Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on December 19, 2001, 06:22:00 AM
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Following Kieran comments in a more on-topic thread.
Yesterday, A21 was being sieged over'n over by cons from A22. Me and two squad mates decided to take off from A6 in 190A8 (30mm) and make our way towards A22 while recovering air control over A21. We were clearing the way towards 22 and once there we set up a hard deck of 15k and start capping the base killing every plane trying to get out the zone. Then arrived a >20k enemy 190, suposedly an "invincible" D9. Our mandatory command was just to ignore it and keep negating that field to the enemy. The enemy 190 was trying very fast passes recovering his alt after each one. Obviously, none of his attacks had any success and he was unnable to protect his mates. Several minutes later, a rook nikki entered the zone and the enemy 190 decided to slow down and keep lower to have any chance to hit any of us. Almost inmediatelly was HOed and disintegrated by the Nikki ... The result were 12 enemies shotdown (including the "invincible" one), our nikki shot down by field ack and one of our A8 with engine killed by a single long range ping of the ack.
The enemy pilot used just book tactics, zoom&boom, keeping fast, keeping hi, trying to be untouchable, but his eficiency and effectiveness was just NULL. With the actual radar/range icons system, pure B&Z tactics are almost useless.
If instead of a hi 190 the enemy had been a hi SpitIX, the results would had been very different.
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Invincibility and efficiency in any plane is entirely dependent on the pilot.
Case in point, first tour the D9 was out I had a 25/3 k/d ratio and in a single sortie shot down 9 aircraft within 5 minutes.
So if you are going to argue the D9 can not be both untouchable and kill as fast as a SpitIX, well there will always be people like me or Kieran to offer counter-points.
Of course, I suppose the cannons are still broke on the D9 too......
-SW
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In fact I'm talking not just about D9 and SpitIX, but about pure B&Z planes vs mixture or pure T&B ones. The most important key of B&Z is the surprise and in our MA surprise is an accident. If Z&B planes dont want to be just ignored by the enemy, they need to slowdown, go lower and dogfight the enemy to find a good firing solution while risking your last generation propeller fighter, unless you want to invert 3 B&Z planes to kill a single T&B one. In this last case you'll get the kill, but eficiency will be almost NULL again.
Each time I decided to be efficient with my D9, I enter in close fights where my speed advantage is no more a key factor. IMO, faster = less chances to hit even a CV. If you suddenly get into defensive and you want to flee away, then your primary performance key will be acceleration, not top speed. If you had acceleration enough to get separation (vertically or horizontally), then top speed will start to be a factor to keep and even increase the separation.
About D9 guns, IMO, they are just as they always have been.
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Man-
You are currently 206/29 k/d in the 190D-9.
You are currently 60/7 k/d against the Spit IX.
You have over 400 kills this tour.
You are ranked 7th in fighters.
You fly mostly LW.
I forget, why did you want to perk the Spit IX?
Edit: Odd, one page has you at 309, the other 407.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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More fat to chew on:
The Spit IX has 14,721 kills, 15,242 deaths.
It has killed the 190D-9 a grand total of 266 times.
The 190D-9 has 4,994 kills, 3,196 deaths.
It has killed the Spit IX 413 times.
Yes, the Spit has an enormous amount of kills, but it also has an enormous amount of deaths. Spits dive into furballs, twisty-turndy and die. 190's bust through furballs and live.
You can't wash it any other way, the 190D-9 is both more efficient and more invincible than the Spit IX.
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Every newbie flies the spitIX it would seem, or the p51 so those numbers really dont prove much.
Surviving a conflict should be much easier in a a9 though. I dont fly it but i know its zoom and e retention are much better.
**EDIT**
I would have to argue he didnt use text book BNZ tactics, he was simply diving then finding a target while he was comming in, which is not text book IMO.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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I see. Two 190A8's were attacking a field, presumably vultching it, a Nikki comes along, and a lone high D-9 gets killed by the Nikki, thereby proving the Spit IX needs to be perked.
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The enemy pilot used just book tactics, zoom&boom, keeping fast, keeping hi, trying to be untouchable, but his eficiency and effectiveness was just NULL. With the actual radar/range icons system, pure B&Z tactics are almost useless.
B&Z tactics within the enviroment which you described are not almost useless. One plane of any type against superior numbers can yield similar results. From what you described, the D9 pilot did not know what he was doing.
Our squad yields high kills using the methods which you described above. The D9 is even more lethal than the Pony for such engagements. You need to possess the gunnery skills as well as utilizing B&Z tactics to have success. If the pilot cannot aquire the shot, how do you expect a level of success in any ride, especially a D9?
I always enjoyed much more success in the Dora than I ever did in a Mustang. I just prefer killing LW iron and driving American steel.
I disagree with your example and your statement. Don't care to argue, I simply disagree. :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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all id like to know is what does more invincible mean?
it either IS or it ISNT right? :D
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mandoble mandoble .....
result could be exactly same if that lame whitch cant BaZ were in spit.... if some cant aim, then doesnt matter if he fly D9 or IX.....
if you are way higher then enmy and you are alone then you have no chance to kill if they working together.
why ?
because when you dive on 1, he is diveing as well and rest of enmy are still climbing... no way to make a kill if you are alone and lower enmy are expirienced and working together.
so this is not reason to flame spit IX ;)
if it were spit IX im sure that 1 of them will slow him down, and rest of your friends will gang bang him. Because i didnt see any spit IX keeping BaZ... they will lose patient soon or later. Thats my guess :)
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Good point, Hazed, but within the context of the argument it makes sense. ;)
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Ordinarily, AmOn, you'd be right about the numbers WRT to newbies. The problem is Man has presented a case where he contends that basically any newbie can up in a Spit IX and rack up the kills. The total k/d ratio therefore serves to refute that argument. In fact, almost twice as many Spit IX's fell to D-9 guns as did D-9's that fell to Spit IX's.
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MANDOBLE,
I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say in your original post.
It sounds to me like that 190 Driver didn't know what he was doing. Or maybe he had a bad connection that hurt his gunnery.
You let me get in that situation with a decent connection and I'll spoil your attacks.
Invincibility vs. efficiency?
The D9 isn't exactly invincible. A good Pony or Spit IX driver can be quite deadly against even a great Dora Driver.
It's all about SA and E managment.
If your opponent is better, then you're SOL.
It doesn't matter what plane you talk about, if you don't know how to match your aircraft's status to your attacker's posture, then you will die.
If you are aware and know how to counter, then you will live longer and get more kills. This can make you appear invincible, but you're really just beeing efficient.
That is all that Rude does in that blasted Pony. He know's it's E capabilities and maintains them. Put him in another plane and he kinda stinks :). Until he flies it for a couple days...then look out! :D (couldn't resist the chance to poke at Rude :D :D :D)
Oh well, I guess I used up my 2 cents.
Viper
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Sky-
The background for this goes something like this; a few days ago, Man and I discussed (in a perk thread) the need to unperk the Ta, but prior to that discussion Man had suggested the Spit IX needed to be perked in the MA. The two thoughts juxtaposed as they were seemed absurd, and we have been discussing this on and off since.
He contends that a TnB plane has all the cards, I contend the BnZ plane does.
His argument revolves around kills per time. He contends that, in his perception, it is much easier to be successful in a Spit IX than a 190D-9. I contend that only within a specific environment is the Spit IX successful, and if he keeps the D-9 out of that environment there is nothing the Spit can do- hence the invincibility of the D-9. The Spit on the other hand must wait for the D-9 to screw up or run low on gas, otherwise he will eventually fall to the D-9 guns. The Spit cannot run from most engagements, and once below the D-9 is in serious trouble. The D-9 can virtually run away at any time, so long as he doesn't get himself too low on E to begin with.
Making sense?
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Neg Kieran, we were not vulching, just maintaining 15k and attacking any enemy trying to get out of his field ack. The rook nikki arrived at low alt, almost lower than us and after a lot of unsuccessful attacks of the higher 190. We were not trying to get alt advantage over than 190, we were simply ingnoring it and easily evading it when in his dives. He knows that if he want to deffend his lowers mates his only chance was to slow down and fight and he did that at the time our nikki was near the base just to be HOed by a quick reversal or the nikki. A higher SpitIX, probably, would had much more success in the defense of his lower mates.
Basically, what I mean is that if D9 want to be untouchable, it will be, but will be as untouchable as ineficient. If you want to be eficient with a D9, then you'll be very very touchable. In my case, I need a very good position and a range of 250 yards of less to be able to put a solid burst in the enemy. With hispanos, a single lucky 700 yards ping is a sure critical damage, spray a bit, pray a bit and work done.
A last point, this is my perception that D9 has much worse control at hi speeds than anyother 190 version, as well as slower roll rate. I'm rarely able to follow a diving spit, not due trim problems but due very violent vibrations while keeping similar speed than the Spit in a long dive.
60/7 vs SpitIX? Then I want it perked cause I'm bored of killing it :D
Seriously, we actually have almost 1 spit of every 4 fighters (counting only fighter deaths). The reason of that overusage is not just that spit is easy to fly for newbies. Zeke, Hurri, C202 and 109F are also extremely easy to fly (all of them marginally used). The main reason is that Spit is a deadly plane, a very efficient one for our kind of arena, IMO, much more efficient than D9 will be the monster that historically was while spits IX and V will be just mediocre planes.
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PERK THE SPITS! ALL OF THEM!
no wait...
PERK THE La-7!
oops.. sorry...
PERK THE P-51D!
jeez.... my mistake...
ah heck... getting time to sing again, isn't it? :D
mi mi mi mi mi... hmmmmm
"Perk 'em all, Perk 'em all"
:D
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The "invincible" D9 was me. Wasn't a D9
though (A5)... Never even noticed that
Niki, huh. Had enough business with you
guys. I was in fact running all I could
from a P38 (don't know who that was), and
if the niki wouldn't have HOed me, the P38
would have got me... :mad:
I was quite surprised when you first got
to our field. You were flying in a formation
of 3 190's, and at much higher alt than I
was. Took you less than a minute to get me.
Difficult to evade 3 diving 190's... :)
But hey, the new CT is on it's way. We won't
have to worry about such dweebery anymore. ;)
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Originally posted by EagleC:
mandoble mandoble .....
result could be exactly same if that lame whitch cant BaZ were in spit.... if some cant aim, then doesnt matter if he fly D9 or IX.....
they never let me get within gun range... :rolleyes:
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<S> Very well resumed Kieran.
It is very simple. What is more important in our MA? Kills per time or kills per death? We have an unlimited plane generator, so deaths are not as critical as delay between kills.
A typical example:
Pilot A - 100 flight hours, KD 6/1, 150 kills
Pilot B - 100 flight hours, KD 2/1, 500 kills
Pilot A personal score will be better, ok, but whitch one has had the biggest impact in the arena? Obviously, pilot B.
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iceydee, neg, you werent that 190, but there was another one in a previous visit to A22. That 190 (probably you) was killed quickly, as a C205 and two spits, then we return to refuel and A22 put again some fighters near A21.
I'm refering to the second visit to A22 (we reloaded four times, the last one with only one 190A8). This time there was not any rook P38, only 3 rook 190A8 and several minutes later a single rook nikki flying low Hoing and killing the 190 and then being killed by the field ack.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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I contend, what is more important in the MA is that folks have fun...wild concept eh?
Pilot A personal score will be better, ok, but whitch one has had the biggest impact in the arena? Obviously, pilot B.
That logic is flawed. killing 3 enemy in 1 min, or killing 5 enemy in 20 minutes...the presence alone of enemy planes alive and a threat, will impact the arena. You dying in one minute and then leaving the fight to grab back to the fight has no impact at all.
What would have the most impact in the MA, would be if those who feel it constantly necessary to tell others how to participate in the sim, would take that same time and invest it in improving their skills. That would yield better fights rather than better dialogue.
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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"I was in fact running all I could
from a P38"
Typical waffleboy tactic. Horrido :)
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Hey, I think we've both made some points. Really, we just seem to view the D-9 results differently, even though we use the same data.
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Any form of 190 may be flown aggressively with a great deal of success. It needn't furball with the Spits, but it surely deserves to be flown better than simply grabbing alt and blowing through furballs looking for targets of opportunity. Nath flies 109s and 190A8s very aggressively and manages respectable K/T scores every tour.
It's not so much what you fly as it is how you fly it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Nath flies 109s and 190A8s very aggressively and manages respectable K/T scores every tour.
Flew, Nath flew the 109's and 190's well every tour...
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Flew, Nath flew the 109's and 190's well every tour...
Nath's still around; he flew in Big Week. He's on hiatus from AH while geekily obsessing over Dark Age of Camelot these days.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
Nath's still around; he flew in Big Week. He's on hiatus from AH while geekily obsessing over Dark Age of Camelot these days.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I got to level 9 in Camelot and haven't logged in since. Immensely boring game of leveling, IMO. AH kicks Camelot's butt. ;)
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I get that uneasy feeling when I see:
P-51s
Fw190s
Spits
Above me.
I also get that feeling when I see an La-7 anywhere.
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ok maybe wasn't. Just sounded like it
with what you described. And I know you was
in the area Mandoble, since you killed me
when you first got there... :mad:
I was trying to BnZ you guys for a while
from 20k. But it didn't take many dives
until you had me down low. :(
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It sounds to me like MANDOBLE agrees with the early war Japanese assesment of what is valuable in fighter performance and disagrees with what the Germans and Americans thought was valuable.
This begs the question, why do you fly German aircraft, MANDOBLE?
It seems that Japanese aircraft are much better suited to your assesments of what makes a good fighter.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I get that uneasy feeling when I see:
P-51s
Fw190s
Spits
Above me.
I also get that feeling when I see an La-7 anywhere.
