso. The number is staggering, two million...
I am not related to McCarthy in any way that I know of.
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AM I live 250km from St.Petersburg so I have had the chance to verify all this with my own eyes. This is also confirmed by several russian / estonian people I know.
Are you trying to tell us now that the communist dictatorship posted out truths to its people? Like all those western patents that were 'invented' again in USSR? LOL.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Two million rape victims in the eastern parts of Germany, Naso. The number is staggering, two million...
And why not hundred millions? As any proofs of the absurd figures you have not given, hence you have invented them, I begin to think that you usual racist, for which it is not required of the proofs, as he simply trusts in what he wants to trust.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Are you trying to tell us now that the communist dictatorship posted out truths to its people? Like all those western patents that were 'invented' again in USSR? LOL.
What for to invent anew? We simply bought them from those western people, which are always ready to sell everything, including the country and its secrets for ridiculous thousand dollars :)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
... The only thing remotely close are the Japanese troops behaviour in China.
And the German troops behaviour in URSS (Hint! hint! ;) ).
This acceptance of troop's behaviour you suggest from the high soviet command, can be read as a cold-minded revenge operation by the commanding power in URSS, for the fury of the war that both nations conducted in the eastern front.
Nothing good.
Anyway, what's the point?
The REAL point, I mean.
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am no I'm talking about the soviet heroes who invented again several inventions that were previously invented by western scientists. They were used in internal propaganda during the 50's and 60's and up. Those days USSR didn't have dollars to buy any technology from west nor it could because of the high-tech embargo placed on USSR.
A couple prime examples of industrial theft are the old chassis lada's which are exact copies of the 50 model fiat (were still produced unchanged up to 80's btw..) And the Moskvitch engine which is an exact copy of a 70's BMW 2-liter block. USSR didn't pay a dime to the designers for using them as far as I know. I have never heard of any technology licensing to pre-90's russia maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally posted by --am--
And why not hundred millions? As any proofs of the absurd figures you have not given, hence you have invented them, I begin to think that you usual racist, for which it is not required of the proofs, as he simply trusts in what he wants to trust.
Well, I think I posted a source up there. Let me post that quote again:
"One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in Berlin, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide. The death rate was thought to be much higher among the 1.4 million who had suffered in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. Altogether at least 2 million German women are thought to have been raped, and a substantial minority, if not a majority, appear to have suffered multiple rape."
The Fall of Berlin 1945, Antony Beevor, Viking Press 2002
ISBN: 0670030414
Now, when you say that you don't believe that number, let me ask you what your source is?
Now if you want to claim that Beevor is a racist, or that he just made that number up, that is all up to you. But then you would have to go check his sources and try to argue against those. Good luck buddy.
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Originally posted by Naso
And the German troops behaviour in URSS (Hint! hint! ;) ).
Not really.
German troops in Russia usually shot their victims.
You can look all you want, but you wont find any accounts of unpunished gangrapes or even rapes. Perhaps it had to do with the "untermench"-mentality.
It was so absurd, that a German soldier could kill a whole barn full of people and recieve no punishment at all, but if he raped one woman he was stripped of rank and sent to military prison. This was true even in the SS units whose only job was to butcher civilians, any soldier found guilty of rape was sent to military prison (or later, transferred to the really diddlyed up units like 36th SS "Dirlewanger").
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
propaganda during the 50's and 60's and up.
You confuse scientific opening and patent for the invention. It is normal, that one the problem is worked by(with) tens people in the different countries of the world. And it does not mean, that open repeatedly. It is nonsense. The scientific world is very close also speech can go only about concrete realization of ideas which are known for hundreds and thousand.
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
A couple prime examples of industrial theft are the old chassis lada's which are exact copies of the 50 model fiat (were still produced unchanged up to 80's btw..) And the Moskvitch engine which is an exact copy of a 70's BMW 2-liter block.
As to copying that your words allow to make a conclusion, that you never worked on technological manufacture. To copy anything it is impossible. At each country the feature of an industry and final production is let out on that that is in the country, instead of that that is taken at the next countries.
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--am--
USSR was a completely closed country during the communist years. Those inventions are found in russian books as made by soviet hero1 soviet hero2 etc no mention of having somekind of an international work group on them. I have seen it myself. We had quite a many laughs reading the list of the claims of the soviet scientists. It's like Al Gore inventing the internet - hilarious.
What goes for copying, USSR time government didnt care for international treaties or agreements so they copied whatever technology they could espionage from the west.
Don't try to convince me that USSR actually respected any international treaties or agreements. The high-tech embargo meant that all western technology found there was illegally obtained. Just as today you can find audio records and software sold openly on russian marketplaces - all pirated. You can buy 20 audio cd's for $20 - all latest records. I have bought a few myself so I can verify that also first hand. Software like W2k or OfficeXP are a bit more expensive at about $4 / cd.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
"One doctor deduced that out of approximately 100,000 women raped in Berlin, some 10,000 died as a result, mostly from suicide
What means has deduced? Íe what of mathematics? Or he the doctor? He what personally has interrogated 100 000 women? He personally has opened 10 00 corpses? How the surname is the doctors? What documents he used for ñîåãî of an absurd conclusion?
1. Beever not racist
2. Beever not the historian
3. Beever makes money printing slander.
4. To quote the doctor Beever as is disgusting how to quote the doctor Gebbels
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I have to take back what I said about illegal copying of the fiat model since there seems to be a reference about it being manufactured in russia at the official fiat website.
Still it doesn't change the fact that the truth as it was portrayed in the soviet regime wasn't matching the western idea of the truth. I would not trust any official reports made during the communist time.
In a dictatorship the only truth that comes out is the truth the dictator wants to come out.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Not really.
German troops in Russia usually shot their victims.
You can look all you want, but you wont find any accounts of unpunished gangrapes or even rapes. Perhaps it had to do with the "untermench"-mentality.
It was so absurd, that a German soldier could kill a whole barn full of people and recieve no punishment at all, but if he raped one woman he was stripped of rank and sent to military prison. This was true even in the SS units whose only job was to butcher civilians, any soldier found guilty of rape was sent to military prison (or later, transferred to the really diddlyed up units like 36th SS "Dirlewanger").
That make them better ?
mass murderer vs mass raper ... great ... aren't they both evil ?
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Who said anyting about better?
Two sides of the same rotten coin.
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Yes both sides were evil.
During war there is also always propaganda..
Soviet politruks were feeding their troops horror stories about finnish troops which lead to many of the soldiers choosing suicide instead of imprisonement. They thought they'd get tortured horribly if they got into the hands of the finns.
In reality they were treated humanely most of the times (naturally some warcrimes did happen there) and some of the best behaving prisoners were located to finnish farms where they could do civillian work in relative freedom. Offenders were put to prison camps where an estimated 20 000 prisoners died of hunger and illnesses. The conditions were however better than russian gulags had and the prisoners were released quickly compared to the 30 years the finnish prisoners spent in russia. Not to mention less than 20% of them made it out alive.
Some pro-communist people who went to russia even before the war were lost forever. It was a one way ticket.. They welcomed people in but the border out was closed tight.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Not really.
German troops in Russia usually shot their victims.
You can look all you want, but you wont find any accounts of unpunished gangrapes or even rapes. Perhaps it had to do with the "untermench"-mentality.
It was so absurd, that a German soldier could kill a whole barn full of people and recieve no punishment at all, but if he raped one woman he was stripped of rank and sent to military prison. This was true even in the SS units whose only job was to butcher civilians, any soldier found guilty of rape was sent to military prison (or later, transferred to the really diddlyed up units like 36th SS "Dirlewanger").
You are missing the point, what do you think will be a "better" revenge, to simply kill people randomly, or rape the women and THEN kill someone too?
One of the most used techniques by occupying and humiliate a country, in the past times, was (and I suspect it is still, Yugoslavia docet) to kill animals and devastate fields, make the victed people feel "untermensch" by using random violence, closing roads, cutting supply, violating property, hitting religious centers, negating education AND raping women to humiliate them and the men survived by exerting a sexual supremacy.
Every army since the old times have been involved in such episodes, sometime knowing perfectly what they were doing, and it's still happening today.
No country in the world can claim to be innocent of such atrocityes, even if officially prohibited by the war law.
P.S.
Some of the above cited tactics of occupation are used by the Israeli army in Occupied Territory, but this is a little OT
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Who said anyting about better?
Two sides of the same rotten coin.
I'm perhaps biased due to our old fight but it's how I read your post.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Not really.
It was so absurd, that a German soldier could kill a whole barn full of people and recieve no punishment at all, but if he raped
The decree Hitler as Supreme Commander -in-chief vermaht from 13.5.1941ã. about military legal proceedings on war with the Soviet Union.
May 13 1941ã.
::
"For actions against the enemy civil persons accomplished by the military men vermaht , there will be no obligatory prosecution, even if it is a military crime or offence"
Also to you as to the admirer of nazis I recommend to visit photo-exhibition about war crimes of Germans
http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/docs/home.htm# (http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/docs/home.htm#)
(http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/foto/themen/partisan1g.jpg)
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Originally posted by --am--
What means has deduced? Íe what of mathematics? Or he the doctor? He what personally has interrogated 100 000 women? He personally has opened 10 00 corpses? How the surname is the doctors? What documents he used for ñîåãî of an absurd conclusion?
1. Beever not racist
2. Beever not the historian
3. Beever makes money printing slander.
4. To quote the doctor Beever as is disgusting how to quote the doctor Gebbels
I dunno pal, but your post doesnt make much sense. Perhaps its the language barrier that shows its ugly face again, but to me, it looks like you are the racist in this conversation. Remember this quote of yours: In it some mentions about rapes perfect by the American soldiers in Germany in 1945-m. Were especially distinguished the negro. <--What are your sources for that anyway?
When you are questioning Beevor, perhaps you should read his book first? Then you can look at his sources, and then[/i] you can start questioning his findings.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
--am--
I have seen it myself. We had quite a many laughs reading the list of the claims of the soviet scientists. It's like Al Gore inventing the internet - hilarious.
The given words speak that you have no the relation to scientific community.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
In a dictatorship the only truth that comes out is the truth the dictator wants to come out.
Then you should understand, that you live in dictatorship now.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
During war there is also always propaganda..
Soviet politruks were feeding their troops horror stories about finnish troops which lead to many of the soldiers choosing suicide instead of imprisonement. They thought they'd get tortured horribly if they got into the hands of the finns.
The atrocities finish the soldier till now with horror are recollected by the old men in the Leningrad area.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
When you are questioning Beevor, perhaps you should read his book first? Then you can look at his sources, and then[/i] you can start questioning his findings.
I read a little books Beevor. Could not read up up to the end. A huge piece toejam. Any proofs. Any facts. The separate cases are submitted as system approved by the Soviet government. This man not the historian. He ordinary businessman
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Atrocities like what --am--? I have seen some propaganda that was fed to the troops, but practically none of it had any basis in reality. It wouldn't even make sense unless they happened during the continuation war because the finns were recapturing their own land - who would want to rape and murder their own civillians? lol.
And --am-- you keep repeating that I have no relation to this and no relation to that.. Yet you don't seem to understand yourself the difference between a democracy and a communist dictatorship behind the iron curtain. Come on.
I'll dig up some sources of the scientific claims soviet scientits have made. It'll make a fun new thread.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Atrocities like what --am--? I have seen some propaganda that .
Me do not trust, and will believe?
