Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Octavius on May 30, 2002, 07:26:31 PM
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http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=0205301936090059
Civil liberties groups criticized the move. But President Bush said, ``We intend to honor our Constitution and respect the freedoms that we hold so dear.''
``The FBI needed to change,'' said the president. ``It was an organization full of fine people who loved America but the organization didn't meet the times.''
What horse toejam...! "freedoms that we hold so dear" . I'll go out on a limb here.. if you think about it, this is just making legal what the FBI can already do. Sigh... either way, I dont like it.
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Ashcroft said the powers would be used only ``for the purpose of detecting and preventing terrorism.'' Nothing in the guidelines would permit the FBI to routinely build files on people or organizations, he said.
Hmmm... Ashcroft must think that we haven't noticed all the different ways they've found to apply RICO laws or the DMCA.
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worry about what they AINT telling you.
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Would you rather have privacy and be attacked and destroyed with it or would you rather have the people fighting for you be able to stop and kill the bastards before they loose a dirty nuke on Manhatten or the capitol, or your hometown.
Screw it, these bastards of allah know they can use our own laws against us and they will. I say give the government whatever it takes to blow these MuFUs away. I live a clean life and have nothing to hide from and have no fear of my government "when its fighting to protect me, my family, my community, my state, my nation".
Kill them before they kill us. Civil rights come AFTER national security. Otherwise we give them the rope (our civil liberties) they will use to hang us. Sad but true fact of life.
If there is another absolute way to insure our absolute survival without spying on potentiol adversaries within our own borders then please explain how to do it. Im listening.......
One thing is for sure, our defense agencies failed us on Sep11 to the tune of about 3000 Amercian lives. If indeed our own civil liberties protected, directly or indirectly, these lunatics then we had better figure out some way to be able to spy on these enemies within our own borders. Sadly, some, if not many, of these people probably are US citizens. They must be found out and stopped before the casualty list numbers in the tens of thousands or more.....
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Kill them before they kill us. Civil rights come AFTER national security. Otherwise we give them the rope (our civil liberties) they will use to hang us. Sad but true fact of life.
What's really scary is that some people actually believe this tripe.
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On March 23, 1775.... Patrick Henry spoke words that still ring true...
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No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!
They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!
I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE; BUT AS FOR ME, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
:mad:
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THATS IT!... I'm checking my sheep for hidden microphones...
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Weren't the Republicans the party that talks so much about less government interference? Did I miss a memo?
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I wonder who or what groups will effectively monitor the FBI to ensure they won't abuse their new-found powers.
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Originally posted by easymo
Weren't the Republicans the party that talks so much about less government interference? Did I miss a memo?
They were talking in generalities, but only in government interference in big business and less taxes. They seem to look at the ACLU as a nuisance and not really necessary. They want to curtail a woman's right to choose. They want increased spending for the military (there can never be too much money spent on defense), and the intelligence community (even though most of the money seems to go to covert ops rather than intelligence gathering). They want less spending on 'social' programs (to help balance the budget).
The liberals seem to be opposite to the above. They tend to want to throw money at 'social' programs (even if ill conceived and executed). They will generally support the raising of taxes to pay for all the programs.
Or so it seems. (and yes, the above are generalities.)
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Hit the deck, the black helicopters are coming!!!
:rolleyes:
We, law abiding citizens, have nothing to fear, do you???
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Originally posted by Eagler
Hit the deck, the black helicopters are coming!!!
:rolleyes:
We, law abiding citizens, have nothing to fear, do you???
Sure you do, your civil liberties are being chipped away. If the US keeps this up, then law abiding will become irrelavent.
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Uh...You guys are just now getting concerned this is happening?
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Hmmmmmmm, can anyone think of a "law abiding ctizen" who has been persecuted for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time? Or even standing up for their rights as an American? Anyone here ever read about Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy?
"I've got nothing to hide" may be true for now. Many many of those who were blackballed and even imprisoned by the HUAC thought exactly the same thing.
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Living in the United States is like being caught in a time warp.
Some of us are still fighting the Civil War, some of us are still marching for civil rights, some of us still battle over elections past...and like it or not, all of us are in this together.
