Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hristo on May 26, 2002, 03:21:47 PM
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Any chance ?
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ya mean the german mk 103 cannon?
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First you need an aircraft that used it operationally ! :)
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We have one, a few variants of the 262 had 103's...lemme go get the info
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Here:
Type:
(A-1a) single-seat fighter
Engine:
Model: Junkers Jumo 004B
Type: axial Turbojets
Number: Two Thrust: 1,980lb (900kg)
Me 262A-1a/U1:
-Two 30mm MK 103
-Two MK 108
-Two 20mm MG 151/20
or this would be nicer
Me 262B-2a:
As A-1A plus two inclined MK 108 behind the cockpit in Schrage Musik installation
(D) SG 500 Jagdfaust with 12 rifled mortar barrels inclined in nose
(E) 50mm MK 114 gun or 48 R4/M rockets
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Some more:
The Me 262A-1/U1 differed from the standard A-1a in nose mounted armament. It featured two 20mm MG 151 cannon with 146 rounds each, two 30mm MK 103 cannon with 72 rounds each, and two 30mm MK 108 cannon with 66 rounds each. The MK 103 had a longer barrel and a higher muzzle velocity than the MK 108.
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didn't 190's have the ability to carry mk103 gondies?
and dual mk108 gondies?
SKurj
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Heinkel, how many were made? And were they used beyond testing? The Mk103 was much larger and heavier than the Mk108 that was used on most 262's, not to mention also adding to MG151/20's.
Skurj, I'm not absolutely sure, but if I remember right the Mk103 were only tested on the 190 (1 to 3 aircraft max) and never used operationally.
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Well, here's the part people wont like. 3 262's were made with the 2xMk108, 2xMk103, and 2xMg151. Out of those 3, one of them flew 1 combat sorite. The results wern't good, and they moved on to bigger and better things.
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Skurj, i think some prototype 190's had Mk103, but none flew with them. I will look into it more...
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Yes! Mk103 was used in some 190. From http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/
Mk 103 Aircraft Cannon
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Manufacturer: Rhienmetall Borsig
Caliber: 30mm
Weight: 146kg
Muzzle Velocity: 860mps
Rate Of Fire: 420 Rounds per minute
Round Types: High Explosive Incendiary and Armor Piercing
Round Weights: 330 gr. (11oz.)
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The MK103 was developed together with the MK 108: The MK103 was a high-velocity weapon to attack bombers from a distance, and for ground attack; the MK108 was a low-velocity weapon for single-seat fighters. The MK108 was much lighter (only 64kg) and cheaper (because it used many stamped parts).
The MK103 (MK for "Maschinenkanone") was broadly based on the earlier MK101, but its operation was changed to partially gas-operated (a gas pistoon was used to unlock the breech block) and it used electrically-fired ammunition instead of percussion-fired ammunition.
The MK103 weighed 146kg, against 178kg for the MK101, and fired at 420rpm (against 250rpm) with a similar muzzle velocity (860m/sec). It used 30 x 184B ammunition similar to that of the MK101. At the end the Germans seem to have used downloaded ammunition (with a lower muzzle velocity) to compensate for a shortage of strong alloys, and weaker guns.
The ammunition types developed were "Hartkern", AP with a tungsten core, and "Minengeschoss", a thin drawn shell with a large HE/I load. The former for ground-attack aircraft, the latter for use against bombers.
There was also a MK103M version for mounting on the engine, i.e. firing through the propeller hub. This had a different design for the gas duct (the standard gas duct did not fit in the tube running between the cylinder banks of German V-12 engines) and no muzzle brake (same reason). The MK103M seems to have been less reliable than the standard version.
The MK103 was installed in a few Fw 190 ground-attack aircraft (wings), in an experimental Me 262 (nose), the prototypes for the Ta 152C-3 (engine), in some Do 335s (engine and wings), and possibly in a handful of Bf 109K fighters (engine).
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Use Altavista (http://www.altavista.com) and translate this site from French to English site (http://normandie.niemen.free.fr/avions/190data.html)
It mentions that the 190 could carry 2xMk103's. Still trying to figure out which model though....
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Found it, 190 A-8 COULD carry Mk103's
Main modifications:
FW-190A-8/R1 - Fighter. Armament: 6 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber - in the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/R2 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber + 2 MK 108 guns of 30mm caliber - in the wing and 2 machine-guns MG 131 of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/R3 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber - in the wing + 2 MK 103 guns of 30mm caliber - under the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/R7 - “Ramjaeger”. Armament: 4 MG 151 guns of 20mm caliber - in the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood. Strengthened armor.