I get that uneasy feeling too -- boredom.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The result were 12 enemies shotdown (including the "invincible" one), our nikki shot down by field ack and one of our A8 with engine killed by a single long range ping of the ack.
How many of the planes shot down were spitfires?
12 planes shot down by 3.... and you're arguing that 1 plane would have made a huge difference if it had been a spit instead of a 190? How much of a difference do you think it would have made if it had been a different pilot in the 190?
AKDejaVu
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Karnak, when I talk about Spit or D9 I talk about them in our MA, not in a 1944 theatre. Germans and Americans designed adecuate planes for their purposes: intercept buffs/ protect buffs. The main target for the germans where to kill these buffs and to protect the main attack aircrafts (190A8). In the case of americans, the target was to protect the buffs along all the way to his target. Also, neither americans nor germans had inflight radar nor range icons preventing them from being attacked by surprise using real boom&Zoom tactics. Really different missions and really different environment than our MA. In the other hand, the CT is a very different place where Boom&Zoom planes shine over TurnnBurn ones.
Why I fly german iron instead N1KJ, Zeke or Spit? Well, I simply have no interest into them, I dont like the turn'til puke fighting way. Why I fly mainly 190 instead 109, being 109 much more adecuate for our MA? Why to fly 190 instead P51/P47? Basically because, IMO, 190 is more challenging, more interesting. It has nothing to do with a byasing about the nationality of each plane.
AKDejaVu, the 12 victories where achieved in four assaults to A22, go-rearm-go. In one of these incursions there was a hi 190 unable to protect his lower mates. What I said is that a hi spit would had been more effective deffending them than the 190. The pilot of that 190 followed the B&Z rules, trying to keep safe all the time. And he was success at this until he decides to enter in close fight. While he was using B&Z we knew all the time where he was, his range and relative speed. We simply keep much slower than him sending check six each time he dives and negating with no effort at all a firing solution. In the meanwhile his mates were being shot down one by one.
Basically he did well for some minutes, then realized that he must risk his alt and speed to have a chance to fire at us, and he did. At this point he was vulnerable to two of us while trying to track the third A8. When the nikki arrived he was low and not very fast and was easily HOed by the nikki, end of story. Probably a more agressive 190 pilot would have dead much earlier. In the other hand, a single spit with E advantage could manage to defend itself from 3 A8 in a much more agressive way, forcing all of us to engange him instead targeting and killing the lower cons.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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MANDOBLE,
I fly all the aircraft in AH, and so far as I can tell, you haven't the foggiest idea of what balance is.
The tactics that were used by the P-51s and Fw190D-9s in WWII against fighters work fine for me in AH. Based on your K/D ratio they seem to work fine for you too. I don't know what you have against Spitfires, but you have made some truly moronic statements while arguing your position. You argue that the Spit is better than the D-9 because it turns better and completely dismiss the D-9's advantages of speed, climb, range and ammo endurance.
I like Spits. In AH I sometimes fly them, but if my life were really on the line and I had the choice of the non-perk aircraft in AH, you couldn't get me in a Spit or N1K2-J for any amount of money. My choices would be between the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, P-51B and P-51D.
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In one of these incursions there was a hi 190 unable to protect his lower mates. What I said is that a hi spit would had been more effective deffending them than the 190.
Ah... then you are just making a completely baseless generalisation. Nevermind... troll away.
AKDejaVu
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Funny, I like this approach more: when I fly a plane, I better don't see enemies flying it. How could I otherwise exploit differences and annoy the enemy ? ;).
Perk 190s and keep them perked. Don't perk the Spitter. So fun killing them.
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...but if my life were really on the line and I had the choice of the non-perk aircraft in AH, you couldn't get me in a Spit or N1K2-J for any amount of money. My choices would be between the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, P-51B and P-51D.
Truer words were never spoken. This is the cream of the non-perk crop.
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Ok time for my first post
This tour so far in my SpitV i have 4 kills of the fw190D for 0 deaths.
Mandoble isn't going far enough, my stats show that the SpitV must be perked!!! :rolleyes:
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You argue that the Spit is better than the D-9 because it turns better
Really? This is really a morronic statement.
Then I argue than C202 is better than D9 cause it turns better also, right?
and completely dismiss the D-9's advantages of speed, climb, range and ammo endurance.
D9 speed advantage is only present at level flight and below 25k. Diving is initially won by spit, substained climb, at most alts is won by the spit. Zoom climb is largely won by the spit. Range is similar. The Spit also keeps its E far better than D9 while mauvering. Spit accelerates faster from lo speeds.
Ammo endurance? Did you forget Spit has TWO hispanos while D9 has 151/20? 700 yards one ping kill vs 250 yards solid burst kills is an enormous difference. Add the fact that pointing the nose towards the target is much more easy in the spit.
AKDejaVu, no matter whitch words I use, no matter the language, you simply dont want to understand what I mean.
So, you guys are sure than 10 spits flying at 20k will be easilly erased by 10 Doras flying at same alt, right? I bet for the spit group.
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No. I maintain that 10 Spits flying at 20K will have to watch what the 10 190D-9's at 20K decide to do. If the D-9's decide to fight- great! If they decide to grab alt and make passes it will be a long day for the Spits.
Send 4 of the D-9's into the Spits, the other 6 punch WEP and climb a bit. Now the Spits can't run, and they have to constantly turn to avoid getting smacked by the high 190's. If a 190 gets in trouble a spiral dive and run is all that is needed to escape.
Conclusion: 190D-9's determines the beginning and end of fight.
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Spit isn't better than the D-9... and the D-9 isn't better than the Spit. It is extremely difficult to kill a GOOD Spitfire pilot when you are in a 190 or a 109. He can just turn constantly and you will never get a shot on him.
On the other hand, it is impossible to kill a good pilot in a 109 or a 190 if you are in a Spitfire. Not even good, just competent enough to know that he is outmatched in a fight, and he can run away from you.
I'd say a 1v1 fight between a Dora and a Spit would basically be a draw, until the Spit ran out of fuel. At that point the Dora could probably kill it pretty easily. Saying that the Dora holds all the cards in a fight isn't really true, because once it actually gets to the fight, the Spitfire iss at an advantage. What the Dora does hold is the means to start and end the fight.
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Urchin-
Fair assessment; however if I'm betting the house, please give me the hand dealt to the LW player, please. ;)
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
<S> Very well resumed Kieran.
It is very simple. What is more important in our MA? Kills per time or kills per death? We have an unlimited plane generator, so deaths are not as critical as delay between kills.
A typical example:
Pilot A - 100 flight hours, KD 6/1, 150 kills
Pilot B - 100 flight hours, KD 2/1, 500 kills
Pilot A personal score will be better, ok, but whitch one has had the biggest impact in the arena? Obviously, pilot B.
I think you're both clouding one VERY important piece of the "What matters" equation. Fun.
Fun = having the best score?
or
Fun = getting the most kills?
or
Fun = flying around chatting for 2 hours and running out of gas over....no kills, but good conversation about nothing?
or
Fun = Finding someone who has chosen to voice an oppinion and give him/her an award for whining?
or
Fun = Creating a terrain that people like to fly over?
or...or...or... Get my point?
What matters in your Spit vs. Dora discussion is not the plane. Hell, it's seldom the plane that wins or loses. It's ALL about pilot ability (provided the connections are good).
I've killed a good many Spits with a Dora and a good many Doras with a Spit.
I've vulched (and vulched well) with Dora, and I've BnZ'd with a spit.
The argument you guys are trying to make is a classic black and white argument and you are missing the colors. :)
When you learn this, you will be able to turn fight a Dora and Boom & Zoom in a Spit.
Viper
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Originally posted by Sky Viper:
I think you're both clouding one VERY important piece of the "What matters" equation. Fun.
Fun = having the best score?
or
Fun = getting the most kills?
or
Fun = flying around chatting for 2 hours and running out of gas over....no kills, but good conversation about nothing?
or
Fun = Finding someone who has chosen to voice an oppinion and give him/her an award for whining?
or
Fun = Creating a terrain that people like to fly over?
or...or...or... Get my point?
Viper
Oops...forgot:
Fun = Finding the best sheep. :D
Viper
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Looks like some people need some regulating. ;)
On a side note, I don't play DAoC for leveling, I play for pvp--unfortunatly the former is paramount to excell in the latter.
www.theregulators.org (http://www.theregulators.org) http://www.camelotherald.com/realms/Merlin/ (http://www.camelotherald.com/realms/Merlin/)
Just a little peek into what 'ol Nath has been up to. Owning as usual. ;)
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nath!
glad to see you still king of 0wn@g3
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Kieran, in this imaginary duel, the 10 spits have all the advantage, they are the ones that will grab alt with superior climb rate at 20k (better substained, much better in zoom). If the spit group put the fight even higher, then they will have also the speed advantage. They are the ones that will decide wether engange or not. The only chance for the Dora group is to use much better tactics than the spits (veterans vs greens) or keep running down all the time.
Sky Viper, sometimes we have fun even being shotdown, sometimes we get bored even scoring kill streaks. This has no relation with the efectiveness of a plane in our MA.
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Man-
My mom can beat your mom up (or, we ain't never gonna see eye-to-eye on this). S! for a spirited debate!
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<MANDOBLE>
I find this really strange about people wanting to perk the spitfireIX and also not introduce the SpitfireXIV.
(Here is my view on the current events on this fourm)
Now we all know that spitfire as the most used planes in the MA. This would be because most new players want to know the best plane to start off with. Most people would write on the text board " Use the Spit". Its because the Spit can withstand and also maintain E effectively. Now to my other point after saying that. Looking at PERKING the spit, LOL< I mean it :). We all know most people will turn to the next best fighter in the MA, that would be 109 190 or the NIK. Next thing will you know it, we will be all back here talking about Perking the NIK or the 190 :). I think the spitfire doods need the SpitXIV i think its pretty unfar to have the large selection of the 109 and also 190 AC and even late war Model AC when the Spit guys cant even get there SpitXIV. It would also turn a lot of heads around in the MA.
Okay! Okay! am i a spitDweeb or is that what you call a pilot that likes flying one single AC. I jumped into a 190G10 and found it a easy AC to live in. Even more so, I jumped into a 109 and found i could rack up a score of 1/10 kill ratio. So i find it hard that people would complain about spits when really spits are out-matched in the MA and the TA. Also to prove my point, why dont we UNPERK the Tempest. oww no its a super plane. I find this kind of funny and also down right sad sometimes. That we spend more time trying to Effectively stop people having fun, because we take away their Fav ride.
if you have read my post you and right now at the end of it, and mostly wondering what i fly. Well i am happy to say i fly the P47 lighting. Also, here is my GameID so you can check on my score. F5bomber <-- dont ask, F6bomber <--- new account. when you enter 30K feet you in my AIR SPACE :) your going to die soon :).
------------------------------------------
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FLY WHAT YOU WANT TO FLY AND DIE THE SAME WAY!
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Does the Spit9 really outaccel the 190D9 in the inital dive? It sure doesnt outaccel the 190A5 and 109G6.
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Grun-
I doubt it, but Man has far more hours in the D9 than I have, so I conceded that possibility. I will add I have NEVER had a problem leaving a Spit in the dust by diving away.
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Originally posted by AKDejavu:
How much of a difference do you think it would have made if it had been a different pilot in the 190?
D9 could've stayed there indefinitely n made lotsa kills imo. I was sitting up 20k the other day, anyone attempted to come up close I kilt them BnZ. Ended up with 16 kills before my puter locked. A2 Mindanao, just me, my little La7 and a big red bar.
Zygote
:D
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Yep, GRUNHERZ, D9 initial dive is slow up to 250 mph or so, then the dive accelerates abruptly and enormously up to 350-400 mph. I see the same effect with 190A versions, they outaccelerate the D9 initially in the dive. I also feel the 190A8 much more controlable than D9 at 450 mph or more.
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Pop Quiz:
Q: What does a LostWaffle engine sound like when you start it up?
A: WHA WHA WHA WHA WHA WHA WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNNNERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RR
-SW
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Man-
I was there with you last night at the center isle (callsign Dolomyte). I was in a 190A5 for comparison. The fights were low, and man is that thing a beast down there! I took the light gun option and was having a ball.
Had a Spit jump my six, I just rolled. He musta been a newbie, because he overshot. It was a simple matter of stopping the roll and blasting him.
Got a couple P-38's. No real trouble, they wanted to loop endlessly. Sooner or later their WEP is gone...
P-51's weren't bad, avoid the pass and watch them run. When they get greedy, you have the acceleration to get them in a situation where they can't get away.
109's are a little dangerous, but scissoring and rolling seems to work.
Even the fearsome Nikki was not too much trouble.
I will spend a lot more low-level time in the A5 for sure!
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Hehnh... this one is kinda like a "Tuesday; I'm hot, but Thursdays I'm not" discussion.
The MA's reality is based on the pilot flying in it's perception of the fight he's about to engage in.. and this perception usually changes the moment that fight concludes..
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Mebbe, Hang, but I can't seem to buy into the "Woe is me, I fly the 190!" mantra, either. I find them delightful.
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MANDOBLE,
What the hell are you doing at 250mph in a D-9?
Never, ever go that slow unless you are coming over the top.
The Fw190D-9 should always have the E advantage when entering a fight. Its speed, climb, acceleration and WEP advantage over the Spit all help it to ensure that it starts faster and higher than the Spit.
That is one of the biggest things I find so laughable about the Luftwaffe fans descriptions here. They all have the aircraft starting on even footing, e.g. the German aircraft pilots have already screwed up.
