Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Angus on May 30, 2002, 12:16:01 PM
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So, Borodas inflammable thread is closed, muhahahaha.
Well, it had a wee bit too many topics in it.
So here is one thing I mentioned there, only to be blamed of being a Nazi symphatiser:mad:
Last year I saw a documentary on a planned russian invation of Germany, supposed to be executed in the spring of 1942. The main source were former TOP SECRET papers retrieved from recently opened russian archives, but there were also interviews with people that had studied this quite well, and local people in Poland that lived at the places where the Red army started stockpiling their equipment.
I do not belive Boroda and such, when it is simply statet this is roadkill, propoganda and fake. Well, there are also people that state that the earth is flat, and other theories are roadkill!
So, I was wondering if some of you historians out there have any more knowledge of this. There will be flames, of course, but hopefully also some information.
I am simply curious about this.
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Some russians are still brain washed.
Even the dutch where guilty on warcrimes killing villages in indonesia after the war.
No country is innocent and russia sure wasn't
Saw documentary about russian mass graves one eroded and lotsa corpses where found in the river.
A lot off things where cept secret and sometimes discovered on this horrible way.
Denying would be very foolish
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It's mentioned in several books on Stalin - there are apparently sources supporting the theory.
Check out Edvard Radzinsky's 'Stalin' - it has a fairly detailed description of the plan and the evidence supporting its existance.
Tee book also has information on Stalin's ideas about open war with the US (curtailed by his timely death).
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Well, the possible date when USSR could have finished rearming could be mid-1942.
But you'll never find any documents proving that what you call "agression" (and I could probably call "liberation") was planned. I will not say that it wasn't planned - i don't know. It could be. But any documents are either destroyed or simply don't exist (in case it wasn't).
Yes, some Russians are brainwashed. In fact - you can't find a nation that reached industrial level where at least some people are not :(
I have already said it many times that I don't think Russia is innocent. War is war... :(
Sorry for my flames and thanks to Pyro.
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russians invade...thats about as beleivable as this
in 1944 canada was thinking about joining the axis side
they had a secret weapon that would make them invinsible to americans...they planned to incade using SNOWBALSS...LOL
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Dowding, Radzinskiy is an old-style Soviet "social-realistic" playwrite. His plays were suggested for provincial theatres and all 100% followed the Party line, approved by Party authorities. His "historical" books are a mixture of fiction and popular history. Here he is popular mostly for his TV programms where he describes some historical personalities or events "for dummies". He has a talent to make things interesting, but nothing more... Too many fantasies. But he's a good example of how a literary talent can switch from one field to another and earn money and popularity. Another weird figure of our crazy time.
Stalin is a tragic and monumental figure in Russian history. I never saw any book about him that was written without any emotions. Usually there are two extremes: "bloody butcher" and "the father of the nation". I try to read the books from both trends and try to form my own understanding. The only thing that I am sure is that he "inherited a country with a plowshare, and left it with an H-bomb". Sir Winston was an extremely wise man.
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Boroda, by "liberation" you mean people been liberated from their life?
Angus, those plans are out there. I wish that they could be found. It would be interesting history-wise.
julle
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Originally posted by Dowding
Check out Edvard Radzinsky's 'Stalin' - it has a fairly detailed description of the plan and the evidence supporting its existance.
Edvard Radzinsky's checked. In one archive there is no record, that the person on a name "Edvard Radzinsky's" to take though one document for last five years. He not the historian.
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Originally posted by julle
Angus, those plans are out there. I wish that they could be found. It would be interesting history-wise.
julle
The Russian archives are open (even a sexual - problem the fantastic writer Beevor there worked). And the plans for a case of war with Germany too are published. But in west they nobody to interest, because in these plans there is no aggression. It does not enter into a stereotype of average western inhabitant, at which the brains are washed out, which consider Russian can only attack.
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1939?! EH?! :confused:
Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuenia, POLAND...EH?!EH!?EH?! :confused:
NO AGRESSION?! NO ATTACKING?! :rolleyes:
Next U will say that the Russain paramilitary partisans attacked MILITARY targets near the Finnish boarder?! And they DID NOT attack small villages killing women and children, even infants?! ROLFMAO!!
julle
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Though be cried, but that that you to write there is an ordinary propagation. A history it not the collection Comics. All is much more complex. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuenia voluntary have come in structure USSR. You can assert, that it is aggression, but this your personal opinion. The opinion of all states, that it it was lawful. If you it is bad to know a history, I can inform, that these states till 1917 in a nature did not exist.
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Originally posted by --am--
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuenia voluntary have come in structure USSR. You can assert, that it is aggression, but this your personal opinion. .
This is not even fun anymore. Its plain scary... I never thought I'd see Soviet 1940-propaganda advocated in the 21st century like this. Talk about revisionist...
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This MUST be a flame bait?! :D
julle
(http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers/kuvat/Uberfinns-Logo.gif)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
see Soviet 1940-propaganda advocated in the 21st century like this. Talk about revisionist...
Revisionist this denying of the international contracts and documents. It in what you are engaged. I can remind, that personally you have declared, that the German army did not make any crimes. I to result you the proof. You have broken off.
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--am-- there was NOTHING voluntary in the occupying of the Baltic and ½ of Poland. They had to choose between terror and extinction. Even today people in those countries think: "What if we had tried to resisit, like Finland?" In fact the Germans were taken as LIBERATORS in 1941-42!
What comes to: "I can inform, that these states till 1917 in a nature did not exist." What is "nature"? I could say the earth belongs to DINOSAURS, not bolsheviks. You can say what you will, but the FACT is that these were INTERNATIONALLY independent countries which were invaded and exploited. That´s AGGRESSION.
http://www.winterwar.com/mainpage.htm
julle
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Originally posted by --am--
Revisionist this denying of the international contracts and documents. It in what you are engaged. I can remind, that personally you have declared, that the German army did not make any crimes. I to result you the proof. You have broken off.
wtf are you talking about?
I have never said anything like that (assuming that I'm intrepreting your abysmal "english" correct).
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Originally posted by julle
--am-- there was NOTHING voluntary in the occupying of the Baltic and ½ of Poland.
You it is very bad to know a history. All these "states" did not exist before disintegration of the Russian Empire (except for Poland, but Poland has grasped a piece of Western Ukraine in war of 1920, Ukraine is republic in structure USSR). All of them have not won independence, and have received her from hands Communists (on which they so love to pour toejam). Besides the Baltic states everyone submitted the official application for the introduction in USSR. It was not by occupation, because the main attribute of occupation is the presence of military management, instead of civil. You would like, that it was by aggression. This your desire, but it does not correspond to the historical facts.
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Originally posted by --am--
You it is very bad to know a history. All these "states" did not exist before disintegration of the Russian Empire (except for Poland, but Poland has grasped a piece of Western Ukraine in war of 1920, Ukraine is republic in structure USSR).
Dude, If you knew *anything* about history, you would know that Lithuania is older than Russia.
