Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Turbot on May 27, 2002, 06:34:51 PM
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"The result was an airplane faster and more maneuverable than the P-51 Mustang and the P-47 Thunderbolt."
Source: National Air and Space Museum
http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/focke_ta152.htm
Does that sound like the 152 we have? Just found the comment curious.
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How much faster? What alt?
How much more maneuverable? At what alt and in what aspects?
Or?
Perhaps the AcesHigh TA152 *IS* faster and more maneuverable but you just don't where and under what circumstances it is.
Westy
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Then there's this:
"Between October 1944 and February 1945 when production ended, Focke-Wulf managed to roll 67 completed Ta 152 aircraft (H-0, H-1, and C-1 models) off the line but these fighters put on a disappointing show. Some aircraft were lost to engine fires while a variety of other engine problems and spares shortages grounded most of the fleet. By April 30, 1945, only two Ta 152C-1s remained operational. The Luftwaffe had grounded all H-models--an ignominious end for combat aircraft with great potential."
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I was there. I was in a P-47, along with another guy in a p-51. Turbot was turning that thing for all it was worth. If you had straightened out and just accelerated past us, you would have been OK. But you kept looping and looping and rolling. The TA did well even under those circumatances. I think i got it on film, will check it out.
edit, actually erg was alot higher and had a buch of smash, running you down was easy for him. This film (http://home.satx.rr.com/pointblank/films/turbot152.ZIP) tells the story.
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Originally posted by ra
Then there's this:
By April 30, 1945, only two Ta 152C-1s remained operational.
Yep that is 100% true! Good for you smartass! Exactly two of the two delivered Ta 152C1 were on strength with JG301 on April 30 1945.... Good! Yes, ra, you too can read!!!!
Donno what they gotta say about the Ta152H, though. The C1 model was was en entitely different aircraft with different fuselage, armament, engine a DB603, weapons, cockpit, the whole diddlying wing etc.....
But I'm sure a smart bellybutton like you knew that. :)
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I was there. I was in a P-47, along with another guy in a p-51. Turbot was turning that thing for all it was worth. If you had straightened out and just accelerated past us, you would have been OK. But you kept looping and looping and rolling. The TA did well even under those circumatances. I think i got it on film, will check it out.
edit, actually erg was alot higher and had a buch of smash, running you down was easy for him. This film (http://home.satx.rr.com/pointblank/films/turbot152.ZIP) tells the story.
Not talking about that instance at all - I was just goofing off. My comment is in a general sense, and in that spirit I stand by it :) The 152 certainly doesn't come off as characterised by the NASM article and others I have run across, not by anyone I ever asked heard of or seen anyway.
"Chief designer Kurt Tank was flight-testing a Ta 152H when he encountered a flight of roving Mustangs. He simply turned toward home, applied the MW 50 system to boost his engine, and gave his pursuers the slip.
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Even when it is free you see it flown little, and for good reason I think.
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i am sorry turbot, but you are generally wrong. The TA152 is not inferior to the P-47 or the P-51 in AH. (well in my mind it is, but I am a fan of the P-47)
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The Ta-152 is a Dora on steroids, better than any unperked plane.
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I remember one Ta152 flight I did where I came across a Knight P-51D attacking a Bishop Lanc (I fly Rook) at 19,000ft. I killed the Lanc and easily outran the P-51D. Flew awhile and encountered a Knight attack on a Rook base that included a Ta152, so I attacked the Ta152 (which was below me). After booming and zooming on this Knight Ta152 and not getting him my fuel and altitude were getting low, I was at about 7,000ft. A Knight Typhoon then tried to get me, so I dodged his first pass and then easily out ran him. I landed on fumes after flying for about 2-3 times as long as the Tempest or Spit XIV can.
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Yeah, I think he gave up on the fight long before I jumped in.
