Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 2Late4U on May 29, 2002, 06:26:20 PM
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Rotating squads.
In an effort to slow down the roller coaster country numbers, HT in chat today announced that switching countries when in a squad may be disabled in the future. While no definite yes/no was given, and no timeframe provided, this would be a major change with some fairly large effects.
On the plus side, we would be less likely to see countries go from 30% of the player population to 70% overnight. It would also encourage country loyalty, something that to this point has been lacking.
On the down side, it means that those in squads may never get to fly with 2/3 of the community, chatting and making frendships being limited to one country.
I feel that a comprimise may be a better solution, with either a hard cap of 40% (or whatever) of total squad membership per any given country, or a system where rotation must be submited as a request and then granted based on other squads rotaing in the other direction
comments?
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i disagree with the concept... i hop around to the country with the least nbrs, and believe me, with locked squads there will still be an imbalance in nbrs and the 2 on 1 country gangbanging.
you *can't* legislate how people play the game, it simply doesn't work...
lamers are as lamers do...
"it's the PEOPLE, stupid!"
:mad:
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Originally posted by 2Late4U
Rotating squads.
On the down side, it means that those in squads may never get to fly with 2/3 of the community, chatting and making frendships being limited to one country.
I feel that a comprimise may be a better solution, with either a hard cap of 40% (or whatever) of total squad membership per any given country, or a system where rotation must be submited as a request and then granted based on other squads rotaing in the other direction
comments?
My thoughts also.
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That would be unwise.
Wab
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I am going to assume this has to be a troll, surely HT wouldnt consider such a limiting rule.
**MOL** rotates every 2 months, helps keep things fresh and I think helps provide balance.
dago
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Originally posted by Dago
I am going to assume this has to be a troll, surely HT wouldnt consider such a limiting rule.
**MOL** rotates every 2 months, helps keep things fresh and I think helps provide balance.
dago
Saw him say it with my own eyes boss..let's hope he reads this thread and uses some of the suggestions.
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This is going to kill one of the good features in AH (compared to AW). Not a good solution, IMHO.
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There are different countries?
Hooligan
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Originally posted by 2Late4U
Rotating squads.
In an effort to slow down the roller coaster country numbers, HT in chat today announced that switching countries when in a squad may be disabled in the future.
That's how it was in Air Warrior. If you wanted to switch countries, you had to either leave or disband the squadron and reform/rejoin in the new country. Didn't stop squads from switching countries though.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by akak
That's how it was in Air Warrior. If you wanted to switch countries, you had to either leave or disband the squadron and reform/rejoin in the new country. Didn't stop squads from switching countries though.
Yes, Akak, This was the case in AW. However, one feature in AH is that a member can be across the border, while in AW that was not the case. Should this feature be disallowed now for the sake of controlling the influx of squads changing sides? It would be a pity IMHO.
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Restrictions and limitations may not necessarly mean a squad is stuck at a single country rest of its existence. Maybe HT's considering something simular to the pre-tour 'registration' concept I posted before.
The key to my concept was balancing the numbers before a new tour starts, and squad rotations or selection of countries might be limited or 'encouraged in a certain direction.' For instance, if squads with average 10~20 pilots on-line registers to the Bish near the end of tour 28, smaller squads with 4~5 pilots might be limited or encouraged to join either the Rooks or the Knits in a 'registration'. With the start of tour 29, the 20 man squad would stay Bish, while the other smaller squads would be spread out to the other countries so there is no integration of many squads in a single country that destroys numbers balance.
.. anyhow, it's up to HT to decide.
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Terrible idea IMO. I hop countries all the time, and it's nice to be able to talk to my squaddies to find out where they're flying, for which country, and decide what to do with my evening accordingly. Even if I'm flying for a different country and am nowhere near my other squadmates, it's nice to be able to shoot the bull with them in a nice, private manner over the squad channel. These are my friends from all over the country, after all, and it's nice to find out how things are going for them. The ability to switch sides and still maintain squad ties is one of the features that I've enjoyed the most in AH. I hated how AW did it.
Implementing this rule would not keep me from switching sides, but it would force me to quit my squad and forego (or at least make much more difficult) this communication. I fear that it would not only not eliminate side switching, but it would also have a chilling effect on some aspects of community building.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I do not think this is a good idea, I was thinking of signing up for MA and maybe join a squad, but not if they add this feature. I'd like to be able to fly Knights a little and if rooks start dyin ill join rooks etc. or maybe a friend or some1 is on the other team?
All this would do IMO is greatly discourage people from being in squads...