FW-190A-8/R8 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MK 103 guns of 30mm caliber - under the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
FW-190A-8/U1 - Two-seater training aircraft.
Edit* Forgot to point out that the FW-190A-8/R3 and FW-190A-8/R8 were the models that could carry the 103's
Edit again , here's a description:
The FW-190A-8 R3 Formation Destroyer. A bit of explanation of this variant is in order. At this point in the war, huge formations of US and British bombers would attack Germay, day and night. The FW-190 was better able to deal with these bombers by its already formidable armament (two 7.7 or 13 mm machine guns, and usually two or four 20mm cannon.) The long barreled 30mm cannon was conceived as a "formation destroyer" - it didn't need to be accurate, it just had to disruupt the defensive box formations the bombers flew in. It was successful at this - and any bomber unlucky enough to be hit by this weapon was a goner. This was one of the most heavily armed FW-190 variants, both in number and caliber of guns.
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Here's a good page that lists every variant of the 190, Including the 190A-8/R3
190's (http://www.geocities.com/bookie190/Variants.htm)
Fw 190A-5/U11 Bomber-destroyer with external/internal mountings of MK 103/108 30mm cannon
Fw 190A-5/U16 Bomber-destroyer with wing mounted MK 103/108 30mm cannon
A-5's could carry 103's also but i am not sure if they were flown in combat.
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Heinkel the A8 R2 and and I think the R3 both mounted the Mk108. Just because you see a number like U# or R# doesn't mean it wasn't a test aircraft. Funked has the info on which were used in production aircraft, but I'm fairly sure no Mk103's were used.
And 3 aircraft produced for the 262 is not production, unit level operational aircraft. Thats prototype, testing level.
Sorry but I still haven't seen anything that would indicate that any of the aircraft in AH used the Mk103.
If I remember right we would have to have a Me410 or Hs129 (or a Do335 but it wasn't really more than a prototype itself) before the Mk103 would rightfully be introduced here.
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Well, the 262 with the 103's is a bit far-fetched, and the 190 A-5 w/ 103's never flew, but all of the stuff i have suggets that the 190 A-8/R-3 Flew with 30mm's.
it didn't need to be accurate, it just had to disruupt the defensive box formations the bombers flew in. It was successful at this - and any bomber unlucky enough to be hit by this weapon was a goner.
See above, where it says ann Buff hit by the weapons of a Mk103 is a goner? How would they know, unless it really happened?
I also found somwheres, the the a-8/r-3 was a common package during the end of the war, and it was re-named to somthing else...i'll post the link when i find it again.
From what i have found, i am 95% sure, that the 190A-8/r3 did fly combat sorites.
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I believe some 190A8s had Mk-103 pods on them
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I believe Heinz Bar was flying MK103/MG151 armed 262. He got some P51s with it.
Anyway, I had Me 410 and He 219 in mind.
But if 190 used the MK103, then yes, shoud be here.
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Here, this is from a pilot who flew the Fw190 A-8/R8 against buffs...
"Pimpf was the Fw 190 A-8/R8 of 19 year old 'youngster' Matthäus Erhardt, one of the youngest pilots of 5./JG 300 and Bretschneider's wingman. Credited with seven victories including five heavy bombers. The red rear fuselage band on this aircraft was Rot Braun 45, red oxide primer. Here the II Gruppe Rot 23 bar is missing. Also the upper cowl MG 131 guns are removed and the gun-troughs faired over. Erhardt was shot down in this aircraft on 14 January 1945 after himself shooting down a B-17. He baled out but was badly wounded"
Might i remind you the arament of a Fw190 A-8/R8?
FW-190A-8/R8 - Fighter. Armament: 2 MK 103 guns of 30mm caliber - under the wing and 2 MG 131 machine-guns of 13mm caliber above engine hood.
There isn't any more proof then this.
-edit- spelling
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Ty Hristo, i can confirm that
With JV 44, he (Heinz Bar) flew the prototype Me 262A-1a/U1 extra heavily armed with six cannon including two 20mm MG 151s, two 30mm MK 103s and two 30mm MK 108s. He downed his last three victories, all Republic P-47 Thunderbolts, with JV 44. Bär ended the war with the rank of Oberst (or full Colonel).
