Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hristo on May 27, 2002, 05:14:53 AM
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Anyone, please ?
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This is what I have:
Fw 190 A-9
# Built: 400
Speed: 408 MPH
Horsepower: 1,700
Engine: BMW 801 TS
Climb: 2,350 FPM
Cealing: 37,400 FT
Range: 560 Miles
Empty Weight: 7,055
Loaded Weight: 8,470
Crew: 1
Engine: 1
Fw190A-9
Next and last production series of the A version aircraft was the Fw 190A-9. Previously, it was thought this plane would have been powered by a 1765 kW (2400 hp) BMW 801 F engine. But the BMW factory had not started production of these engines in time and, as a replacement, the 1470 kW (2000 hp) BMW 801 S engine was used with a more efficient, 14 blade fan. These engines were delivered as a power unit BMW 801 TS because of their need for a more efficient radiator and bigger oil tank mounted side by side. Both were in the form of a ring ahead of the engine under an armor cover with thickness increased from 6 to 10 mm. Large area, three bladed wooden propeller with constant speed mechanism should have been used as a standard, but for unknown reasons the majority of the A-9 planes (as opposed to F-9) had the metal VDM 9-12176 A propellers, as used in the previous version. One difference in the airframe between A-9 and A-8 model was a larger cockpit canopy, adapted from the Fw 190F-8 version. A few planes got tail sections with an enlarged tail as provided for Ta 152 fighters. Armament and Rustsatz kits were the same as in the A-8 version, but in many cases, on the pilot's request external part of the wing mounted MG 151/20 E cannons were removed.
Production of the plane started in the end of autumn 1944 and continued parallel to A-8 version. Monthly output depended on limited deliveries of BMW 801 TS engines. Also developed was a project for a highly modified Fw 190A-10 fighter powered by a BMW 801 F engine, but it was not completed because of the end of the war.
And yes, these did fly. Here is a Fw190 A-9 Of II./Jg300
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Whops, forgot pic
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I think this is what you wanted Hristo
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Second part:
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Heinkel:
1 - These figures are from a known wargame.
2 - A9 had a bubble canopy same as F8, some of them had the tail section of Ta152. Your picture may be from a modiffied A8 or even real F8 instead of an A9. The only way to identify a picture as an A9 is if it has bubble canopy and Ta152 tail.
In any case, from where did you get the numbers (400 built) ?
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There's some data in this thread if you haven't already seen it.
http://pub73.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=15.topic
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Originally posted by Nashwan
There's some data in this thread if you haven't already seen it.
http://pub73.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=15.topic
Very interesting discussion, mainly the performance of the 190A8 achieving 2100Hp using 1.65 a.t.a.
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MANDOBLE, here is the site i got the 400 figure from
Planes of WW2 (http://www.acepilots.com/planes/specs.html)
This is a very accurate and reliable source.
As for the figures i posted above, they are correct, because they are Similar to the figures of the Fw190 A-8, and the A-9 and the A-8 are very similar.
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Heinkel, your effort is really appreciated, but your last link is 100% unreliable, look at the performance figures for any 190 variant, all are the same plane.
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What you are looking at, is the 190's with the 1700 HP Engine, so yes, they will all be similar in climb rate. Keep in mind these were all tested with the Same gun package, and had similar options. Since all the 190's frames were similar, and since all the 190's had the same options, the reults were similar. These figures were all taken from books (some of which I have) and from the books, and internet sources, they seem accurate.
The info on this page was taken straight from books written by people who are LW piolts, or Know LW piolts. I have compared the info on this page, to other sources, and it is correct.
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Here:
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and here:
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Notice, that both the 190F-8 and the 190A-8 have the same top speed of 408 MPH, which confirms the data on that webpage.
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The A-5 also has a top speed of abut 408 MPH. It's more like 412 from the diagram on the AH site, beacuse the AH Top speed is with 2x20mm 151, and 2x20 mm MGFF, while the top speed on that site, is with 4xMg151
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For the info on the 190A-9 Pic, see this site:
190 A-9 (http://www.jg300.de/IIJG300.htm)
and click on the 190A-9 picture.
The information on this site has been confirmed by MEMBERS of the Real JG300 squadran. All this information is correct on this site, including the picture of the 190 A-9.
SOME of the 190A-9's had 152 tails, not all. This is just one that didnt have the 152 tail.
I'll look for a pic of the 190A-9 w/ the 152 tail.