In discussions of this kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend.
American government by design rests on the solid basis of *THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE*. National power is intended to flow from this basis of legitimate authority.
It is generally recognized that the government commonly intends the Public Good. In regards to errors governments can make, history demonstrates they don't always reason right about the means of promoting the Public Good.
The Constitution should be the standard of construction for new law, and wherever there is an evident conflict, the law must give way to the Constitution.
LIFE, LIBERTY & THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ARE THE PRINCIPALS OUR CONSTITUTION IS BASED ON!
The dissolution of these principles will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the enemy. If the people are vigilant in guarding these principles they cannot be subdued, but if they lose vigilance they become ready to surrender their liberty to the first external or internal invader.
History shows that natural progression is for liberty to yield and government to accumulate power, fondness for power is ingrained in most men, and once power is acquired it is commonly abused.
There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent uprisings.
Honor, justice, and humanity, forbid us to surrender the freedom which we received from our ancestors.... and which future generations have the right to receive from us.
The US will crumble under the infamy and guilt of resigning future generations to the wretched life which inevitably awaits them if we saddle them with hereditary bondage.
We are the ultimate guardians of our liberty, if we expect to reap the blessings of freedom we must support these principles....... the happiness and liberty of ours and future generations depends on it.
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Originally posted by weazel
On March 23, 1775.... Patrick Henry spoke words that still ring true...
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No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!
They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!
I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE; BUT AS FOR ME, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!
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If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
:mad:
Weazel we've had our moments, but I agree 100% with your statment. ....
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If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
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I dont buy into this low quality rational at all.....Pure Self defeatism. It provides aid and comfort to the enemy as far as Im concerned. Bad mojo.......
I find that the FBI and other intelligence agencies must be able to discover and defeat terrorists within the borders of the United States. I support whatever action is neccessary to defend the United States. The ACLU would seem to prefer to allow the terrorists to be protected and in fact hidden from discovery as a matter of civil liberties. Screw that. What good are civil liberties if the nation is effectively destroyed? Martial law will likely occur as a result of a large strike against this country carried out from within our own borders. How then will the bill of rights be preserved?
A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.
Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.
sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time. Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.
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I think the FBI/CIA - your local police (put your fav law enforcement agency here) seems to be dam if they do and dam if they don't by some of you all...
There is a cost for our freedom, nothing is free
Take your anger out on those who caused this latest mess, not those who are appointed to protect us from THEM!
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Maudib, Eagler, the cost of freedom is your freedom?
The what the heck is the point of stuggling for freedom in the first place. So people like you can hand it over at the first opportunity?
Are you suggesting that you should give up your rights as a temporary measure? The "War Against Terror" is a protracted thing. How long are you willing to give up your rights for. Don't you think that perhaps your goverment and it's agencies might not be to thrill about giving up these powers.
Would you be willing to give up your right to bear arms. After all firearms are rediculusly easy to get in the States. The terrorists could outfit a whole army.
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
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A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.
Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.
A man with a tiny noodle and poor arguements might say:
sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time. Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.
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I guess what I'm saying is that the actions taken today and more than likely those that have to be taken in the future, have not nor will not change my lifestyle, my day to day, one bit. I will feel better knowing at least the gov is taking steps to protect my family and I from ppl who'd love nothing more in this world than see me & mine dead and are willing to die to that cause...
Those of you complaining about the new "powers" the FBI have today that you don't think they had yesterday, what would you suggest they do???
The libs squeak about these actions out of one corner of their mouths while squeakin out the other corner that the current admin did not do enough to stop 9/11.
Like I said, dam if they do and they are dammed if they don't ... can't have it both ways. Thank your friendly terrorist for that.
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Thawn said:
A man with a tiny noodle and poor arguements might say:
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thrawn, You add absolutely no value to the discourse here
with such comments.
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Thawn said:
A man with a tiny noodle and poor arguements might say:
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thrawn, You add absolutely no value to the discourse here
with such comments.
And you think this does?
sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time. Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.
:rolleyes:
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Yeah but I guess you dont see the difference.
I also think sandman can defend himself just fine without you.