Something should reward being loyal to 1 country, but not restrict a person to only that country.
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Nothing wrong with squad players being in two or three different countries while playing. Whenever that is the case though, I'd like to see the "red text" squad coms disabled between countries to discourage a flanking hit by a coordinating squad on a "target" country from different countries. Not saying anyone is doing this, but if a squad decided to do it, they could, the way it is now using the squad channel. Haven't tested it, but does anyone know whether voice is enabled between countries?
I think it's a bad idea to complicate squadron business. Being in a squadron is a serious emotional investment for most of us. You can form a pretty tight bond in a game like AH. That's one reason I'm not in a squad any longer. It's too heart-breaking.*
Les
* I still enjoy the game and fly with my friends, whether they are former squad-mates or not.
:)
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As long as any solution does not mean the possibility of squads being split over two different countries there won't be a problem. HT said he was considering it so lets not get our panties all bunched just yet. It's not like HT is a little green at this online flight sim game and we have to trust them to weigh up all the options which they have in the past. Chill out guys, go fly and enjoy yourselves.
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This is based on the assumption that it's actually squads upsetting the numbers.
I'd venture to guess it's a) influx of newbies to bish due to it being the default country, b) people getting bored of getting gang banged and leaving, c) people hopping countries because they are getting gang banged and want easier kills, d) people WANT to be on the biggest side, and e) squads do occasionally jump around- but this is the least of the problems.
Rather- modify the "default login" to alternate every 3 hours or day... or when they create an account give them a random country assignment(based on country population overall- and placing them in the lowest populated country) that they must stick with for 12 hours then they can change... but they can't change to a country that has more than 40% of the total players online.
The solution isn't as simple as limiting side switching, or sign up at the beginning of the month to fly for a side (you fly for one side all month? good for you... not everyone wants to though... especially when they are looking for a good fight... not a bunch of friendlies gang banging some poor soul).
-SW
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"rotation must be submited as a request and then granted based on other squads rotating in the other direction"
That would work for me.
Westy
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i did not know squad members could be in different countries and talk on private squad channel, wonder what they talk about, work , weather, where the CV is , what missions are being launched, how much fun spying is.
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Originally posted by 2Late4U
In an effort to slow down the roller coaster country numbers, HT in chat today announced that switching countries when in a squad may be disabled in the future. While no definite yes/no was given, and no timeframe provided, this would be a major change with some fairly large effects.
IMHO this would be the best thing that's happened to AH in a long time. Some restrictions on squad country changes would go a long ways to stop squads from coordinating migrations so they can stack the numbers (if you believe this doesn't happen look again).
I'm sure we'll see a lot of post from old timers (some of whom happen to be a part of the problem) about how unfair blah blah blah
225 vs 48 is no fun anyway you look at it.
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Originally posted by K West
"rotation must be submited as a request and then granted based on other squads rotating in the other direction"
That would work for me.
Westy
Sounds like a very fair solution to me.
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Originally posted by cajun
I do not think this is a good idea, I was thinking of signing up for MA and maybe join a squad, but not if they add this feature. I'd like to be able to fly Knights a little and if rooks start dyin ill join rooks etc. or maybe a friend or some1 is on the other team?
All this would do IMO is greatly discourage people from being in squads...
Something should reward being loyal to 1 country, but not restrict a person to only that country.
The last line above is the key. It is generally better to influence behavior than it is to legislate it. The former is voluntary, while the latter is forced and therefore a possible source of contention and resentment. The key is to find the right "carrot" to use. You don't want to mess with HTC's business model, so offering any kind of discount for staying with one country is out of the question. On the otherhand, perhaps some kind of military rank system within a country, such as WWIIOL uses, would provide a subtle, pychological incentive. Maybe send out tour ribbons for staying with the same country for an entire tour, too. These are fairly inexpensive, and would be kind of cool to wear to the Con. It would bring an element of role-playing to the game. Some would not care, but if even 50% do it would bring a favorable shift to the side-balance effort.
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Control is an illusion, HT.
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This idea smells like WWIIO!
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Workaround - Disband the squad. Everyone hops country, now as independent. Reform the squad in new country. Takes a bit of effort, but not too much.
I like squads that rotate, because when they come to Knights, I get to fly with them for a tour or so. Last night was the first time I've ever gotten to fly in a furball with Lazs and Apache in green, the latter of whom threw out a Check 6 that saved my butt. I actually hope these guys stay Knight for awhile, BKs are good to have in a furball.
I also like staying Knight because of the "permanent" Knight squads. I like having the MAG-33 guys around to throw up some missions, for example, and I know if I see Wotan or AG (sachs) near me, I can count on them.