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ah's charts are unreliable when discussing this matter. 190A8's chart and in-game performance are pretty accurate, and Fw190A5's speed at altitude is quite correct in this game...
but AH's fw190A5's is slower than what it should be at low altitudes, so there is no point in using its charts as proof of anything...
if you want to use something solid, use this chart, not AH's one:
(http://212.73.32.211/hosting/0003d/ebringas/a5speed.gif)
Or use some other of similar or higher reliability than this one.
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Ok, Maeby your right, so look at this link:
Planes (http://www.flugzeugwerk.net/)
go to that link, and click on the Fw190 A-5, and Fw190A-8 on the side tool bar. They both have the same exact speeds.
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That's a link to a page based in data from another game ...I see no performance charts with the logo of Focke-Wulf, dated in 1943 ,to back up those numbers.
Anyway the data in that page is copied from Il2's object viewer, wich, in turn, lists WRONG performances for planes (a problem admitted by oleg maddox himself). The Fw190A5 in Il2 performs WAY better than what is seen in that page
In fact, and at least up to 2500m, Il2's Fw190A5 performance matches almost milimetrically the performance seen in the chart I've pasted avobe.
BTW, I've run a short test of Fw190A5's performance in aces high. when I stopped the film,at 21.1K, the plane was making 407mph, and still was slowing down slightly...
I repeat once again, that in my humble opinion Fw190A5's speed in aces high needs to be looked at.
Now, this discussion has gone way off-topic. This thread is about Fw190A9's performance, not Fw190A5's. Still I insist that you need to base your arguments on a SOLID base.
Computer Game charts are,generally speaking (and with notable exceptions) NOT a solid base to use, that's all I wanted you to see. I hope you get the point.
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I do see your point. But I have various books, and internet sources that confirm that the Fw190 A-5, A-6, A-7, and A-8 all have similar top speeds (around 408 MPH). Now, what this means, is that, that link i posted above contians valid information, and that there were 400 Fw190 A-9's made.
BTW, i am having trouble reading that diagram? Whats the top speed of the A-5?
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according to the chart I posted avobe, the Fw190A5 has the following speeds at the following altitudeS:
351mph@SL
373mph@4100feet
367mph@9850feet
407mph@20500feet
as you might note, AH's Fw190A5 is notably slower than what it should be at low altitudes according to that chart.
Other thing to note is that the reads I've given are all REAL speeds (taking instrumental error into account). I don't know if other planes in this simulator have performances based on charts which take in account instumental error or not.
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Ok, well 20500feet is about 6200M, so the data on the original site I posted is correct, which means that is a valid site, and there were 400 190A-9's produced.
This is the site i am referning to:
Site (http://www.acepilots.com/planes/specs.html)
Once again, it was made using books (some of which I have), and I can confirm that the data is correct on that site, by my books.
And you were correct, that Il-2 Site is wrong on the speeds
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BTW, where do you get the FW charts? I have some in a book, but i cant find it at the moment. Is there a website?
Thanks
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Just one thing to remember when talking about Fw 190s: The blocks of werknummers were alotted before the planes were actually built. And late in the war they didn't get around to building many of the planes for which numbers were alotted. Unfortunately many authors didn't realize this, and have published incorrect (overly large) production figures based on the werknummer blocks instead of factory production records or Luftwaffe delivery records.
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Just in the spirit of Funked's post... :)
Spitfires suck!
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LOL
Germans had NO planes in WW2!!! :)
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I'm serious about the werknummern though.
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Would any of us truly give a sh*t if we didn't play these games?
All this arcane information and knowledge is wonderful.
F.
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I'm serious too!! :D
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Werknumbers may be an unnaccurate way to determine real production of A9s. Perhaps looking for production of BMW801S and TS may give us a more clear idea about the usage level of this plane.
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From what I've read, Fw never recieved those engines.
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The werk# vs. production #s is true.
One thing not being mentioned - many aircraft (mostly Bf 109 and radial engine Fw 190) were 'built' by the 'rebuilding' of heavily damaged aircraft from 1943 onward.
For example, it's a good bet that more Fw 190A-6s saw operational service than just the # of Fw 190A-6s listed as 'built'. Every A-4 and A-5 surviving by the time the A-6 was 'standardized' eventually 'became' an A-6.