In the 10 v 10 and 20k the D-9s and Spit IXs have about the same climb rate, about 3,300fpm and 3,400fpm respectively, and the D-9s have the speed advantage of 425mph to the Spit IXs 380mph. Send 4 D-9s in using their speed to harass the Spits and pull them lower while the other 6 D-9s climb and gain a definitive E advantage, then BnZ until all Spits are dead. Remember, your D-9s have 10 minutes of WEP when the Spits have run out of WEP.
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The weakest part in the Dora are it's guns, which aren't adequate for a bnz plane. Defeating a Dora's gun solution doesn't take much. If I know he's there, he just isn't going to hit me (unless I'd happen to be in a buff or a goon). Then he goes zoom, zoom and zoom until it's rtb time or until I nail his bellybutton as it's hanging there in the sky :D
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Karnak-
Pretty much the scenario I saw, too. Look higher up. ;)
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MANDOBLE, What the hell are you doing at 250mph in a D-9?
Fighting. Looking for a firing solution. If you want to kill only opotunity and unawared targets, ok, keep your plane at 400 mph, else you'll need to work for the kill, and nothing easier to evade than a D9 (250 yards as maximum for snapshot) at 400 mph.
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Man-
I do have to thank you. I have rediscovered the A5. Having a ball, think I'll stick with it a while.
As far as our other debate, I think we see the same thing, but interpret it differently. We both know what the D9 can do, but determine success differently. In that way I suppose we will never agree. Hope you haven't taken it the wrong way.
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MANDOBLE,
So what you're saying is "When we use stupid tactics and give away our advantages, the Spit IX is better!"
Well, go find somewhere else to cry because you've talked your way out of all reason.
Just because you like the challenge of using the D-9 in a close dogfight don't go trying to get the Spit IX perked because it is better at doing what it was designed for that the D-9 is at doing what it wasn't designed for.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Just because you like the challenge of using the D-9 in a close dogfight don't go trying to get the Spit IX perked because it is better at doing what it was designed for that the D-9 is at doing what it wasn't designed for.
Karnak has a point. One who wishes to fly the Dora as it was designed to do should ask for the icons to perked, not the better turning planes.
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70% of the air to air fighter kills in World War II were kills in which the victor suprised the victim.
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Karnak, I know you are simply unnable to understand... ...But I'll try a last attempt.
With the actual MA settings (radar, icons, etc), B&Z tactics are useless.
I agree with fdiron, in our environment there are no surprise factor. If you want to kill only unawared greens (you'll always be able to kill 20 greens in a row), your tactics are ok. D9 wasn't designed for our MA environment, D9 was designed for the Europeah Theatre.
190A5 or even A8 are far better suited for MA. Spit is much better suited than any 190.
In other environment D9 would be a deadly foe, here it is a dogfighter (not its role) or a plane to ignore (a 400 mph one).
And about speed, try the next experiment, pickup a D9, climb to 10k and then dive to get 450 mph (look the effects), then repeat the same with a Spit.
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With the actual MA settings (radar, icons, etc), B&Z tactics are useless.
BS.
I have both used BnZ tactics and had them used against me with success.
MANDOBLE,
You are extremely biased. You like only a very limited selection of aircraft and campaign ceaselessly for the advancement of those aircraft. Your statements persist in lacking all sense of fairness and balance. I have never seen you post anything favorable about anything not German. You are part of a small elitist clique focused around German aircraft and I am sick of it. The attitudes that those in this clique take are extremely negative and grating.
fdiron,
That doesn't mean what you imply. 70% of pilots who were shot down were not flying along, straight and level, without a hint that enemy aircraft were in the area. Some were, true, but not nearly 70%.
What that statement means is that 70% of pilots didn't see the aircraft pull in on them in a dogfight, didn't see the guy who blindsided them while they were manuvering for a kill, ect, ect...
It does not mean that the Luftwaffe fans fantasy, no icon arena where nobody can see any detail on direction indications beyond D 1.5 is at all realistic.
Yes, the icons do make it easier to track aircraft around you than reality, but no icons make it far, far, far harder.
I would say that 30 to 40% of the times I get shot down I didn't see the guy until he started to fire.
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Unperked 1944 Spitfire XIV to AH!
:D
Oh, the wailing, whining.. the gnashing of teeth as they bite through their leather undies!
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Karnak, you, as usual, demostrate an absolute and radical lack of undestanding and dialogue capacity and an innate abilty to write "BS" everywhere. If your native language is not english, please, tell me and then I'll understand. I'm really sick of those like you that are unable to understand what they read. If you think I'm biased and that I am part of a small elitist clique, then its obvious you are totally mindblinded.
I'm not writing what I like or what I dislike, I'm only presenting facts. Some of you think D9 is a beast, what I say is that it could be a beast, but not in the MA. And, IMO, you have no idea of how to be success with D9 in our MA (success != K/D).
About using successfuly B&Z tactics, do you really think you are the only one able to do that in D9? There are plenty of greens around to practice it. Now try it against a good Spit pilot.
Ehem... Did you do the 450 mph dive test with Spit and D9?
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From Allied Fighter Aces of WWII, by Mike Spick, 1997, Greenhill’s Books, London
Page 15
“In fighter versus fighter combat the dominant element was surprise. Statistically, in four out of every five air combat victories the victor achieved a position of advantage before the victim became aware that he was under attack. This statement has often been misunderstood. It does not mean that the victim was shot down or even fired at, before he became aware of his assailant, although this did happen in many cases. It is simply that the attacker had reached unseen a position of advantage that was difficult, although no necessarily impossible, to counter.”
As Karnak asserts, bouncing somebody who is looking at another con, or distracted in a furball, etc., etc. is included in what that widely quoted and misunderstood statistic represents. Finger-four and the larger formations were designed specifically to prevent being caught totally unaware by an attack. The belief that this was common presuposes that the flying formations adopted by the major combatants were all utter failures.
Tour 23 stats. K/D
190a5 1.45
190a8 1.07
190d9 1.53
Spit IX .97
190d9 vs. Spit IX 1.45
Clearly the d9 is a more effective aircraft than the other FWs or the Spit IX. Whomever are flying the d9s are doing just fine using B&Z tactics. They certainly aren't achieving a 1.45 k/d vs. the Spit IX by turning with them.
Hooligan
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450mph performance:
Spitfire MkIX:
Roll becomes very stiff, 6-7 seconds to complete a 360 degree roll.
Elevator authority remains good. The aircraft can easily black the pilot out.
Deceleration is rapid.
Fw190D-9:
Roll becomes stiff, 3 seconds to complete a 360 degree roll.
Elevator authority is good, easily blacking the pilot out.
Deceleration is present, but not so much as in the Spitfire.
Additional notes:
The Fw190D-9 reached 450 much more rapidly than the Spitfire with both starting from 300mph.
The Fw190D-9 recovered more altitude when zooming back up from the dive after reaching a speed of 450mph.
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Hooligan, the answer is extremelly simply. Most greens fly spit. A very small portion of greens fly D9. It is like a group of veterans against a group of learning-to-land people.
With the radar, the icons and the check six, only greens are caught by surprise, and most of the time due target fixation. These should count as 0.25 of a kill
;)
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Easy way to settle this all is to add the Spitfire XIV.
in the end this message will mean nothink.
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So the statistics are wrong and you're opinion is right. Thanks for clearing that up.
Hooligan
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That doesn't mean what you imply. 70% of pilots who were shot down were not flying along, straight and level, without a hint that enemy aircraft were in the area. Some were, true, but not nearly 70%.
What does it mean then? If your flying in a combat zone and you are shot down by a plane you dont see, it seems to me that you have been suprised.
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fdiron:
Some people take that statement to mean that the victim was not maneuvering (i.e. asleep at the controls and unaware that any enemy were near). These people argue that since most kills in aces high are not against non-maneuvering aircraft that something is wrong with the game.
What the statement actually means is that the victim wasn't watching that particular enemy at the moment and may well have been maneuvering and engaged with other enemies.
Hooligan
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Hooligan, it seems that the only statistic valid for you is just K/D.
Statistics are much more complex that just that. In fact, K/D mean very little if you want to compare two planes unless you put the same pilots in both. Even then, you are forgetting K/T, K/S and shots per kill.
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Karnak, try the test starting from a 200-250 mph. Each test repeated 3 times.
Mindanao map, A2, Spit and D9 50% fuel, climbing to 10k, setting 250mph and then diving (WEP on) to sea level on the lake, then zomming vertically.
Time to 10k (autoclimb), both 1:18, both climbing at 3900 fpm.
Initial acceleration better in Spit up to 350 mph. Both achieved 400 mph at the same time. It seems both achiveded same maximum top speed (unable to read the speed in spit due limits of the gauge). In the zoom, both achieved 10k again, Spit with better control (both with combattrim).
Same test without the vertical zoom, testing roll and turning:
D9 elevator auth at 500 mph is average.
Spit elevator auth at "about" 500 mph is excelent (blacking out at desire).
D9 roll rate at 500 mph is poor.
Spit roll rate at 500 mph is extremely poor.
In these test, D9 never achieved any real advantage.
Same diving test, leveling at sea level:
D9 outruns the spit due spit decceleration after reaching top speed.
Spit is not as slow as some people think. It is on pair with D9 in a 10k dive.
If you cut the room for the dive, advantage goes to the spit side, try 5k.
Hooligan, no one is saying something is wrong since most kills in aces high are not against non-maneuvering aircraft. In fact, no one is saying something is wrong. I'm simply comparing the effectivity of one plane in the environment witch was designed for against our MA environment.
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190A5 or even A8 are far better suited for MA. Spit is much better suited than any 190.
In other environment D9 would be a deadly foe, here it is a dogfighter (not its role) or a plane to ignore (a 400 mph one).
Gotta disagree with you here Mandoble. There are two things that matter in the MA. Speed is number 1, Turning is number 2. Everything else is secondary.
Speed is listed before turning because in my opinion speed will keep you alive longer. It is also possible to make a fast plane turn better than the average pilot can, while it is impossible for even the best pilots to make a slow plane go faster than an average pilot can.
Our MA is basically a gangbang arena, which is why turning and speed are so much more important than everything else. It is possible for say, a P38, to outturn a 190D9... but it is impossible for the P38 to outturn 5 of them. So in that situation, the P38 is one dead airplane. However, if your friendly P38 gets into a fight with 5 Spitfires, it can run away to fight another day. Or it can run away, climb, BnZ for a while, then run away again.
For this reason, there are two types of dominant airplanes in our MA. One type is the turning type. That would be Spitfires, Nikis, and on a lower scale, F6F's and Zeros. (The Zero is so seldomly used because it is SLOW. For this reason, people use the faster Spitfire instead. For the same reason, people used the N1K2 instead of the Spitfire until it was "nuetered").
The other type is the fast plane. This category includes the La-7, Yak-9U, P-51D, 109G10, 190D9, and tiffie. All of these planes have strengths and weaknesses against the other types, but all have one thing in common. They can EASILY outrun any of the well-turning planes.
Most of the planes in our MA fall into neither category. They could be called the "I fly it because I like the plane category". In this category goes all the German planes except for those listed above, all the American planes except for those listed above (and the F6F falls in here in my opinion), the Italian planes, the Zero, and the British planes not listed above. These planes are basically dead meat in the MA. 1 on 1 they have strengths versus other aircraft, but against the MA hordes they can't run and they can't turn.
Even the turning planes have trouble with getting gangbanged. That is why the "fast" planes have numbers 2 and 3 in the top 3(P-51 and La-7). People don't like getting gangbanged, so they pick a fast plane to run away in.
Anyway, that is my rambling. <S> all, happy holidays.
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", if your friendly P38 gets into a fight with 5 Spitfires, it can run away to fight another day. Or it can run away, climb, BnZ for a while, then run away again"
THAT I disagree with.
It is only true IF the spits get reeal slow, below 200mph and have NO, I repeat, NO room to dive. A p-38 will never outrun a spit if the spit is already at 250mph and/or if the spit has room to dive to its 450mph. The spit retains the high speed MUCH longer than the 38. 38 actually slows down from 500mph to 310'ish in about 6 seconds. The spit oth, doesnt slow down that fast, catches up with the 38, forcing the 38 into a turnfight which it cant win.
I've been flying the spits as of late, I've ran down 38's with ease just by waiting for them to level and try to get separation.. my spit retains the 400 mph while the 38 has slowed down below 350.. a few seconds more im catching up and the 38 either tries to zoom up (which the IX can match easily while staying in gun range) or try to dive away (again, spit accels so good in dive it catches it on many occassions.. determining factor is how fast the spit is).
Its the same issue with the n1k. Only time you will outrun them when coalt/co-e is if you survive a tight & slow sciscor fight with them ON THE DECK, manage to make have their noses pointing away from you and you leveling the 38 and WEPPING the hell outta there in a straight line. Both of them can turn with almost no loss of E and can get a LOT of E by diving a little bit or by turning with nose below horizon. 38 cant match that.
As far as the D9 goes, its a monster. Only its weak guns (compared to the other 190's with almost similar loadouts) make it a problem to fly. Otherwise it can dive mightly quickly and zoom after its horny angel cousin, the 109g10.
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First, Merry Christmas.
Urchin, If I understand you correctly, the speed advantage is vital in our gangbang arena to be able to flee when outnumbered and in deffensive. I agree. But before thinking into flee you'll be closefighting the red ordes. D9 can count on top speed to flee, but not to kill. Cause that I find A8 or A5 better MA planes. Their diving performance is similar to the D9. And, if they survive the dive, both will have speed advantage over spits. In the other hand, both outroll and outturns the D9, and both have much more puch power than Dora.
In the case of P38, I agree with Tac, P38 will have a bad day trying to dive from a spit. In the other hand, P38 is one of the best vertical zoomers in the game, far better than D9 (unless at extreme speeds). D9 is not on par with P38 or G10 in the zooming. Even with a remarkable speed advantage, if a D9 wants to zoom away vertically from a P38, it will need a > 1000 yards separation on the top or will be dead for sure. If it is zooming behind a P38, it will need to close to 250 yards to be able to score hits. Tremendous difference ...