Lithuania was an independent country back when "Russia" or the Muscovites were nothing but serfs under the mongols.
You know, you keep posting crap in horrible English on subjects you dont know anything about. Perhaps you should do something else?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
wtf are you talking about?
It is your words?
"It was so absurd, that a German soldier could kill a whole barn full of people and recieve no punishment at all, but if he raped one woman he was stripped of rank and sent to military prison. This was true even in the SS units whose only job was to butcher civilians, any soldier found guilty of rape was sent to military prison (or later, transferred to the really diddlyed up units like 36th SS "Dirlewanger")."
You on former to assert, what German army not ìade of mass military crimes, murders of the peace inhabitants and
execute? You on former to assert, what they bore punishment from the heads?
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Originally posted by --am--
It is your words?
"It was so absurd, that a German soldier could kill a whole barn full of people and recieve no punishment at all, but if he raped one woman he was stripped of rank and sent to military prison. This was true even in the SS units whose only job was to butcher civilians, any soldier found guilty of rape was sent to military prison (or later, transferred to the really diddlyed up units like 36th SS "Dirlewanger")."
You on former to assert, what German army not ñîâðøàëà of mass military crimes, murders of the peace inhabitants and êàçíåé? You on former to assert, what they bore punishment from the heads?
There is a difference between saying that something was not a crime in Germany at the time, and saying that something was not a crime at all. I guess I just missunderstood what you wrote.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Dude, If you knew *anything* about history, you would know that Lithuania is older than Russia.
If you to know a history, instead of to show nonsense publicly to know, that Great Lithuanian this slavic state. Was destroyed and is seized by a German knightly award.
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Can we shake hands? Please?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
There is a difference between saying that something was not a crime in Germany at the time, and saying that something was not a crime at all. I guess I just missunderstood what you wrote.
Means you to assert, that if in the state the mass murder of the citizens of other states is authorized, the soldiers which killed these citizens do not carry the responsibility for it?
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A difficult question actually. Both philosophically and legally. Basically the question is whether it should be possible to punish people even though all they were doing was to follow the law of their own country. Basically Nuremberg answered this question with a "yes, under certain circumstances".
It is very easy to come up with absurd consequences of that reasoning though. Be that as it may, it is still the law, so to answer your question: Yes, the soldiers are responsible even if they did not do anything unlawful in their own country.
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Whereas you can speaks, what Germany and USSR it is identical, if in Germany the government permitted to kill the peace inhabitants of other countries, and in USSR for violence above the civil person sentenced to execution?
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I'm sorry, I dont understand.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
A difficult question actually. Both philosophically and legally. Basically the question is whether it should be possible to punish people even though all they were doing was to follow the law of their own country. Basically Nuremberg answered this question with a "yes, under certain circumstances".
It is very easy to come up with absurd consequences of that reasoning though. Be that as it may, it is still the law, so to answer your question: Yes, the soldiers are responsible even if they did not do anything unlawful in their own country.
During the Mi Lai (sp?) trial in the US, I believe Lt. Calley was found guilty even though (he claimed) he followed the orders of a superior officer. It was determined that an Officer has the responsibility to refuse even a direct order if he feels it is unlawful.
I'm sure the exact wording is in Google somewhere.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm sorry, I dont understand.
What exactly is not clear? A difference between the state with policy " no punishment for crimes against the another's country`s citizens " and state with policy " who is loyal, he in safety, and who will disturb it will be punished by death "?
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Is that engrish? :D
"All your base are belong to us..." ;)
HEHE! --am-- you are TOTALLY brainwashed and strong in your beliefs. That´s for sure. Who ever trained you did a fine job.
julle
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This reminds me of a book "Liberators" written by Victor Suvorov .
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One of the earliest--and certainly the most infamous--mass shootings of prisoners of war during World War II did not occur in the heat of battle but was a cold-blooded act of political murder. The victims were Polish officers, soldiers, and civilians captured by the Red Army after it invaded eastern Poland in September 1939. Strictly speaking, even the Polish servicemen were not POWs. The USSR had not declared war, and the Polish commander in chief had ordered his troops not to engage Soviet forces. But there was little the Poles could do. On 28 September, the USSR and Nazi Germany, allied since August, partitioned and then dissolved the Polish state. They then began implementing parallel policies of suppressing all resistance and destroying the Polish elite in their respective areas. The NKVD and the Gestapo coordinated their actions on many issues, including prisoner exchanges. At Brest Litovsk, Soviet and German commanders held a joint victory parade before German forces withdrew westward behind a new demarcation line.
Official records, opened in 1990 when glasnost was still in vogue, show that Stalin had every intention of treating the Poles as political prisoners. Just two days after the invasion began on 17 September, the NKVD created a Directorate of Prisoners of War. 2 It took custody of Polish prisoners from the Army and began organizing a network of reception centers and transfer camps and arranging rail transport to the western USSR. Once there, the Poles were placed in "special" (concentration) camps, where, from October to February, they were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation. The camps were at Kozelsk, Starobelsk, and Ostashkov, all three located on the grounds of former Orthodox monasteries converted into prisons. The NKVD dispatched one of its rising stars, Maj. Vassili Zarubin, to Kozelsk, where most of the officers were kept, to conduct interviews. Zarubin presented himself to the Poles as a charming, sympathetic, and cultured Soviet official, which led many prisoners into sharing confidences that would cost them their lives.
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The considerable logistic effort required to handle the prisoners coincided with the USSR's disastrous 105-day war against Finland. The Finns inflicted 200,000 casualties on the Red Army and destroyed tons of materiel--and much of Russia's military reputation. That war, like the assault on Poland, was a direct result of Stalin's nonaggression pact with Hitler.
The Soviet dictator offered Helsinki "remarkably moderate terms," in the words of British military historian Liddell Hart, taking only territory needed to defend the land, sea, and air approaches to Leningrad. 4 The difference between Stalin's treatment of Finland and Poland underscored his imperial ambitions toward the latter. Moscow and Helsinki even exchanged prisoners once hostilities had ceased. (Stalin, however, dealt harshly with his own soldiers who had been in Finnish captivity. At least 5,000 repatriated troops simply disappeared from an NKVD prison and were presumably executed. 5)
Stalin was anxious to settle with Finland so he could turn his attention to Poland and the Baltic countries, which the Red Army would soon occupy and the NKVD would "pacify" using terror, deportations, and executions. Militarily, the war was over by late February, though a peace agreement was not signed until March. NKVD interrogations were completed about the same time. The Poles were encouraged to believe they would be released, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die. On 5 March 1940, Stalin signed their death warrant--an NKVD order condemning 21,857 prisoners to "the supreme penalty: shooting." They had been condemned as "hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority."