So the Me2621a/U1 did see combat, so it wouldn't be too far fetched to add it...
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And a clip from another site about the 190A8/R3
The FW-190A-8 was upgraded to include the GM1 nitrous system. Heavily armored and armed the FW-190A-8/R3 was used as both a bomber-killer and a tank destroyer. Its MK 103 cannon, while slower than the Rustatz 2's MK 108, achieved better accuracy through its longer barrel. This accuracy proved a great asset when attacking fast moving Soviet tank columns on the extensive Eastern Front.
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Here is a picture of a 190A-8/R8, notice the pods under the wing where the 30mm Mk103 is. Can anyone identify that noseart for me?
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Here, a Fw190 A-8 w/ 30mm of Jg300
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Originally posted by Heinkel
Here is a picture of a 190A-8/R8, notice the pods under the wing where the 30mm Mk103 is. Can anyone identify that noseart for me?
looks like MK108 gondolas to me.
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Originally posted by Heinkel
Here, a Fw190 A-8 w/ 30mm of Jg300
Hmm, I'd say this one is an earlier version than A-8. No MG131 bulges on cowling. Also, inner gear doors, rare on later models.
Still, pursuing the MK103 on 190 is pretty interesting. A-8/R-8 then ? OK ;)
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Originally posted by Heinkel
Here is a picture of a 190A-8/R8, notice the pods under the wing where the 30mm Mk103 is. Can anyone identify that noseart for me?
Looks like a night fighter..isnt that radar on the tops of the wings?
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Not too sure, it's in the Hanger, so it could be tools, equpitment, or maeby radar? cant tell from picture.
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With the introduction of 1.10 buff formations, I'd go with some of the out-of-gunner-range weapons.
MK103 and BK5 come to mind. Me 410 had them both and would be an ideal buff busting platform. Who knows, maybe it'll go up on the priority list ?
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Heinkel, your first picture shows a 190 with two Mk108 pods, the second one is with Mk103 pods.
The Mk103 armed 190s were mainly used in the russian front against tanks. AFAIK, the results against ground units were not outstanding compared to the usage of bombs and rockets.
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The MK103 gunpod as seen above are of the first version, IIRC it's a picture of one of the A5 prototypes fitted with this armament. The A8/R3 indeed carried similar pods but they were slightly different, more streamlined. Other aircraft carried the 103, some versions of the Bf 110 could carry a belly MK103 pod for example.
Due to the high recoil of the MK103 precision was not very good for the wing ounted gondolas, moreover the performance loss incured by those were quite large, making the aircraft a sitting duck.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
The Mk103 armed 190s were mainly used in the russian front against tanks. AFAIK, the results against ground units were not outstanding compared to the usage of bombs and rockets.
So the MK103 armed 190s were a reality afterall ? Nice to hear that.
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Heinkel
Pick is showing Fw190 A-6/R6, werknr 550214 and unit NJG11 or 8./JG 11...
2./NJGr 10, NJG 101 and 1./NJG 10 used Fw190 A6 and A8s as night fighters (fitted with flame dampers, FuG 217 J-2 "Neptun" or FuG 216 with Letzler aerials)
But this plane lacks radar antennas so its more likely part of JG11...
This factory drawing ? shows 190 gondola armament etc
Orginal pick quality was much better but was too big to attach here :(:o
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Heinkel, your first picture shows a 190 with two Mk108 pods, the second one is with Mk103 pods.
The Mk103 armed 190s were mainly used in the russian front against tanks. AFAIK, the results against ground units were not outstanding compared to the usage of bombs and rockets
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Yup, i found this too. Adding the 190 w/ 30mm's might also be possible...
"The FW-190A-8 was upgraded to include the GM1 nitrous system. Heavily armored and armed the FW-190A-8/R3 was used as both a bomber-killer and a tank destroyer. Its MK 103 cannon, while slower than the Rustatz 2's MK 108, achieved better accuracy through its longer barrel. This accuracy proved a great asset when attacking fast moving Soviet tank columns on the extensive Eastern Front"
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Here ya go 190F8 carried it as well
Fw 190F-8/R1 Attack aircraft, armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 fuselage-mounted guns and 4 × 20 mm MG 151/20 wing-mounted cannon as well as underwing bombs on 4 × ETC 71 racks.