" A Political history of Finland. 1805-1995 ãã. " Ussila, Hettilya and Hevakivi
( I apologize for possible mistakes in names)
" The Part of Russian population of East Kareliya about 20 thousand of 80 thousand) was sent in concentration camp, in which from time to time feed was especially bad. "
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Hah there were no 'concentration camps' in finland. They were ordinary prison camps where prisoners were concentrated but not terminated like the nazis did. The whole country was lacking of food so the prisoners did suffer from that and like I said many of them died to hunger or related diseases.
There were no death camps. As I said the russian camps had far worse conditions and forced labour.
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Very well that you recognize the fact of presence concentration of camps (prison they can not be as there sit are condemned) Soviet citizens nobody condemned, and simply have driven in camp and there they died out for famine as well as in nazi camps
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I'm not aware of any other soviet citizens sent to prison camps except the soldiers who were taken as prisoners of war. To my knowledge there weren't any civillians based on ethnic reasons.
I can't see any reason why they should be put to camps since finnish army was recapturing the land soviets took from them in the winter war. Therefore any occupants should be mostly the areas original population although hundreds of thousands left their homes when the soviet invasion moved forward.
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Here is an interesting study for you to read if you get it to your hands from somewhere. (Just to remind you that as a russian you have little stand on complaining about camps..)
http://acta.uta.fi/english/teos.phtml?5101
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Seems the russians are having trouble believing how naughty their for fathers where...
Its almost like anyone that remembers was killed or sent to prison till they forgot.
Any soldier that raped was shot infront of his unit..lol
Been 60 years..time to rewrite history so that it feels better.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Who said anyting about better?
Two sides of the same rotten coin.
I wonder how long will it take to rewrite history and finaly prove that nazis were good, and fought evil communists to save Western civilisation.
Will you tell me that I must be ashamed looking at my Grandfather's medals?
Hortlund, you are an idiot. I repeat: I D I O T.
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who said anything about the Nazi's being "good"?
This is the exact same as the current Israel-Palestine conflict. People trying to say one side is better than the other. Both sides are committing atrocious acts. If someone can't see that, I'm sorry.
Same with this whole thread. The Nazi's were evil. No arguing that. IF (this is for am and boroda) the tales of mass Soviet rapes are true, then the Soviets were no better, and no worse, than the Nazi's. Anyone committing acts of that nature should have been punished, whether it was a German, Russian, American... ANYONE.
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Nifty, this is simple: nazis were evil, communists were good. Anything else is revisionism.
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Communism is the greatest evil, ever!
Allow me to paraphrase what I deleted.
ANGER!
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I just hope Boroda meant in reference to WW2, Nazi Germany being a greater immediate threat than Communist Russia, so Russia was an ally and a convenient good guy.
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You are right, GH.
As for comparing communism and nazism - read Albert Camus's "Rebel". There are two brilliant chapters about it.
Communism, unlike nazism, is a POSITIVE ideology and a set of POSITIVE values.
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Boroda, I believe you still owe me some sources...
Put up or shut up...
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I could not help looking at this:
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
A couple prime examples of industrial theft are the old chassis lada's which are exact copies of the 50 model fiat (were still produced unchanged up to 80's btw..) And the Moskvitch engine which is an exact copy of a 70's BMW 2-liter block.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a few of these cars, and they were truly a copy. Even the Fiat 2000 engine from the early 1980's fitted right into a Lada 1600!! They really were a whoopingly good copy, but bad in material quality. Now who said that they could not be copied?
Anyway, back to the Rape and pillage....
From the mountain of ww2 books I have read, I must say that on the front of the conflict between the Russians and the Germans were pretty much the same. Really no difference, and sadly, if anything, I would put my money on that the russians were worse, i.e. regarding common civilians (not groups like jews)
I dug up somewhere that there was actually an armed conflict between the English and the Russians. The English had captured a town in which there was a hospital with many german nurses. The russians entered at night, demanding women. The English eventually opened fire to drive them away, killing some of them.
The town had asked to be occupied by the English rather than the Russians, in fact the German unit defending the area had surrendered to the English, but in order to make that possible, they had to keep fighting the russians until the English got there.
We also know how eager the German fighter pilots were to surrender to the Anglo-American forces rather than the russians.
Does that tell something?
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Look, this neonazi asks ME about MY sources, providing nothing more then the standard cold-war fairy-tales about commies eating little children alive! Next step will be quoting "sources" like Tolliver & Constable with Lavrinenkov strangling the poor LW pilot with bare hands!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Look, this neonazi asks ME about MY sources, providing nothing more then the standard cold-war fairy-tales about commies eating little children alive! Next step will be quoting "sources" like Tolliver & Constable with Lavrinenkov strangling the poor LW pilot with bare hands!
I'll interpret that as a "no, I dont have any sources"
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Originally posted by --am--
You advertise this roadkill with such pathos as if the American or English soldiers were not engaged in violence.
oh by the way, since you were already referring to me about POW camps.. im not american and not having any thoughts of americans being saints :)
Just a notice from my own part.
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Boroda is actually right about Communism being a positive ideology. The idea is excellent - nobody just can make it work in real life.
The ideology of equality turned into even heavyer class dividing between the party and working people, not to mention that the communist idea of democratic decision turned into dictatorship in russia, cuba and china. Power corrupts and when someone is in the position to abuse it, he will most likely to do so in his advantage.
Another bad point of communism is that it channels industrial and technical innovative energy to political activity because it's the only way to climb the social ladder. This kills normal financial and technical competition and channels the energy to politics, corruption and creative abusiveness of the system. The first thing that clearly comes out when you look at any communist society is blatant and rampaging corruption. You could buy a police officer to murder someone for $1000.
Creative people get no financial reckognition of their work no matter how hard they work, they're financially no better than the average joe who skips work at the factory.. So they try to escape to the west and get shot at the border in the process.
Communism is one of those things which look great on paper but suck totally when put in action.
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--am--,
In early years, finnish POW camps were poorly maintained, however after red cross requirs and Mannerheim's visit at the POW camps, things were drastically changed.
In early years this was mainly because of "ex"-criminals maintaining the camps and there are speculations or records of that how POW could been kicked out of the camp and shot as escaper.
but death toll among finnish POWs in soviet hands was far greater.
In a document I saw how one of finnish POWs described how he was captured and couple of his surrendered fellow soldiers were brought behind the corner and shot and how he was afraid it would happen to him as well.
He also told about the soviet pow camps along with few other who were POWs during the war.
Theres story of when Finnish soldiers retreated from a city in Kareliya, they boiled water and put captured soviet in it, to be found by the soviet troops when they enter the city.
This is told to be done by soldiers living in the area for hatred towards the aggressors unrightfully taking their land.
But I haven't heard any stories of civils being sent to prisons to die in famine.
I've heard of desants only.
What comes to soviets and german troops, there are not only stories but proves of captured germans being tortured at the frontlines.
--am-- and boroda..
I don't see anyone claiming that everything is true, but you two aren't even admiting that any of it is true and meanwhile being faulty of very same things you accuse others of.
boroda being the only one who refers to laughable accuses of child eaters etc.
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I'm pretty sure that Lada paid for a license from FIAT to manufacture FIAT designs legally.
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Yes it seems so funkedup I was wrong on that one.
The moskvitch engine might be a similar case.
Still that doesn't change the fact of the false claims.
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Lada was built in Togliatti in a company partly owned by FIAT.
Old Moskvitch was same car as pre-war Opel built with machinery which was "socialized" from Germany.
Later Moskvitchs had an engine which was copied from BMW; same way as russian heavy truck (Zil?) had engine copied from White or Studebaker.
Also Zis limousine was pretty much same car as Packard was.
In motorcycles K-750, Ural and Dnepr were more or less copies from german Zündapp and BMW motorcycles and made with german machinery.
Moskvitch from '90s was a copy from Talbot 1510 and new model of volga had doors which were taken from Ford Scorpio.
I'm pretty sure there would be more but can't remember them right now. Anyway Russians have always been good copiers thought quality wasn't in the same level with western products. Some people are importing old Dnepr, K-750 and Ural motorcycles and they are changing engines to the german made BMW-boxers. Dad had a "Popeda" when he was young and he told me it had very good heater but they did change carburetors to model used in Chevrolets. Fuel consumption did drop several liters per 100km and car was faster and better to drive.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I'm not aware of any other soviet citizens sent to prison camps
Percent died Soviet captured in finish concentration of camps, is more than in nazis concentration of camps. Nazis for it judged in Nuremberg, and the crimes finish of the militarians have remained without punishment. Now you do not want it to remember. And as were at war for nazi and as killed the Soviet people.
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I can't see any reason why they should be put to camps since finnish army was recapturing the land soviets took from them in
Finish the government has sent in concentration of camps all who thought differently, all women and children, whose husbands served in Red Army. This camp was in area Kalayarvy near to city Peryasenyaoky (I apologize for possible mistakes).
That that you do not want in it to trust means that it was in a reality
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There is such joke. American general complains, that these Russian so quickly steal all their secrets, that planes which America only still draws, in Russia already fly.
I too can make a complaint that West has copied at Russia. For example processor PentiumII is made on the basis of the Russian project "Elbrus". Intel simply has offered many money to one of the developers "Elbrus" and he has left to work in USA.
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--am-- show us some proof of those concentration camps..
Because I have never EVER seen even one western or soviet source telling a word about them. Not a single reference..
You must have been listening some old propaganda. We have freedom of religion, speech and thought in finland ever since our country became independent - we don't send people who think differently to concentration camps or gulags like Russia used to do.
Like I said those camps had prisoners of war in them, soldiers desants and probably some civillians which had committed crimes.
When the war ended, part of the peace agreement forced finland to capture and imprison every soviet citizen that moved to finland after finland captured soviet soil in the continuation war. Those people also fought against russians in the finnish army. Russian government demanded them to be captured and be sent back to russia where they faced a certain death. This our government did.
The karelian ethnic prisoners were put to train cars, but they stoped the soldiers from locking the doors saying you can shoot us all here but you won't lock the doors.. Finnish soldiers who had been fighting a common enemy with many of those men disobeyed their orders and left the doors unlocked.
A majority of the prisoners escaped from the train soon after it took off without a shot being fired after them.
After this incident there were very few passengers left in the train and new guards were ordered to the train.
Probably your Soviet time historians distorted the truth (like they liked to do so much) by explaining that the people that never returned had been executed in finland LOL.
The fact is that very few prisoners ever wanted to go back to russia because they faced court martial and accuses of treason - which as legacy of Stalin meant a certain death in either Gulags or in the backyard - shot back in the head.
Stalin executed 6 million russians.. This doesn't even count in the people who were shot trying to escape.
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You inattentively read. I have quoted FINISH of the historians. I have given you the reference to their book. If you nothing know about camps in the country it does not mean, that them were not.
Also it is not necessary to me to tell fairy tales about a history of Russia. As was found out you a history of your country do not know.
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--am-- I'm waiting for the references.. Please try to get the authors names right so I can search them properly.
If the finnish camps were worse than germans I wonder why nobody raised hell about them.
If this thing really happened (which I extremely doubt) it has been the best kept secret.
Btw --am-- what happened to the finnish civillians that were captured by soviet troops? Or the ones that freewillingly moved to russia before the war to join the communist ideal world?
Much to their surprise they couldn't go back anymore and were sent to gulags when they expressed their wishes.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
--am-- I'm waiting for the references..