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In real life turn fighters lost speed very quickly and did not reatain it well after dives, its curious how in AH this so much diffrent, well only so after 104 FM change...
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GRUNHERZ, personally agree with you, but statements like yours cant be defended without engeeniering data and a lot of ugly maths.
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Put the right pilot in a D9 and it will do things which you say it cannot.
My pal -DF- in WB's was the best I have ever seen in ten years of this silliness. It did not matter what he flew against or how fast or what alt he was at, he would just kill you. How? He understood the Dora and took advantage of it's strengths one, and secondly, his gunnery was scary good. Mandoble, just because you cannot figure out how to effectively kill in the D9 outside of however you fly her, does not mean that anything is wrong with the Dora or that anything else should be perked. I have never had the thought when fighting another, that this LA7 or that Spit should be perked. Rather, what I think of is who in the world is this or this guy is good.
I play it safe in the 51 and use it's speed while fighting...the D9 would allow me much more success than I could ever hope for in the Pony, simply due to the superior roll rate...that roll rate will allow for faster and more frequent gun solutions than any aircraft offered in this sim. Gunnery is the key...those who possess the ability to actually hit what they aim at will succeed in the D9 much more than other planes, whether they are at 400ias or 250 ias. While this is true in any ride, the D9 will afford more kill options for the pilot who knows how to fly her.
You said that in the MA, boom and zoom tactics relating to the Dora are useless. That statement only says one thing to me....you need to practice :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Rude,
Is your pal -df- = 'Disco Fever'?
If so, tell him Wulfie/Wulf/etc. from WB says hello! 8)
Mike/'wulf14'
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The d9 outzooms the 38 if its above 300mph. Ive had milenko and other 190 drivers get that D9 above that speed and go UP with that monster WEP of theirs.. 38 cant keep a zoom like that.
OTH, on a loop fight, the d9 is VERY chewy :D
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
GRUNHERZ, personally agree with you, but statements like yours cant be defended without engeeniering data and a lot of ugly maths.
Of course not, otherwise we'd have planes all based on second hand reports of people who never even flew them.
Imagine the mess it would be now.
Of course, turn fighters sure seem to be pretty much the same across each game, none of them have this magical energy loss that you THINK they should have.
Tell you what, when you find some factual information regarding this other than "I agree" or "I think", let me know.
Until then, it's just some more crap piled onto the fire just to make it smell worse (and this thread is about as bad as they come).
-SW
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I'm starting to think something is wrong with the english itsef. Is it so much imprecisse language? Or is it so difficult to understand?
Swunfe, who has said something IS wrong with the planes? Are we arguing about the plane modeling?
Posts as emptied of sense as yours are those that produce that smell.
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You yourself "agreed" with this statement by Grunherz:
"In real life turn fighters lost speed very quickly and did not reatain it well after dives, its curious how in AH this so much diffrent, well only so after 104 FM change..."
This implies that the turn fighters are not modelled properly based on some mythical statement that turn fighters lost speed very quickly and did not retain it very well after a dive.
Hmmm, it ain't that somethings wrong with the English language- but you appear to be using that as a scapegoat when someone points out a folly in your arguments/statements.
-SW
[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Mmmmmm, Dorrrra.
Sweetest, best looking, best flying, 10 minutes of WEP cannon uber leather plane made.
Unlike flying alone, wing with a Pony and it's actually hard to get shot down.
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Very good combination Creamo. IMO, better than D9 with D9.
Swulfe, with 1.04 we were advised that the TnB planes were to "suffer" a big boost. I dont know technically the list of changes, but these planes really suffered the promissed big boost. After that version, n1kj2 became a monster. Some months later n1kj2 was tuned down. 190A5 was also a moster and was inmediatelly tuned down. A lack of weight was detected in the F4U and it will probably be fixed too, etc, etc.
While, IMO, we have the best sim on the market, I'm sure we have not the lastest and ultimate FM. HTC is working revising planes and looking for faults. What I dont know is the level of deviation respect the original planes. Assuming that all is "perfect" is a very simplistic possition.
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If you fly a D9 you are starting out with a huge advantage over about 80% of the other players... If you get less than a 1.5/1 K/D in it you are hugely unskilled or unsuited to that plane.
There.. all cleared up.
lazs
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Hey gents, wise Lazs convinced me. Cmon, lets fly D9, if you are not hugely unskilled you'll get an excelent score.
Cmon people, lets fly it, you'll have a huge advantage over 80% of players, you are going to outgun (specially outgun), outaccelerate, outclimb, outturn and, of course, outrun almost everything in the MA at any altitude ...
Lazs, is the other 20% composed by people flying Typhs, Ponys, Las, 109s, f4Us, yaks and P38s?
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Mwahhaah.. im gonna flame more dorka's :D :D
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joer mandoble que manera de liarla :p
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y lo que desestresa? :D :D
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mandoble.. the plane does better than about 80% of the other planes available in the arena. If you can't get a 1.5/1 K/D with it then you are unsuited to flying that plane. There are very few non perked planes that give u such a huge inherent advantage. If you are unable to make use of it's strengths then.... perhaps you should find a plane more suited to your particular skills.
lazs
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Laz speaks the truth. Although you forget most people that fly it have some time in game to account for the guns which indeed need time on target snap shot, which I assume requires some skill.
Where I get my kills, is where P38's do. Merge LOWER,way lower with speed, and zoom up before they realize they are fuct.
That's why your Pony wingman just shreds.
I usually charge for this info, but it's Jesus's birthday.
edit- Send me Pabst Blue Ribbon for your soon MA enjoyment
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[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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P38 can climb away from a spitfire mkIX when using wep.
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lazs, in my personal case, D9 K/D is not the issue. Actually I have a 7.6 with D9 and more than 10 with A8 (does this mean A8 is better?). For me, kills per time and hit percentege are more important factors. K/T indicates the efficiency of the plane while hit percentage indicates the ability to get a good and solid firing possition instead of using spray'n pray tactics at more than 500 yards.
With D9 you'll be able to score a decent K/D sacrifying K/T and HP. My point is that in our MA we have infinite "lives", so K/D is not important. But we have not infinite time to achieve our main goal: take bases and defend bases.
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Sorry, but my english it's very poor. :(
Quizas los k/d no sean algo determinante en la MA, pero si que informan de otros detalles como que tipo de avión te mata más. En mi caso, después de 3 tours, siempre se repiten dos nombres: Spit IX y La 7. Estos 2 aviones se llevan el 25% de mis muertes(14+9 de 94 este tour), y sin embargo sólo representan un 5% de los aviones volables. Mirando tu k/d o los de otros ases observo q
estos aviones os matan muy pocas veces ¿qué coño haceís para libraros de ellos?. Mis tácticas contra los spits suelen consistir en atacarlos por sorpresa si puedo y sino pasar de ellos olimpicamente corriendo o manteniendome alto. Con los La 7 poco más o menos lo mismo, si veo uno mas alto que yo, rezo todo lo que puedo, porque a estós no los puedes dejar en un picado.
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Darkglam, mi problema con los spits y los La7 es que no puedo pasar de ellos, me hierve la sangre al verlos y no paro hasta matarlos o que me maten. El que encuentro mas problematico para derribar sin recibir algun magico ping (un ping = muerto) de sus hispanos es, curiosamente, el SpitV.
Si no me equivoco, lo que sueles volar es G10. Tengo algo de experiencia con el, y mi impresión es que tanto el 190A8 como el 190D9 se adaptan mejor contra el Spit que el 109. La dificultad en cazar un spit estriba en sus giros cerradisimos, giros que no podras seguir ni en 109 ni en 190. Pero lo que si podras hacer es "inteceptar" el giro y disparar alli por donde va cruzarse el maldito ufo. He comprobado que esto es muy dificil de hacer con el 109, pero con el 190, sin ser facil, es factible. Puedes levantar la cabeza lo justo como para tener una capacidad decente de snapshot a 250 yardas. Con los La7 pasa lo mismo, o se ponen a correr y te dejan tirado en la cuneta, o se ponen a girar (o trepar bruscamente). Si estas a la defensiva en un 109 contra un Spit, incluso un 109G6 los deja tirados en una trepada en espiral (cosa que no ocurre en una trepada en linea recta). Contra el La en defensiva la cosa es mucho mas complicada. En un 190 puedes vencerles (con mucha suerte) en unas tijeras, pero en un 109 puedes rezar y poco mas. Lo bueno es que al La le pasa como al 190, no "ve" mas lejos de 300 yardas a nada que se mueva.
Definitivamente, debieron pensar en una cubierta tipo burbuja para el 109.
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mandoble I sorta agree.. K/T is the more important factor for me also. I need a plane that can get in there and mix it up otherwise I will be bored. Planes like the D9 and 51 bore me to death but... they are invincible if flown cautiously and... in a boring fashion... I am just saying that if you want to have what i consider fun then.. maybe you are not suited to the d9 or any of the LW rides for that matter.
lazs
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Man, seems like the problem to you is more one of guns than performance. The Spit IX isn't that good performance-wise, but the guns are excellent. You speak of magic "one-ping" guns, and that part is somewhat true.
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Lazs, I want to achieve both, eficiency and fun, both could be achieved with D9, but flying it as a dogfighter. Those thinking K/D is the more important factor, IMO, are radically wrong. This is just the main reason I think D9 is not a monster into THIS MA.
Kieran, performance and guns are boths critical factors and there is a very close relation between them. Having a death cone up to 800 yards is radically different than having one up to 300 yards. This is clearly noticeable in the case of P38 (not the best climber, not the best diver, not the best turner). P38 just need enough "performance" to put his nose at up to 1 km of the target.
With D9 you need enough "performance" to put your nose at up to 400 yards of the target. In the other hand, if you want to flee from a P38 you need enough "performance" to put your plane 1 km away of the P38. If you want to flee from a D9, more than 400 yards are enough. Now add guns lethality and snapshot capability to the equation.
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Yes, but with the D9 you get out of gun range much faster than with a P38 or SpitIX.
I've done it many times, I just keep my speed above 250MPH and disengage when the situation is not favorable.
-SW
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çSWulfe, much faster doesn't imply much safer.
If the goal is just to negate a guns solution to the enemy, D9 could flee by speed, spit will negate it by turning. The Spit, while turning, is a real danger for the attacker. It has impressive guns lethality, guns range and snapshot capability. It can invert its course in a second and try to HO you or track you in a climb and score a single deadly ping.
In the other hand, the D9, when running, is absolutelly inoffensive to the attacker.
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Yes, assuming the D9 pilot is dumb enough to fly in a straight path.
You can manuever in the same direction you are fleeing by adjusting the direction very little or by going into a very slow turn- one that barely changes your direction initially but if you stay in the turn will eventually pull your flight path about 15-20 degrees off course.
I'm beginning to see what the problem is, you don't take the appropriate measures to ensure that the plane pursuing you does not have a guns solution on you when you are fleeing.
-SW
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Of course, I'm assuming the D9 will not fly in a straight path. But this is not going to save you if the pursuer fills up the sky with hispano bullets unless you have already a big speed advantage or a good separation from the first moment and are able to flee from the death cone in less than 4 or 5 seconds.
But if you read all my previous post you'll see that the point is not only to flee. The D9 will loose its offensive possition if it wants simply to flee by speed while the Spit will have a chance to kill you even in defensive.
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Well it all depends on your defintion of defensive.
You can't very well always be on the offensive in any plane. I have, many times, forced myself from the defensive to the offensive by flying in a style that no one expects from a 190.
The Spitfire only has as much a chance to kill you when it's on the defensive as you have a chance to kill it when you're on the offensive. In other words- if you don't let him shoot you then it's all a moot point. He'll burn away his energy and speed trying to go for a shot that you'll easily deny him and in the end you zoom up, and go back down to kill him.
Now this is all hypothetical and moot, in practice I can do anything I want with the D9. It's all about analyzing the situation you're in, and forcing the plane(s) you are fighting against into positions they are not familiar with or do not expect.
You are arguing hypothetical points, and hypothetically, you are correct.
But in the MA where it's more fluid and dynamic, guessing the various encounters you can come up with are endless and thus you must change your tactics accordingly.
It's not about a set standard of rules that makes the SpitfireIX any more deadly, efficient or invincible than the D9- it's about how you fly it and bring the fight to the enemy.
-SW
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SWulfe, this is an historical day cause I agree with you: "flying in a style that no one expects from a 190". That says all.
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"P38 can climb away from a spitfire mkIX when using wep"
Er.. no. This is the one thing you must NEVER do when having a spit on your 6. The spit will simply level off and wep and catch you. Why? 38 may climb better, but it wont outclimb a hail of 50 cal and 20mm bullets. Spits level and get to d900 of you then they start their own climb, getting to d600 and firing. They wont stay in range for long, but they just level again and repeat till they ping you to death. This outclimbing thing MAY work above 20k, but below, not a fat chance in hell.
This is vs spitIX of course.
"P38 just need enough "performance" to put his nose at up to 1 km of the target."
Partly true. However, the 50 cals dont do any serious damage past d650. I've pinged a con at d900 so many times it seemed to glow. No damage to it. And this is with the "alleged" nose guns in 38 hitting in a tight spot. The only time a 38 guns deal damage at long ranges is when the target is showing its planform to you, aka, a 109g10 zooming up, it gets to d900 from you, 38 about to stall, the 109 begins to flip over to come down, 38 fires a LOT of bullets and hits it and snaps its wing off. If this had been a rear aspect shot, nothing wouldve happened. But since it hit from a "top" view, the wings get sliced off. And even this requires you shoot off at leasy 800 rnds and hit with about 100 or 150 of them.