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During April-May 1940, the Polish prisoners were moved from their internment camps and taken to three execution sites. The place most identified with the Soviet atrocity is Katyn Forest, located 12 miles west of Smolensk, Russia. For years historians assumed that the grounds of an NKVD rest and recreation facility were both an execution and burial site for nearly a fifth of the unfortunate Poles who found themselves in Soviet captivity. Post-Cold War revelations, however, suggest that the victims were shot in the basement of the NKVD headquarters in Smolensk and at an abattoir in the same city, although some may have been executed at a site in the forest itself. In any event, the Katyn Forest is--and will probably long remain--the main symbol of the atrocity, even if it was not the actual killing field.
(http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg62.gif)
Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kaganovich, both favoring execution.
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The Katyn Forest massacre was a criminal act of historic proportions and enduring political implications. When Nazi occupation forces in April 1943 announced the discovery of several mass graves, propaganda minister Josef Goebbels hoped that international revulsion over the Soviet atrocity would drive a wedge into the Big Three coalition and buy Germany a breathing space, if not a victory, in its war against Russia. (A headline in the May 1943 Newsweek read: "Poles vs. Reds: Allied Unity Put to Test Over Officer Dead.") But Goebbels miscalculated. Despite overwhelming evidence of Soviet responsibility, Moscow blamed the Germans, and for the rest of the war Washington and London officially accepted the Soviet countercharge. When the Polish government-in-exile in London demanded an international inquiry, Stalin used this as a pretext to break relations. The Western allies objected but eventually acquiesced. Soon thereafter, the Soviet dictator assembled a group of Polish Communists that returned to Poland with the Red Army in 1944 and formed the nucleus of the postwar government. Stalin's experience with the Katyn affair may have convinced him that the West, grateful for the Red Army's contribution to the Allied military effort, would find it hard to confront him over Poland after the war.
Professor Stanislaw Swianiewicz was the sole survivor of Katyn. He was waiting to board a bus to the forest area when an NKVD colonel arrived and pulled him out of line. Swianiewicz was an internationally recognized expert on forced labor in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany, who had been born in Poland when it was still part of the Russian empire, and had studied in Moscow. He ended up in Siberia, and after the war emigrated to the United States, where he taught economics at the University of Notre Dame. At least one CIA analyst remembers the professor from his days in South Bend.
Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors; 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. 7 It was their social status that landed them in front of NKVD execution squads. Most of the victims were reservists who had been mobilized when Germany invaded. In all, the NKVD eliminated almost half the Polish officer corps--part of Stalin's long-range effort to prevent the resurgence of an independent Poland.
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Julle, could you please post second part of that note, (pg62.gif)
That note is incomplete and missing last page. Right now nothing says about killing anything in that note.
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Originally posted by --am--
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuenia voluntary have come in structure USSR.
You mean in the same way that Bulgaria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia voluntarily joined the USSR ?
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Angus,
If you really interested in the answer to you question by a real professional - intelligence officer and historian, you should read the books of Victor Suvorov - "Day M", "Ice-Breaker", etc.
His date is July 6th, 1941 - two weeks later then Hitler's attack.
miko
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Soviet, sorry I don´t understand what is the 2nd part.
I only found this:
(http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg66.gif)
Largest of seven mass graves. Five layers of 500 murdered Polish officers buried here by the Soviets.
julle
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"Means you to assert, that if in the state the mass murder of the citizens of other states is authorized, the soldiers which killed these citizens do not carry the responsibility for it? --am--"
Here´s something for you to chew on: My GOOD freinds garantfather was a soldier during the continutation war against russia. It was CHRISTMAS and they had agreed on a ceasefire for that day. That means that NO SHOOTING! SO: the time came and first the russians stood up and waved to the finns. Slowly the finns started to rise up. My friend grandfather stood up too. In a few minits he was SHOT IN THE HEAD by a russian sniper! Of course he was KILLED. After the war this inividual has been tried to caught by the russians cover the incidence by lies and ignorance. :mad:
Remember that the above Polish episode is only a crystal on the tip of the iceberg. Showing how the russians were "NON-AGGRESSIVE". :rolleyes:
NO ONE SAYS THAT THE NAZI´S WERE NOT EVIL, but the world is NOT black ´n white you know. ALL sides did the enormities of the war. We should LEARN from that!
julle
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Originally posted by julle
"Means you to assert, that if in the state the mass murder of the citizens of other states is authorized, the soldiers which killed these citizens do not carry the responsibility for it? --am--"
You have written about Polish killed much. Now write (if you are objective) about 20 000 killed Russian in the Polish concentration camps, after aggression of Poland in 1920. Then as much to write about concentration camps in Finland former citizens of Finland there died which have not wished in 1940 to live in "free" Finland). Then to write about concentration camps in America for the citizens of the Japanese nationality. Then to write about destiny the Italian soldiers in America (last of them have returned home in 1956). Then to write some words about destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
USSR did not make anything, that would not make other states.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Angus,
If you really interested in the answer to you question by a real professional - intelligence officer and historian, you should read the books of Victor Suvorov - "Day M", "Ice-Breaker", etc.
This fantastic writer, has written many books, where on each page false. He nothing to understand in tanks, nothing to understand, in strategy, nothing to understand in economy. But very to love money.
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Julle, the Katyn mystery is still unsolved.
The document your posted only proves that Soviet government was AGAINST executing Polish officers.
If you'll see the Resolution put on that "order" by Stalin and others - it is written ACROSS the paper. Means - AGAINST. On the left there is a small note: "Kalinin - pro, Kaganovich - pro". That's all.
I know that AM thinks that it was Soviets who shot Polish POWs in Katyn. I still don't think so. Too many fiction around that sad event :(
Remember who and when "found" Katyn mass-graves?...
Miko, Suvorov lies. It's a well known fact. It was many times proven that the only page where he doesn't lie is contents. Anyone considering him as a serious "historian" should go read the sources he "quotes". At least 75% of qoutes are taken out of context, have false dates or are simply a figment of his imagination.
By "liberation" I mean saving ethnic groups sentenced to total destruction by nazis. USSR could save all that 6 million Jews, 500000 Gypsies, umpteen number of Eastern Slavs and Western Europeans.
Crimes of nazism were judged by a Nuremburg International Court. Find me any "proof" of crimes of such scale performed by communists. All you can find will be western/nazi propaganda adopted for elementary school. I don't speak about any International Court decisions.
Again: USSR was right. UK was right. USA was right. Their opponents were not. Fortunately - they mostly found their fate after trials in Nuremburg and Tokyo.
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Balkars to Honour NKVD Victims
How a summer's day in 1942 turned the Balkar people into a nation of
outcasts By Yuri Akbashev and Askerby Minasharov in Nalchik (CRS No. 78,
13-Apr-01)
In a bid to rally their ethnic kin in Kabardino-Balkaria, the Balkar
nationalists have found that tales of past injustice are often more
persuasive than promises of a better future.
In this context, the Cherekskaya Tragedy of 1942 serves their purposes well.
And the upcoming anniversary of the NKVD massacre has given the new
torch-bearers of the Balkar independence movement a golden opportunity to
"honour the martyrs".