Fw 190F-8/R2 Attack aircraft, armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 fuselage-mounted guns and 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 wing-mounted cannon, supplemented by 2 × 30 mm MK 108 cannon in underwing gondolas.
Fw 190F-8/R3 Attack aircraft, armed with 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 guns and 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon, supplemented by 2 × 30 mm MK 103 underwing cannon for tank-busting operations.
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Yup, the "R3" package, which included the Mk103's could be fitted to and was fitted to the 190 A-6, 190 A-7, 190 A-8, and the 190 F-8
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So, do we have a missing loadout option for our Fw 190A-8 ?
And that being a pair of underwing MK103s ?
Seems so...now we wait ;)
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Only a handful of prototype 190s flew with MK 103. Don't confuse it with MK 108 which was used on 190s flown by specialist bomber interceptor units.
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Weather the 190's were prototypes or not, there were some 190A-8's that flew Combat Sorties with Mk103's against russian tanks.
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What would be best is to see the Me410B-2/U2/R3 which carried two MG151/20s and two MK103s, or an Me410B-2/U4 which crried two MK103s and one 50mm BK 5 gun supplied with 21 rounds.
The Me410 would be a very nice addition to AH.
Hopefully the Me410 and MK103 are both introduced in AH v1.11.
(BTW, Pyro once posted that the three aircraft he most wanted to do were the Me410, H8K "Emily" and Storch. There is hope.)
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What IMO we are missing is a 190A8 using a big GM1 bottle instead the aux fuel tank to increase its poor performance above 20k. Even the chance to fly the 190A8 with or without that tank, as well as the chance to remove the pair of Mg131 (option available for almost any USAF plane), or to choice the ammount of ammo loaded for these weapons.
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You know, I'd love to have the 50mm 262.
Would be cool if HTC would give us a 262B-2A armed only with the 50mm nose gun and the bombs it could load. At 10 perk cost itd make one hell of a fun cheap perk plane.
50mm would make it a very poor anti-buff or anti-fighter plane (extremely low refire..youd have to REALLY aim the sucker hehe).
:)
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Can we add these variatns to AH.........kidding
Focke-Wulf FW 190 (20,087 all variants)
FW 190V # (86 some Ta 152)
FW 190A-0 (11)
FW 190A-1 (100)
FW 190A-2
FW 190A-3
FW 190A-3/U-1
FW 190A-3/U-3
FW 190A-3/U-7
FW 190A-3/Trop
FW 190A-4
FW 190A-4/U1
FW 190A-4/R6
FW 190A-4/U8
FW 190A-4/Trop
FW 190A-5
FW 190A-5/R6
FW 190A-5/U2
FW 190A-5/U3
FW 190A-5/U6
FW 190A-5/U8
FW 190A-5/U10 #
FW 190A-5/U11
FW 190A-5/U12
FW 190A-5/U13
FW 190A-5/U16
FW 190A-5/U17 # (prototype 190F-3)
FW 190A-5/Trop
FW 190A-6
FW 190A-6/R1
FW 190A-6/R2
FW 190A-6/R3
FW 190A-6/R4
FW 190A-6/R6
FW 190A-6/Trop
FW 190A-7
FW 190A-7/R1
FW 190A-7/R2
FW 190A-7/R3
FW 190A-7/R4
FW 190A-7/R6
FW 190A-7/Trop
FW 190A-8
FW 190A-8/R1
FW 190A-8/R2
FW 190A-8/R3
FW 190A-8/R4
FW 190A-8/R6
FW 190A-8/R7
FW 190A-8/R11
FW 190A-8/R12
FW 190A-9
FW 190A-9/R1
FW 190A-9/R2
FW 190A-9/R3
FW 190A-9/R4
FW 190A-9/R6
FW 190A-9/R11
FW 190A-9/R12
FW 190A-9/Trop
FW 190A-10 #
FW 190B # (3 converted from 190A-1)
FW 190B-1 (1 incomplete)
FW 190C-0 # (6, 1 converted from 190A-0)
FW 190D-0 (10 converted from A-7s)
FW 190D-9
FW 190D-9/R11
FW 190D-10 (2 converted from 190D-0s)
FW 190D-11 (7)
FW 190D-12
FW 190D-12/R5
FW 190D-12/R11
FW 190D-12/R21
FW 190D-12/R25
FW 190D-13
FW 190D-13/R5
FW 190D-13/R11
FW 190D-13/R21
FW 190D-13/R25
FW 190D-14 (2, 1 each converted from 190D-9 and 190D-12)
FW 190D-15 proposal only (conversions of 190A-8 and 190F-8)
FW 190F-1
FW 190F-2
FW 190F-3
FW 190F-3/R1
FW 190F-3/R3
FW 190F-8
FW 190F-8/R1
FW 190F-8/R2
FW 190F-8/R3
FW 190F-8/R5
FW 190F-8/R8
FW 190F-8/R11
FW 190F-8/R14
FW 190F-8/R15
FW 190F-8/R16
FW 190F-9
FW 190F-10 proposal only
FW 190F-11 proposal only
FW 190F-12 proposal only
FW 190F-13 proposal only
FW 190F-14 proposal only
FW 190F-15 # (1)
FW 190F-16 # (1)
FW 190G-0
FW 190G-1
FW 190G-2
FW 190G-3
FW 190G-4
FW 190G-7 proposal only
FW 190G-8
FW 190H-1 proposal only
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Heinkel, how many /R3 MK103 gun pods kits were manufactured for use on the Fw?