A-8 -> A-9 is basically a powerplant change alone. It's a good bet that a high % of any A-9s that saw service weren't officially 'built from the ground up' at a production facility. A-8 goes to rebuild facility with heavy damage, newer engine available, A-8 comes back out the door as an A-9.
Mike/wulfie
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Yep the rebuilds are a big factor. I believe it was William Green who pointed out that the claimed total of 20,000 Fw 190s built far exceeds the total number of BMW 801s built. :)
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Funkedup,
For certain about production #s and rebuilds. I have no doubt that the Bf 109 got it's 'production record title' from a little 'rebuild' help as well.
Mike/wulfie
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The last of the A series aircraft. The A9 was supposed to be powered by the more powerful 1765 kW (2400 hp) BMW 801 F engines. However these were unavailable and the 801TS was used instead
It was the 801 F engine they never recieved. The 801 T was used instead. And like sombody said, they 190A-9's were very similar to A-8's except for a different engine, and some had 152 tails.
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RRAM, where did you get the Chart from? I want sources so I can buy some books and stuff and get more charts :)
Btw, are you RAM?
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wulfie14,
do you know what the difference was between the A-4 > A-5 > A-6? - to much for any field conversion. If there was 3200 A-6 built, thats how many there was, no more, no less.
An example of a re-build is the NASM's F-8 (WkN 931 884) which had an A-7 ID plate (WkN 640 069), found during restoration, still mounted in the fuselage.
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wilbus those charts I found them here in this same board some time ago...and some others while looking for them on internet :)
I wish I had a book with all those jewels :)
Originally posted by MiloMorai
wulfie14,
do you know what the difference was between the A-4 > A-5 > A-6? - to much for any field conversion. If there was 3200 A-6 built, thats how many there was, no more, no less.
An example of a re-build is the NASM's F-8 (WkN 931 884) which had an A-7 ID plate (WkN 640 069), found during restoration, still mounted in the fuselage.
Milomorai, from A4 to A5 I agree, the difference was big enough to make impossible to refit the plane up to the new standards (the fusselage was 50cm longer in the A5)...
But the A5-to-A6 upgrade consisted mainly on a new strenghtened wing...and given that the Fw190 wing was replaced as a WHOLE (it was built in a single piece), it was VERY easy to bring up an A5 to A6 standards...you change the wing, and voila...A6 for you.
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Oh yeah, gotto find some books with it!
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RRAM
" (the fusselage was 50cm longer in the A5)... "
This is a typo error??? 15.25cm should be the increase.
Agree from A-5 > A-6 is not much.;)
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I'm not talking about 'field conversion'. I never used the word 'field' at all in fact.
I am talking about 'battle damage rebuilds'. If you don't know what I was talking about...
Yes, I know very well the difference between the versions. And the 'fuselage extension' was indeed 'added' to heavily battle damaged A-4s to 'make' them later version radial engined Fw 190As.
We are talking about two different things here (field conversion vs. rebuilds). I don't understand how field conversion became part of the discussion however.
Mike/wulfie
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Well, he asked for 190 specs, and i found them. Thanks Verm for posting this image in the first place
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Originally posted by Heinkel
Well, he asked for 190 specs, and i found them. Thanks Verm for posting this image in the first place
Thanks, Heinkel.
Looks like the A-9 is somewhere between A-8 and D-9. If it still incorporates advantages that A-8 has over D-9 (guns, inst. turn, higher compression speed, better roll), it would be a very welcomed addition for any 190 type. Of course, if production numbers and introduction dates justify such an addition.
I know that I'd be very happy to try one out ;).
P.S.
thanks for keeping the thread on topic
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Note that last chart is for BMW 801F, not TS.
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If it was there in real life (as A9 was) and saw some kind of action, it's legitimate, no matter how many were produced :)
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Number of A-9's saw action if you believe Luftwaffe unit's strenght reports. Many units report having tens of A-9's at late -44.
For example: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg301.html
I./JG 301 alone had 63 A-9's at start of november -44. This number reduced to 11 during the month.
There were A-9's to a point where you can say almost whole gruppen were converted to A-9 :)
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Originally posted by Jochen
Number of A-9's saw action if you believe Luftwaffe unit's strenght reports. Many units report having tens of A-9's at late -44.
For example: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg301.html
I./JG 301 alone had 63 A-9's at start of november -44. This number reduced to 11 during the month.
There were A-9's to a point where you can say almost whole gruppen were converted to A-9 :)
Damn, bring A-9 to AH !