"With D9 you need enough "performance" to put your nose at up to 400 yards of the target."
With the d9's performance thats extremely easy.
"In the other hand, if you want to flee from a P38 you need enough "performance" to put your plane 1 km away of the P38."
True. However, read the above, you will know not to give your planform. If you dont I can ping your bellybutton all I want and not damage you.
"If you want to flee from a D9, more than 400 yards are enough. Now add guns lethality and snapshot capability to the equation."
But the question is, WHAT planes can actually FLEE from a d9? Only ones I can think of are the tiffie, the g10, the la7 and the pony . And only the tiffie and la7 can actually do it without diving or having to fly relatively level to gain speed.
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Tac, I've beet cut in half several times at D1.2 by P38 and with only few pings, I assume these were 20mm pings.
For the D9, being at 400 yards or less from the target doesnt guarantee any deadly hit.
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So what is really needed is a very fast LW plane with hispanos and fifties that will turn like a spit and climb like a G10 while still being small and able to warp roll like a 190 but carry 4,000 lbs of bombs? A little range wouldn't hurt either.
I'm sure such a plane existed it is simply that HTC (and all the other sims) refuses to model it. I mean... If LW planes were so bad they wouldn't have won the war.
lazs
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Sorry, I didn’t take time to read every post here.
To me (considering myself as mostly a 190 driver) D-9 is a gift from heaven.
After 9 months of AH apstinence, I played in tour 17, D-9 most of the time. Guess what – a 50+ kill streak !! And who got me after 50 kills ? A PT boat, lol.
I could never do that in any other plane. And arena had La7s and Tempests !
It was like a drug sometimes ;). Being able to constantly BnZ Nikis and Spits, dismantling them with deflection shots from 450 mph passes - now that's a plane.
I don’t know how other late war stuff compares to D-9, but I do know how it compares to 190A series. It is a killer.
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LOL Hristo, its true, you have not read the thread
;)
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"Tac, I've beet cut in half several times at D1.2 by P38 and with only few pings, I assume these were 20mm pings"
Highly unlikely it was a 20mm. And as I said above, it mustve been from a planform shot. Ive yet to kill ANYTHING from any other aspect when firing that far away.
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I never judge a plane.
Pilot is important to it's maneuvers.
That D9... well... may be a newbie? :confused:
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What MANDOBLE seems to be saying is that K/T is the only real measure of an aircraft's usefulness in the MA because we all have infinite lives, yet not infinite time. Therefore the aircraft with the best K/T are the war winners and thus the ones that should be perked.
I disagree for a few resons.
1) The real "war winners", IMHO, are the multi-role aircraft like the P-38L, P-47D-30, F4U-1D, P-51D and F6F-5. You have to be able to kill what is on the ground as well as what is in the air.
2) I feel that MANDOBLE's system puts far too high a value on winning the war. Many (most?) players are only trying to win the war as a secondary goal. Their primary goals are to fly aircraft they like and be successful with them. Personal success is most often defined by ones K/D, not ones K/T.
3) The two best aircraft (I'm guessing here) for K/T are probably the Spitfire MkIX and the N1K2-J. Neither of these aircraft would be terribly successful at landing their perk price should they be perked. Low time players, such as myself, would therefor be forced into the free speed demons, or the "I know its suicide, but I like the aircraft so I use it anyways" planes. I personally would like the MA a whole hell of a lot less if the most common aircraft were P-51Ds, Bf109G-10s, La-7s, Typhoons and Fw190D-9s.
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I agree with you in concept, Karnak. I would add though that I have been enjoying 4-6 kills per sortie in the 190A5, and I only started taking it up in the last week (not even a week yet). 3/4's a tank of gas, and I often land with 1/2 gas in the tank. It isn't just the planes mentioned that can kill quickly, which is what makes perking based on K/T such a dangerous proposition.
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Agree Kieran, cause that I've always said 190A8 or A5 are best suited for MA than D9.
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Just puttin’ my $.02 in where I probably shouldn’t :)
I am fairly new to the AH arena, and have been away from on-line flight sims for too long.
Still, I have some experience that I would like to share.
First of all no on-line flight sim is “realistic”, in real war you only die or get severely maimed once. Never having been a combat pilot, but I was an infantryman, in real combat. The most important thing to do in a war (as an individual) is to survive. Period, ask any veteran who has seen combat, most I believe will agree with me.
Therefore, I think that the vast majority of combat pilots flew with the intention of returning to base at the end of their missions. I on the other hand fly with the intention of having fun. If that means diving into a furball with little or no chance of survival so be it (furballs are my BIG weakness <BG> ). And everyone says “Who Cares??” LOL! :)
Anyways, I ramble on. In flight sims I believe that the most important thing is gunnery, gunnery and gunnery. Billy Bishop (WW1) said that the most important thing in Air Combat is gunnery, followed by tactics used to enter a fight, and least important were flying skills themselves. This from a man with over 60 kills and who survived the war.
Aerial Combat Maneuvering is all about two things:
1> Survival
2> Brining you weapons systems to bear on the enemy.
Since, for me anyways, 1 is not always a consideration because of what I (note that means me not the rest of the world) deem to be “fun”. But 2 is always a big point of my flying in the arena. If I liked on-line chatting, I’d go to a chat room. But I like blowing up bogeys, it’s my thing. I also get off on adrenaline pumping, roll in the mud with a box cutter furballs <really BG> .
Where am I going? Nowhere I guess, it’s just that we all want different things from on-line sims. I want to have fun shooting bogeys. Part of which means that some bogeys will shoot me down (and a lot more often than I’d like LOL!). What a hoot IMHO :)
Right now my K/D sux, I’m new to the arena, just paying my dues :) But quite frankly I’ll never be a great sim pilot, I just don’t seem to have whatever it takes to move past “pretty darn good” to “Great.” I consider pilots like SeaWulfe to be “Great” (actually “Awesome” may be a better term for Wulfie IMNSHO). So, I may never be “Great” but I have a lotta fun.
Done rambling, hope I didn’t put too many to sleep :)
AKEagle+
:)
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Read whole thread, got the picture.
I agree 100% with Karnak. I couldn't put it better.
P.S.
When I up in D-9 in the future, there better be some Spit XIVs around. Need high K/D and low K/T.
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Originally posted by Kieran:
It isn't just the planes mentioned that can kill quickly, which is what makes perking based on K/T such a dangerous proposition.
Perking based on K/T? That's hilarious. If any stat is a function of the pilot more than the plane, that one's it. NathBDP flies 190s and 109s all the time, and he often has a K/T greater than 0.0030 because he flies them aggressively.
I'm with you, Kieran. Let's not touch that one with a billion foot pole.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Probably the best K/T is achieved by quake type players who never even land their sorties.
Don't think they are winning the war though. Last time I checked they just furball around and kill each other, no real interest for other things. You know, they are the ones who you beg - bring down the ack and FH, CAP the field, goon on the way etc. - and constantly wonder if they understand English at all ;).
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Probably the best K/T is achieved by quake type players who never even land their sorties.
Don't think they are winning the war though. Last time I checked they just furball around and kill each other, no real interest for other things. You know, they are the ones who you beg - bring down the ack and FH, CAP the field, goon on the way etc. - and constantly wonder if they understand English at all ;).
Perhaps we understand English, but really just want you to play the game your way, and let us play it ours. Some of us don't really care about the "war" and wouldn't miss it much if it went away.
The fact is, some of us appreciate a simple, well-executed rope-a-dope more than a coordinated base capture. Some of us think it's more exciting to figure out which way that fleeing Mustang is going to RTB, and be there, than it is to figure out how to block reinforcements from coming to the base you're capturing. Some of us would rather re-live the exploits of Gentile and Godfrey, rather than the pilots of the bombers they escorted. Some of us would rather wade into a ten-on-ten furball, than join ten countrymen in capping a damaged field. It's just the way we are, and all the disparagement in the world isn't going to change that. Of course, you can always lobby HTC to change the game so we *have* to play your way -- increased repair times, crater damage to runways, decreased effect of supply -- all are ways to stiffen the penalty for not playing your way all the time. That wouldn't be very nice, though, don't you think?
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Oh how I wish everyone in AH flew like Hristo, climb to 30k and cherry pick then run away.
It would be SO much fun I think I'd have to quit.
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Btw since when is wasting time getting low kills but landing your sorties helping this so called 'war'?
Seems like the latter is more self-serving than trying to keep enemy aircraft pinned down--like how us "quakers" play.
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Nath,
You're one of the best opponents I have ever encountered in AH (not that you could say the same about me), and I have never bested you. You can mix it up with a 109 or 190 in ways that I have trouble even thinking how you pulled some of those manuvers.
Do you really think that perking the Spit IX would make AH better? Do you really think that the Spit IX is a valid cadidate for perking? Do you really feel that the Spit IX, as modeled in AH, is better than the Fw190D-9, as modeled in AH?
Or am I mistaken about what you are saying? Are you simply arguing against Hristo (who hasn't tried to press his stye on anybody in this thread) and not against what Hristo was arguing against?
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These 30k planes looking for oportunity and unawared targets are mainly ignored in the game. Sure, they can achieve an enormous K/D with a pathetic K/T (you dont need a G10, P51 or D9 to do that, a single 30k spitV is enough). But, in overal, they have no impact at all in the result of a capture or a defense. Usually, these low quake-furballs are just the main obstacle for the goon and for the jabos when trying to take a field.
As a matter of fact, K/D seems to be the less important factor in the AH concept of fighter ranking.
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Karnak, IMO, D9 is better PLANE, but SpitIX is far better suited for THIS MA.
In the other hand, D9 is better suited for CT than SpitIX.
IMO, planes should be perked depending on the environment.
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MANDOBLE,
I see what you are saying, I just strongly disagree with it. Spending perk points for a Spit IX would be throwing them away. Everybody would be after you, in your "uber perk plane" and you couldn't outrun any of them. Some planes will simply be better at some things, and some of those things will be more important to more players.
I think you'll find that if you worry less about your contribution to the war effort and focus more on just having fun with the aircraft you like you'll get more out of the game.
From my point of view, as somebody who flys a "I know its suicide, but I like the aircraft so I'll fly it anyways" plane, the fast aircraft are much more of a problem. Spitfires and N1K2s don't bother me, but La-7s, Typhoons, Bf109G-10s, Fw190D-9s, P-51s, ect, ect, mean my death.
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Why does the SpitIX bother you so much? They are annoying but the ones I meet arent too bad because their pilots simply suck.
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GRUNHERZ, you are right, most spit pilots simply suck. But pickup one spit offline and fly it to the limits, you will be amazed. A good pilot would do incredible things in that fighter. And add the most important ingredient: 2 hispanos.
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Sure Mandoble, but it's not that dangerous in the MA: with most planes, you can simply run away from it.
You might have trouble killing it, but you can disengage at will with most planes.
No need to perk the Spit. Perk the LA-7, D-9, P5, variants of the P47 (such as the overloaded ones), the tiffie....
Or better yet, don't perk anything more.
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StSanta, I find top speed alone a poor criteria to perk a plane.
Weapons and the chance to aim them at the enemy are, IMO, more important factors.
Basically, if you disengange using your superior top speed (most of the time diving), you are not more a danger for the enemy.
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Perking a plane to make up for poor ACM is a bad idea.
Drex
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Eheheheh Drex. 8)
Please don't perk the Spitfire IXE. Then I'd have to chase down more Fw 190D-9s and La-7s for kills more in my Fw 190D-9, as opposed to killing all those slow bellybutton ugly Spitfire IXEs.
"I like Spitfires. They taste really good."
Mike/'wulf14'
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Originally posted by Runny:
Perhaps we understand English, but really just want you to play the game your way, and let us play it ours. Some of us don't really care about the "war" and wouldn't miss it much if it went away.
Couldn't be said better than that, Runny.
- oldman
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Hi Nath ;)
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No Karnak I was just stating that flying cautiously and trying to get a high K/d doesn't help the MA "war".
I don't think any plane should be 'perked'. I have zero trouble fighting any of the current aircraft in the planeset,be it perked or not.
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Due to all the talk here on the Dora, I tried one out.
Pretty sweet plane :)
I think I will fly it a lot, has a lot of potential. Fast, climbs nice, dives fast, turns well, and LOTS of BIG guns and ammooooo :)
I don't usuall fly LW iron, but it is hard not to fall in love with sweet Dora :)
Now all I have to do is learn how to fly it! I fly like a buzzard with a broken wing, LOL!
Thanks for the tip :)
AKEagle+
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I find it simply hilarious that someone who is 277:36 in a D-9 is trying to say its not really that good of a plane.
...a psychiatric dream come true.
Please note, I'm not trying to argue with Mandoble... because I know these things:- If a 190 wins a fight its because of the pilot
- if a spit wins a fight its because of the plane
Those that don't understand these two rules are definately not welcome in the luftwhiner circle of friends.
AKDejaVu
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Deja:
Apparently you have not been reading what Mandoble has written.
You CAN’T b&z in the main. It is simply impossible. I guess he’s been making his kills by flying that Dora like it’s an A6M. Since he has been killing spits by turn-fighting them in a Dora it MUST be the pilot.
The only other alternative is that he is lying. And I think that is against BBS rules or something.
Hooligan
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S!
Flying mainly P-47D-11 IMO BnZ is only way to fight in it (except very few hot sticks here). Try anything else and you're dead (this goes to D-9 too). Strange to read that BnZ'ers are "second class" players and has no effect to war. BnZ'ing doesn't necessary mean that you have to fly at 30k and make max 10k dives before zooming up, it's much more funnier (and more effective to the war :rolleyes: ) to BnZ at low alts especially to huge low level furball and scratch kill here and kill there, no?