The truth about the Cherekskaya Tragedy only came to light in the early
1990s when KGB files were opened and post-war cover-ups were unmasked.
According to Balkar historians, the NKVD swooped on the North Caucasus as
units of the 37th Army fell back from their positions around
Rostov-on-the-Don.
Among the retreating troops were around 700 survivors of the shattered 115th
Kabardino-Balkarian Cavalry Division which had been engaged in running
battles with German tanks and motor rifle units.
According to reports sent by the NKVD - the forerunners of the KGB - to
police chief Lavrenty Beria in Moscow, the so-called deserters were largely
ethnic Balkars who took refuge in settlements across the Caucasian
foothills.
Beria promptly dispatched "execution squads" to three Balkar villages --
Sautu, Kyunyum and Cheget-El - where they shot more than 1,500 men, women
and children in the space of three days.
Tani Baisieva, 66, remembers, "I was seven years old at the time. There were
60 of us gathered at my grandmother's house. The Red Army soldiers said they
wanted to hold a village meeting and got everyone out into the street. We
were standing by a wall when the troops opened fire. My mother fell down,
covering me with her thick shawl. Then they left us there to die.
"I remember hearing my mother whispering for a drink of water, then she died
along with my two younger sisters. Meanwhile, the soldiers gorged themselves
on food they had stolen from our homes. I was the only one to survive. When
relatives from a neighbouring village took me home, they found five bullet
wounds in my body."
Another survivor, Mukhadin Gazaev, 76, said, "We ran off to Irtsibashi, in
the mountains and lived there for a week with no food. When I came back, I
found my sister Maru dead with her youngest son in her arms. The other two
boys were also dead -- one had been shot together with his grandmother. We
wrapped their charred remains in kaftans and buried them."
And Khalimat Zhangurazova, 71, hid in a ditch and watched as more than 60
members of her family were gunned down on the third day of the pogrom. They
shot the Balkars in the courtyard, then burned their corpses nearby.
"It was impossible to breathe from the stench of burning bodies," said
Zhangurazova.
After the Soviet Army reoccupied the Caucasus, Stalin was quick to accuse
the Balkars of collaborating with the Nazis and deported them en masse to
Central Asia. Thousands died from cold and hunger as they struggled for
survival on the inhospitable Kazak steppe.
The Balkars were officially rehabilitated in 1957 when they returned to
Kabardino-Balkaria - only to find that many of their traditional territories
had been appropriated by Kabardinian and Russian settlers.
Over the past few years, Balkar leaders have been calling for Moscow to
recognise the Cherekskaya massacre and admit that the commanders of the NKVD
units -- Fedor Nakin, Lieutenant-Colonel Shikin and his adjutant, Captain
Tyazhelov - were guilty of war crimes.
They argue that allegations of Nazi collaboration are "a stain on the honour
of the Balkar people" which later made them outcasts in their own society.
The nationalists say that more than half of the 100,000 Balkars in the
republic consider themselves to be the victims of discrimination. Their main
enclaves are concentrated in the Elbrus and Chereksky regions from where
they hope to build an independent Balkaria - a goal which has eluded them
for nearly a decade.
Yuri Akbashev and Askerby Minasharov are regular IWPR contributors.
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Originally posted by --am--
This fantastic writer, has written many books, where on each page false. He nothing to understand in tanks, nothing to understand, in strategy, nothing to understand in economy. But very to love money.
"Denial is the path of least resistence to acceptance of the truth"
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson June 2nd, 2002
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The rapid German advance in the first months of the war forced the NKVD to evacuate several prisons, labor colonies, and camps that would otherwise have fallen into enemy hands. Between July and December 1941, 210 colonies, 135 prisons, and 27 camps, containing nearly 750,000 prisoners, were transferred to the east. Summarizing "gulag activity in the Great Patriotic War," the Gulag chief, Ivan Nasedkin, claimed that "on the whole, the evacuation of the camps was quite well organized." He went on to add, however, that "because of the shortage of transport, most of the prisoners were evacuated on foot, over distances that sometimes exceeded 600 miles." One can well imagine the condition in which the prisoners arrived at their destinations. When there was not enough time for a camp to be evacuated, as was often the case in the opening weeks of the war, the prisoners were simply executed. This was particularly the case in western Ukraine, where at the end of June 1941 the NKVD massacred 10,000 prisoners in Lviv, 1,200 in the prison at Lutsk, 1,500 in Stanislwow, and 500 in Dubno. When the Germans arrived, they discovered dozens of mass graves in the regions of Lviv, Zhytomyr, and Vynnytsa.
(http://www.ukar.org/lvivpo01.jpg)
(http://www.ukar.org/lvivpo02.jpg)
Lviv residents
search for friends and relatives
among those murdered by the NKVD
during the Lviv Pogrom of July 1941
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(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/skatyn.jpg)
http://katyn.codis.ru/fberia.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/memorials.html
http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/
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Rip, Suvorov's books are not a subject of historical science, but of a patological mental desease and Western money. We have some books here who don't leave a single "fact" in Suvorov's books intact. I doubt they will be printed in the West, guess why?
Julle, what are you trying to say? That Soviet police forces were used to execute traitors and state criminals? I's not a secret. Lviv pogrom in July, 1941, performed by NKVD?! Check the map of operation Barbarossa.
Sorry, all you say here is a nazi "history" adopted for elementary school in late-40s, with maaany translation errors noone ever tried to correct.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I doubt they will be printed in the West, guess why?
No, tell us .
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You sure had a boat loads of criminals and traitors over there Boroda. Guess it's good thing NKVD eliminated them :)
Sieg He.. ermmm... Za Rodina !
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Thanks, Boroda. I needed some more laughs today!
Remembering Katyn (http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/crozier.html)
"On April 13, 1990, the Soviet authorities at last admitted responsibility for the massacres at Katyn and elsewhere, although the figure cited in the relevant statement—"around 15,000"—fell short of the real total by more than 6,000.
The admission came in a statement by the Tass news agency, with the personal authority of then Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. The statement referred to only three of the prison camps involved: Smolensk, Voroshilovgrad, and Kalinin. It claimed that the authorities had knowledge of the killings through "recently discovered documents." "Direct responsibility for the crime" was ascribed to Beria.
The statement ended "The Soviet side, expressing profound regret over the Katyn tragedy, declares that this was one of the gravest crimes of Stalinism."
At a meeting in Moscow that day, Gorbachev presented Polish president General Wojciech Jaruzelski with copies of the NKVD's lists of names of Polish internees in the three camps mentioned.
The Polish government issued a statement declaring that the question of responsibility for the massacre had "weighed particularly painfully" on Polish-Soviet relations and that the "long-awaited" Soviet admission made possible a relationship based on "partnership and true friendship." The statement went on: "Reconciliation can only be built on truth." It is surely fair to add that the Tass statement—although useful for relations between the ailing Soviet Union and its Polish satellite—was true but not the whole truth. Only three of the localities involved were named, and the total given fell short of the true figure."