I have out maneuvered and out performed p51s and spit 9s up high in a ta 152. You just have to stay near 30k to be truly safe. up there some planes are faster but you maintain e and maneuver much more effectively. Just gotta look at the stats. Sadly, down low, where the plane was never supposed to fight, it behaves like a slug. It has no chance against most enemy aircraft, and the acceleration is horrid if you cant dive and keep diving.
I would like to see it accelerate faster, but I think overall its performance is good. Up high at 35k it is a real joy to ride. When the 1.10 is released the 152 will get a new lease on life. Up there it is king for cheap. Spit 9 and p51 will compete, but when your bnzing a 12 buff formation, I want at least a 30 mm.
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Grunherz a smart bellybutton like me can read, maybe a dumb bellybutton like you can't :)
It does mention the fate of the Ta-152H: they were grounded.
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the 152 is fine. its a bit slow at alt but still nothing beats it.
In the ct you never need more then 25% fuel in it. it will out manuver any of the planes in the ct except spits. It will out run a spit 14.
If your having problems its the way you fly it.
I am 10 and 3 in the ct fighting on the deck in the ct. My squaddie erlkonig flew in on the deck in main racking up like 6 kills vrs spits.
The 3 times I died 1 was from aa. The other a gv and 1 time a p51 sprayed me from d800. Im not as good as most thay fly the ct.
Its the pilot not the plane.
On a side note. This aint real life. If your flying the plane to some standard you read in some book your gonna get beat in any plane. Learn to fly the planes in AH the way they are modeled in ah.
Every sim models planes differently. Almost all will show where they "match the numbers" but each has a different feel and need to be flown as modeled. If you think that after a tour or 2 in ah you can jump in any plane and simply rely on its performance alone to keep you alive you are going to be in for a rough time.
If you think somethings wrong you need to test it and prove it. And back that up with solid evidence. Because you had a rough time in a 152 doesnt equate to a problem with the flight model.
Fly a 190 in wb3 like ya do in ah and you will see clearly what i mean about flying a plane the way its modelled in game. Or fly a 109f4 in il2 and compare that to the ah 109f4.
We all want things as close to real as possible but just because you read
"Chief designer Kurt Tank was flight-testing a Ta 152H when he encountered a flight of roving Mustangs. He simply turned toward home, applied the MW 50 system to boost his engine, and gave his pursuers the slip."
That doesnt mean the 51s saw him or were at full man chasing him. Theres a lot unsaid there to make any conclusion as to how a plane should be modelled.
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I just don't know how to respond to people who claim that the 365mph on the deck Ta152 is a slug other than to say that they're spoiled.
Try using any pre-1944 aircraft, and some 1944 aircraft.
I feel that the Fw190A-5 and Mossie (both around 340mph on the deck) are pretty damn fast. Things that do 360+ on the deck are stupidly fast, things that do 370+ are free kill machines, things that do 380+ are nightmares and the 262 has gone plaid.
The Ta152H-1 is sluggish at no altitude, it just isn't the absolute fastest thing at all altitudes. But hey, what do you expect for only 20 perk points?
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Hmmm dunno ... but the AH 152 looks a lot different than an actual 152 IMO ..
(http://www.cessna150-152.com/serialplanes/15283860.jpg)
that's a big screwup on teh art side and i demand it CHANGED ! N O W :D
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spit 14 is faster and climbs better at the deck. No way a ta152 is going to run from it at equal e. Heck the 14 could climb and still catch up.
Mustang is much faster, even at the deck
as well as the la7 and yak 9u. I dont think anybody flies any other allied in the ma do they?
As far as appreciating the slow planes, I love the hurri 1 and fly only in the CT, so when Bob shows up, I am mr. slow for a week. I also belong to a hellcat squad (cant even remember the last setup where we could fly em).
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(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/Screens/spit14speed.bmp)
spit 14 deck 362 - 365
(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/Screens/ta152hspeed.bmp)
152 deck 362 - 365
152 / spit 14
5k 380 / 395
10k 395 / 410
15k 408 / 405
20k 420 / 423
25k 430 / 440
spit 14 max 27k @ 447
ta152 as shown by chart 30k @ 453
all these speeds are with wep. However the 152 has significantly longer wep then the spit.