Of course there's a risk that higher über-plane bounches and kills you, but life is full of risks.
Just my thoughts, no offence.
:)
EDIT: I've flown D-9 only when it came available getting 63/32 K/D which equals to 1.96 or so which means that lazs is right by saying: If you can't get a 1.5/1 K/D with it then you are unsuited to flying that plane. There are very few non perked planes that give u such a huge inherent advantage.
[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: vector ]
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You CAN’T b&z in the main. It is simply impossible.
I fully understand that Hooligan. What the dora pilots do is completely different. They come in with alot of speed and go for a snapshot... then they do rapid rolls while they "extend" and climb to do it again. Completely different than BnZ. Afterall... only runstang pilots BnZ. Everyone knows that.
I guess he’s been making his kills by flying that Dora like it’s an A6M. Since he has been killing spits by turn-fighting them in a Dora it MUST be the pilot.
You are so correct. Afterall.. when a person takes the time to complain that the plane he's only 7:1 in isn't all that great and the only thing that makes them successfull in the MA is the pilots... well... I wonder if he has a glossy 8x10 or wallet size picture of himself he uses for his "hummina" time.
AKDejaVu
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Just a personal note here about if you can't get a 1.5:1 change the plane.
I had a .7 to 1 K/D flying mostly LA7. I just went to the Dora yesterday, got 13 kills and died 10 times (most quite stupidly I must admit) :)
My conclusion? D9 probably suits my flying style better than a LA7.
But it would seem to me that instead of telling newbies to fly a Spit, maybe a D9 would be a better suggestion???
AKEagle+
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What the dora pilots do is completely different. They come in with alot of speed and go for a snapshot...
IMO, this is the best way to return to home with 0 kills every time. And to do that you dont need a D9, every fighter is able to climb to 25k, dive, look for a snapshot and climb again.
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Here's what I do when fighting a better turning plane when I am in any of the 190's:
1. I carry in a little speed. This can come from a slight alt advantage, or maybe WEP on the level or shallow dive for 30 seconds.
2. I try for a rear-quarter aspect, but will take high-angle deflections if I am close.
3. If I can acquire the rear quarter, I will hold a lag pursuit for perhaps 1/4-1/2 turn. If it looks as though I can get inside the guy I will stay; if not, I bug out or go vertical.
4. I use the vertical whenever possible to conserve E.
5. Never do I allow myself to get buried in a pile of Spits or anything that has good acceleration. OTOH, I would have no problem diving into a mess of P-51's.
Flown this way the 190 can pile up kills at any alt, and will usually prove slippery enough to get away when things look bad.
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so mandoble... The guns (and kurt tanks ultimate fighter) will be "fixed" when you get a what?? 10/1 K/D? 20/1? 30/1? Maybe when the average for the plane is up to 5/1 or so then the LW will finally have the "correct" Dora?
Carefull what you wish for... If it weren't so boring then more people would fly it and you wouold be down to a 1.5/1 K/D instead of being able to take advantage of such an underated ride.
lazs
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Lazs-
I do recall a test conducted that showed the D9 gun dispersement was radically different from the dispersement of a similarly armed A5. This is probably what Man is referring to, in which case he would be right.
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Dora is a hell of a ride, even for the Ma. Lazs is right though, it is boring as hell to fly.
Flew it and the P-38 the most this tour, did FAR better K/D wise in the Dora, but I had more fun flying the P-38.
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kieran.. if that is the case then if both gunsets were exactly the same, mounted in the same place on the same weight planes on the same wings and airframe at the same speeds then the dispertion should be the same.
If the plane then get's a 10/1 K/D ratio then maybe it shouldn't even be in the game? It hardly existed anyway. It perhaps cuts both ways?
lazs
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Lazs, I don't think you understand. There was a test conducted by one of our members where he taxiied up to a hangar and fired. He did this with both planes, same distance, same guns, same gun convergence settings, and the results were wildly different. I saw the pics. It had nothing to do with weight of aircraft, speed, nada. It was about the way the guns worked. It seemed apparent to me there was a flaw.
Anyone remember the test to which I am referring? I can't remember who did it.
Edit: As to whether or not the D9 belongs in the game, I am not even debating that point. I like it and think it is fun to fly, and in some ways is the best plane in the game. Mandoble does have a valid point WRT its ability to snapshot kill. It is the main reason I fly the A5 over the D9, because aside from guns I could do about anything in the D9 I can in the A5.
[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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Ok kieran.. but the mounting points and wing (stifness) would of course matter.
lazs
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There's the rub, Lazs. The wings are virtually identical (within 2 inches) and the mounting is the same. This does suggest there is a problem with dispersion one way or the other. Mind you, it is a minor problem in comparison to others, but it does seem there is something worth looking at down the road sometime. I certainly don't have my panties in a wad over it, for sure.
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lazs, where have I said the guns or the plane needs to be fixed?
This thread was not intended to be a technical whine about D9. Before starting this thread, several people aseverated D9 was a monster and should be perked. I said D9 was not designed for our MA and that SpitIX is better suited for that environment and was a better candidate to enter into the perk zone. No one, except you, is debating about errors in the model. About that gun test, I remember it. And yep, the disperion was very different between the two planes. But that has nothing to do with the spirit of this thread. Even more, I've said over'n over that, IMO, K/D is not an important factor. But, if you are interested into having and enormous K/D ratio, just pickup a SpitIX, climb to 30k and start diving and climbing with it, you will have far better chances to kill anything this way than trying it with the pathetic snapshot capability of the D9.
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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well... I only said that the guns worked pretty well and kieran said that something was wrong with em. I am saying that if the guns and.... the plane itself.. are not suited to the arena then I have failed to see why. The plane has about the hitghest non perked K/D ratio. It is pretty untouchable. It is very much more suited to the ma than the Spit if getting a high K/D and surviving are factors to you.
If a high K/D and survival are not a factor to you and fun is a larger factor then yu need to rethink your plane choice. I believe that the less D9's in the arena the more fun the arena is. You apparently feel the same but won't admit it. Even to yourself.
lazs
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Whoa! I for one don't want the D-9, P-51, G-10, La-7, or anything else perked. If anything I've said indicates that, I have been in error.
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Agree Kieran, you were not supporting the idea of perking D9.
But if D9 becomes as popular as other planes are now in MA, I'll be the first one asking for perk it. I have the "absurd" idea that plane usage are directly related to plane suitability for MA.
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And everything suitable to the MA needs to be perked because...?
Some things are aslo more common because the are simply more enjoyable for many people to use. Spits are fun to fly, moreso than D-9s for most people.
If the Spit IX gets 20% of the kills in a tour I'll be right beside you asking for it to be perked. But we both know that isn't going to happen.
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I am taking silent bids on my Member Number.
Drex
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Kieren I remember the test.
I also happen to remember that the distances and angles used to snap the screenshots on the A5 and D9 were very different.
Hell, HTC put in a convergence test just for this sort of thing- anyone cared to see if there was a big difference between the D9 and A5?
-SW
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I haven't read any of this thread, but I'd like to comment that it is really getting long.
Thanks.
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Swolfe, I tested it when it first came out, I noticed absolutely no difference at all between the 2 cannon A5, the 2 cannon A8, and the D9.
I honestly think the guns seem harder to hit with in deflection shots because the longer nose hides your target for more of the time.
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Disagree Urchin, longer nose doesnt hide the target for more time.
From the cockpit you are ubable to see the end point of the 190 nose, no matter if you are in A8/F8/A5 or D9, unless you put your head in an elevated pos. In this case, the advantage is for the D9 due its "bubble" canopy.
I'll do some convergence tests, but the fact is that I have enormous problems even shooting at 250 yards static targets if I use the center of the sight as reference. I've failed even 300 yards buffs, I see all the bullets passing below, avobe, etc, but not hitting. In fact I dont use the sight at all with D9.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
If the Spit IX gets 20% of the kills in a tour I'll be right beside you asking for it to be perked. But we both know that isn't going to happen.
Well, actually Spit (IX + V) have near 20% of kills. But counting the kills is a mistake, this doesnt demostrate the plane usage, you should counter the deaths. 1 death = 1 plane used.
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What convergence setting are you using Man?
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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MANDOBLE,
But the Spit IX's + the Spit V's kills does not equal the Spit IX's kills. Those are two separate aircraft, or are you going to start saying the Spit V should be perked?
Tour 23 stats for the Spits IX and V:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 28770 kills and has been killed 29391 times. 7.84% of total kills. 8.02% of total deaths.
The Spitfire Mk Vb has 17540 kills and has been killed 15569 times. 4.78% of total kills. 4.25% of total deaths.
Combined they have 12.62% of the total kills and 12.27% of the total deaths. Both of those are still well shy of 20%.
If we add the Seafire in:
The SeaFire Mk IIc has 7132 kills and has been killed 8336 times. 1.95% of total kills. 2.27% of total deaths.
All Spitfire varients combine for 14.57% of the total kills and 14.54% of the total deaths. That is still more than 5% shy of 20% for both stats, and we've had to lump all Spits in as one aircraft.
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Karnak, could you do a general stat and lump all Spits, all hogs, all Wulf and all 190's in the same way?
Perk the 190!
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Rude, I've tried 250, 350 and now 600 for Mgs and guns.
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Karnak, check Djvu page http://www.dbstaines.com/TourStats/Tour23/Tour23.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/TourStats/Tour23/Tour23.htm)
Counting only kills and not deaths:
SpitIX 11.42%
SpitV 7.18%
Seafire 2.71%
Three Spit variants combined: 21.31% of kills.
If we compare with LW contingent...
Four 190 variants combined: 7.83% of kills.
Four 109 variants combined: 6.32% of kills (less than the % of SpitV alone).
If we count the deaths instead the kills (total deaths 199688):
All Spits: 21.28%
All 190: 6.37%
All 109: 6.08%
The conclusion: I'm really bored of seeing spits.
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I tend to believe someone (Urchin) who has done tests using utlities given to us to figure out if something is wrong with the guns over someone (Mandoble) who gives me 2nd hand information about what he has seen without actually performing a test.
-SW
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What would really bring new life to this thread, is if HT added the Spit XIV. The fur would just be flying in here.
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MANDOBLE,
DejaVu's stats are only fighter vs. fighter. Mine are fighter vs. everything.
For MA performance we need to look at the whole package, since fighter vs. fighter combat is actually not the whole deal. Especially when you consider that the Spits aren't very good at the escort / interception / jabo types of jobs.
If you're going to argue that the Spit is too good in the wide context of the MA don't try to then go and use its narrow fighter vs. fighter numbers to prove that.
You also didn't answer my question about the Spit V. Do you now think that too should be perked? Your recent statements seem to indicate that you consider all Spits to be one and the same.
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One Hundred and Seventy-Five
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
The conclusion: I'm really bored of seeing spits.
My conclusion: Deal with it and quit complaining.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Karnak, check Djvu page http://www.dbstaines.com/TourStats/Tour23/Tour23.htm (http://www.dbstaines.com/TourStats/Tour23/Tour23.htm)
Counting only kills and not deaths:
SpitIX 11.42%
SpitV 7.18%
Seafire 2.71%
Three Spit variants combined: 21.31% of kills.
If we compare with LW contingent...
Four 190 variants combined: 7.83% of kills.
Four 109 variants combined: 6.32% of kills (less than the % of SpitV alone).
If we count the deaths instead the kills (total deaths 199688):
All Spits: 21.28%
All 190: 6.37%
All 109: 6.08%
The conclusion: I'm really bored of seeing spits.
The conclusion is more folks fly the spits and die in them than they do in the LW a/c you listed. Most newbies gravitate to an easy aircraft to fly but that isn't to say that said aircraft is uber, which it is not by a long shot.
Your solution is to make it unavailable to an apparent large portion of the players. What is your reason again? You're tired of seeing them? My question to you is, what a/c are you going to get tired of next, i.e., what a/c is next in line?
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MANDOBLE,
Here are the fighter versus everything totals for the Spits, 109s and 190s in Tour 23:
All Spitfire varients combine for 14.57% of the total kills and 14.54% of the total deaths.
All 109 varients combine for 4.68% of the total kills and 4.23% of the total deaths.
All 190 varients combine for 5.92% of the total kills and 4.66% of the total deaths.
It is undeniable that Spits are much more prolific in the MA. Nobody here has denied that. However, your guideline seems to be how it does in relation to 109s and 190s. Is your goal to force people into those aircraft by leaving no other options?
I don't see a proplem with any of the numbers you or I have posted. None of them indicate to me that anything needs perking.
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Do we want a rich arena or a monotone one?
Are these spit drivers giving a chance to other planes or will they live forever behind their UBER hispanos? Have they ever tried 109F? C205? F6F? all of them excelent turners. Perking the spit will not make this plane unavailable to the people. 1 perk point? 2 perks? just enough to regulate the population. IMO, perks should help us to have plane-rich arena, and a more dynamic perking system would be desirable. Why do you want your perks if you have no planes to use them? 262? too expensive. Ta152? no idea why its perked? Tempest? good ride but why to use it having the La7? Actually there is almost no reason to use your perks, in fact, perk planes are almost unused.
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Straight out question Mandoble- are you now suggesting we perk the Spit V too? :confused:
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Do we want a rich arena or a monotone one?
The arena is already rich. Last night I ran into P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, F6Fs, F4Us, N1Ks, Spits, 205s, 202s, 109s, 190s, La5s, La7s, Yaks, Zekes, a Hurricane, a 262, a 152, assorted ground vehicles, PT Boats, and a C-47 or two.
Is that "monotone?"