Once again... yet again..... always again, Boroda. I know this is hard for you.
BUT YOUR OWN PEOPLE ADMIT THEY KILLED THE POLES AT KATYN.
THEY ADMIT IT!
THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE NKVD DID IT.
Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts.
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Remember that the above Katyn episode is only a crystal on the tip of the iceberg!
CHARTSYSK MASSACRE
( Sept. 18, 1941 )
During the Soviet army retreat in the direction of Yeletsk, the retreating soldiers came upon a small ravine between Chartsysk and Snizhy stations about sixty kilometres from the city of Stalino. The horrible sight that befell their eyes was the dead bodies of many children aged from 14 to 16 years that partly filled the ravine. They were dressed in the black uniform of the F.S.U. Trade and Craft School in Staline. It was discovered that the children were being evacuated from as the German army neared the city. After walking nearly 60 kilometres they became utterly exhausted and had begged for transport. Their guardians promised to send trucks but instead a detachment of Russian political police (NKVD) arrived. Carrying machine-guns, they starting shooting the children in cold blood and throwing the bodies into the ravine. The Soviet soldiers counted the bodies of 370 slain children.
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Toad, you have a dangerous hobby of quoting Gorbachev and other US employees ;)
AFAIK, the "proof" he have given consisted of documents like Julle showed us. You only have to read it carefully to understand it's a fake.
President Kvasnevsky knows some things better then Gorby, and still asks Russia to admit that USSR is guilty in Katyn' massacre.
Frankly speaking - I don't know who is responsible for that, and I doubt anyone will ever know. I only know the facts. Graves found by nazis and shown as "Soviet atrocities" in 1943. In 1943 Allied inspected the graves and found only bodies shot down from German weapons. 3 members of a nazi "comission" openly stated they were forced to sign a document stating tthe bodies were shot by Russians while they saw all evidence proving that nazis did it. That people were not under any Soviet influence, living in Western occupation zones.
I don't think that "documents" shown by Julle prove anything. They were all analyzed in Russian press and appear completely absurd. The one he showed here states that Stalin and others were against executing Poles. Others are obviously fake because don't comply to Soviet standards...
It's all too complicated. Following the line I explained in the closed thread - If I meet obvious nazi propaganda as an alternative to Soviet POV - I'll choose Soviet side without hesitating. Just to protect my weak mind.
My expaination is that all that things were used to raise hatred between Poles and Russians. It's the only thing I am sure.
Look how this goes again. I state that nazism was evil and had to be defeated at all costs. My opponents draw obvious cold-war propaganda issues and state that it was communism that really was.
Julle, where did you dig that FZU students episode? Did you find the secret Propaganda Ministry archives? If you don't want to look absolutely stupid - stop posting such "sources". I still don't get what you are trying to prove me. War is war, and even if what you say is true (that is not) - it's nothing compared to what nazis planned for us. And please, turn on your mind and read what you post here before hitting "submit" button.
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So Tass and Gorby are lying?
How about this one:
Putin calls Poles (http://www.ce-review.org/00/15/polandnews15.html)
"Russian President-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned President Kwaœniewski mid-week to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave thought to contain the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the Second World War.
Putin invited Polish authorities and other interested parties to participate in an investigation into this recent discovery, but no other details (or numbers) were released. The grave was found near Smolensk, close to Katyn, where some 4000 Polish officers lay. Between 15,000 and 21,000 were executed in April and May of 1940, following the Soviet invasion, but most of the bodies have never been recovered.
The Katyn massacre, as the event is known, has long served as a symbol of Soviet crimes against Poland. Prime Minister Buzek told the upper house the same day that: "These were not only Polish officers, Poland's elite, who were buried in the Katyn graves. For many years, Polish sovereignty was buried there as well." President Kwaœniewski's wife, Jolanta, traveled to Russia to take part in commemorative events there."
Not Putin either?
Well, how about your Interior Minister & Putin?
Polish prime minister, relatives dedicate memorial to Stalin's victims (http://www.latvians.com/Mailer/2000_09_03.htm#news9)
"What happened here should never have happened," Rushailo, the interior minister, said. "I am sure that there will be no more events that could lay a shadow on relations between our two nations."
Moscow persistently blamed the murders on Nazi forces invading the Soviet Union during World War II, and did not officially admit Soviet guilt until 1990. It was the Nazis who found the graves, in 1943.
Poland still hopes that those responsible for the executions could will be punished, and President Vladimir Putin called his Polish counterpart Aleksander Kwasniewski in April to offer help investigating the crime.
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Toad, I hope they'll find the truth and finaly find the real people who commited that crime. And I am almost sure they will be nazis.
So far the only reliable document is the Burdenko's comission report submitted to Nuremburg court. Everything else is so full of obvious lies :( And please don't mix political decisions with what really happened.
I also hope that Polish side will investigate the executions of Soviet POWs in Poland in 1920.
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Boroda please provide us with the titles or authors of some of the books written that discredit Suvorov . I would be interested in reading them . I agree some of his books have a lot of exageration and untruths in them . His book "Spetsnaz" for example is mostly fiction . Some of his other books are about half factual and half fiction, for example "Inside the Aquarium", and "Liberators", but that is to be expected considering the subject matter . I should add that I think "Inside the Soviet Military" is reasonably accurate . I cannot offer an opinion on his latest books about WWII history, I have not read them and I'm really not interested in the subject .
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A link to an interesting but doubtfull (i have to admit it) book in Russian:
http://lib.ru/MUHIN_YU/katyn.txt
Even after reading this book I can't be sure about who made it. Mukhin has some intersting ideas, but his other books make him look like a bonehead commie :(
BTW, I find interesting parallels between Katyn and Kosovo...
Re Suvorov.
"Liberator" is a collection of standard army "baikas", processed to shock Westerners. "Aquarium" - interesting reading, but - fiction.
The best book so far "against" him is A. Pomogaibo's "Pseudohistorian Suvorov-Rezun and Mysteries of the World War Two"
http://referats.colibri.ru/book.asp?cod=113856&rp=34&up=1
It's not perfect, but the author keeps up with Suvorov's popular style and makes his book interesting to read. BTW, Suvorov's "pure fiction" books suffer from extremely poor Russian language, this makes me think that his "Icebreaker" series were written by Western professionals.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, I hope they'll find the truth and finaly find the real people who commited that crime.
The Truth IS known.
Gorbachev ADMITTED it.
It's only a few people that can't accept it.
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Originally posted by julle
Do you have second part of that document that you posted? Right now its incomplete, it's made out of more then just one page. As right now, nothing in that document say about killing polls.
I'm not intrested in debate, I'd just like to read complete document.