On the deck numerous times I have extended away from spit 14s.
You can go through and compare speeds with out wep but understand the 152 has a longer wep.
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Yeah I was looking sans wep. I think the problem is that someone was expecting the 152 to be uber like a spit 9/la7, which you can seriously screw up in and still get out of the fight. The 152 is an a5 on steroids with big weak wings. Just like the a5 if you get slow and low, you are dead. You cant argue with that can you? In the current setup my strat has been to take a spit or tempest and try to get you 262 and 152 drivers to come down and play. Havnt had a problem yet.
In 2 hours of play in the new setup...
ki ko kb di
Spitfire Mk XIV 8 0 0 0
Tempest 4 0 0 2
(I really only remember getting smacked once, but I did ditch in a field with no gas, maybe that is the second death in the tempest)
Now if you want to talk modeling, the spit 14 behaves like a ufo/god mode, but I aint complaining.
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Originally posted by Animal
The Ta-152 is a Dora on steroids, better than any unperked plane.
Maybe so, but if people generally beleived that wouldn't you expect to see more of them in the air? I don't think anyone fears the 152, when I am at the stick my 109f4 is something a heck of a lot more dangerous. Which I found interesting again when I ran across this:
The pilots who flew the Ta 152 H in battle were very pleased with it. The aircraft was well able to battle the P-51D "Mustang" as well as the British Hawker "Tempest", several of these allied aircraft falling to the guns of the Ta 152. Despite the fact the Ta 152 H was ment to combat high-altitude allied bombers, almost no missions of this type were flown by those units who operated the aircraft ( notably, III/JG 301 and Stab JG 301 ). The first mission undertaken by III/JG 301 on March 2, 1945 was to intercept U.S. bombers heading for the Bohlen chemical plant near Leuna. It ended when pilots of a group of Messerschmitt BF 109s mistook the new German aircraft for the enemy and engaged them. No losses were incured and the superior climbing and agility of the Ta 152 H allowed them to evade all of the "attackers". Following this, most of III/JG 301 was involved with battling allied fighters, not bombers...the final victims of the Ta 152s guns being Russian Yakolev Yak-9s during the final days of battle around Berlin on April 30, 1945.
I never flew a real Ta152H nobody much alive has (seeing as how there is only 1 left in the world) - but just doesn't seem to live up to the hype in AH as well as the most other planes do.
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I have to agree a little with you turbot. Another thing to remember is that ah does not model shoddy materials/engines.
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There aren't any planes that live up to the hype that surrounds them in AH. This includes the Spit, La7, N1K, P-51, 190D-9, etc...
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"There aren't any planes that live up to the hype that surrounds them in AH."
So we're right back to the age old question, "Is it the pilot or the plane?"
;)
Westy
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the 152 hardly has weak guns. Also rarely did ac fly around at full man. they "cruised". Any story you read about ac in ww2 needs to be put in context. You cant model planes based on "stories". You know little to nothing about the circumstances of those engagements. HT has to use documented data. If you find credible documented data that shows the 152 is modeled wrong then offer it.
Wilbuz may help you. :)
However the topic of your post is ah 152 vrs rl 152. If you fly planes in ah based on stories you have read then you will die. Fly the plane the way its modeled. We all want a real fm. If you have data that shows the fm is wrong then lets see it. I can find stories about all types of ac that portray them as "uber". Comparing the 152 to an a5 is a stretch.
You would have much more fun learning how to fly the ah 152 then pulling your hair out expecting the plane to perform to some story in a book.
just my 2 cents.
fyi people dont fly the 152 much because its perked. In general lw planesd in ah get used little compared to the allied birds.
So what you have is a small group of lw pilots that are going to fly the 152 anyway. The chog was used more then any other plane in ah. It was getting 20% of the kills. perked at 10 its numbers fell off drastically. So the fact that the 152 isnt flown that much in the main is no indication of its fm. Also it was very rare in ww2 just like ah. Just as it should be.