If this thing really happened (which I extremely doubt) it has been the best kept secret.
" A Political history of Finland. 1805-1995 ãã. " Ussila, Hettilya and Hevakivi
( I apologize for possible mistakes in names)
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Much to their surprise they couldn't go back anymore and were sent to gulags when they expressed their wishes.
You have concrete examples? Or how usually it is empty words repeating propagation of times of cold war?
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--am-- yes I have read several stories of people who went over the border and had to fight their way back after they saw the system in work.
Please try to spell the authors right, I couldn't find anything remotely matching from those names..
Are you now saying that none of this happened, Stalin didn't kill 6 million russians, your borders were open for travel and people had freedom?
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To receive a political asylum officially all these people spoke that that from them wanted to hear western officials. It at all does not mean, that they spoke the truth.
Stalin did not kill 6 millions. There are archival data how many man was executed on political verdicts. This figure is smaller, than your fairy tales. Also it is the documentary confirmed figures, instead of propagation.
As to "freedom", you confuse the term "freedom" to the term "freedom of movement ". I understand, that for western people freedom it to arrive to any country of the world and to see there snackbar Macdonnalds. These to western people do not come ideas, that for other people in the world "freedom" it absolutely another. For this reason they with surprise looked at burning towers WTC.
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Osmo Jussila, Seppo Hentila, Jukka Nevakivi. Suomen polittinen historia 1809-1995. - Porvoo-Helsinki-Juva: Werner Soderstrom Osakeyhito, 1995.
The textbook for the students of the Helsinki university.
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Yes --am-- I found the book in question, for some reason my reply didn't post here though.
I have to go and borrow it from the library to verify your claims. I very much doubt the word concentration or death camp is used anywhere in the text though - simply because there were none.
If there were, there would have been trials for crimes against humanity for sure. None was even prosecuted for such thing however (to my knowledge.)
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You count, what the essence concentration of camp varies if it to name on another?
And what unless judged the Englishmen which by first in the beginning XX of century used of concentration camp in time wars in Southern Africa against the local inhabitants?
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The essence is that a concentration camp is understood as a death camp. None of the finnish prison camps were built for the means of termination.
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You again confuse the terms. " Concentration camp " and " the camp of death " is different things. " The Camp of death " with gas chambers is intended for mass destruction. And " Concentration camp " this place the contents of the civil people without court, but only under the order of government or militarians. In " Concentration camps " the people died for famine (as in German or Finnish) and it was politics of the state.
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--am--,
War crimes?
How about soviet invasion to finland in 1939?
Without that, there wouldn't be a single war crime commited by finns, which is far far less than war crimes by soviet.
Sounds like you only have one book..
How about digging up some book of soviet war crimes for a change.. this time a book not made by the heros of soviet union.
Soviets had their concentration camps, or do you think they just said "oh hello you possible spy, have a nice day!"
Death toll was much more in those.
concentration camps werent for killing people to famine... you sure do have bizarre way to look into it.
heck, if soviet union would be such a dream state, why did they suck so much?
Communism might be good ideology, but it doesn't work.
Similar things to that what happend in China, where hundreds of students were killed, has happend in soviet union.
If thats not a crime, then what is it...?
National matter eh?
Can't believe that such closed mind people still exists, who even aren't so old.
Sure theres western propaganda, but well, you can't say I would be totally blinded by it, like you seem to be of your coutry's propaganda.
I do at least know and admit there was war crimes done on finnish side, just like on any other.. you still haven't done that of soviet union, which are far worse.
Anyway, im happy of my life as 'westerner', and when comparing to 'eastern', im extremely happy.
and meanwhile, I'll keep criticising americans and russians in turns.
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In my country we had a civil war 10 years ago. You know how it started ? Just like this thread, actually.
"Your grandafther killed my grandfather."
"Your people were slaughtering my people 50 years ago."
"Your nation is genocidal."
"You are a nation of thiefs and rapists".
Just some of the loudest cries. In no time, we had war in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. Only because of people who live in past.
Was it worth it ? To go into war over things forgotten ages ago ?Things who sick people dug out of here-say stories based in little fact ? And what if they are even true ? Fighting over them brought no dead to life - but it surely killed new ones. You should have watched the TV in Croatia or Serbia back then. It was a horror show with decapitated bodies mixed with the best of Goebbels' doctrine. Who needed that ?
Some even outdid their ancestors in crimes. All sides did it. All did it 50 years ago. All did it 10 years ago. It is not in red star, not in swastika, not even in halfmoon - it is in people who do it. And those you can find everywhere.
It saddens me that I find this thread very similar to the disputes raging in my country before the war. Some people never learn or are blind...I just don't know.
So, if you have any decency left, kill this thread.
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Originally posted by Fishu
--am--,
War crimes?
How about soviet invasion to finland in 1939?
Without that, there wouldn't be a single war crime commited by finns, which is far far less than war crimes by soviet.
Finland offered an exchange of territories. And USSR gave back twice more, than asked you. In Europe there was a war, and the city Leningrad was at the border. It was the question of national safety. But the Finnish government wanted war. It her also has received. The Finnish government counted, that ñïðîâàöèðîâàâ war it will involve England in war against USSR. When it has understood that it will not be already there was a war.
Originally posted by Fishu
Soviets had their concentration camps, or do you think they just said "oh hello you possible spy, have a nice day!"
Death toll was much more in those.
concentration camps werent for killing people to famine... you sure do have bizarre way to look into it.
USSR was the normal state. If you want to engage in the insult USSR, I can remind you, Finns, that your state exists on a card only due to Russia. That at first you were a province of the Swedish empire where you did not have any rights. Then when you already were in structure of the Russian empire to you the wide autonomy and constitution was given. Then in 1917 Communists you have given independence. In 1945 you did not judge in Nuremberg.
The crimes on war are made in all armies. But main in this question - whether the government of the country with these crimes struggles. The German government did not struggle with crimes against civilians, and even to permit them. The Soviet government struggled with crimes. It is the historical fact.
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Originally posted by --am--
I can remind you, Finns, that your state exists on a card only due to Russia. That at first you were a province of the Swedish empire where you did not have any rights.
I suppose this sums up your knowledge in history pretty well...
First, Sweden has never been an empire, we have always been a kingdom.
Second, Finland was an integrated part of Sweden, not a province, not any occupied territory, just a part of Sweden the same way Svealand or Gotland is a part of Sweden right now.
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Officially Sweden was not empire. But on an image of action aspired to her to become. Its wars specify capture of territories on it.
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The well-meaning and peaceful USSR chose to graciously attack our country (it was all in our best interest naturally) and in the end finland actually had more land than it originally did (the message he is trying to give us here..)
Original state borders:
(http://users.kymp.net/cable130/1920 kartta.gif)
Borders after first soviet attack and end of winter war:
(http://users.kymp.net/cable130/1940 kartta.gif)
Borders after continuation war and peace agreement:
(http://users.kymp.net/cable130/1944 kartta.gif)
If USSR's intention was only to protect St.Petersburg, it launched a pretty big attack. We all know that the orders were to march to Helsinki in 2 weeks in 1939..
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War crimes?
How about soviet invasion to finland in 1939?
Without that, there wouldn't be a single war crime commited by finns, which is far far less than war crimes by soviet.
How about that German attack on russia in 41? If it wasn't for that, there wouldn't be a single german woman raped !!!
Let's stop this stupid threat now.
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USSR has offered to the Finnish government to remove border on the Karelian isthmus on north up to a line Lilipola-Koivisto. In exchange for this territory a component 2761 km2. government USSR has offered to Finland 5529 km2 in Kareliya in areas Rebol and Porososer
I can still remind, that Finland has broken the contract about Aland of islands from 1921. Finland has constructed there military bases and strengthenings having broken thus contract, which she has signed.
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--am-- they were not offers but demands. That is why your country started the war, not ours.
Have you ever heard of a country that freewillingly gave away its land after the neighbour demanded it? Not to mention the land was valuable timberland and the area offered in exchange was mostly worthless swamp.
You can't change the history --am-- even if you would like to.
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Originally posted by fd ski
Let's stop this stupid threat now.
Excuse me, but since I was the one starting this thread allow me to ask you why you feel this thread is stupid?
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You badly know a history of Finland. The negotiation on an exchange of territories (and behind capture) is normal international practice. The negotiation on it went in the summer of 1938. Unfortunately Finnish politics did not want the world, and the wars wanted. USSR offered except for an exchange of territories also the mutually advantageous trade agreement, delivery of arms for the Finnish army, to close eyes on infringement of the contract about Aland islands.
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Oh thats why your (now ex) president Boris Jeltsin stated that Stalin's attack on finland was a crime - publicly.
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Originally posted by --am--
I can still remind, that Finland has broken the contract about Aland of islands from 1921. Finland has constructed there military bases and strengthenings having broken thus contract, which she has signed.
Now how the diddly did that get into this discussion? Not only are you incredibly wrong, I fail to see what relevance this has got to do with anything.
Full story:
In 1856 Russia entered into a treaty obligation not to fortify the Aland Islands in the Baltic; these islands lie near Stockholm, but Sweden was not part of the treaty. In 1918 the Islands became part of Finland which started fortifying them. Sweden, feeling (for some unknown reason) threatened by these fortifications, complained to the Council of the League of Nations. The end result was that the LoN found that Finland had succeeded to Russias obligations and that Sweden could claim the benefit of the 1856 treaty.
Learn some history pal.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Oh thats why your (now ex) president Boris Jeltsin stated that Stalin's attack on finland was a crime - publicly.
It is politics. They will tell any nonsense if it will bring by him political benefit
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Full story:
In 1856 Russia entered into a treaty obligation not to fortify the Aland Islands in the Baltic; these islands lie near Stockholm, but Learn some history pal.
You deny that fact, what England, Germany, Finland and other European countries have signed October 21 1921 Conventions about de-military and neutralization Aland of islands?
Aland of an island under the peace contract of 1809 send to Russia
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Originally posted by --am--
You deny that fact, what England, Germany, Finland and other European countries have signed October 21 1921 Conventions about de-military and neutralization Aland of islands?
Aland of an island under the peace contract of 1809 send to Russia
*sigh*
Notice the date of that de-militarization agreement? Now if Finland began fortifying the Islands in 1918-1919 and then stopped...would that be before or after the agreement?
And yes, Russia got Aland from Sweden in 1809, then Finland got Aland from Russia in 1918. Is there a point in here somewhere?
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http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFILES/FIN_1956_Act.pdf
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Oh, so now your presidents word is nonsense when it doesn't happen to match with your opinnion?
I'd say that's the official stand of your government and you can think whatever you want in your pre-revolution stuck up state of mind.
If the communist society was so great, why on earth was there a revolution in the USSR which lead to its end??
I'm just about finished with this subject.
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The recent discussion with our Finnish friends (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50258)
AM, it's interesting, and I have given sources about concentration camps in Karelia there.
What stunned me was the fact that Finnish occupants divided Karelian population by nationalities. Russians were simply thrown behind the barbed wire to starve to death, while Saams and other Ugro-Finns were granted special stripes on their clothes to distinguish them as "relative nationality"... (i mean "nationality that is a relative to Finns")
I have read this in translation from Finnish. Staga and other respectable people didn't tell me if there is any information about it availible in Finland or - sigh - told in schools.
About 1939 - it's all full of crap from both sides, but what happened in June, 1941, completely proved that Soviet government wasn't mistaken talking about "indirect agression".