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Julle the doctor Gebbels your teacher? If you read the textbooks on a history (anyone) instead of nazis propagation, knew, that by first in Lviv have come Ukrainian nazis Stepan Bander. It they suited mass murder in cities, at approval of Germany. Only when Bander has proclaimed independence of Ukraine, germans have lost to him interest and have arrested. However in 1944 him have let out from prison, that he has organized struggle with advanced Red Army
As to Caucasuses, and chechen`s (which you wrongly name "Balkar"), they mass cooperated with nazis, they suited attacks on wax of Red army, on trains, on warehouses. One of gangs was headed by the Chechen public prosecutor Mayrbek Sharipov, other gang was headed by the regional chief NKVD Hasan Israilov. All gangs actively cooperated with nazis, 2/3 divisions " of Brandenburg - 800 " were on Caucasus in these gangs.
By the decision GKO USSR number 5074 from July 31, 1944 the Chechen republic was disbanded, and inhabitants resettlement in Kazakhstan and Kirghizia. In In this document was written, that for resettlement to ensure warm train`s, items of a meal on a road, on everyone a train 1 doctor and 2 medical sisters. For delivery to places of residing 1600 automobiles, 57 000 horse transports, 103 tractors were given.
July 28, 1945 Advice of the National Commissioners USSR has accepted the law on which all people resettlement from Caucasuses are exempted from the agricultural tax, from obligatory deliveries of products to the state, from surtax and other taxes.
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(http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/gregorovich/figure03.jpg)
http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/gregorovich/
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(http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/63/285/10x7/twip_2002_0221_04.jpg)
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(http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/63/285/10x7/twip_2002_0221_01.jpg)
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To quote propagation of time " of cold war " it not cleverest. I can recollect propagation against West of times " of cold war " and present photos with such horrors, that you three days eat can not.
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Who or what are the bottom two pics?
Tronsky
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Russians still in Denial
Poles Reject Moscow's Statement
By Andrzej Stylinski
Associated Press Writer
WARSAW, Poland (AP) -- Poland's Foreign Ministry on Wednesday protested a Russian statement denying that the 1939 Soviet invasion of eastern Poland was an "act of aggression."
In a move that threatened to strain Polish-Russian ties, the Russian Foreign Ministry said Tuesday that the former Soviet army was merely seizing territory as a buffer against any Nazi advance from occupied Poland.
Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman Pawel Dobrowolski said Friday's 60th anniversary of the invasion "is not the best moment to revive arguments, which we know from the language of the Stalinist (era) propaganda."
Western historians have long said that the former Soviet Union acted on a secret agreement with Nazi Germany when the Soviet army seized eastern Polish provinces 17 days after Hitler invaded Poland, starting World War II. The so-called Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact preceding the invasion is generally acknowledged to have called for the partition of Poland between the Nazis and Soviets.
After seizing the territory, the Soviets sent some 1.5 million Poles to labor camps. At least 15,000 Polish officers were killed by secret police.
Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski plans an unofficial visit on the anniversary Friday to the Russian cities of Katyn and Kharkov, where thousands of Polish officers executed under Stalin's regime are buried. Moscow officially acknowledged responsibility in 1990 for the Katyn massacre that followed Poland's partition.
Kwasniewski's top aide, Marek Siwiec, called the Russian statement about the Soviet invasion a "big mistake" and indicated Russian diplomacy acted in a "somewhat schizophrenic" way.
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Now if anyone earns the title of "revisionist" it would be am, or boroda. Questioning the events at Katyn forest is not far from questioning the birth of Napoleon! And still another secret is to be unveiled, - there were 10.000 more officers who's bodies were never found.
But anyway, back to the possible invasion. Molotov and Ribbentrop had already split up Poland before the Polish invasion, with a line, and to that line is where the soviet troops moved.
This was coldly pre-planned, although the russians did not know more about what Hitler was planning. Hitler surprized the russians with his Polish campaign and the speed of which it was carried out to success. The russians also surprized Hitler in the swiftness of getting in there themselves. Although bound together by a contract, I find it just as normal for the russians to have been plotting against Hitler, as he plotting against the russians.
There was a big and illogical thing in the German invasion of the USSR. If the invasion was about raw materials, it was purely silly, for Hitler was already getting them at a cheaper cost than waging war for them. Its like he expected their deal to be a short lived one. Or was this purely fanatic politic?
The russians however, would have been very clever to plot against the germans. Firstly, the germans were a strong military force lead by an uncalculable fanatic. Secondly, the conquest of Germany would move their perimeter to the west, and enable them to "liberate" western Europe, in which especially France, had a strong force of communists. Britain would be left alone in Europe as a "western" capitalistic state.
Now, Britain was not particularly popular amongst the russians, and in a sense, a cold war between the two had already started.
In a debate between Churchill and Stalin (Yalta?) Stalin complained that the Western allies were not resisting the germans with a strong enough force compaired to the russians. Churchill replied : "When Britain stood alone against the germans, their tanks ships and aeroplanes were running on russian oil"
So, from the scenery of 1941 I think it is very logical to assume that the russians were planning. They had the motive from pure common sense. And they had the means for aggressive warfare, as had been demonstrated well in Finland. So where is the plan?
BTW, there vere hot debates at Nurnberg about whether the russians should stand trial for BOTH Katyn forest and the Finnish invasion. However that would have been difficult to do, as they were one of the victors, and had by then closed their curtain!
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I have news for you am!!!!
The graves of 25,700 Polish citizens massacred by the Soviets in April and May 1940 have been unearthed at three sites in western Russia, providing evidence for a genocide indictment the Polish government plans to pursue in the Polish General Court. The excavations, carried out by Muzeum Okregowe w Sieradzu archaeologist Marek Urbanski, yielded thousands of German-made bullets bought by the Soviets between 1930 and 1935, proof of Russian involvement in the massacres. Soviet officials had blamed the killings on Hitler. Urbanski says the executions were directed mainly at Polish army officers captured at the outset of World War II and were part of a Soviet plan to exterminate the Polish intelligentsia. Some 14,700 executed officers have been identified by their uniforms and other military paraphernalia.
Nearly three weeks after Hitler invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, Stalin ordered Soviet troops into the eastern part of the country. Captured Polish officers were interned in concentration camps at Kozielsk, Starobielsk, and Ostaszkow, and, six months later, were executed in Katyn and Miednoje forests and in a wooded area on the outskirts of Kharkov. The German army discovered the Katyn Forest massacre site after its invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. Urbanski's three seasons of excavations in woods near Kharkov revealed that the majority of victims there had been shot in the back of the head with their hands tied behind their backs and their coats wrapped around their heads. A number were finished off with bayonets or a second shot.
Excavations at the massacre sites, which began in 1994, were undertaken to determine the extent of the burial grounds and how many bodies they contained, and in preparation for Polish military cemeteries. The Kharkov burial area, the most thoroughly studied, yielded more than 10,000 artifacts associated with 6,400 bodies, including 2,100 Russians, victims of Stalin's purges, as well as 4,300 Poles. Of the Poles, 3,820 were officers interned at Starobielsk; the rest were probably civilians arrested during the short-lived Soviet occupation.--SPENCER P.M. HARRINGTON
So, maybe you can go and have a look?