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speaking of real life vs ah. What is it with full throttle flying? Was it decided that over reving/overheating/destroying your engine was too much of a sacrifice to game play? I think it would be neat if we could actually 'throttle up and climb' cause we had to reduce manifold pressures to keep the engine in one piece. I think some more realism would come into the game then. As well as engine endurance issues. Anybody remember anything about HTC and this issue?
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Scan down through this thread for comments by Pyro on advanced engine management. Should give you an idea of what they're thinking.
Advanced Engine Management (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7126&highlight=throttle)
There's another one where he posted a factory durability report on a Pratt run at full throttle for many, many hours (days?).. with no damage. I can't find that one right now.
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my point about running full man has little to do with saying we need real eng management. I added that only to point out that most planes had cruise settings.
Eng management is a whole other thread of itself. il2 eng management is ok but itas hardly real from what i have read.
The point is just because you read it in a story doesnt mean you will get the same results in ah. Theres so much unsaid that to model an aircraft based on stories would be imposible.
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I believe I have to jump in here.
RA, what's your source? I have one of the few, and probarly the best specialized TA152 book on the market, trying to see if I can find anything about the TA152 H being taken out of action but for what I remember now, the last time I read it I found no such thing. There were however, as you say, only 2 TA152C's that survived the war, only two reached service at all as grunherzed said, although he could difinatly said it in a more mature and intelligent way... :rolleyes:
Wotan, the AH the charts seem to be wrong (no matter how freaking weird that sounds). Check my chart bellow, it's the old chart that shows speed all the way up to 50k, and read my tests bellow, could these speeds have improved because of 25% fuel load?
Now, check speed at 41.000 feet, that was where the TA152H-1 had its top speed, using GM1 power boost, water Methanol was held in the wings.
The AH speed charts show exactly 450 Mph. I did a test in AH, using 25% fuel only, I dove from 50k to 41k, used WEP for 10 minutes and then checked speed in the new film viewer, speed that was reached was 460mph. Not what the AH charts say, faster, which is GOOD.
What is more important is that its max speed is reached nearly 10k below the alt of what it was in real life, and great disadvantage in high alt performance.
Check speed at 31k, shows about 460, which is very right from my test where I, after 10 minutes WEP and dive from 40k had a speed of 461mph.
Weird huh? Speed is the same at 41k aswell as 31k...
The TA152 is lovely in AH.
At low alt it's still good and probarly as it should be, hold E great, good guns, fairly good speed and very good acceleration. Turns well too. It can challange most planes, the problem is the perk icon, as with all planes, brings out the worst of people ;)
I have charts with most other TA152's then the H-1, inlcuding DB equiped ones (belive me, you non LW flying people do NOT want a DB equiped TA in AH :D ).
If I only had somewhere to upload images too I could post some charts.
I will make a separate thread about the TA152, post engines and some stuff and maybe we can get a real "is it actually wrong?" discussion going
I'll also post Kurt Tanks own words about the "Attack of the P51's" when he had just taken off, check under General Discussion soon.
Btw, anyone know a place where I can upload images and films?
As soon as I have some kind of webspace I can get started with charts...
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I hope I succeeded in giving you my thoughts as I think them. I try not to say it is porked as I have shown no evidence of it, if it is porked, it's most likely only the 30k+ performance that is affected, the max speed was in real life achived at 41.000 feet, when in AH, it is reached at 31.000, quite a big difference but might not matter much in AH.
Please don't start screaming about me to show proof, because I haven't said it is porked, nor will I say it is porked, staying open minded on this from now on.
All
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Will make some more posts in here...
Here's a little snip of text from the book "Focke Wulf TA152 The Story of the Luftwaffes's Late-War, High-Altitude Fighter." By "Dieter Harmann".
The name of the book might be somewhat wrong since not all TA152's were high-altitude fighters.
I know Karnak has got this book aswell, so if some of you think I am lying to prove anything, just ask him and I am sure he'll set you straight :)
Chapter "The High-Altitude Power Plants of the Ta 152", page 129.