Hortlund, you value "democracy" and other Western principles, so, tell me: why the heck you ask ME to bring the proof that Russians didn't "rape everyone from 8 to 80"!? And answer me clear and boldly: did you stop drinking brandy every morning?
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Boroda I'd like to know which kind of agression our 4-million country who had declared neutral when Hitler attacked Poland and which had absolutely slacked with all defense funding for several years could impose on russia..
Finnish people have cursed over and over again the liberal politics run in 30's that completely lacked the development of the military. It cost thousands of finnish soldiers lives - we had no ammo for artillery, lighter guns nor automatic weapons to give to the troops.
Our airforce consisted of outdated equipment and only the huge efforts of our pilots saved the situation somewhat. We still had no means to stop all of the thousands of bombers that pounded the country.
Boroda: Which sources indicate this dividing by ethnic grounds in the prison camps? And are there references (by western studies) about finland placing slavic prisoners to death camps? It's only logical to separate the enemy away from the original population of the area - they need special attention, not only because your government was sending desant groups behind the borders to spy and commit war crimes like butchering undefended civillian villages.
You're talking like finnish government was treating russians like Germans were treating jews.. That is simply not possible and the utter lack of international attention, court trials etc. show this clearly. There was nothing of the kind happening. If finland would have committed war crimes like you claim, we would have had to face the consequences (being the losing side of the war.)
March, 1940, Soviet tanks on the ice of the Finnish Gulf, Mannerheim line broken and nothing to stop them on the way to Helsinki...
It was a heroic attempt - but Soviet victory was only a question of time Anyway - my hat off for Suomi people.
__________________
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
The troops were on the ice near Viipuri which is about 250km east of Helsinki. Viipuri was lost afterwards in the peace agreements and is now in a degradant state like the rest of the russian country. Viipuri and other karelia locations are the only places in the world where you can still see 1940's buildings and milieu in its original state.
I have visited Viipuri 4 years ago so I have seen it with my own eyes.
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--am--,
How often you've seen a country give land for someones 'national safety'?
If theres big military base and foreign owned land in your country, isn't that a threat to national safety when you're not fully trusting your 'guests'?
So, Finnish national safety counted less than soviet unions?
Boroda,
They do teach pretty well in schools, of bad and good sides of Finland. (unlike in some countries, where only good sides are told and bad sides not, or made to sound rightful at very least)
I have never heard of any unusual concentration camps that didn't exist in other countries of WWII.
Besides, whos fault it ultimately was that these would have to been made?
Finland can't be kept totally responsible of every glitche, when soviet union began the unrightful war for their "national safety".
Without soviet union attacking, this would have never happend and people would have lived in peace and alot of natives wouldn't have had to flee from kareliya.
From both of you, I have not heard one single bad thing of soviet union.
There can be only one meaning for that, which isn't the nice one.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hortlund, you value "democracy" and other Western principles, so, tell me: why the heck you ask ME to bring the proof that Russians didn't "rape everyone from 8 to 80"!? And answer me clear and boldly: did you stop drinking brandy every morning?
Again Boroda, I have posted my sources, or the proof if you will. Remember that post by me where I named four books, and posted some quotes from those books? Those are what we call "sources" or "proof". The authors of those books are highly respected historians who have spent years researching their books, Cornelius Ryan even spent years interviewing eyewitnesses, people who were there. Then there is you, Boroda. Without any proof without any sources whatsoever, you claim that everything that those four authors has written about Soviets raping German women is a lie. You also imply that they are somehow interested in discrediting the Soviet Union more (as if that was possible). Your only "proof" for your outrageous accusations is some conversation you claim to have had with some soviet ww2 veteran who said that any rapist was shot. I then posted a source showing that not until May 17th 1945 did any such order exist. Apparently frustrated by this, you then call me a neo nazi.
So on the one hand you have me, making a statement and then backing that statement up with several sources. On the other hand there is you, claiming that everything said by me, or everything written in those books is a lie. When I ask you for your sources, you call me a neo nazi.
The way it works is that the person making a statement has the burden of proof for that statement. I made the first statement, and I have proved that statement to be correct. You then have two options, either you make a statement of your own that you then can try to prove OR you can try to discredit my statement by attacking my sources or my evidence. In this thread you have done neither. Instead you went with option 3:
Act like an idiot, make wild accusations to shift focus from the uncomfortable truth, ignore any evidence and pretend it doesnt exist. Start long ramblings about completely irrelevant things (see am's cute sidetrack regarding Aland Islands) avoid any attempt to get back to the subject. <--Option 3 is also known as "the soviet way".
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The examples are necessary to you? For example Cuba is compelled to give ground to America for her military base. Afghanistan to give ground to America for her national safety. China long bore England in Hongkong.
If the Finnish politics such idiots, that did not understand, that if to give up USSR in its request, it is war, the war means it is their fault. It is necessary to be able to search the compromise, instead of war. Therefore " the Winter war " is fault of Finns (or their politics).
You nothing heard about concentration camps for the Japanese living in America in time WWII? You very little to know about a real history and it is a lot of to know about a virtual history created propagation.
Yes, I know many bad things about USSR, it is even more bad things about Russia. But you it to not know. You to tell fairy tales, instead of about real bad
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--am-- so you are telling now that finland was making terrorist attacks on russian soil (afghanistan)
OR.. Finland was invinting nuclear weapons on its ground to pose a threat to the neighbour country (Cuba)
OR was finland a SMALL and POORLY ARMED NEUTRAL and FRIENDLY country?
Our government was stupid enough to think that the agreements between our countries were enough to stop you from attacking us and completely neglected the funding of the army. What a historical mistake that was.
Your comparisons are completely without base in reality and ridiculous. Nothing justifies your attack on finland and your current leadership admits it also. The attack was part of the Ribbentrop agreement which was made between the allied russia and nazi germany.
Oh, you forgot now that russia had a non-agression pact with germany and secret plans to divide europe to russia / germany untill hitler chose to break it with a surprise attack?
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I was lazy to read all posts. :)
Lada is officially licensed by Fiat or at least this is the common knowledge here - certainly it is not presented as original russian design.
What do you mean by "lower material quality"? My father has Lada 1500 (2108) for 22 years and it still looks and runs like if it is new. I do not know how many western cars can boast on this?
However there were many fabrications like the radio or the plane being originally invented by russians.
******
Zdravo Hristo! You the same guy who was on top Wally`s ladder 2-3 years ago!? :cool:
******
I do not see why people keep arguing on this thread? There is no way to convince am, his country is not the greatest, just, most kind, etc. You are simply loosing your time. Plz do not think all russians are like this, however. (But most still have to improve on objectivity ;))
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It's nice to see, Grobar, that not all russians are blinded by the stuff the communists fed you folks..
I know it is difficult to objectively look at your own country which you're proud of. Hats off to you for that.
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Originally posted by --am--
If the Finnish politics such idiots, that did not understand, that if to give up USSR in its request, it is war, the war means it is their fault. It is necessary to be able to search the compromise, instead of war. Therefore " the Winter war " is fault of Finns (or their politics).
You are seriously weird. By the same logic, Poland is to blame for ww2, since Germany only wanted the Danzig corridor but the Poles said no. Therefore the German attack was the fault of the Polish politician?
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If someone has interrogated 5-6 men and they to it have told about 5-6 cases of violence, and then this man on the basis of these 5-6 cases declares, that 100.000 acts of violence and 2-3 million victims of violence, this man not the historian, and liar were accomplished.
As against you, which to read the fantastic books so-called "historians", I read the original documents of the Soviet government and Soviet militarian HQ. I can them to you result, only you not read in Russian, therefore they to you are useless. Learn Russian, read the Russian books and then you will have the right to reason on that that made Russian. For now I see, that you deny the facts, only because they you to not like. You deny the fact, fulfilment of crimes by German armies (you already to visit photo-exhibition?) you deny the fact, that Russian did not make mass crimes in Germany, because it is not pleasant to you. You are to be trusted in wild Russian and civilized Germans.
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The Poles are really guilty in war. They to grasp a part of Czechoslovakia and they to support Germany in capture of Czechoslovakia
As to Danzig - Germany did not offer anything in an exchange, did not conduct negotiation trying to agree 2 years and simply has put forward the ultimatum.
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--am-- are you still so stupid or blind to see that official soviet documents were fabricated roadkill with no grounds on reality?
Because of the attitudes of the time people were extremely scared to give any bad reports of any operations.. The terror campaign and political purifications of Stalin ensured that nobody dared to send him bad reports about his own work. So they started writing fairytales. The official truth is polished to please the eye.
Not to mention the USSR style of fabricating history for propaganda purposes. It's very obvious like in that infantry regiment museum which has listed battles from hundreds of years where they were successful but then their last battle on finnish front where they almost all died in the 'motti' encirclement fight goes without a single remark.
This lead to the widely spread corruption that is rampant in the russian society even today.
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Mr.Ripley, first - Grobar is a Bulgarian ;)
Next - you have a very strange impression about Soviet life. You, as 99% of Westerners have absolutely no idea about it. All you have is a result of endless Hollywood movies picturing USSR as an "Evil Empire".
About Finnish concentration camps - i meant that Saams and other nations relative to Finns were never sent to camps. It stunned me - looks like Finns had the nazi-like national politics with racial segregation etc. I have read in books translated from Finnish, the links are in a thread I posted. I can't spell the author's namse in Latin, but I really want someone to explain me if it's true or not.
The fact that Finns were not under trial in Nuremburg is a result of smart "changing sides" in 1944 when they understood that they have chosen the wrong ally. There are quotes from Stalin showing his respect for Suomi people for their brave resistance in 1939, i mean REAL quotes, not the roadkill Hortlund tries to feed us.
Hortlund, now I will tell you that Sweden is a corrupt semi-socialist state, much more opressive then USSR was. If you'll ask me about my sources - I'll tell you that it's based on novels by Per Valo. Nice easy reading, "The Steel Jump", "The End of 31st Department", "Police, Police - Mashed Potatoes!" etc. What should you say about my sources? Keep repeating the Propaganda Ministry roadkill if it makes you feel better, but - beware, it can lead you to very dangerous limits. I suggest you to go to Latvia to interview their SS hangmen they call "vets" and "freedom fighters", it's a good idea to collect all nazi amazinhunks in one place.
I never say that Soviet soldiers were angels, but the picture you draw is a complete nonsence. Anyway, Germans could avoid any sufferings that followed the foreign occupation if they didn't attack USSR and other countries.
Nazism got what it deserved in Nuremburg, and all it's crimes were listed and judgement given.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hortlund, now I will tell you that Sweden is a corrupt semi-socialist state, much more opressive then USSR was. If you'll ask me about my sources - I'll tell you that it's based on novels by Per Valo. Nice easy reading, "The Steel Jump", "The End of 31st Department", "Police, Police - Mashed Potatoes!" etc. What should you say about my sources? Keep repeating the Propaganda Ministry roadkill if it makes you feel better, but - beware, it can lead you to very dangerous limits. I suggest you to go to Latvia to interview their SS hangmen they call "vets" and "freedom fighters", it's a good idea to collect all nazi amazinhunks in one place.
I never say that Soviet soldiers were angels, but the picture you draw is a complete nonsence. Anyway, Germans could avoid any sufferings that followed the foreign occupation if they didn't attack USSR and other countries.