Are these spit drivers giving a chance to other planes or will they live forever behind their UBER hispanos? Have they ever tried 109F? C205? F6F? all of them excelent turners. Perking the spit will not make this plane unavailable to the people. 1 perk point? 2 perks? just enough to regulate the population. IMO, perks should help us to have plane-rich arena, and a more dynamic perking system would be desirable.
Your description of a "monotone" arena is simply a straw man you've built up to justify perking planes you don't like seeing. The fact is that the arena already features a wide variety of planes at any given time, but you're either unwilling or unable to notice this.
In addition, you have no idea if Spit pilots have tried out other planes or not. Before I flew the Spit V, I flew the Spit IX, the P-47D30, and the Typhoon each for long stretches. I fly what's enjoyable for me, not what's enjoyable for you.
Why do you want your perks if you have no planes to use them? 262? too expensive. Ta152? no idea why its perked? Tempest? good ride but why to use it having the La7? Actually there is almost no reason to use your perks, in fact, perk planes are almost unused.
So now the uselessness of perk points also justifies perking Spits? I thought the need to ensure a "plane-rich" arena was the justification. Sorry, but my roadkillometer just maxed out.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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My first statement was to perk the Spit, not to perk only one Spit model.
Kieran, how many kills do you need in a SpitV to get ONE perk point?
Do you really think that our actual MA is compensated? When I look into my stats of previous tour and I notice the ammount of Spits killed I realize how compensate and rich is our arena: 122 Spits followed by 44 La7...
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MANDOBLE,
If diversity is your goal, and you want to get other's out of the aircraft they prefer in order to further diversiry, tell me this:
When was the last time you flew a Ki-61? How about a C.205 or 202? Have you flown a Hurricane lately? How about my "pet" plane, the Mosquito?
Why don't you fly these?
I see 109s and 190s much, much more than any of those.
If you are unwilling to spend much time out of what you like in order to increase the diversity, how can you justify asking others to do so?
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Karnak, agree with you. And if due overusage D9 becomes perked, I'll be happy to pay for it.
I'm not critizying Spit pilots, I'm only trying to find out a way to reduce spit numbers in arena. The first way was to engange and shot down every spit I saw, but didnt work, they had more spits waiting for them in the hangar ;)
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MANDOBLE,
You missed what I was trying to say.
What I am trying to get at are these things:
What is the "magic" number that equals overuse? Why is it that number?
Why don't you fly Ki-61s and Mossies? The 190 is overused compared to them. Should it be perked because of this? Why not?
For my part, I find that slow assed planes like the Spits and N1K2s do a lot less to harm my enjoyment of the game than fast aircraft like the Fw190D-9, La-7, Typhoon and P-51. This is hardly surprising given what I usually fly, but it is not a reason to try to get people out of those aircraft if they enjoy flying them. I will guarantee that I will be gone from AH if the fast BnZ aircraft replace the slow TnB aircraft as the most popular. Those fast BnZ aircraft mean my death everythime if the pilot is even close to average.
FWIW, I'll be right beside you asking for the Spit IX to be perked if it gets 20% of the kills in a tour.
[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Karnak, your hate for the B&Zoomers is just a hate for top speed differences. These B&Zoomers kill themselves as T&Burners.
Sincerely, Turn'till puke alone, IMO, is the most boring and ridiculous way of fighting I've ever seen. Same with B&Z alone, pathetically inefective and boring. Just mix it up T&B with B&Z and you'll have the most enjoyable and interesting fights. Obviously, to do that you will need speed, but not just speed at level, dive, acceleration and climb are, IMO, far better important factors. The speed at level is only usefull to catch a fleeing plane (already defeated) or to flee when you've already been defeated.
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I'm only trying to find out a way to reduce spit numbers in arena.
Wow. There is more truth in that statement than you realize. I'm out on this thread. :(
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I gotta agree with karnak and dmf. I never thought the Chog was much of a plane but it did create a certain behavior and was overused. The Spit, lag, nik, 51 scourge is not that great IMO. I see a lot of variety in the arena and I see a lot more 109/190's than a lot of the other planes.
We will never use some of the earlier less capable planes so long as it is an "anything goes" arena. An "area" arena seems the only solution other than some historical arena with the endlessly boring 109/190 vs whatever 24/7.
karnak is also right in that it is the fast planes that kill the variety in the arena. The late war fast planes need to vbe segregated if we are to have any hope of usuing the early war planes. I fly the -1 and I never actually "fight" a D9 or 51 or lag. I sometimes catch em slow and kill em or they catch me busy and kill me. That is not anything like the fighting I do with spits, niks hellcats, 47's 38's 205's etc. I prefer the later.
lazs
lazs
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My newbie $.02 again :)
It would seem to me that if they perked the D9, I would go to a A8 or maybe a P47. Or maybe learn to ride the Pony properly. Why fly perked planes? All you have to do is fly the best plane for your style that is non-perked, and you will probably do quite well as I see so few perked planes in the arena.
Haven't seen a Tempest in ages, can't ever remember seeing a ME-262 in the last month. Chogs are almost extinct.
Seems that the best way to kill a plane is to perk it :)
Just my rambling on... :D
Eagle shuffles back to his cave muttering something about "wish I had my Chogs back" ;)
AKEagle+
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MANDOBLE,
I don't hate BnZ aircraft. I don't hate any aircraft. Its just that to a Mossie, which is a not staggeringly fast 1943 aircraft, they mean death. I can run from a Spit or N1K2, but a P-51D or La-7 means I'm dead unless the other guy is stupid or I have a lot of E on him. Its true that I can at least out turn a Bf109G-10 or Fw190D-9, but who is going to turn one of those against a Mossie?
When I fly an Fw190D-9 I do use BnZ pretty much exclusively, I'm not good enough with it to mix it up with much success. When I fly the "easy" aircraft, Spit IX, N1K2, C.205, Bf109F-4 and La-7, I use a combination of BnZ and TnB. When I fly a Spit V or Zero I TnB pretty exclusively.
When I fly Mossies I do whatever I can to try to win, but it is a challenge. Planes like the P-51D, Yak-9U, Bf109G-2 and P-38L outdo to Mossie in every flight characteristic other than firepower. It isn't the Spits and N1K2s that make things like the Mossie (and future things like the Me410) so hard to use, its the fast P-51s, Fw190D-9s, Bf109G-10s, Typhoons and La-7s that make them hard to use in the MA.
Too many fast aircraft will have a very adverse effect on the variety in the MA. Fast fighters eliminate a whole host of interesting early and mid war aircraft because those fighters will always kill them if the fighter pilots have any idea what they are doing. Purge the MA of Spits and N1K2s and you force people into the P-51D and La-7 and other people out of their C.205s and Mossies.
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guess I am trying to say that I would 10 times rather fight in an arena full of niks and spits than one full of 51's and D9's... Sure 51's and D9's aren't much fun to fly but they are even less fun to fly against for the average plane.
lazs
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Karnak, IMO, the problem is not in the speed.
If a very fast plane wants to engange you in a slow one, he will need to slow down and doghfight you to get the kill. If he keeps fast, he will fail over'n over and will get extremely bored in few minutes. With the icons and radar, fast slashes has minimal effect unless the enemy is AFK, blinded or enjoying his first AH week. Once the fast aircarft has slow down to catch you, the acceleration and gun power are primary factors. If he wants to flee from you, acceleration will be also the primary factor. For example, La7 is not a monster due its top speed, probably equivalent to the Typh on the deck, but due its brutal acceleration. An imaginary La7 with a top speed on the deck of only 350 mph would be the same monster. Actually, I only know 4 planes that can keep fast and score kills somewhat easily: P51, P47, P38 and Moosie. And the only reason is that their weapons can kill at 1000 yards and have an exceptional snapshot capability. Try to keep at 400 mph with D9, La7 or any 109 and lets see how easy is to get a single kill...
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Its funny how the guys who fly "fast" planes complain about the slow ones ruining the MA and how the guys who fly "slow" planes complain about the fast ones ruining the MA.
I tend to fly the Bf109G6 and FW190A5, neither are very fast but arent exactly slow either, I guess I should be pretty happy. :)
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MANDOBLE,
You haven't fought many Mossies, have you?
Slashing attacks work just fine on them as they are ponderous, huge targets.
Bf110s and Me410s will be exactly the same. Can't turn out of the way and can't run.
In addition, I certainly don't have godlike SA when I'm in a fight. I don't keep the map up for the AWACS view and I can't always be looking behind me.
You may think that I primarily fly Spits, but you'd be quite mistaken in that. I rarely fly Spits.
GRUNHERZ,
I don't think that the fast planes are ruining the MA. I do think that having only the fast planes available would ruin the MA.
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Karnak is right here, in my opinion. "Slow" planes that are good turners really only 'ruin' the game for anything that they are also faster than. Fast planes (or even worse, fast planes that are also good turners) 'ruin' the game for a LOT more planes.
I don't think the Spits need to be perked. It is obvious that they are enjoyable to fly (even if you, personally, don't like them). It is also obvious, from the IX's K/D, that a LOT of newbies fly the plane.
As much as I would like to turn all the newbies into future "Luftwhiners" by forcing them to fly a 109F4 for their first plane, it really isn't practical.
Yes, the Spit IX can be a holy terror if it is flown properly. Fortunately for the MA, VERY few people can actually fly it properly. So leave it be, in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
Slow" planes that are good turners really only 'ruin' the game for anything that they are also faster than. Fast planes (or even worse, fast planes that are also good turners) 'ruin' the game for a LOT more planes.
Thank you, Urchin.
That is exactly what I am trying to say.
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Perk spits cause somebody is tired of seeing them? Can we perk idiotic whining cause I am sure tired of seeing that.
Hooligan
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Ditto Hooli. As this thread pushes 200 posts, fueled by the conceit of a single individual, I am both supremely confident of and profoundly grateful for the fact that HTC knows better than to ever perk the Spits.
kbman
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
Perk spits cause somebody is tired of seeing them? Can we perk idiotic whining cause I am sure tired of seeing that.
Hooligan
ROFLOL, do u use a 4 bits cpu-brain???
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mandoble... you have a lot better chance of survival in a fast late war plane but you sacrafice action and fun in equal proportion. It is much easier for fast late war planes to ruin the arena than slow, good turners.
I have settled on medium planes. the -1 and hellcat, p47, G6, A5 etc are all medium. They accelerate and climb poorly but have "good" speed and roll. You can actually mix it up in a fur with em. I do ok agains Spits, niks and lags. I find 51's and D9's as well as all the perk rides to be annoying and unfun to fly against in the arena.
lazs
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I haven't followed this thread, just came in for the 200:th post :D
However, Karnak, the mossie turns very very well and it accelerates great. Not saying it should be perked or anything. Just a very good plane that can outturn most E fighters. The way to beat it however, is in the vertical, zoom in it and the E bleeds FAST and you won't gain much alt.
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Originally posted by kbman:
Ditto Hooli. As this thread pushes 200 posts, fueled by the conceit of a single individual, I am both supremely confident of and profoundly grateful for the fact that HTC knows better than to ever perk the Spits.
Yeah, especially when everyone knows they should perk the La-7 instead. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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still going....the horse is really bloody.
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SOB-
I was real close to dropping the "pic" for this one... you know, the "graceful exit". ;)
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Wilbus,
Yes, the Mossie does out turn many BnZ aircraft, but as you noted it doesn't go vertical well. Last time I ran into a Bf109G-6 I was slowly managing to out turn him by dropping a notch of flaps and flying as close to the edge as I could. He simply took the fight verticle and after going around about 4 times he got a solution with that 30mm cannon and <BOOOOM!!!!!>.
The Mossie turns about like a Bf109G-2, Fw190A-5 or P-51D.
Anyways, I've said everything I have to say on this subject. I agree with kbman in that HTC will not perk the Spits.
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Karnak, there you have a good example. Your mossie is faster than 109G6 and 109F, but they'll beat you over'n over due their acceleration. Speed is a secondary factor if there is no surprise factor to do real boom&zoom attacks. Of course you will have the chance to flee by speed, but only if you outaccelerate quick enough your enemy to get a real speed advantage and a substantial separation, and I know only one plane able to do this: La7.
The second key factor, IMO, is control at hi speed (hi speed is not extreme speed).
Any of our planes is suitable to be a hi speed fighter, even a 109F. Climb enough, do a sallow dive and keep fast all the time. The problem with the so-called slow fighters is that they are used mainly in a TnB way, burning all their speed doing flat turns. Neither so-called fast planes nor slow ones can sustain any speed advantage used only this way. If found a lot of good spit drivers having a slight alt advantage over my D9, and keeping that advantage on alt or speed all the time, no way to catch them. Of course, these pilots know how to use a spit instead trying to turn in a dime and pointing their hispanos towards my 190.
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But it is silly to want the Spitfires perked just because a handful (and I mean a handful, probably not more than 10 people), really KNOW how to get the most out of a spitfire (and Leviathn friggin counts twice!).
I'm not going to tell you how to kill Spits, you already know how. I'm really not understanding why you want to see the Spitfires perked. I understand that they are a lot more common than some planes (like the Ta152 :plug: :)), but they still arent anywhere NEAR as common as the C-Hog used to be.
It almost sounds to me like you are getting burnout from flying LW planes. Take a break, fly the P38 or the P47. Try out a Spit for a few flights, just to play around in. Either that or do like me and start working 10 hour days, you'll treasure every bit of AH you can get your grubby little hands on.
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MANDOBLE,
The Bf109G-6 is faster than the Mossie and the Bf109F-4 doesn't scare me.
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Karnak, at least my 109G6 is slower than my Mossie.
Urchin, I dont want Spit to be perked just because a bunch of pilots know how to use it. Just because, IMO, is overused. F4U1-C was "extremely" overused when was perked.