You know, you had some valid points but Im not even going to waste any more than the time its already taken to type this on your account.
Cyas
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Here's what they're afraid of happening with the new powers...
"They are using the terrorism crisis as a cover for a wide range of changes, some of which have nothing to do with terrorism,'' said James X. Dempsey, deputy director of the Center for Democracy and Technology. Dempsey predicted that one new tool, the power to mine commercial databases, will be used in drug and child pornography and stock fraud and gambling and "every other type of investigation the FBI does.''
So catching drug dealers, child porn rings, etc is a bad thing?
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Yeah but I guess you dont see the difference.
I also think sandman can defend himself just fine without you.
You know, you had some valid points but Im not even going to waste any more than the time its already taken to type this on your account.
Cyas
Pretty much figured that would be your reaction. Did your mom tell you to get of the computer?
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Originally posted by Nifty
So catching drug dealers is a bad thing?
Well... if he's selling me weed... yes!
:)
Seriously, how can you people believe these new laws are anything more than a front for what they've been doing anyway?
I'm not saying it's right, it's wrong as hell. It's just now their making laws for it.
Think on this before you believe these new laws are a good thing- they had the information to stop the World Trade Centers attacks- but all the information pointing to these things wasn't in the right place. It was scattered about and there weren't any RED flags going "Ding! The first use of airplanes as missles will take place very soon."
You think these new laws do anything to help the FBI, and other investigating bureaus/agencies, to get MORE information on potential terrorist attacks?
Phew, you are one dilluded individual if you believe that. It only makes it legal for the government to spy on it's citizens.
So much for "privacy of your own home", huh?
-SW
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
====
I dont buy into this low quality rational at all.....Pure Self defeatism. It provides aid and comfort to the enemy as far as Im concerned. Bad mojo.......
I find that the FBI and other intelligence agencies must be able to discover and defeat terrorists within the borders of the United States. I support whatever action is neccessary to defend the United States. The ACLU would seem to prefer to allow the terrorists to be protected and in fact hidden from discovery as a matter of civil liberties. Screw that. What good are civil liberties if the nation is effectively destroyed? Martial law will likely occur as a result of a large strike against this country carried out from within our own borders. How then will the bill of rights be preserved?
A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.
Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.
sandman,
Come back with something worthwhile to say this time. Like perhaps a valid point of view, if you have one.
What good is a Nation if civil liberties are destroyed? Your logic is laughable Little Mouse. "I will sacrifice our freedom so freedom survives".:rolleyes: Are you serious?
Civil liberties are too often taken for granted. What are you willing to sacrifice for the good of your security? What about your ability to travel? Your private phone conversations? Your ability to discuss subjects on this board? Who should make the determination where the line should be drawn and we say ... "Nope, thats a freedom I want to keep". Do you want John Ashcroft deciding which freedom you maintain? I sure as hell don't!
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
If Americans are so frightened, or our nations spirit has fallen so low that we find curtailment of our civil liberties acceptable, then we have already lost the war....and deserve whatever fate waits for us.
====
I dont buy into this low quality rational at all.....Pure Self defeatism. It provides aid and comfort to the enemy as far as Im concerned. Bad mojo.......
I find that the FBI and other intelligence agencies must be able to discover and defeat terrorists within the borders of the United States. I support whatever action is neccessary to defend the United States. The ACLU would seem to prefer to allow the terrorists to be protected and in fact hidden from discovery as a matter of civil liberties. Screw that. What good are civil liberties if the nation is effectively destroyed? Martial law will likely occur as a result of a large strike against this country carried out from within our own borders. How then will the bill of rights be preserved?
A wise man may say today:
I will sacrifice what liberty neccessary in the war today, so that freedom survives for all of us tomorrow.
Rather than a truly stupid moron perhaps saying:
We will all die for civil liberties today, tomorrow will not matter but at least we will have felt good.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO the men who created our government would strongly disagree with you if they were alive today.
Chances are they would be plotting a revolution to replace a government that has lost touch with its citizens and strayed from the path they set us on 225 years ago.
Consider the long term implications of the changes being made, since Chimpy became president Constitutional guarantees and laws passed to protect the US from presidential abuse of power have been under steady assault.