Well, Sweden is ideed a semi-socialist state, not sure about the corruption though. Most northwestern european countries (Germany, Benelux, UK and Nordic countries) have practically no corruption at all. As for the opressiveness of the Swedish government compared to the USSR...well, let me just say that once agian you manage to demonstrate your ignorance.
Anyway, I suppose you were trying to make a point here somehow. But the analogy sucks bad because you are comparing a fiction writer/novelist to two of our times most recognized and appraised history writers (Beevor and Ryan). The analogy also sucks because everyone knows that you are wrong. So what should I say about your sources? Well, first, I'd say that it is only one source, second I'd say that a fiction novel might not be the best source you'd want to cling to.
As for the "propaganda ministry roadkill"...you really have no idea how unintentionally funny you are do you? Propaganda ministry sounds so very...Russian ...somehow.
The last part of your quote is so outrageously stupid that I'm not really sure how to answer to it. I see you are desperately clinging to option 3 I described in my earlier post. Let me just point out this then, the USSR could just as easily have avoided the death of 20 million Soviet soldiers and 20 million civilians in ww2 by just surrendering on June 22nd 1941.
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Most northwestern european countries (Germany, Benelux, UK and Nordic countries) have practically no corruption at all
I djust luv judges/policemen, they think they live in la la land
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
--am-- are you still so stupid or blind to see that official soviet documents were fabricated roadkill with no grounds on reality?
At you obvious problems with logic. If to avoid punishment, it is necessary send the false documents, why to be afraid? This so is easy - has written a lie and the heads has not learned the truth and has not punished. All to all is written by the false documents and all to avoid punishment. Stalin to not know what is done in the state because all documents false? You to speak the large nonsense. Any state functions only if there is a truthful information. There is no truthful information - state breaks up also people die out. However USSR existed 70 years and became from the agrarian country in the super-country. And you count, what it is all it was possible if all wrote in the documents one false? You to speak the large nonsense. You, which to not know even an own history tell to me a history of Russia? You are ridiculous. You can not result any proof confirming the fairy tales at all. Any of shelfs, which ostensibly wholly was lost. Name to me number it a shelf and I shall look where he was at war and that there was. But you will not name never, because you do not have facts. At you of one propaganda fairy tale. To you have washed out brains in childhood and you it to not understand.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Let me just point out this then, the USSR could just as easily have avoided the death of 20 million Soviet soldiers and 20 million civilians in ww2 by just surrendering on June 22nd 1941.
You're serious ?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, Sweden is ideed a semi-socialist state, not sure about the corruption though. Most northwestern european countries (Germany, Benelux, UK and Nordic countries) have practically no corruption at all.
You again speak a lie. Even the ex-chancellor of Germany Helmut Koll was under court in accusation about larceny of money. And what to speak about fineer officials.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Let me just point out this then, the USSR could just as easily have avoided the death of 20 million Soviet soldiers and 20 million civilians in ww2 by just surrendering on June 22nd 1941.
If your country will attack, you will not be at war even knowing, what to you will be applied mass destruction of the people? Germany wanted to destroy 90 % of the people living in USSR, and 10 % to make by the slaves. It is described in the German document "OST", which was submitted in Nuremberg.
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Originally posted by straffo
You're serious ?
Straffo, you kinda miss the point when you dont include the part you snipped...
I said what he wrote was so outrageously stupid that it would be the same as if I said [insert your quoted part]...
Relax Straffo, get a beer, I'm not sure what kind of opinion you have of me, but I'm not nearly as bad as you seem to think.
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--am--,
It didn't seem to me like it was choice of their free will to let US have military base in their country.
Not to mention that situation was far different than with Finland.
Cuba being under influence of communists and Afganistan full of anti-americans.
Finland again... pretty much neutral and probably couldn't have cared less to mess with russians.
What would have prevented USSR from keeping little army there and later on crush Finland from their military base because they felt like need for more ground for the sake of national security?
You don't know what I know, so quit talking in the way as if I would be illiterate.
...and you're the naive fairy telling the tales.
Quite hard to discuss with a person who can't see with his own eyes.
hehe.. you're actually making me laugh with 'original documents' arqument.
That'd be as hilarious reading as german war time propaganda.
OF COURSE those documents won't be talking against the nation.
You could just as well walk into Al Qaeda's headquorters and ask for documents, which would pretty much say they're on the right path and hasn't done anything wrong.
Obviously soviet propaganda has taught some people to believe just as some westerners have been taught of soviets - "they're brainwashed by propaganda, are bad people and we are the rightful ones"
Boroda,
When I watch movies, those are just movies for me.
the "russians are very very bad guys" propaganda is glowing brighter than gas fire.
Neither do I think US as awesome piece of democracy and totally uncorrupted country, just because movies says they're the good guys with rambos et al.
You only need to keep attention to history and you'll find out alot of things which can't be just false.
If some history was false, it was the history taught in USSR.
Im sure finns would ally with germans again if the situation would be the same.
Without germans, large part of people would be speaking russian and things would be like in Poland.
No thanks, have fun with your lovely communistic leaders, im perfectly happy with mine. (even though theres rotten ones.. but thats far better choice than Stalin)
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You again to demonstrate nonsense. You to not know a difference between the document with a signature stamp "top secret" and propagation in the newspaper. From your words it is visible, that you never in life held in hands the documents from archives, differently would not speak such nonsense. In the documents from archives there is all - both bad and good. Because with bad it was necessary to struggle (and with it struggled very rigidly), and good it was required to develop and to support. Therefore I speak, that I know about a history of Russia the good facts and bad facts. You do not know any facts, and try to present a usual set propagation of myths and to give out it for the facts. It refers to as forgery. You at all do not know a history of the country, and to estimate a history of Russia. It at you always in brains, what all Russian are silly also them "democracy" is necessary to teach? Your country struggled for íàöèçì both your government and army did not judge in Nuremberg only because of kindness Stalin. He has pitied you and has forgiven. He was the great man and it could allow to forgive of enemies. You are not able to forgive, at you it is too much intolerance to another's values not enough tolerance.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Straffo, you kinda miss the point when you dont include the part you snipped...
I said what he wrote was so outrageously stupid that it would be the same as if I said [insert your quoted part]...
Relax Straffo, get a beer, I'm not sure what kind of opinion you have of me, but I'm not nearly as bad as you seem to think.
I didn't understood this sentence at all and for a change instead of jumping in I prefered asking you if you were serious or not.
pfffffffffffffffffffffffff for once I tryed to be moderate ;)
Concerning my opinion about you ...
well ... I'm just an emotional guy so it can change daily :)
I'm logical only for my work as I can't program computer with emotion ...sadly ;)
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Boroda, I guess you really like your country.
QUOTE:
"I never say that Soviet soldiers were angels, but the picture you draw is a complete nonsence. Anyway, Germans could avoid any sufferings that followed the foreign occupation if they didn't attack USSR and other countries."
Recent evidence suggests that the Russians were planning to invade Germany in the Spring of 1942. Hitler just beat them to the party. In fact, the way Russian equipment was stockpiled in Poland just in order to be used the next year helped the Germans in causing even more damage to the Russian war machine. So, it was just a question of time, and who would be the aggressor.
The Russians invaded Poland also, don't forget that. The Russians invaded Finland. Beautiful and cunning politics? Naa, sheer brutal greed and landgrabbing. So in my eyes they did not differ a lot from the Germans.
Now there have been some issues of open or sencored history, and propoganda. Do the russian history books mention the mass murders of thousands of polish officers in Katyn forest (spelling?).
The Polish books under the communist reign did not. However, the Polish people still knew. Same accounts for the Jewish rebellion in Warsaw, where the red army halted its advance while the SS troops cleared out the Jews. Not in the books so much, but the people still know it. There was just so much stuff hidden under the red carpets of russia.
I like so many others here am not so well familiar with the russian lifestyle, neither today, nor before the fall of the iron curtain. However I have many friends that lived on the "other" side, and from them I know that it was very far from the open and "free" societies that the people of western europe take for granted. Communism may have its good points, but it totally lost the race in comparison with the western way.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
It's nice to see, Grobar, that not all russians are blinded by the stuff the communists fed you folks..
I know it is difficult to objectively look at your own country which you're proud of. Hats off to you for that.
Hi-hi-hi - thank God i`m not a russian. :cool:
But i think I do the above for my country. :) Last 10 years historians here write books like crazy, finally free to say what they had to keep only for themselves earlier.
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You repeat propagation of the doctor Gebbels. Russian certainly prepared for war. But all their scripts of war began with reflection of attack, instead of from an attack. You can one million time speak, that Russian prepared to attack in 42, but it is all your imagination. The historical fact - Germany have attacked on USSR. Germany carried out policy of destruction of the slavs and Jews.
Concerning Warsaw - you to false. The revolt was begun by the Poles under the order from London. At that moment Russian army with heavy fights and large losses has advanced on 500 km. The Red Army did not have forces, reserve, fuel. But even thus the Red army has passed through the river Vistula and has grasped a small site of ground. On this site of ground the First Polish army was thrown from deep rear. She consist of the Poles, but they have appeared the bad soldiers. German army they were broken also by the Poles ran for Vistula. Despite of a defeat of the Poles and loss of the seized ground behind Vistula, threw each night on Warsaw of ton of military cargoes and equipments. Threw even cannon and mortirs. But the Poles again have surrendered.
( On all this there are documents. If you as the fool and to think, that they false, read correspondence Stalin and Cherchill, Stalin and Rousvelt)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Let me just point out this then, the USSR could just as easily have avoided the death of 20 million Soviet soldiers and 20 million civilians in ww2 by just surrendering on June 22nd 1941.
diddlying nazi.
I am seriously thinking about buying a tour to Sweden. To make you several fine scars, like st. Alexander did to your "civilised" jarl Birger in 1240 at the place I had the fortune to be born.
"Kill him every time you meet him". Unfortunately - it's still true.
:(
diddlying nazi.
JFYI: the population of the USSR in 1941 was 150 million people. 9,5 million combat losses, the rest of the 27 million were civilians. 17.5 million civilians killed by your beloved nazi "gentlemen" who never raped anything.
Go diddly yourself.
Gentlemen, I beg your pardon for this kind of language. Simply couldn't help myself.
Again: diddlying nazi.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
two of our times most recognized and appraised history writers (Beevor and Ryan).
That bastards must be put under trial and sentenced for open and bold nazi propaganda.
Two lame Goebbels's followers they are. Appraised by nazis like you.
Tolliver and Contable were famous for writing "blond knight of reich" too. It doesn't make them serious historians, even when they repeat Propaganda Ministry radio shows word-to-word.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I wonder how long will it take to rewrite history and finaly prove that nazis were good, and fought evil communists to save Western civilisation.
Will you tell me that I must be ashamed looking at my Grandfather's medals?
Actually Boroda, what I'm saying is this:
The evil Nazis invaded the evil Russians. This was good for the less evil English, and the relatively good Americans. In the end, the evil Russians defeated the evil Nazis with the help from the not so evil English and the relatively good Americans. The evil Russians then enslaved most of Eastern europe.
That is my honest opinion. If you disagree, well too bad, suck it up. Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were just as evil, they were just evil in different ways. They both murdered innocent civilians, and if you want to compare bodycount, the Communists "won". They had different victims though, and different ways of butchering their victims. The nazis murdered innocent civlilians, mostly jews, and mostly people from other countries than their own. The communists also murdered innocent civilians, but mostly their own citizens. Both sides committed horrible atrocities against eachother and against eachothers civilians during the war.