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hhhhmmmm.... just add Ta 154 A1 to game :p
Ta 154 A-1 "Schwerer Jäger, Nachtjäger"
Max speed: 385-435mph (620-700kmh)
Armament
2 x 30 mm MK 108 (110 rds each)
2 x 20 mm MG 151/20 (200 rds each)
2 x 30 mm MK 108 at "Schräge Musik"
-FuG 220 Lictenstein SN-2 radar (Nachtjäger)
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Heinkel, how many /R3 MK103 gun pods kits were
manufactured for use on the Fw?
Like funked said, just a handful. A few squads were equpied with them on the East front.
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In other words the /R3 was 'few and far between' when it came to operational JG usage.
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'few and far between'
You could say the same thing about the ostwind. There were only a "handful" of them made too, yet it is in the game. A 262 with Mk103's or a 190 with Mk103's isn't too far fetched, the 262 with mk103's, and the 190 with 103's both flew combat sorties.
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There was 391 "Mobelwagen", "Wirbelwind", and "Ostwind" produced - all basically the same vehicle. There were other AA vehicles as well, are they all represented?
One Me262A-1a/U1 had MK103 cannons and flew ONE mission. So why not ask for the Me262(WkN112355) with 6 MK108 cannons as well? Or why not have the Me262 with the 4 MK213 cannons?
Am still waiting for a definate quantity produced for the Fw's /R3. How about some combat records of its use(where, when, who). What 'kills' did it claim.
Your logic means any prototype a/c should be included in AH.
Those MK103 on the Fw could not hit the broad side of the barn door if they were parked right in front of the door. Also the performance of the Fw was drastically reduced with the /R3.
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Produktion der Flakpanzer auf der Basis vom Fahrgestell des Panzer IV bis zum Mai 1945
Möbelwagen - 3,7cm Flak 43 -------- (44) *205 (45) *35
Wirbelwind - 2cm Flakvierling ------- (44) *100 (45) *6
Ostwind - 3,7cm Flak 43 ---------- (44) *15 (45) *28
Kugelblitz - 3cm MK 103/38 twin ----- (44) - (45) *5
Hs 129B-2/R2 and Hs 129B-2/Wa (Waffentrager) could carry MK 103 in ventral pod. He 219A-2/R2 carried two MK 103 under fuselage. ;)
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I've got some nice photos of 190's using underwing Mk103's, let me know if ya want em.
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I dont know if this actually qualifies as evidence, or even how much it actually contributes to this dsicussion..but, I bought a plastic model kit of a FW-190F8 recently for my son and I to build and it came with Mk103 underwing pods. It looks downright vicious with them on it:cool:
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Wil, been searching all over for pics of 190's with Mk103, and only found 1(the one i posted) , anymore would be great!
Thanks!
Heinkel
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So you support the cannon package for the F6F? More were built and used in combat, or the P47M, or the... ( add your fav here) :D
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Originally posted by Hristo
Hmm, I'd say this one is an earlier version than A-8. No MG131 bulges on cowling. Also, inner gear doors, rare on later models.
Still, pursuing the MK103 on 190 is pretty interesting. A-8/R-8 then ? OK ;)
It's Fw 190A-6/R3 Bomber-destroyer with 2 MK 103 30mm cannon in underwing pods