If you consider the age of the quotes below its amazing how relevant they are, our country was truly blessed by the vision of these men.
One of these days America will wake up, hopefully before its too late.
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"Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge; I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers.
But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever.
If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.
Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty. There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration of virtue. These amiable passions, are the "latent spark" ... If the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling the differences between true and false, right and wrong, virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of mankind apply than to the sense of this difference.
A constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people, and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming freemen; a general emulation takes place, which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals to be general. That elevation of sentiment inspired by such a government, makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition which is inspired by it makes them sober, industrious, and frugal.
Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it"
John Adams
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"We have heard of the impious doctrine in the old world, that the people were made for kings, not kings for the people. Is the same doctrine to be revived in the new, in another shape -- that the solid happiness of the people is to be sacrificed to the views of political institutions of a different form? It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object.
The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.
Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression.
All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree"
James Madison
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"The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy.
They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
It is very imprudent to deprive America of any of her privileges. If her commerce and friendship are of any importance to you, they are to be had on no other terms than leaving her in the full enjoyment of her rights.
Where liberty dwells, there is my country."
Benjamin Franklin
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it"
Thomas Paine
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Some of you, their gonna get ya crowd, should calm down.
Must be nice to spout off criticizing the US Govt., taking what steps they feel will allow them the best opportunity to prevent deaths of innocent American citizens.
I do not see you defenders of civil liberty offering what you might do to protect Ameican interests. Very typical.
These changes will effect 99.9% of the general public in no way as to violate their civil liberties....fear mongering is what you've offered up.
Tell me now and in specifics, which of you have launched night ops or walked thru jungles being eaten by insects, laid in a rice patty for days pinned down by sniper fire.....have you cut a mans throat in the darkness of night?
You just sit here spewing crap like you know what your talking about....talks cheap.
Whatever changes in law are made to enable us to curtail dangerous activity can just as easily be changed again....after December 7th, 1941, life was not the same in our nation and neither were our civil rights. It was not the end of freedom or our democracy.
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"There is a cost for our freedom, nothing is free"
The price of freedom is constant vigilance. I am hardly a lib. But IMHO, the business of our armed forces, and CIA, is to be vigilant about forien enemies. It is the business of the rest of us to be vigilant about the quest for, and abuse of, power. Buy our own politicians.
The founders made it fairly clear, that there was to be no federal police force. Then the country was beset by outlaws. There was such an outcry about this. And a perceived threat so great. That it allowed a transvestite to began a federal police force. It was claimed, at the time, that this force was temporary. Just to meet the threat. Today, the FBI is one of the largest tax funded bureaucracies. Its power has already been abused by Nixon, and other politicians.
In the end, we have to watch those bastards every second. They will use any excuse to grab more power at our expense.
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Originally posted by Rude
Must be nice to spout off criticizing the US Govt., taking what steps they feel will allow them the best opportunity to prevent deaths of innocent American citizens.
Must be nice blindly following the Government's lead.
If no one questions the Government, then who's to stop them if they take away all our rights?
Think about it.
-SW
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Tell me now and in specifics, which of you have launched night ops or walked thru jungles being eaten by insects, laid in a rice patty for days pinned down by sniper fire.....have you cut a mans throat in the darkness of night?
Luckily I haven't had to do any of those things. My father did, along with many other men that I regard as heroes. If you are one of them I salute you also Rude.
Remember, however, what it was you were fighting for. I cherish the ability to critisize our government, and I thank you and others like you for giving me the freedom to do so.
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Holy crap, Let it be known through out the world that you can't have an opinion unless you have eaten bugs, sat in a rice field and cut someone's throat....uh Rude, do you have to do all these things at the same time?
Hell I'm not even a US citizen, doesn't stop me from trying to be well informed and having an opinion though.
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I guess this means that Jesse Ventura is our most qualified leader.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
What's really scary is that some people actually believe this tripe.
So Sandman,..what's your solution?
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The point is this....as Americans, we have a responsibility to keep an eye on our leaders and continue to do so....it is at the same time our responsibility to give of ourselves when called to do so.