Two rotten sides of the same rotten coin. How you want to feel when you look at your grandfathers medals is totally up to you. You can masturbate over them for all I care.
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Originally posted by --am--
I can still remind, that Finland has broken the contract about Aland of islands from 1921. Finland has constructed there military bases and strengthenings having broken thus contract, which she has signed.
Oh yes, Our nuclear-subs are having their port over there just next to our atlantic fleet.
Looks like you don't know a watermelon about those people and Åland itself.
When single small vessel went to the dock the hell did break loose. There are no military bases and actually they don't even have to go to the army like rest of the Finnish men.
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I understand, why Hortlund puts a mark of equality between Russian and nazis. Nazis this conventional evil. Sweden supplied all war Germany with ore, technologies and data on actions of the Allies. Actually, despite of an ostensibly neutrality Sweden was on the party of Germany in the Second world war. Therefore to not feel "untermensh" Hortlund tries to prove, that Russian it is same angrily, as well as nazi. This point of view sucks. Because all examples or completely false or same examples are and at the "kind" Englishmen and "kind" Americans.
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Originally posted by Staga
loose. There are no military bases and actually they don't even have to go to the army like rest of the Finnish men.
Finland has broken at 36-44 years the Convention about Aland islands?
The answers only YES or NO.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Actually Boroda, what I'm saying is this:
The evil Nazis invaded the evil Russians. This was good for the less evil English, and the relatively good Americans. In the end, the evil Russians defeated the evil Nazis with the help from the not so evil English and the relatively good Americans. The evil Russians then enslaved most of Eastern europe.
That is my honest opinion. If you disagree, well too bad, suck it up. Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were just as evil, they were just evil in different ways. They both murdered innocent civilians, and if you want to compare bodycount, the Communists "won". They had different victims though, and different ways of butchering their victims. The nazis murdered innocent civlilians, mostly jews, and mostly people from other countries than their own. The communists also murdered innocent civilians, but mostly their own citizens. Both sides committed horrible atrocities against eachother and against eachothers civilians during the war.
Two rotten sides of the same rotten coin. How you want to feel when you look at your grandfathers medals is totally up to you. You can masturbate over them for all I care.
By saying this you again openly state that you are a revisionist, doubting the decision of a Nuremburg International Court.
Here in Russia the above quoted paragraphs are enough to start a lawsuit for nazi propaganda. We are such a brutal asian barbarians.
Go diddly yourself. diddlying nazi.
I am not going to stand it. I will make you regret what you say by all possible means.
Kill him any time you meet him.
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Originally posted by --am--
Finland has broken at 36-44 years the Convention about Aland islands?
The answers only YES or NO.
Are you stupid? Yes or No ?
You say we have military bases in Åland. I say we don't have.
Who do you think is knows better?
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More about those islands: http://home.aland.net/m05343/aland.html
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It you stupid. Conversation that before " by Winter war " Finland has broken the Convention on the status Aland of islands and built there military bases.
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Ok true or false
USSR invaded Poland along with the Germans?
USSR purged it officer corps executing many, the rest to Siberia?
USSR invaded Finland?
If USSR was so great a nation why was nobody allowed to leave they had to defect?
America has messed up on situations ourselves but come on Borada, whatever you are smoking I would like some. ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
By saying this you again openly state that you are a revisionist, doubting the decision of a Nuremburg International Court.
Here in Russia the above quoted paragraphs are enough to start a lawsuit for nazi propaganda. We are such a brutal asian barbarians.
Go diddly yourself. diddlying nazi.
I am not going to stand it. I will make you regret what you say by all possible means.
Kill him any time you meet him.
Hrm...you dont think you went a wee bit over the line here Boroda?
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oh sorry am; I thought you meant we are having bases there now. Gotta see if I can find any info about pre-war years.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Hrm...you dont think you went a wee bit over the line here Boroda?
No I don't.
Revisionism = nazi propaganda.
I am sure you have a law against it in your country. And I am going to turn to the authorities so you will regret what you said.
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Poland has divided with Germany Czechoslovakia?
Poland murder 20 000 Russian captured the soldier in war 20 years?
Finland was completely seized by Russia after military defeat in " to Winter war "?
USSR has supported creation the state Israel? How many Jews have left from Poland for Israel in 1949 because of violence and murders, which were done by the Poles?
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I already to give the reference to yours (finnish) the textbook of a political history for universities
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Time for a Hug eh? It is after all ....2002 !
Lets say India and Pakistan go to war. It goes Thermal. Asia goes nuts and old wounds, much like we see above in the patriotic historical dribble above, open up. Cambodia, Vietnam and all the others get caught up in protecting their own borders as the worlds largest population of Muslims, Hindus and god knows who else decide to settle the religious question once and for all.
The middle East goes ballistic shortly afterwards with Iraq seizing its chance in the confusion to have another crack at Kuwait's oilfields. Israel decides its time to take out Palisitine whilst world attention is drawn elsewhere. The Saudi's. Egypt and the rest who could never be trusted, side with their Arabic brothers in Jihad against Israeli, British and American Interests.
Europe finally gets its act together and the ineffective Nato Alliance moves to bring peace in the Asiatic regions. Nato find themselves in a hotbed and cant do it alone. They are weak in the struggle iwith resources spread all over both Asia and the Middle East. The US sends in thousands of troops and war material to the regions to assist Nato in containing the region. Britain, Australia and Canada enter the fray. Britains resources are stretched. Australia are totally committed to the Asiatic. Canada is spread all over the place lending a hand.
European forces fighting to keep the Asiatic War from entrenching on their borders suddenly find the likes of France, Finland, Germany all mixed together in a hodge podge of a coilition force, old history forgotten. New history to be made.
Domestic Terrorism hit Europe. The internal Terrorists strike. the civil population in all countries are struck by fear. Mass Riots, demonstrations and Crime throw themselves against Civil defence forces.
Russians and Germans, Finns and Swedes, Japanese and Australian. All fighting side by side to tame a fire long out of control.
Someone lets go a Nuke!
Do you think any of them 50 years later, if there is a 50 years later will find their way to a BBS like this and say.....
"You started it!"
Unfortunately.....One of them probably will :(
Thank God I live in Australia where the only people we really have to watch are those mischievous Kiwis, just across the water.
Give it a rest fellas and give Peace a chance.
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Originally posted by Boroda
No I don't.
Revisionism = nazi propaganda.
I am sure you have a law against it in your country. And I am going to turn to the authorities so you will regret what you said.
Well, I was thinking more about this quote:
"Kill him any time you meet him. "
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What's the difference between WWII Russia and WWII Germany?
The leaders names. They were both going for a master plan. Instead of Stalin calling the purges cleansing... he called them purges.
-SW
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Originally posted by scspook
.
Give it a rest fellas and give Peace a chance.
What can be chance at the world, in which almost all have forgotten that nazis it is criminals and speak, what Russian (who has won these criminals) same criminals and even worse? And it is spoken by those who during war itself was on the party of criminals.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, I was thinking more about this quote:
"Kill him any time you meet him. "
It's a quote from a poem by Constantine Simonov called "If Your Home is Valuable to You" ("Yesli dorog tebe tvoy dom"). You can't throw away a word from a song, sorry.
http://lib.ru/PROZA/SIMONOV/stihi.txt
Looks like some of the nazis stayed alive. :(
Your words sent to Sweedish authorities. Damn, I hate to report :( In fact - never done it before....
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Did you send the link to the entire thread Boroda?
If you waste Sweden's time with an innocent man only voicing an opinion to refute you there will most likely be repercussions- on you.
You reap what you sow.
-SW
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It doesnt matter AKSwulfe..."Swedish authorities" wont bother with this since I havent violated Swedish law. Actually I am kinda curious as to where he reported this...the State department?
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I will accept any decision from any authority, and I'll appreciate any, including any form of punishment for me, for personal insults and using inappropriate lexics.
It is worth it.
Sure, I have sent a link to the whole thread. Again - I am not going to stand it. I will go to the very end.
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LOL! Atleast our Swedish authorities will have them selfes a good laughter this week :)
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BTW, who says there is a military base on Åland? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hortlund
It doesnt matter AKSwulfe..."Swedish authorities" wont bother with this since I havent violated Swedish law.
Nice country you live in. Way to go.
Again: I will go to the very end. I am not going to stand any amazinhunk advocating nazis hiding behind a so-called "freedom of speech".
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I like that poem, Boroda. Kind of similar to some of the ideas posted here.
He asked for it, that's his fault
Let his house burn down, not yours
and stuff like that. Good poem.
But the point is, many westerners are seriously underestimating the magnitude of the sacrifice the Russian people had to make in order to defeat the Germans. And obviously, it's a very touchy subject. And to say that "a couple of bad guys got into a fight, almost killed each other - who cares, good riddance" is just plain wrong.
PS. I wish Hortlund was French, so I could use the usual "How long does it take a French guy to say "We surrender!" bit :))
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In that case Hortlund- this has stooped to a new all time low for UBB disagreements.
Boroda, what would you do if a guy in bar disagrees with you? Smash a bottle over his head and turn him into your local gestapo? (term used loosely)
You should know better than anyone your military was severly weakened if not brought to it's knees by Stalin's purges. You should also know your government didn't believe Germany was attacking it nor did they give an official order to defend until well after the Germans had returned to base.
Your military was in general disarray and this resulted in millions of lives lost on Russia's part. The only things that saved Russia was the winter, and being in dug in positions in some areas- but military cohesian was certainly not one of them.
-SW
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Hmm...well, Boroda, if you actually read what I have posted on this thread, you will realize that I have not advocated any nazis at all. In fact I have said in many posts that I think they were criminal, evil wrongdoers. Personally I cannot understand the revisionists, IMO they are insane they are trying to defend the un-defendable.
What I have done is pointed out that the Soviets were just as bad as the nazis.
A fact that apparently was too much for you to handle.
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AKSWolfe,
so the winter was THE ONLY thing that saved the outcome of the war? ;-)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
What I have done is pointed out that the Soviets were just as bad as the nazis.
A fact that apparently was too much for you to handle.
If it is the fact, where the proofs? If there are no proofs, it not the fact.
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People don't like having their heros desecrated.
No doubt the Russian winter aided the Soviets in their defense. So did the incredible resolve of those people starving in St. Petersburg (Leningrad), the amazing relocation of factories eastward, and heroic accomplishments of the Red Army in very difficult situations. We who were not there will never understand the horror of war. Those of us who were more insulated from NAZI aggression may not have feelings as strong as those shown by Boroda.
Hortlund. You and I may agree on the evils of communism, but equating Russians to Nazi's is like pouring kerosene on a smoldering fire.
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Gee, am I lucky that I do not belong to a military nation. And yet, our Icelandic fishermen fed the British empire as well as they could by crossing the dangerous seas in their small vessels.
am: : I guess this one was aimed at me :
"You repeat propagation of the doctor Gebbels. Russian certainly prepared for war. But all their scripts of war began with reflection of attack, instead of from an attack. You can one million time speak, that Russian prepared to attack in 42, but it is all your imagination."
Well, I never read much of Goebbels work, in fact the bastard's propoganda makes me sick to the stomach. But this is not my "imagination", but a source on former "TOP SECRET" russian documents retrived from russian archives after the fall of the iron curtain. (This was followed up in the TV series "the cold war".) Aside from that, I do not think this is so unbelivable, - russian policy at the time was an aggressive one. But anyway, the Germans DID start the show, and they DID (in my opinion) top the scale of murder and crime.