Not gonna type everything just "scrolling down" a little bit.
"In order to avoid thermal overheating the engine required an intercooler, and in contrast to the FW 190 D this could be accomodated in the airframe of the Ta 152 H. At the same time output could be increased further through the injection of MW 50 and GM 1. Using Mw 50 the Ta 152 H-1 could reach 749 kph ("Wilbus notes: 749 kilometers/h = 465.4070mph") at an altitude of 9,500 meters ("Wilbus Notes: 9,5km = 31167,9790 feet") and with GM 1, 760 kph at 12,500 meters Wilbus Notes: 12,5km = 41010,4987 feet and Speed: 760 kilometers/h = 472,2421 mph") . But in order to achieve these performances the engine had to be made fully ready
for production."
Ok, now you say the Engine wasn't made fully ready, that is both true and untrue. The TA152 H-0 used the Jumo 213 E-0 Engine, this was NOT fully ready for it and could not use MW 50 nor GM 1 boost.
The TA 152 H-1 used the Jumo 213E-1 engine which WAS made fully ready and worked as it should, it ran both MW 50 and GM 1 boosts.
If you want me to type that too I will.
There was also a Junkers equipement set that increased the Horsepower further with about 150 hp, it was installed both in the 190 D and TA152 H-1 with great success, don't have much info about that one though.
Now I'll take a brake :)
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Thanks for info Wilbuz - pls do add the Kurt Tank vs. the p51 story when you can - I can't find the full story on the web again.
(I also need to try 152 with less than full fuel load - used to doing that in 109 and 190)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
I believe I have to jump in here.
RA, what's your source? I have one of the few, and probarly the best specialized TA152 book on the market, trying to see if I can find anything about the TA152 H being taken out of action but for what I remember now, the last time I read it I found no such thing.
He quotes the Smithsonian NASM website. Since they have the only Ta-152 in the world, I trust them more than your coloring books.
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the kurt tank story is really a fun read. You will of course never read a story by 51 pilots that talks about being left in a cloud of exhaust smoke by any 190.. the most they ever said about the 152 (those who ever even seen one flyuing) was "that long nosed 190". Never heard any allied pilot sound very impressed.
Is grunhertz from spain?
lazs
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Then my Coloring Books? What have you been smoking? You know nothing about me, my books, the book it self, the author, the plane and you come in here making stupid accusations of the book coloring a nice little plane 100% better then it actually was?
I've read the NASM info and it's wrong on several places, you can keep reading that 2 page info if you want to, those of us who actually do som research know alot more about it then you do OBVIOUSLY.
Second, they own a TA152, SO WHAT? Does it fly? No, has it been flown since the war? Uhmm, once again NO.
You'd be surpised what you learn from Books montezuma, maybe you should try reading one or two :)
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This Story is true though Laz, guessing it was a TA152 with a DB engine (GUESSING). Had a top speed of 380-390 mph at the deck.
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I might add to the TA152 in AH, the H-1, as in AH used wing tanks. Gave it an internal range greater then that of the P51D. in AH it's got about 20% more time in the air on internal then the P51D. My usual fuel load is 75% + DT.
When you fly it, work the fuel manually, use left and right wing tanks first down to about 15-20%. Then put it on auto.
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Kurt Tanks story about the TA152 flight where he was Jumped by 2 P51's.
His own words as shown in the book "Focke Wulf Fw 190 in Combat" by "Alfred Price".
'On one occasion during the closing stages of the war I was flying a Ta 152. I had just taken off from Lagenhagen near Hanover, on my way to a conference at Cottbus. Suddenly the control tower called me and said there were, "Zwei Indiana über dem Gartenzaun" - two enemy fighters over the airfield. This placed me in a difficult position because, anxious to remain a "civilian", I never flew with loaded guns. One could hardly expect the pilots of the two Mustangs to know that, however, and it is doubtful wether they would have acted any differently if they had known. As they came boring down after me I rammed open the throttle and switched in water methanol injection. My aircraft surged forwards, accelerating rapidly. The Mustangs' closing speed swiftly fell to zero, then they diminished in size until they were mere specks in the distance. I have often wondered what those American pilots thought had happaned to their "sitting duck".'