If our leadership fights with a stick while our enemies fight with guns, the end result is elementary. The rules of engagement must be changed or we all will be posting about how awful it is that 2 million of our citizens have died during the next attack. At that time, the same voices will be blaming the Feds for not protecting them....then you will know fear, not this tripe about lose of rights. Our great nation now affords the criminal more rights than the victims in some cases, brought on by distorted thinking and inept lawmaking.
I have not served as my initial example showed, but relatives and friends have...their opinions of how some of you post have been met with the shake of a head or a mild comment stating how having paid no price, has given you such strong opinions, especially remarks from those who reside on foreign soil, telling Americans how to think and live.
I personally am willing to give the Feds what authority they seek, to insure that my wife and four kids are safe in my country...and if that means giving the Feds more freedom to track down and catch those who want to bring harm to us, so be it. If you want to imagine that our core civil rights will disappear in the process, than you are more simpleminded than I first believed.
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When I was at the Defense Language Institute, there was a SEAL in my class. Petty Officer Ebersol. He was a very cool guy. Anyhow, he used to tell sea stories, and he told me that the worst part od BUDS was the constitutional law class.
-Sikboy
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"Must be nice to spout off criticizing the US Govt., taking what steps they feel will allow them the best opportunity to prevent deaths of innocent American citizens."
It's the responsibility of every citizen to monitor our leaders and "spout off" when they make serious errors in judgement, its a shame most Americans are so apathetic and too self absorbed to bother.
"I do not see you defenders of civil liberty offering what you might do to protect Ameican interests. Very typical"
The "defenders of civil liberty" your sneering at are performing a critcally important function, without them the US would be a very different place...if it even existed at all.
"These changes will effect 99.9% of the general public in no way as to violate their civil liberties....fear mongering is what you've offered up"
Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001 removed presidential oversight by the citizens of the US, it affects 100% of U.S. citizens and effectively removed the ability to hold him or any other president accountable for gross abuse of power or negligence, this law was enacted due to Nixons abuse of presidential power.
Further Implementation of the Presidential Records Act:
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to establish policies and procedures implementing section 2204 of title 44 of the United States Code with respect to constitutionally based privileges, including those that apply to Presidential records reflecting military, diplomatic, or national security secrets, Presidential communications, legal advice, legal work, or the deliberative processes of the President and the President's advisors, and to do so in a manner consistent with the Supreme Court's decisions in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, 433 U.S. 425 (1977)
Look at the big picture Rude, and contemplate James Madisons warning.
"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations"
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Originally posted by Rude
I have not served as my initial example showed, but relatives and friends have...their opinions of how some of you post have been met with the shake of a head or a mild comment stating how having paid no price, has given you such strong opinions, especially remarks from those who reside on foreign soil, telling Americans how to think and live.
I'll try and and clarify my posts in the future so it doesn't seem as though I'm telling you guys how to live. I'm trying to say how I think you should live.
I live in a country where there are no guaranteed rights, only privledges. I think it's pretty neat that you guys have actual rights and freedoms, and I think its pretty strange that you'd want to give them up.
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In Closing, my final take on those who tremble (http://facstaff.bloomu.edu/jtomlins/Sounds/Roosevelt.wav)
Weazel......
Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001 removed presidential oversight by the citizens of the US, it affects 100% of U.S. citizens and effectively removed the ability to hold him or any other president accountable for gross abuse of power or negligence, this law was enacted due to Nixons abuse of presidential power.
The above Executive Order in no way ties the hands of Congress nor the Supreme Court...you know of these folks don't ya? They represent the people of the United States and have the power to control, yes even the President of the United States.
This kind of manipulation is why I don't frequent the O'Club...just one giant exercise in futility and self indulgence.
BTW Weazel, answer my question pls....what would you do to have our government effectively protect us, specifically relating to our intelligence and facts gathering efforts?
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Rude.
I think your friends are jurking your chain. What you describe above, sounds more like Hollywood, then Vietnam.
In my own experience. I was eatin by bugs but thats about it.