However, had the russians been the aggressor, I doubt that the brutality would have been much less.
And Horthund, this one from you:
"The evil Nazis invaded the evil Russians. This was good for the less evil English, and the relatively good Americans. In the end, the evil Russians defeated the evil Nazis with the help from the not so evil English and the relatively good Americans. The evil Russians then enslaved most of Eastern europe. "
:D
Good one, and I agree with the most of it.
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AKSWulfe - please go buy yourself a book, looks like you don't own any.
My Grandfather was in the Army since 1939. Got his first Red Star for delivering first jet mortars to the front, then another Red Star and Red Banner for eight months at the front line, Guards Mortar Troops. Grand Uncle - captured near Kharkov in 1942, 2 years in nazi camps, then a successfull jailbreak. Another Grand Uncle killed on April, 7th, 1945 in Koeningsberg. He was 17... Other 3 Grand Uncles survived, one of them being an Imperial Army capitain, had to volunteer as a soldier in 1941... Father - a navy cadet since 1943, in sieged Leningrad...
Frost, you say?!
As AM already said - they were about to kill 90% of Slavic population. Thanks to the people I mentioned above - we still are allowed to live on this planet.
And what do I see here!? Another motherdiddlyer stating that WE WERE THE EVIL SIDE!?
If you don't want a soldier's portrait with crosses
To be thrown to the floor by a nazi
And that nazi will step on his face
At your Mother's eyes -
Kill at least one of them,
Kill him right now!
Every time you will meet him -
Kill him again!
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Originally posted by --am--
If it is the fact, where the proofs? If there are no proofs, it not the fact.
Total Soviet dead, caused by Soviet government from November 1917 to January 1987: 61 911 000, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
In sum, the Soviets have committed a democide of 61,911,000 people, 7,142,000 of them foreigners. This staggering total is beyond belief. But, as shown in Figure 1.1, it is only the prudent, most probable tally, in a range from an highly unlikely, low figure of 28,326,000 (4,263,000 foreigners); and an equally unlikely high of 126,891,000 (including 12,134,000 foreigners). This is a range of uncertainty in our democide estimates--an error range--of 97,808,000 human beings.
Figure 1.1:
[edit] I cant seem to get the picture to work right now (it is a picutre of a page detailing all the deaths in that 61 million-figure) I'll post it when I get home.
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Originally posted by Angus
(This was followed up in the TV series "the cold war".)
No comment :)
However, had the russians been the aggressor, I doubt that the brutality would have been much less.
That is some total and complete absurd. Russians have never aimed to eliminate certain ethnic groups in order to emphasize the kewlness of the arian race :eek
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What Histro said.
Threats of physical violence?? Please lock this puppy.
No one is listening to each other anyway.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Total Soviet dead, caused by Soviet government from November 1917 to January 1987: 61 911 000, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
One wise man said: "My PRO FORMA noodle is 10 inches long. However, my GAAP performance is a lot less impressive".
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AM, and Boroda, I hate so much having to repeat myself:
"The only things that saved Russia was the winter, and being in dug in positions in some areas- but military cohesian was certainly not one of them."
Which means pockets of resistence.
The Russian army was not prepared for an attack. The leaders did not initiate a response to the German attacks, individually- many squadrons got airborne to stop the attack. The leaders did nothing, however, to preserve what they assumed was a nonagression pact between Russia and Germany.
The Germans advanced Blitzkrieg style across Russia until they hit pockets of resistance and then it ground down to a halt due to the winter.
Who needs to buy books? Probably you fellas in Russia since your country has done a helluva job covering up it's attrocities and mistakes while under communist reign.
I never said Russia or it's people were evil- it's leaders, especially Stalin- were.
-SW
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Total Soviet dead, caused by Soviet government from November 1917 to January 1987: 61 911 000, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
BWA HA HA HA HA.
Stakes rise.
Who will finaly reach a 300,000,000 point?
I wonder how does this happen that there are still some people living here!?
You'd better stop smoking that thing. Tell your dealer next time to wrap it in Playboy page instead.
Tah Gut - thank you.
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Its not a matter of forgetting or a possessing a lack of knowledge about the Sacrifices from men of all countries.
Its about Learning from it. Giving meaning to that sacrifice.
Something we, no matter what our beliefs, race, culture and country are, as human beings sharing the one Planet for thousands of years are incredibly inept at.
The arguements in this thread are simply repeating those same mistakes. Mistakes that cost men, women and children their lives in countless bloody battles, crimes and Wars.
Your creating your own little Cold War as you argue over the reasoning of things past. You fall into the same trap you accuse the other side of. Ignorance and racial hatred.
As this thread proves from the characters clashing with it. It appears much easier to start a war, than to stop one and those of us that exist 50 years on can make the same mistakes in the blink of an eye over the smallest of arguements.
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The russians were the agressor on finnish borders, don't forget that.
And yes, there is such a thing as investigative journalism on tv - it doesn't have to come from a book to be credible.
Boroda and AM can't grasp the decades of lies their nation has been fed which is why it's impossible to change their attitudes. The difference is already clear with the nations which were occupied by USSR - they see the truth which the russians nationalism denies. That's understandable.
Maybe it's a bad comparison with nazi's but I'd definately say both systems were evil. Spending a lifeitime behind the iron curtain or choosing death by nazi's.. Nice selection of choices.
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Originally posted by Angus
curtain. (This was followed up in the TV series "the cold war".) Aside from that, I do not think this is so unbelivable, - russian policy at the time was an aggressive one. But anyway, the
TV, TV, In 1999 to me one has addressed American UFO-man. In USA have shown film where ostensibly in 1968 (or 1969) year KGB has found the space ship of the newcomers and has carried out opening bodies of the newcomers. As the proofs the broadcasting company has shown a film about a find of the ship by the soldiers KGB and opening of a body of the newcomer, and also piece of the newspaper with a note about fall of a meteorite. UFO-man wanted, whether that I have confirmed there is such newspaper. I have told about this history familiar to the journalist. She has found out, that an all this fake. TV-company came in Russia, has employed the actors and under St.-Petersburg has made this forgery. I saw record of interview with the assistant of the director of this film. She has told, that western employees of a TV-company have told them, that it is advertising film. When I have told to the American the truth, a bit later he has informed me, that TV-company any has threatened to submit to court on him and to take away all money and property. He was frightened. When the Russian broadcasting company "VID", has tried to expose western TV-swindlers, to her also have threatened with suit and to bring her employees in " the black list ".
I to tell this history, in which I took part, that you have understood - never on TV speak of the truth. TV of any state this instrument of propagation or instrument to make money on the fools. Therefore to me all the same, that you saw on TV. It is all a lie.
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AKSWulfe, you finally hit the point: USSR didn't want that war, neither it started it. But it have won it, despite of the fact that it wasn't ready and was in a hurry rearming it's army. To quote one wise man - our cause was just, the enemy was defeated, we won.
Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I never said Russia or it's people were evil- it's leaders, especially Stalin- were.
-SW
One simple question: why?
And you know I didn't mean you. Anyway - I beg your pardon.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Total Soviet dead, caused by Soviet government from November 1917 to January 1987: 61 911 000, 54,769,000 of them citizens.
Again there are no proofs. You can write any figures, but without the proofs both references to sources and documents all this roadkill
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I never said Russia or it's people were evil- it's leaders, especially Stalin- were.
-SW
You know what has told Chechill about Stalin, when Stalin has died?
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I'm sorry Boroda, I thought you meant I thought Russia was evil.
Yup, Russia was not the agressor and did not want the war. That much is very clear.
The war is not what made Stalin, and some of his "cohorts" evil, it's what they did just prior to the war.. the purges. I believe Russia could have and would have easily stopped the German advance if the military (and other areas) hadn't been purged... but this set the precedent to allow Germany to advance.
They did a helluva job, no doubt, holding on to the land they had left and relocating their industries to wage a war that was not theirs and they were not prepared to fight.
Believe me when I say this, I respect the Russian people for what they did and for their resolve (to not be pushed over by Germany and fight back despite the disarray the military was in initially)... plus- when a country makes a tank with wings that would inspire fear in German infantry and armor columns... then I can't not respect them.
It's just some of the leaders were inherently evil by instituting purges just before (and still during the opening months) of the war.
-SW
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--am-- so now you're comparing real world investigative journalists and historians to ufo stories? I bet you believed the story too untill they revealed the hoax.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
it's what they did just prior to the war.. the purges. I believe Russia could have and would have easily stopped the German advance if the military (and other areas) hadn't been purged... but this set the precedent to allow Germany to advance.
Can we say AFRIKA CORPS? German military was phenomenal, that's why blitzkrieg worked.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The russians were the agressor on finnish borders, don't forget that.
You speak it with such pathos, that one Russia is possible to think in XX century only conducted wars. Russia not businesses anything, that her distinguished from other countries, especially "democratic". At Russian there is a saying " If you to live among the wolves, you âîé as the wolf differently you will break off on a part "
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--am-- and Boroda let me ask you a few things..
During USSR, were you happy? It didn't bother you not to be able to express your opinnions without getting interrogated by KGB or Stasi etc..? It didn't bother not to have free press?
It didn't bother you weren't allowed ever to leave the country? It didn't bother you to have significantly lower standard of living compared to all capitalist countries? It never bothered you to have an industry which spews out pollution reducing the average life expectancy to 50 years? That's still the reality in petrozavodsk. There is an industrial area which has 10 square kilometers of barren area - all trees and vegetation has died from the toxics.
What's your stand on those details?
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Well "german military phenomenal" and employing tactics brand new to the world with new technologies on weaker less-prepared armies with older technologies are two different things.
You can see how the german military became less and less phenomenal as the war progressed. They were prepared to wage a quick war by decimating defenses and moving quickly.. hence "lightning war".
Had they run into a Russian army at full strength, I think the outcome would of been a lot different.
-SW
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AKSWulfe, thank you.
I hate to say this - but the "purges" topic was originally raised by dr. Goebbels...
My Grandfather, a cavalry officer, a brigade commander was "repressed" in 1933... He was released after a year on Baikal-Amur railway, all charges dropped. The reason for the arrest was that he was a former Imperial Guards low-rank officer (Pskov dragoon regiment, on the front since 1916). One of my Grand-Granfathers was sentenced in 1939 for an accident on the railway line he was in charge for, an "enemy of the people" :(, but his daughter married the officer who worked with the most horrible and secret weapons of that time...
But. But - in fact, during "Stalin's purges" we had two times less people in prisons then we have now. And now Russian Federation has only the half of the population of the USSR :(
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The russians were the agressor on finnish borders, don't forget that.
You speak it with such pathos, that one Russia is possible to think in XX century only conducted wars. Russia not businesses anything, that her distinguished from other countries, especially "democratic". At Russian there is a saying " If you to live among the wolves, you to work as the wolf differently you will break off on a part "
Russia one, and wolves around was very much. It England and France and Germany and Poland and Romania and Japan.
And even Finland, truth she was not the wolf, and fox, which provoked fight, that the large wolves have rushed on Russia and have broken off her on many slices and then Finland would manage a piece of Russia
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You speak it with such pathos
Damn sure I do. If people in this discussion state that Russia did not initiate a war, I have to disagree.