The Ta 152 Mr.Tank flew was armed but not loaded, so it was slightly lighter then a combat loaded Ta 152.
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for the main i take 50 and a dt.
in the ct tho 25% normally 50 if I am flying cross channel the long way.
I am not sure which 152h we have in ah. We have the wing tanks so that would point to the h-1. But ????
Burn you wing fuel off first as wilbuz stated.
fyi last main 152 sortie i flew me and a squaddie uppped to intercept an hq raid. The time we got to alt the buffs were rtb but several of their jug escorts decided to attack cmorris and i. They jugs had 4 k on us. We turned our 6 to the high cons leveled and hit wep. We went into a line abreast formation and as the 1st jug dove in cmorris went right i went left. Cmorris drug the jug all the way round giving me a perfect canopy shot. 1 3cm Rheinmetal Biscuit shoved right down his throat was enough to scare his 2 jug buddies off. I typed over channel 1 "Mess with the bull get the horns" to try and get his buddies to turn round and engage. well 1 jug did he turned round headed right at us hi 12. He had about 4k on us but dove for speed coming out of his turn. As we passed under he was 3k above. He did a split esse and dropped in on cmorris who was form d500 at my 5 o'clock. We did a cross over turn me going right cmorris left again the jug follows. I miss the shot in the orange glow of sundown. But do a high yo yo and come round on the jug. just as hes closing on cmorris, cmorris breaks left hard the jug cant follow and goes up. By this time i was ready for it. He went vert but i had speed and i cut his climb off. As he realizes hes .05 sec from death I bet he thought this isnt the jug i read about in all them books. Then the rheimetal shreds him.
His other jug buddy never even looked back 27k he noses down op direction to the nearest friendly base. I type on channel "come get ya some of these horns".
I found a p38 on the deck a few min later and killed him as well. By then it was dark so I rtb'd.
Its extremely fun to fly.
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Fun to fly it is Wotan :)
Btw, both the Wing tanks and WEP proves that it is an H-1.
The H-0 had a Jumo 213 E engine, it couldn't use MW 50 nor GM 1 so it had no WEP.
It's definatly a H-1 we have, I am starting to think however, that the GM 1 Boost has not been modelled as it only works above 35k or so.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
I've read the NASM info and it's wrong on several places, you can keep reading that 2 page info if you want to, those of us who actually do som research know alot more about it then you do OBVIOUSLY.
Second, they own a TA152, SO WHAT? Does it fly? No, has it been flown since the war? Uhmm, once again NO.
The NASM says their Ta-152 was evaluated at Wright Field after it was brought back to the US. Do any of your coloring books have a copy of that test? Might be a useful thing to have to support your endless and pointless whining about the thing.
What is so unbelievable about untested, poorly built, and unsupplied Ta-152Hs being grounded in April 1945? If you read closely, your coloring books might mention that Germany was having some problems around that time.
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Monetzuma sorry to say but rarely have I met someone with your ignorance and lack of understanding, almost near stupidity that thinks he knows it all from reading 2 pages about something, if you even had the slightest clue of what I am talking about you wouldn't even post anything, just back away silent and leave us to think that you still know some things.
Someone once said something in style with 'it's sometimes better to keep your mouth closed and be believed dumb, rather then open it and remove all doubts', I know it wasn't exact like that but you may wanna think about it for a while.
In no way do I know everything about the Ta 152, I probarly never will since much of the facts have been lost, however, I know quite a few things about it.
As for the TA152, do you the US pilots who had no experience in the plane, who flew with bad and old parts had the same performance as the germans did?
Do you have any CHARTS that proves the TA152 to be as it is in AH, that is fastest alt 10k lower then it was in real life?