I was on the receiving end of sniper fire. But it was only for about a half hour. Not days. We are a wealthy nation. We wont hesitate to call in gunships. Or if necessary, an artillery barrage, to take out a sniper. I never heard of a unit being pinned down for days by sniper fire. The U.S. Army doesn't do business that way.
Knives dont play a big role in combat. But if needed there are much better targets that the throat. The human mandible is a very thick bone. All someone has to do is drop his chin to protect his throat from a knife. You might still sever one of the main arteries. But that wont keep him from raising hell before he bleeds to death. There are much easier targets on the human body for knife attacks. If you have ever had "the wind knocked out of you" playing football, or what ever. You know that verbalizing, at that point, is damn near impossible. This effect can be reproduced easily, by puncturing the right organ.
As for as night ops. The VC were a gorilla force. The cover of darkness was one of their primary weapons. The only daytime action I ever saw, was the "68 Tet offensive.
I have eaten bugs. But that was the result of riding motorcycles, right here in the good "ol U.S.A..
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The point Ive tried to make and will continue to do is this:
If the Bill of Rights is being used to effectively cover the movements and intentions of enemies who have lawfully attained US citizenship status (which I believe is totally plausible) then what should be done about it? What can be done about it?
Would someone offer up a solution to the above because in my mind this is one of the greatest threat potentiols of a very intelligent and cunning enemy.
Yes, I depend on the Bill of Rights to protect my freedoms just as all Amercians do, but if I am to be killed by enemies of the people effectively using the Bill of Rights as a tool towards my, our destruction, then I am none too happy about it.
What say you?
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I give up
Have fun being afraid of something that will not happen, at least due to the current climate.
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Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001 removed presidential oversight by the citizens of the US, it affects 100% of U.S. citizens and effectively removed the ability to hold him or any other president accountable for gross abuse of power or negligence, this law was enacted due to Nixons abuse of presidential power.
The above Executive Order in no way ties the hands of Congress nor the Supreme Court...you know of these folks don't ya? They represent the people of the United States and have the power to control, yes even the President of the United States
Congress and Supreme Court oversight is also restricted by Section 6 if the party in question finds the request for privilege "burdensome".
Without privilege there is little possibility of uncovering wrongdoing or abuse of power, this smacks of exalted status in a country where all men are supposed to equal in the eyes of the law.
I'm sure an attorney with the financial backing chimpy can provide would bring new meaning to the word burdensome.
Sec. 6. Right of Congress and Courts to Obtain Access.
This order does not expand or limit the rights of a court, House of Congress, or authorized committee or subcommittee of Congress to obtain access to the records of a former President pursuant to section 2205(2)(A) or section 2205(2)(C). With respect to such requests, the former President shall review the records in question and, within 21 days of receiving notice from the Archivist, indicate to the Archivist his decision with respect to any privilege. The incumbent President shall indicate his decision with respect to any privilege within 21 days after the former President has indicated his decision. Those periods may be extended by the former President or the incumbent President for requests that are burdensome. The Archivist shall not permit access to the records unless and until the incumbent President advises the Archivist that the former President and the incumbent President agree to authorize access to the records or until so ordered by a final and nonappealable court order.
"This kind of manipulation is why I don't frequent the O'Club...just one giant exercise in futility and self indulgence."
The only thing futile is your attempt to *spin* this as manipulation,EO13233 (http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-13233.htm) was just the beginning of the assault on the systems checks and balances.
"BTW Weazel, answer my question pls....what would you do to have our government effectively protect us, specifically relating to our intelligence and facts gathering efforts?
Without the intelligence assets required to accurately assess the threat any plans or suggestions I could make would be an exercise in futility.
I feel reasonably comfortable in saying that the major terrorist threat America faces to date come from foriegn entitys.
None of the 9/11 terrorists were US citizens or originated from a homegrown terrorist group.
With that in mind its clear that the current administrations direction is misguided....or their agenda is not what it should or what they claim it to be.
9/11 was tragic and I agree the US must take measures to stop future events of this nature.
I fail to see reason for degrading civil liberty and its relationship to terrorist designs.
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easymo, have you read "The 13th Valley"? If so, can you say how accuratly it portrays Vietam?
My apologies for the hijack.