I'm not saying Russia is the mother of all evil and started every war there ever was, but you can't say it didn't start wars either.
Just as I can't say finland didn't start wars - we did initiate the continuation war by allowing german troops to attack northern russia via finland which inevidently lead to war with russia.
But the question (not really even a question) remains would this war ever have come unless russia attacked finland 1939? IMO it wouldn't - and we would have so much better relations between the two nations today.
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Originally posted by Boroda
But. But - in fact, during "Stalin's purges" we had two times less people in prisons then we have now.
And which country TODAY has the highest per capita prison population? Anyone knows? :)
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
--am-- so now you're comparing real world investigative journalists and historians to ufo stories? I bet you believed the story too untill they revealed the hoax.
:rolleyes:
Yes I compare, because when make money on a hot theme it not the researcher, is the businessman, which for the sake of 300 % arrived will make any crime.
I the very mistrustful man. I believe to the documents, instead of fairy tales written in the books or told with the screen TV.
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USA me thinks..
Boroda is right.. Prisons stay empty if you put a bullet to the head of all the political enemies :(
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Sorry --am-- but your response was in cyrillic letters. Most of us on this board can't read them.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Well "german military phenomenal" and employing tactics brand new to the world with new technologies on weaker less-prepared armies with older technologies are two different things.
hummmmmm less prepared armies maybe...weaker?
the anglo-french army in may'40 was almost twice as big as the germans, and teh french tanks were not only more numerous but also more battleworthy to start with (half the german tank strenght was made of tin cans with 20mm or 7.92mm machineguns while the french had much better tanks)
You can see how the german military became less and less phenomenal as the war progressed. They were prepared to wage a quick war by decimating defenses and moving quickly.. hence "lightning war".
Seawulfe, you must read some story of the battles in Russia before talking with so much security here. Germans became less and less phenomenal as the war progressed because their soldier pool was drying, and because they were heavily outnumbered anywhere.
There are multiple instances and examples on how the wehrmacht kicked some serious butt up to early 1944. However, since BAgration onwards, that was forever over.
German commanders were awesome on the offensive but were also superb on the defensive. See Manstein's actions during winter'42-spring'43 to get a grasp on what I am talking about...or see Balck's delaying actions on the eastern front in 1944.
Had they run into a Russian army at full strength, I think the outcome would of been a lot different.
-SW
WEll, they ran into an army wit 28000 tanks, and 8 million soldiers, with just 4 million soldiers and barely 3500 tanks...
In december'41 the red army had lost almost several millions of soldiers (between death and captured), and the Red ARmy tank force consisted on less than one thousand tanks. 1000!!!!!!!!
Germans were so tough to crack not because the revolutionary concept of offensive warfare they had, but because they were -SIMPLY- brilliant tactically, operationally and (in the rare instance when Hitler didnt mess into it), Strategically. In other words, the german Wehrmacht is one of the best,if not the best, armies even fielded on a battlefield, commanded by some of the best commanders the world has seen (Manstein, Guderian, Rundstedt, Balck...only to name a few)
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Now this Boroda what RRAM says could almost be considered revisionist quite contrary to what Hortlund says. LOL.
It's not against swedish law to spew out facts which they had been taught in school.
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hummmmmm less prepared armies maybe...weaker?
the anglo-french army in may'40 was almost twice as big as the germans, and teh french tanks were not only more numerous but also more battleworthy to start with (half the german tank strenght was made of tin cans with 20mm or 7.92mm machineguns while the french had much better tanks)
it just prove that a paper army can fail ....
I agree in theory the Allied had more power but in real they failed because a lack of initiative and skills.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
But the question (not really even a question) remains would this war ever have come unless russia attacked finland 1939? IMO it wouldn't - and we would have so much better relations between the two nations today.
At least we order itself honourly. We persuaded two years finnish government. We offered twice more grounds, than asked Leningrad, we offered trade, weapon and guarantees of borders. All of you have rejected. You have compelled us to be at war. But even when we have won you, we did not begin to include you in structure USSR. You were âåðîëîìíû. You together with Hitler have attacked us without any notices and warnings. Also it is not necessary now speaks, that we are guilty, that you were at war on the party nazis. Everyone chooses itself. Both of you of time have chosen war.
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Originally posted by straffo
it just prove that a paper army can fail ....
I agree in theory the Allied had more power but in real they failed because a lack of initiative and skills.
thats what I meant with "less prepared armies, yes", straffo :)...
The french army was thought to be the best in the world in 1939, it sure had lots of numbers on it...
but it was an army not ready to deal with the german army because its defensive mind...I'm not talking about the "maginot line" collective strategic mind, but of more operational and tactical paralysis in the french army command...
there are several instances of this command paralisys, the most important of them involving one of the french heavy armored divisions' Chars used as static defensive pillboxes instead of conducting a counterattack which could've threatened to cut the german drive towards the Channel...
so I agree with you that the french army was NOT ready for what the germans did on them...but it would be unfair to call the french army "weaker" than the german. It was WAY more powerful, but simply not well commanded. And that is where the wehrmacht excelled, in its command ranks.
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Originally posted by RRAM
WEll, they ran into an army wit 28000 tanks, and 8 million soldiers, with just 4 million soldiers and barely 3500 tanks...
28000 it is all Russian tanks from Brests up to Moscow serviceable and broken, new and old
3500 it is all serviceable German tanks in the first line of an attack on border. If to consider tanks in Germany, France, Czechoslovakia and other countries, total (switching and trophy) leaves for 16000
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Originally posted by RRAM
thats what I meant with "less prepared armies, yes", straffo :)...
The french army was thought to be the best in the world in 1939, it sure had lots of numbers on it...
but it was an army not ready to deal with the german army because its defensive mind...I'm not talking about the "maginot line" collective strategic mind, but of more operational and tactical paralysis in the french army command...
there are several instances of this command paralisys, the most important of them involving one of the french heavy armored divisions' Chars used as static defensive pillboxes instead of conducting a counterattack which could've threatened to cut the german drive towards the Channel...
Old theory at work :(
What is really dramatic is the fact that one of the theorician of modern warfare was de Gaulle ...
With this guy in command + a better organised army Hitler's bellybutton would have been kicked early and the world would have been different (I hope)
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
--am-- and Boroda let me ask you a few things..
During USSR, were you happy? It didn't bother you not to be able to express your opinnions without getting interrogated by KGB or Stasi etc..? It didn't bother not to have free press?
It didn't bother you weren't allowed ever to leave the country? It didn't bother you to have significantly lower standard of living compared to all capitalist countries? It never bothered you to have an industry which spews out pollution reducing the average life expectancy to 50 years? That's still the reality in petrozavodsk. There is an industrial area which has 10 square kilometers of barren area - all trees and vegetation has died from the toxics.
What's your stand on those details?
OK, let's start ;)
I was happy during USSR. JFYI - I was born in 1972.
Allmighty KGB is another cold-war myth. 99% of the so-called "dissidents" who were "suppressed" were fed by the enemy. Some of them still get their cash, now - from Islamic terrorists they adore.
Free press is a myth. There isn't anything "free", and I don't care if I'll read papers from communist party or financial groups.
I happened to "leave the country" and studied in an American high school as an exchange student.
Living standarts that include free professional health care, education, dwelling etc are low!? Hehe.
Industry that spews pollution!? Say what?! Moscow is one of the most "green" cities in the world. Yes, we have cities like Magnitogorsk, but heavy industry produses smoke everywhere, it doesn't matter - Urals or Appalaches. BTW, living standards in Magnitogorsk have always been much higher then even in Moscow or Leningrad, just to compensate the pollution to keep people living there.
50 years!? We didn't reach this mark even after "democratisation" that cut off good 15-20 years. Before the revolution life expectancy was 35 years for males :(
My friend, I have been to Petrozavodsk 2 years ago, and didn't notice anything unusual. I did drink water directly from Onego. You can find wastelands everywhere, even in Finland. JFYI, Karelia reached the lowest life expectancy in 1943.
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You focus on the ground war- Blitzkrieg relied heavily on the air to supress the armor and infantry.
Size does not necessarily equate to strength.
The French had better tanks, but they were getting decimated in the air. Air power= ground supremacy.
RRAM, by the following, I am beginning to believe you are the Spaniard LuftWannabe who has quit here so many times because of undermodelled German planes...
Seawulfe, you must read some story of the battles in Russia before talking with so much security here. Germans became less and less phenomenal as the war progressed because their soldier pool was drying, and because they were heavily outnumbered anywhere.
And why were their experienced dying? Because they were prepared for a quick, easy war employing tactics for that kind of war. However, the loss of experienced soldiers was less of a problem... the loss of experienced pilots would of been the bigger problem. Which again leads me to believe you are simply RAM.
There are multiple instances and examples on how the wehrmacht kicked some serious butt up to early 1944. However, since BAgration onwards, that was forever over.
And there are far more instances of Allied groups straight up whooping their ass. Your point here? Germany got lucky they rolled over most of the European continent so early... this gave them a foot hold which had to be breached, which wouldn't be easy. This was not necessarily because of the phenomenal war machine... but more due to the land they held. Any military man will tell you, the person with a continent will have more advantage over someone who has a body of water.
German commanders were awesome on the offensive but were also superb on the defensive. See Manstein's actions during winter'42-spring'43 to get a grasp on what I am talking about...or see Balck's delaying actions on the eastern front in 1944.
Every military has their awesome leaders... but if the whole thing isn't awesome then it doesn't matter one bit.
Uhm... WWII was revolutionary in it's concept of fighting. WWI was trench warfare- sheer power- overwhelm and make them run outta bullets and men first.
WWII was the first war where air power was used in conjunction with ground units. Germany used these new tactics of hitting front line installations, depots and other military targets and then moving in the armor and infantry to great success initially.
So basically this: "Germans were so tough to crack not because the revolutionary concept of offensive warfare"
is this: "because they were -SIMPLY- brilliant tactically, operationally and (in the rare instance when Hitler didnt mess into it), Strategically.". Revolutionary concepts tend to be brilliant tactically, operationally and strategically because the enemy hasn't seen this before.
-SW
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Yep straffo, I agree...De Gaulle was a very capable commander, but when he was given a chance to fight the germans, France already didnt' stand a chance to survive :(
But he sure created some havoc in his counter attack ;)
Originally posted by --am--
28000 it is all Russian tanks from Brests up to Moscow serviceable and broken, new and old
3500 it is all serviceable German tanks in the first line of an attack on border. If to consider tanks in Germany, France, Czechoslovakia and other countries, total (switching and trophy) leaves for 16000
excuse me, --am--...the Soviet army was deployed on an offensive fashion all around their western line. The major part of the soviet tank force was deployed near the front in June 22.
General Kirponos on the south (he was defending the Kiev front) had around 4500 tanks, just his army...
so one single soviet front had more tanks than the whole wehrmacht....
you get the idea.
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Originally posted by RRAM
excuse me, --am--...the Soviet army was deployed on an offensive fashion all around their western line. The major part of the soviet tank force was deployed near the front in June 22.
General Kirponos on the south (he was defending the Kiev front) had around 4500 tanks, just his army...
so one single soviet front had more tanks than the whole wehrmacht....
you get the idea.
And where do you expext Soviet tanks do be deployed for defence? Siberia!? Bering strait?! ;)
BTW, Kirponos was the smart guy who sent the tanks across the ice of the Finnish Gulf in March, 1940... Sic transit gloria mundi :(