Perhaps its only me, or perhaps the other countries desired planes, but I see a lot of spits everywhere, much more than anyother kind of plane. And not, I'm not bored of flying 190, it is not a boring plane as someones think. It only depends on how u use it. In fact, every plane could be used in a boring way.
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Karnak the mosquito seems faster to me than the Bf109G6. I know I cant catch them at regular MA alts.
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Heh. That's funny, because I can't outrun G-6s at MA alts.
Eye of the beholder I guess.
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Puh i read the whole long thread.
And sry to say Mandoble, i dont see why the Spit should be perked.
Even in the numbers it is used now, it has no real impact on the MA. The CHOG on the other hand had, why? Cause it was an extremly well suited all-round killer. It could do everything, and with this weight missing, could evade everything.
But a spit has not such influence.
And i must agree with all those who said the D9 keeps you alive longer. I have now worked for 5-6 month on my D9 style, and i can admit that the times were i was killed have only two reasons, suprise or more often a fault on my side, due to greed :).
And surprise is for me, not being killed by someone i never saw, surprise is when somoone mentioned to move into a position from which he has all the advantages. And even in this cases i was about 50% of the time able to get away.
More often i am killed by my own faults, this is taking stupid HOs, target fixation or whatever.
And i strongly counter your point, that there is no surprise in the MA. About 75% of my kills are due to surprise. All you need is good SA and timing, than it really works great.
And finally there seems to be nothing wrong with the D9 guns execpt you set convergence to 300. I have changed convergence to 375 2 month back, and suddenly i had incredible accurate fire (for a LW plane :)), now i regulary score up to 450 yrds in deflection shots.
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Naudet, your point of view is perfectly respetable, but mine is somewhat different.
For me, K/D ratio is secondary while K/T is primary.
And while you can have some success in surprise attacks, our MA configuration will minimize at maximun the chances of being surprised. In my case, less than 25% of the victims are due to surprise. And that 25% is mainly achieved nearby friendly bases where there are no red dots for the con on the map.
IMO, more than 90% of spits I encounter are used in a very poor way. Some people think spits are easy kills and I disagree, their pilots are easy kills whatever they fly. But the plane itself is a formidable opponent. It is the perfect ride for our furballing MA, but, if you want, it is also an impressive B&Zoomer, excelent diving characteristics, one of the best (if not the best) zoom climber, good control at hi speeds, little E loose whatever you do, excelent hi alt performance and the best guns in AH. The top speed will help you to get quicker to the hunting area, but diving, zoom climbing and guns are the factors that will give you the victims in your B&Z moves.
Flying D9, when I see a higher 190, specially a D9, I use to ignore it. When I see a higher spit the reaction is very different.
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mandoble... If K/T is what you are most concerned about then why the hell are you even bothering with the D9??? In order for the D9 to have a good K/T it would have to turn a whole lot better.. Course, then it wouldn't roll and the top speed would be down but... If you wanna fight then fly a real fighter man!!
Look, if you want a high K/T (and i can understand that) then you can't fly 51's or D9's or even 47's (unless your a BK).
There are two sims in the MA and they don't meet that often. There is the early/mid war set with their high K/T and high F/T (fun/time) ratio and the sky accountants. You chose the head sky accountant plane and are now whining cause it isn't fun.
You want to be able to pick your fight, turn with anyone and then get away with untouchable speed and acceleration.
Spits.. they are dangerous but I ike seeing em and niks a lot more than boring D9's and 51's.. Spits are not that invincible even when flown by the very best. I don't feel at all at a diadvantage in my -1 against say leviathn in a spit. it is a fun fight. I believe he feels the same. Fighting a D9 on the other hand is simply boring. boring for both players in most cases.. Hence... their lack of use.
And that is as it should be.
lazs
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Sorry lazs, but it seems you have not understood me. I'm not talking about D9 focusing into my own experience. I have enough flight hours in this bird to dogfight the spits, n1k2s or anyother plane in our planset, and achieve an average K/T in it (actually 0.0023, same as the previous tour).
For me, D9 is anything but a boring plane. Of course you would tell me that I'm using this bird in a not "formal" way, and I agree.
What I say is that, for me, K/T and K/S are the only important factors, and based on this, I disagree with the idea that D9 is a monster.
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Ok.. so tell me. What are you trying to say? It would appear that you are getting just as good a K/T as any of the spits or niks. It would also make sense that with your K/D you are doing way better than the average Spit pilot and as well as some of the best.. so what's your beef?
The plane is too good? If it is killing rapidly and surviving then you are having fun and surviving no? Why do Spits even bother you? I really doubt that you would do any better in a Spit. Are you saying that you are doing poorly against Spits compared to other planes? Lags are my nemisis.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
...There is the early/mid war set with their high K/T and high F/T (fun/time) ratio and the sky accountants. You chose the head sky accountant plane and are now whining cause it isn't fun.
LOL, never knew I am flying an accountant. Good one ;)
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lazs, I'm neither talking about me, nor anyother people with a lot of hours in a determinate plane. I'm also not talking about newbies. I'm talking about what these planes are for the average pilots. For most of these people, Spit is far superior than D9. And these people are the majority in our MA. A plane is not a monster just because someone with a lot of experience hours in it is able to score a hi K/T, K/S and even a hi K/D.
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I don't really know how who the "average" player is... I have asked for 'average stats' to be published every tour but...
It wouold seem that the stats don't bear out what you are saying. I do ok in the -1a but the plane itself doesn't do well in the arena. I suppose the "average" person is what is reflected in the stats. If that is the case then the D9 is a much better choice for anyone than the Spit... I believe that most people leave the D9 alone because it is boring... even for a LW plane.
lazs
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What stats don't bear out what I'm saying? K/T? K/S? Because K/D alone, for me, means nothing. I'm sure that K/T stat per plane, if someday exist, will bear out just what I'm saying.
K/T seems to be for you, as for me, the main stat in AH. Well, based on that do you think Spit is inferior ot D9?
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Jumping back in with that comment, do you think K/T is the only thing worthy of noting? Is that the sole basis for justifying limiting a plane you dislike? I'm sorry Mandoble, I respect your ability as a pilot but I believe you are waaaaaaay out there on this issue. You are never going to see both a 1940 and a 1942 aircraft perked- not at any price, and you simply shouldn't.
Let go of the obsession. I could even empathize with you if we saw nothing but, "Damn, the Spit is too tough!" on the BBS every day (ok, so maybe I would laugh at that), but the fact is we don't. The Spit is a good all-around aircraft, no doubt, but it isn't the best at anything- not even the guns (it is outgunned by several aircraft).
Your argument of "since we are talking MA it shouldn't matter what year the plane is, only its usage" is hollow too, because there is always going to be a #1 used plane, like it or not. You can't perk them all, my friend. Better to have a #1 plane that is completely beatable in about every way as opposed to something to really fear, say, 262's for free? Or are you going to be silly enough to suggest the Spit is more dangerous than the 262 because the Spit has a higher K/T?
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I've asked this question before & never gotten an answer. When does the clock start? If it is time online & not time in flight, then current k/t is useless, therefore hardly an accurate measure of performance.
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I've asked this question before & never gotten an answer. When does the clock start? If it is time online & not time in flight, then current k/t is useless, therefore hardly an accurate measure of performance.
I'll try to help you out. Take a look at your stats for Tour 23.
Total time in fighters: 37:51:54
Total time in fighters (s): 136314
Total kills in fighters: 203
Kills / Time (s) = 0.001489208738647534369177047 11181537
Round up the ten-thousandths, and you get .0015, as it shows up in the stats. Congradulations, I believe this places you in the coveted "sky accountant" category. :eek: Oh, the irony...
To keep this post slightly on topic - I think the idea that any Spit we have now will ever need to be perked is rediculous.
[edit: forgot a '3']
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Erlkonig ]
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Apache, agree partially with you. There are no statistic that gives us a definitive idea of how dangerous a plane is. IMO, K/D gives you only an idea of how a pilot drives its plane (safety mode or not), but K/T is a much compensated factor, it is telling to you, at least, that killing with that plane is easy, and that, obviously, means that that plane is dangerous.
Kieran, agree, 262 is far more dangerous than any spit. And I'm sure that, if not perked, it would be one of the most used fighters.
In the other hand, D9 is not perked and is not popular. Why? Because average pilots will get little success in it. And due average pilots are the "mass" of our population, that means than D9, in our MA, is less dangerous than a Spit. That "mass" is far more successful flying spits.
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Originally posted by Erlkonig:
I'll try to help you out. Take a look at your stats for Tour 23.
Total time in fighters: 37:51:54
Total time in fighters (s): 136314
Total kills in fighters: 203
Kills / Time (s) = 0.001489208738647534369177047 11181537
Round up the ten-thousandths, and you get .0015, as it shows up in the stats. Congradulations, I believe this places you in the coveted "sky accountant" category. :eek: Oh, the irony...
To keep this post slightly on topic - I think the idea that any Spit we have now will ever need to be perked is rediculous.
[edit: forgot a '3']
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: Erlkonig ]
The 109 I flew last night, with it's mandated leather thong was apparently too tight and I popped a rivet. Please, enlighten me to this irony.
Oh wait, you mean you really do listen to lazs? Now there is irony for ya. :D
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Apache, agree partially with you. There are no statistic that gives us a definitive idea of how dangerous a plane is. IMO, K/D gives you only an idea of how a pilot drives its plane (safety mode or not), but K/T is a much compensated factor, it is telling to you, at least, that killing with that plane is easy, and that, obviously, means that that plane is dangerous.
Kieran, agree, 262 is far more dangerous than any spit. And I'm sure that, if not perked, it would be one of the most used fighters.
In the other hand, D9 is not perked and is not popular. Why? Because average pilots will get little success in it. And due average pilots are the "mass" of our population, that means than D9, in our MA, is less dangerous than a Spit. That "mass" is far more successful flying spits.
Ok Mandoble, I think I see what you're saying. It's not "the" spit thats dangerous, but "those" spits that are dangerous. That right?
So what would perking the spit accomplish? It would simply be...it's not "the" la7 that is dangerous but "those" la7's that are dangerous, would it not?
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Lets suppose that we had a system that add ONE perk point to the base perk of the five more used planes the day after.
Will that help to diversify the planes the people fly?
Will this affect severily the people that want to keep flying spits, n1kj2s and La7s over'n over?
Using one perk to fly a plane does kill that plane in the game and ruin the comunity fun?
Apache, IMO, an spit flown by an average pilot is more dangerous than a D9 flown by the same pilot.
[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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I understand your point but I don't agree with your agenda.
I too enjoy fighting 109's, 190's, P47's and the like much more than the spits and n1ks. However, I am against any rule that limits the choice of others, and benefits only me and my ilk.
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Apache, IMO, an spit flown by an average pilot is more dangerous than a D9 flown by the same pilot.
That I agree with...to a point. Up until said pilot has experience in the D9, then he's just as dangerous, if not more so. D9 in itself is the more outstanding performer of the 2 a/c, yes?
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Two Hundred and Thirty
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I can't believe that so many are choosing to argue with someone stupid enough to try to claim the spit IX should be perked, and the La-7 should be perked while also trying to argue that the Ta152 should not be perked and the Me252 should be much cheaper (because it isn't really that good against fighters).
Sheesh... let him go guys. He pretty much kills the argument all on his own.
AKDejaVu
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Nothing more satisfying than killing a SpitIX as it zooms up to you in your 109G2 while you proceed to rope-a-dope it.
If the SpitIX is too lethal to you, you should trade in your leather thong for a pair of sissy white tights and take up ballet instead of playing air combat games.
-SW
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The 109 I flew last night, with it's mandated leather thong was apparently too tight and I popped a rivet. Please, enlighten me to this irony.
The irony as I saw it was lazs intended use of "sky accountant" for P51/190D9/people with K/T below .0045 or whatever, and it ended up including his own squaddie (and he apparently didn't even know it).
Oh wait, you mean you really do listen to lazs? Now there is irony for ya.
If by "listen to lazs", you mean "Reinforce reasons for not taking drugs", ok. You're close - but the real irony would be if I took him seriously (I don't).
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AKDejaVu, you are not the more indicated one to talk about the people stupidity. In fact, I'm absolutely sure you were, are and will be unable to get to any of my points. And no, this time its not my english.
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people with K/T below .0045 or whatever, and it ended up including his own squaddie (and he apparently didn't even know it).
You think thats what he means by "sky accountant"? lol...lol...roflmao.
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me he perdido algo? :D
oORKAo
PD: solo se una cosa, el mejor... el spit muerto
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In fact, I'm absolutely sure you were, are and will be unable to get to any of my points.
You are correct. And with more points like "The Me262 will not do that well against fighters", I will continue to fail to get any of your points.
and with that... I leave you to wallow in your self induced misery.
AKDejaVu
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Jaja, no Orka, estas a tiempo de entrar a saco.
Djvu, If I have to choice between keep into "myself inducted misery" or an ocean of your wisdom ... No decission could be easier
:D
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This is getting diddlying retarded, Spits suck and so do most of their pilots, they are easy to kill. LA5 (not retard flown LA7), Yak9U, c205, and P47 are much more dangerous because they are often flown by skilled pilots.
Its diddlying shsmeful this is almost a 250 post thread, yes 250 as in 1000/4 or one quarter of 1000 posts.
Eeryone shut up and go away this is retarded.
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I read stuff like this and, like KBman, I absolutely REJOICE that HTC is in command and not one of these "my way is the TRUE way to fly" guys.
What a boring game it would be if one of those guys were in charge instead. I know I'd be playing something else somewhere else. I suspect I wouldn't be the only one either.
It does, however, make me want to grab a beer and sing a few choruses of "Perk 'em all" again. ;)
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Man this thread is sweet. All it's missing is a couple of I Quit tirades.