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Have fun being afraid of something that will not happen, at least due to the current climate.
Your missing the point. This is not something that will happen to us. This is something that will happen to our grand children. These are laws. They wont go away when the current climate changes. When the Politicians grab a little. They never give it back.
Thrawn. Sorry, never read it.
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Yeah....you should let Toad handle the O-Club, his arguments are lucid and accurate, maybe he will give you debate lessons if you ask? :p
Easymo reduced everything I said into two sentences, can you give me some lessons 'mo?
Originally posted by Rude
I give up
Have fun being afraid of something that will not happen, at least due to the current climate.
The point Ive tried to make and will continue to do is this:
If the Bill of Rights is being used to effectively cover the movements and intentions of enemies who have lawfully attained US citizenship status (which I believe is totally plausible) then what should be done about it? What can be done about it?
Would someone offer up a solution to the above because in my mind this is one of the greatest threat potentiols of a very intelligent and cunning enemy.
Yes, I depend on the Bill of Rights to protect my freedoms just as all Amercians do, but if I am to be killed by enemies of the people effectively using the Bill of Rights as a tool towards my, our destruction, then I am none too happy about it.
What say you?
Abandoning the core principals of our nation will have little effect on the ability of terrorists to strike at us, the greatest effect would be on our way of life, becoming a police state is not the answer.
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Providing the FBI with increased capability to stop and reverse likely acts of terrorism versus abandonment of core principles and creation of a police state is quite a stretch givin the unique circumstances since 9/11.
Unfortunately as seems the case here, you did not/could not provide any feasible alternative to increased survielance powers for the FBI.
As for toad, Im fine without his lucid prowess. You did seem to get the gist of what Im asking for. How well this happens depends as much upon your capacity to comprehend as it does for my capacity to explain. Rude cleaned up quite nicely IMO.
Provide me with a realistic alternative to incerased FBI power.
I am waiting.
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nm
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now and before 9/11
As stated nothjing has really changed. For political purpose they are just laying their powers on the table. Sort of a CYA for the CIA & FBI.
Stop being paraniod about the "good guys". If you want to be paraniod, how about the latest threat concerning smuggled surface to air shoulder launched missles into the US??
"Police State" :rolleyes:
LOL - some of you watch to many movies
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An intelligent and lively discussion how did this happen?Personally I think giving the goverment more power is a double edged sword.Used correctly it can be a fine weapon , in the wrong hands it can wreak havoc on all. We should never surrender our right to bear arms however, no matter what."WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS".Keep that in mind.
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Beware for reincarnation of KGB/STASI/GESTAPO, this time in the west.
We do already know the history of those.
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The fact that we can have these discussions is some proof that we can`t be quieted if things get out of hand.The internet is one of the greatest defences we have as a society against "big brother".The genie is out of the bottle,long live the genie:).In this case the genie is the internet.Fear is the real enemy,and I ain`t scared.Don`t you be either `cos you can`t think when you`re scared."If we quit thinking we start sinking"
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I'm glad that in the USA we have safeguards in place to keep governmental agencies from getting too powerfull. At the same time, we need to set the dogs loose on occasion, and this is one of those occasions.
Everybody needs to stay on alert - for the terrorists, and for governmental abuse of power too. Its a balancing act.
(http://srg2000.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/letsrollgif.gif)
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Yes indeed we need to set those dogs loose, big mean snarling ,saliva dripping, going for the throat dogs (pit bull or rottwiellier would be my choice:D )
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Originally posted by 1wingnutone
Yes indeed we need to set those dogs loose, big mean snarling ,saliva dripping, going for the throat dogs (pit bull or rottwiellier would be my choice:D )
What will you think when they maul a toddler?
(Sorry, couldn't help but play this one out) :)
-Sikboy
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as long as it is a terriost toddler not a problem:D
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Today, the FBI. Tomorrow, the world.
Yes, the Evil Atheist Conspiracy is moving ahead quite nicely.
Now if I could only get the 'they're jsut protecting us' crow to kill off the 'hm, this is suspicious' people, our victory would be a certainty.