Till you do, don't come here and blaim me for reading coloring books by lying authors, you not only humiliate me but also the Authors who's spent countless years reading and researching about this subject.
Charts from me are coming, but as you know, I've probarly faked them aswell :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Monetzuma... blah blah blah
As for the TA152, do you the US pilots who had no experience in the plane, who flew with bad and old parts had the same performance as the germans did?
Do you have any CHARTS that proves the TA152 to be as it is in AH, that is fastest alt 10k lower then it was in real life?
Till you do, don't come here and blaim me for reading coloring books by lying authors, you not only humiliate me but also the Authors who's spent countless years reading and researching about this subject.
According to you, the NASM is wrong, the USAAF was wrong, and HTC is wrong. To counter these bad sources, you have provided us with.. NOTHING.
In case you think you can dig your way out of this hole, here is your challenge:
1. Show documentation that the AH Ta-152 model has errors.
2. Prove that Ta-152Hs were flying after April 1945.
3. Explain how the US tests of the Ta-152 (the results of which are unknown to you) were wrong because the pilot couldn't fly the plane and it was broken.
This could be tough.
But I think that you, as the one true bearer of the truth of the glory of the Ta-152 and armed with your library of luftwaffe fan fiction, can do it.
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There was hardly a Luftwaffe at all after April 45 so that's apretty stupid statement, as all your other ones.
Documentation coming. Staga will help me with webspace.
US tests unknown to me? Are theý known to you considering you're a one page Ta152 info wonder that knows everything about it?
The tests US made with them had "old" engines, most of them time no maintance had been made except when the planes were still in germany, US did take some german engineers back to US though.
The difference between you and me is that I know what I am talking about whiel you, have read a single page about the Ta152 on a single homepage by a Museum that has got a Ta152 that's consists of about 200 different parts instead of one piece.
Yeah I am saying NASM are wrong on their fatcs.
Like I've said before, you known nothing about me, the books I've read or the authors, to come and make stupid statements about the books and Authors being wrong after 10+ years of digging in both German war time and US war time achives you just prove your stupidity and thus you've lost any respect I possibly ever had for you.
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Can someone post the story of Reschke eating a couple tempests in his 152 as well? :) GOd I love that plane just wish it had greater deck speed then i would be happy. :)
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Wilbus, whatever you find out about Ta, accept this tip: dont loose a single second of your time with Montezuma.
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No kidding Mandoble. What a joke.
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Perk the 152!!!
-math
Oh wait, nm, it already is.
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Yup Mandoble thanks for the tip, don't know why I let a jerk like that get to me.
Everybody else! I'll tell you soon some of the things I have :)
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Heya Wilbus,
What book are you referencing? I have one that covers Kurt Tank's work, but it isn't very specific on the Ta152.
I don't know about you guys, but I've found the Ta152H-1 in AH to be a very nice fighter. I like it much more than the F4U-4 or Tempest. The Spit XIV nice as well and the Me262 is the god fighter of AH.
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No one will ever be able to argue about the 262, it IS the God when it comes to most things. Untouchable and a killer.
Ta152 very very nice :)
Karnak, thought you had the book, must have misstaken though, what is the book you have, could I please have name and ISBN?
This is the one I am refering to, it's allso THE Ta152 book.
"Focke Wulf TA152 The Story of the Luftwaffes's Late-War, High-Altitude Fighter." By "Dieter Harmann".
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Donno what they gotta say about the Ta152H, though.
This: The Luftwaffe had grounded all H-models--an ignominious end for combat aircraft with great potential.
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Funked, NO Ta152 H's were grounded before the end of the war.
Specially not because of bad parts or anything else.
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Kurt Tank invented the Ta 152.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Wilbus, whatever you find out about Ta, accept this tip: dont loose a single second of your time with Montezuma.
Maybe you guys should start a support group?
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Maybe you guys should start a support group?
Maybe you should start having a life :)
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^
| are you our RAM or another RAM ?
if yes what's up Javier ?
I havn't seen you in the MA and in the BBS lately ...