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(http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/ww2-pix/pact.jpg)
Above -- Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov signs the Nazi-Soviet Non-aggression Pact while German Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop and Soviet leader Stalin look on under a portrait of Lenin, August 23, 1939. News of the Pact stunned the world and paved the way for the beginning of World War Two with Hitler assured the Germans would not have to fight a war on two fronts.
Text of the Nazi-Soviet Pact
The Government of the German Reich and The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Desirous of strengthening the cause of peace between Germany and the U.S.S.R., and proceeding from the fundamental provisions of the Neutrality Agreement concluded in April, 1926 between Germany and the U.S.S.R., have reached the following Agreement:
Article I. Both High Contracting Parties obligate themselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on each other, either individually or jointly with other Powers.
Article II. Should one of the High Contracting Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third Power, the other High Contracting Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third Power.
Article III. The Governments of the two High Contracting Parties shall in the future maintain continual contact with one another for the purpose of consultation in order to exchange information on problems affecting their common interests.
Article IV. Neither of the two High Contracting Parties shall participate in any grouping of powers whatsoever that is directly or indirectly aimed at the other party.
Article V. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties over problems of one kind or another, both parties shall settle these disputes or conflicts exclusively through friendly exchange of opinion or, if necessary, through the establishment of arbitration commissions.
Article VI. The present Treaty is concluded for a period of ten years, with the proviso that, in so far as one of the High Contracting Parties does not advance it one year prior to the expiration of this period, the validity of this Treaty shall automatically be extended for another five years.
Article VII. The present Treaty shall be ratified within the shortest possible time. The ratifications shall be exchanged in Berlin. The Agreement shall enter into force as soon as it is signed.
[The section below was not published at the time the above was announced.]
Secret Additional Protocol.
On the occasion of the signature of the Non-Aggression Pact between the German Reich and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics the undersigned plenipotentiaries of each of the two parties discussed in strictly confidential conversations the question of the boundary of their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. These conversations led to the following conclusions:
Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.
Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish State, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.
The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish State and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.
In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.
Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinterest in these areas.
Article IV. This Protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.
Moscow, August 23, 1939.
For the Government of the German Reich
v. Ribbentrop
Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R.
V. Molotov
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1. Where apologies of the Poles for murder 20000 captured the Russian soldier in war of 1920? Or Russian it is possible to kill and for it anybody will not answer?
2. Ostensibly "east areas of Poland" are Western Ukraine seized by Poland in war of 1920.
3. Poland has grasped ÷àòü of Czechoslovakia. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
4. Poland per 38 years offered to Germany in common to attack on USSR. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
5. England and France have refused to sign with USSR the contract about safety in Europe per 39 years. USSR has remained one on one with Germany.
6. That that you here throw it not the documents, so and not the proofs. It is a fiction. Propagation.
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Originally posted by --am--
1. Where apologies of the Poles for murder 20000 captured the Russian soldier in war of 1920? Or Russian it is possible to kill and for it anybody will not answer?
2. Ostensibly "east areas of Poland" are Western Ukraine seized by Poland in war of 1920.
3. Poland has grasped ÷àòü of Czechoslovakia. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
4. Poland per 38 years offered to Germany in common to attack on USSR. Poland an aggressor? Yes / Not
5. England and France have refused to sign with USSR the contract about safety in Europe per 39 years. USSR has remained one on one with Germany.
6. That that you here throw it not the documents, so and not the proofs. It is a fiction. Propagation.
Poles murdering 20 000 captured Russian soldiers. First, what are your sources for this? Perhaps you can tell me more about those murders? Fact is I didnt even know that Poland and Russia fought a war in 1920. Was that Polish-Russian war in some way related to the Russian civil war between the reds and the whites?
ANYWAY am, perhaps it is true that Poles murdered 20 000 Russian soldiers, I honestly have no idea. But does that change the fact that the Katyn massacre was a horrible horrible crime? Two wrongs does not make one right. You cannot say that it would in some way excuse what the Russians did, neither does it justify it in any way.
Neither does it matter whether the Poles had been aggressive against Czeckoslovakia (how DO you spell that damn country). Neither does it matter what England or France signed or refused to sign in 1939. Get it through your head that NOTHING you can come up with will justify or excuse the murder of 25 000 Poles. It doesnt work that way.
When it comes to crimes against humanity (and by the Nuremberg definition, the Katyn massacre is such a crime) there are no justifications, no excuses, no "they did it first", NOTHING. There is just a crime against humanity and thats it.
You and Boroda are among the worst people I have ever run into on message forums like these. And I have been on many forums. It's like the both of you are channelling Stalin and Molotov at the same time. It is really scary to see the combination of denial and lies, otherwise only seen in David Irvin and his merry band of holocaust deniers.
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Murder 100 000 people in Hiroshima a crime? Murder 80 000 in Tokyoa crime ? Murder 250 000 inhabitants of Dresden a crime?
All that I want to tell - USSR made such things, what made also other "democratic" countries. But the inhabitants of the "democratic" countries have forgotten these crimes (or them have helped to forget, having washed out brains).
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Originally posted by --am--
Murder 100 000 people in Hiroshima a crime? Murder 80 000 in Tokyoa crime ? Murder 250 000 inhabitants of Dresden a crime?
[/b]
According to international law, no to all three, they were all legal acts of war. And the death toll at Dresden was between 35 000 -135 000. I dont know where that 250 000 figure comes from.
All that I want to tell - USSR made such things, what made also other "democratic" countries. But the inhabitants of the "democratic" countries have forgotten these crimes (or them have helped to forget, having washed out brains).
am, if that is what you are saying, then you wont find any argument here. If you are saying "Sure, we committed horrible crimes, and I'm not trying to defend that in any way, bot others committed similar crimes too, so we are not the only bad guys". Then I'll be the first one to agree with you.
The problem is that the impression I have gotten so far from you and Boroda is that you are saying "No, Russia did not commit any crime at all, that is just nazi propaganda." Usually followed by a "Shut up you nazi revisionist bastard". Heck, Boroda even said that he reported me to Swedish authorities when I had the nerve to claim that Russian soldiers raped german women in 1945.
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Hiroshima? What is Hiroshima? Bahh, russian propoganda!
And it was the russians who bombed Dresden in overpainted lend-and lease anerican and british aircraft!
No, I better stop thinking like --am--
:D
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Originally posted by Hortlund
am, if that is what you are saying, then you wont find any argument here. If you are saying "Sure, we committed horrible crimes, and I'm not trying to defend that in any way, bot others committed similar crimes too, so we are not the only bad guys". Then I'll be the first one to agree with you.
You at all do not know international law. Read on leisure. There such methods of war are forbidden to all. That did not prevent the Americans and Englishmen to be at war by such ways.