I hope HT changes his mind. As much as I like having the same people I know I can count on in my country, I also like flying with the rotating squads when they come through Knitlandia for a tour.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
it's nice to be able to talk to my squaddies
-- Todd/Leviathn
Had not considered the spying opportunities. This is not a good feature.
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Originally posted by Turbot
Had not considered the spying opportunities. This is not a good feature.
This can be done without squad communications. Lev just leaves the squad, and hops over to another country. He and his squaddies tune a text chan (or VOX chan) to 201-299. Cross country communications.
I hear the MAW know about this one... :D
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Originally posted by Turbot
Had not considered the spying opportunities. This is not a good feature.
LOL You assume that my squad:
1) Cares about "winning" the war enough to spy.
2) Is organized enough to do something about it.
3) Is good enough to accomplish organized objectives.
We are none of the above. We view AH like a game of pick-up basketball in the neighborhood. Everyone's friends with everyone else, regardless of whether or you're shirts or skins this time out. I'd hate to have that sort of interaction curtailed. It's not a "strategy" issue at all.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Nifty
This can be done without squad communications. Lev just leaves the squad, and hops over to another country. He and his squaddies tune a text chan (or VOX chan) to 201-299. Cross country communications.
If I wanted everyone to be able to hear what I'm saying, I'd write it on Channel 1. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You can also tune to indvidual players and talk to them, whether they are on your side or not.
But should this be taken away for country "safety"? No... a lotta guys don't wanna use ch1 to talk to one other person.
-SW
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>Had not considered the spying opportunities. This is not a good
feature.
They could always communicate via RogerWilco, ICQ, IRC, AIM, emails...
There is no way to stop them if they want to do that.
Frankly, given the level of organization, there usually isn't that much for someone to spy on. ;)
Wab
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Bad idea, real bad.
How could we switch to the low country then?
And all this talk of spying? That the sort of rubbish that "wars", "countries" and "winning the war" lead to.
Why on earth ressurect on of AW's really bad points?
Country loyalty? Don't make me laugh.
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rotation must be submited as a request and then granted based on other squads rotating in the other direction
I would forsee a large squad wanting to change countries, but having to wait weeks for several other squads (or one other big squad) to want to change to balance the equation. It would become a thing where you request a change and it takes so long, that the reason for the change has gone. Nobody would change. IMHO, if this was put in place, they might as well forbid movement. The result would be the same.
The last line above is the key. It is generally better to influence behavior than it is to legislate it. The former is voluntary, while the latter is forced and therefore a possible source of contention and resentment. The key is to find the right "carrot" to use. You don't want to mess with HTC's business model, so offering any kind of discount for staying with one country is out of the question. On the otherhand, perhaps some kind of military rank system within a country, such as WWIIOL uses, would provide a subtle, pychological incentive. Maybe send out tour ribbons for staying with the same country for an entire tour, too. These are fairly inexpensive, and would be kind of cool to wear to the Con. It would bring an element of role-playing to the game. Some would not care, but if even 50% do it would bring a favorable shift to the side-balance effort.
I think a better disinsentive to changing sides would be perk point penalties. When a person changes sides they only get 75% perk points for the next week. The penalties should stack, so if you change sides twice in one night, you would then only be getting about 56% of the normal perk points. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you had to be on a country for 12 hours before the reset to get the points. If that's not the rule, then put that in.
The benefit of this would be that the people who are jumping ship and going to the biggest country to get the reset, would be shooting themselves in the foot. The reset means bragging rights, but it also means perk points. Reduce those perk points and you reduce the incentive. The types of people who switch to the outnumbered country are generally the people who couldn't care less about perk points, so it would not be a disincentive to them.
As far as squads changing sides, if a squad is so lame that they change sides just to get on the side with the numbers, then they probably care about their rank/scores. Rank/Score squads based upon country. If a squad flies for half the tour with Bish, the switches to Rooks, their scores while with each country would only apply to their rank/score with that country. Their rank in each country would be half of what it would be if they had stayed in one country because they are only in that country for half of the tour. Again, the squads that don't care about rank, aren't going to be the squads switching sides to join the country with the numbers.
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so let's say you 'balance' the countries at the beginning of a tour...
you still have flux depending on who is logged in at a given time.
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Bad idea HT. Hope ya don't doit. I still say if you want people to flock to the country with lowest numbers you have to use a carrot, not a stick. Give them perks or perk planes without the perk cost or a higher score per kill or ANYTHING but more rules and regulations!
LLB OUTSKI!!!!!!!!!!