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Originally posted by straffo
^
| are you our RAM or another RAM ?
if yes what's up Javier ?
I havn't seen you in the MA and in the BBS lately ...
I'm the usual Ram, straffo :)...I have a MA account (I -rarely- fly as SBM) and take a peek at the forums now and then...just happens I'm simply not that active anymore :)
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cc that :)
Your still in Bilbao ?
I'm trying to convince my wife to go there for the holliday but I will likely fail as usual :D
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Originally posted by straffo
cc that :)
Your still in Bilbao ?
I'm trying to convince my wife to go there for the holliday but I will likely fail as usual :D
hehehe yep, I'm still here :)
Tell her that this zone is worth a visit!...not just because its beauty (also) ,or because the guggenheim (that too, lol)....but because here you can know what does "GOOD FOOD" mean -hehehehe-:D
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Ram, get yer sorry but in the arenas now! We *cough* miss you there :)
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Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggg ggggggggggggg :)
Maybe we should have a duel now ;)
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I was grounded once for sassin' my momma.
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Just curious Wilbus. How many production Ta152H-1s were produced and delivered?
Throw out the service testing,pre-production H-0s. They wouldn't have been in squadron service. I'm talking production H-1s.
of the 67 Ta152s, how many were delivered to squadrons?
My source says 10 H-1s delivered. Talk about a non factor.
And what do you mean about the US tested 152s having 'old engines?" Seems to me the mandate for Watson's Whizzers and company was to get the best surviving aircraft for testing. That would include replacement engines etc. And the maint on the tested birds would have been better then wartime conditions would it not? Also fuel would have been better? If anything performance during testing would not have reflected operational performance because of this? You also make it sound like there would have been no documenation or that somehow the maint on a German aircraft would have been beyond the best maint folks the US had?
Dan
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God. For a plane with 10 production copies you'd think people would forget about it yet I have been seeing this exact thread for 13 years now.
DD
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P-39!!
lol..... :) Hi DD.
Westy
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But DD.. but.. but.. but......
"Ve kuld haf vun ze var if only.......... IF only.... IF ONLY... IF ONLY.......
vell, ve kuld haf VUN!"
It won't ever stop.
Sorta reminds me of the Confederate license plate.. you know, the "Heck NO! I ain't fergettin!"
:D
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Wilbuz,
My book is
The History of German Aviation
Kurt Tank
Fockewulf's Designer and Test Pilot
by Wolfgang Wagner.
Guppy,
My sources indicate that as many as 150 H series Ta152s were built before the Russiand captured the Cottbus Works where they were built.
Here is an interesting section from my book:
There are so many different claims regarding the number of Ta 152s actually built that it's difficult to arrive at a definitive figure. It is a known fact that the Ta 152A was never built. Only a few of the Ta 152B and C series were produced.
It was a different matter with the H series, despite the fact that construction documentation was not available until March 1944. In a letter dated 18 July 1944 Oberst Petersen, commander of the Rechlin test center, expressed concern at the overly hasty introduction of the Ta 152. He saw danger for the H-series in the program's accelerated tempo. The fact that the Ta 152 production began with the H-series and not with an A, B and C version, as was normal, was cause for worry in and of itself.
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Hey everyone:)
Somebody sprinkle some holy water on the Ta-152 and maybe it will stay dead this time. Or maybe just let the ones who want it mount them on cinder block in their front yard.....would be a realistic pose for a Ta-152 at that...........
DD
I wish I could spell.......
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I'll check the numbers a lil later, too tired for it now.
Watsons wizzers did indeed maintain the engines good, should have expressed my self in a different matter.
When, however, they tested the TA152, they never used the boosts (MW 50 and GM1), they neither tested it at very high alt since they were happy with what they had. I can type it later aswell with the exact words from the book.
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No TA152 A's were produced even though the A series was Fully ready for produtcion (maybe even more so then the H's), for some reason the RLM decided to scrap the A project (thus they lost a valuable year of the introduction of a good high alt fighter).