Poland always was an enemy of Russia. 400 years she attacked us. The world was only then, when Poland was supervised by Russia. In other time it is continuous wars. So, that for USSR these seized officers were historical enemies. And enemies destroy. Look on USA and taliban " s. Them now have destroyed only because publicly have announced by an enemy of USA. So always was and always will be.
You judge the past from a position today. Today it seems awful, but it not so. In 50 years our grandsons will tell, that we lived in awful time, where continuous violence and crimes. USSR was among " good guys ".
It is necessary to understand, that then " good guys " order itself so. And " bad guys " (Germany and her allies " carried out policy 100 times worse. In one thousand time it is worse. And you speak them, that they are equal.
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Originally posted by --am--
You at all do not know international law. Read on leisure.
Nashwan? Is that you?
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Here we go again.
Noone EVER saw the "originals" of that fake "secret protocols". They were "invented" long after the war, with the only purpose of raising the nationalist movements in Pribaltika.
You are boring. The same old cold war crap.
I don't care if someone "admitted" anything. I know that Polish officers were killed from German weapons, and the graves were found at the place where in 1940-41 were young pioneer camps and recreational zones, where people from Smolensk spent their vacations. Officers listed as "killed" in 1940 were witnessed to be alive in autumn 1941. It's a fact. But - again, I doubt both points of view.
Soviet "invasion" in Poland started after Polish state ceased to exist. USSR took control of the territory occupied by Poland in 1919-20. Neither UK, neither France, who had obligations to declare war on any state invading Poland ever said a word against USSR taking back what belonged to it.
BTW, tell me how many Polish Jews were kept from being killed by nazis?
Hortlund, you are a liar. I got mad when you said that USSR had to surrender to "avoid unnessesary victims". It means that you either support nazis, or are absolutely unaware of what was planned for the population of Eastern Europe according to German "plan Ost". And I DO admit that there WERE accidents of violence against civilians in Germany, but I disagree with a crazy picture you draw, and state that, unlike nazis, Soviet authorities took all possible measures to prevent it. Try reading what others post, sometimes it helps.
(how DO you spell that damn country)
I spell it "×åõîñëîâàêèÿ". JFYI: in English it's spelled as AM did it: "Czechoslovakia". And I don't think that if you don't know how to spell it it's a reason to call any country "damn".
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Originally posted by Hortlund
According to international law, no to all three, they were all legal acts of war. And the death toll at Dresden was between 35 000 -135 000. I dont know where that 250 000 figure comes from.
It is the data of state department of USA per 55 years. The general of a fire service of Germany Gans Rumpf refers in the book " Results World War II " to it
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Soviet "invasion" in Poland started after Polish state ceased to exist. USSR took control of the territory occupied by Poland in 1919-20. Neither UK, neither France, who had obligations to declare war on any state invading Poland ever said a word against USSR taking back what belonged to it
uh ?
BS
I wont go back in history but before 1792 it was not Russian ...
Historic russian claim on this zone are BS and you know it.
and concerning jew isn't the word pogrom russian ?
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And why not 1656? When the Poles promised enter in structure of Russia if that them will rescue from Sweden of aggression?
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Baa Baa poor little lamb ...
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Straffo, I repeat: French and British governments didn't say a single word about it, and didn't consider it an agression against Poland.
The word "pogrom" IS Russian. It strangely disappeared from Soviet lexicon, at least in the meaning you know. Soviet power did all possible things to establish equal rights for Jews that were supressed by the Empire. Now I expect you to say that it was USSR who "eliminated" 6 million Jews, am I right?
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Boroda, I have to ask you, do you want to talk to me, or will you just curse at me if I write something to you on these boards again?
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Now I expect you to say that it was USSR who "eliminated" 6 million Jews, am I right?
No I will never say that and you know that.
I was just trying to point (in a trollesque way ) that no-one is innocent especially when at war.
Trostski wasn't jew ? it was used againt him by the stalin if I recall good ..
You have doubt about the Katyn massacre it's certainly legitimate for your point of view not for me as official of your country recognized the fact.
Why France didn't reacted in 1939 when URSS invaded Poland is simply because Comunist worker were needed in armement plant not making riot to please the soviet governement.
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The 20th centurys worst crime by now virtually forgotten was Stalins Red Holocaust in Eastern Europe in the 1930s and 40s. Over seven million Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians were murdered, starved to death, or died in Stalins death camps.
Stalin also destroyed the Tatars, the remaining Caucasian Muslims, Volga Germans, and one million Muslim Kazaks. As late as 1949, 95,000 Baltic people were deported to Siberian death camps . In 1945, at least 2 million ethnic Germans of East Europe were slaughtered, two million were raped, and 12-15 million ethnically cleansed...
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Stalin was an amazinhunk.
Masher
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Originally posted by julle
The 20th centurys worst crime by now virtually forgotten was Stalins Red Holocaust in Eastern Europe in the 1930s and 40s.
And why not of 100 millions or billion? The largest losses at 30-40 years have incurred China in war with Japan. But you it did not know. To you repeat the learnt primitive propagation. Anything another you do not know, and most important to know do not want. You is cosy in your imagination.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Stalin was an amazinhunk.
Masher
Read Churchill. Or you count what as cleverer than Churchill?
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-am-
You're english is much better than my russian, but I still don't understand what you're trying to say . So in the future just speak russian please and we'll ask Baroda to translate it for us .
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Soviet power did all possible things to establish equal rights for Jews that were supressed by the Empire.
One of the best tools the west employed during the Cold War was the withholding of MFN (Most Favored Nation) status based on human rights violations. The Soviet Union did not recieve MFN due in large part to the treatment of Jews. While many emigrated to Israel post 1975, the implementation of huge "Diploma Taxes" made this a difficult proposition at best for these people.
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Tah Gut, I know this story. BTW Russia still doesn't get the MFN status - maybe because of that poor Jews :(
One thing for you to know: Jews were absolutely equal to any nation in terms of emigration. They were only the loudest ethnic group, or just some loud throats who in fact made the regime think of any Jew as of possible dissident or traitor. Western "national politics" didn't change since then: "Radio Liberty" now broadcasts special programms for Caucasus. :mad: What I meant is that before Revolution Jews were really supressed, officially. Have you heard of "settlement line"? Not speaking that Jews were not allowed to work as government employees, study at colleges, etc. Even in times of "Soviet antisemitism" in the 70s Jews never experienced such opression as before Revolution.
Julle, ask your dealer to wrap that stuff in Playboy pages instead next time. I can't ask you to stop smoking it - at this stage it's really difficult to quit. :(
If everything you say is true - I wonder how someone is still alive here.
Straffo, I really liked the joke about Trotskiy ;) Sounds like he was the last Jew in a Soviet government, hehehe ;)
As for "communist workers" - maybe UK suffered from the same problem? Some "commies" in blue collars had such influence on foreign politics? Don't make me laugh!
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Reading this makes me think the developer of am's translator software is the biggest war criminal ever.
Come on quit poking the gimp with the sharp stick now.. Let him be.