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Originally posted by 1wingnutone
as long as it is a terriost toddler not a problem:D
Yep.... I think we should immediately profile all Toddlers! Never know what their packin in those diapers!!
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Originally posted by MuadDib of Dune
Providing the FBI with increased capability to stop and reverse likely acts of terrorism versus abandonment of core principles and creation of a police state is quite a stretch givin the unique circumstances since 9/11.
Unfortunately as seems the case here, you did not/could not provide any feasible alternative to increased survielance powers for the FBI.
As for toad, Im fine without his lucid prowess. You did seem to get the gist of what Im asking for. How well this happens depends as much upon your capacity to comprehend as it does for my capacity to explain. Rude cleaned up quite nicely IMO.
Provide me with a realistic alternative to incerased FBI power.
I am waiting.
You want to be safe or do you want to be free?
Freedom comes at a price. The price is that some people will abuse that freedom.
I think it's worth the risk.
Skuzzy asked if I thought that there is another solution. There is. Accept the fact that you and your family is at risk and then go about your life.
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And look the other way as your malls start to explode :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Eagler
And look the other way as your malls start to explode :rolleyes:
OK eagler...answer this question.
How is reducing Americans civil liberties going to reduce the threat?
We all know it is "your average sandsucking raghead terrorist" (your own words) that perpetrated the acts of 9/11.....NOT an American, or groups with ties to American extremists.
Answer:
It won't, it just gives chimpys thugs the means to crack down on Americans that don't toe the *party line*.
If you can't see the long term consequences of this I feel sorry for you.....
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I can see the catastrophic near term consequences if actions such as these are not taken. I think some of the "Liberty" whiners are just daming this Administration either way. If said actions were not, they'd be screaming the admin didn't do enough when the next attack on US soil happens. :rolleyes:
You don't have to feel sorry for me sir :)
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How will clamping down on Americans civil liberties prevent future attacks?
If said actions were not, they'd be screaming the admin didn't do enough when the next attack on US soil happens.
Which begs another question...why didn't they do something BEFORE the 1st attack?
They had all the info they needed to know it was coming, and possibly provoked it with chimpys ham handed efforts at *diplomacy* with the taliban.
I guess he didn't pay the taliban enough to ensure our safety did he? :rolleyes:
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How will clamping down on Americans civil liberties prevent future attacks?
I don't feel they are ....clamping down on MY civil liberites
yep, jump into the "What did Bush KNOW and WHEN did he KNOW IT" gang :rolleyes:
He had a whole 8 months - ur buddies had the precending 8 years
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Originally posted by Eagler
He had a whole 8 months - ur buddies had the precending 8 years
Nevertheless, that should show you that they had the information.
So if they had all the information, then why does the FBI need more power?
Don't answer to "prevent future attacks", because if the information was there this time.. then what stopped 'em from getting all the information into one spot to analyze it? Something, but it wasn't the American people's rights and liberties standing in the way.
-SW
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what "American people's rights and liberties standing in the way"
for Joe six pack are gonna change from the FBI's "new" powers??
Sorry, I just don't see it..... unless:
You are involved in an illegal activity of one sort or another
in which case, if you play you better be able to pay...
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Of course, I'm into all kinds of illegal activities!!! My entire business infrastructure is based around laundering money!!
Or... I don't like having my rights taken away, no matter how insignificant, because it could bite me in the bellybutton someway.
What makes YOU believe that this will lead to the FBI getting more leads and clues, *IF* they had *ALL* the information before Sept 11th, it just wasn't in the right place.
You are side stepping around the issue, the issue isn't why am I so concerned with losing rights... but why am I so concerned that the FBI needs more power if the power they had in the first place that gave them all the information wasn't enough?
-SW
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I don't think they had "all the answers" concerning 9/11 or it could/would have been avoid just as many other attacks I am sure have been but not reported to an already paranoid public
I think the big "committee" investigating the FBI/CIA in DC now will turn into nothing but a witch hunt with someone tied to the stake to burn - - mainly politically motivated as we'll see this Nov and 2 years from then.
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(http://cagle.slate.msn.com/comics/updating/lalo.jpg)
- By Lalo Alcaraz, LA Weekly,