Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mathman on June 02, 2002, 07:51:34 PM
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Why do some people care what others fly? I don't get it.
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Bah, Nobody cares what others fly.
It's a question of what others kill you with :P
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Hehehe He has a point Mathman.
However its not the plane, its the pilot!
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Originally posted by Ghosth
However its not the plane, its the pilot!
Not when the pilots are evenly matched, or nearly so. Or if both pilots happen to be extremly good.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Not when the pilots are evenly matched, or nearly so. Or if both pilots happen to be extremly good.
You're right. Then it's luck.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The people who care what other's fly want an environment that matches what they imagine reality was like.
"The (pick your plane) was the bestest in the world and should dominate the (popular plane), but it doesn't and that's wrong!!!!"
Everybody likes to think that their favorite plane was a cut above the rest, just like most people think they are good drivers, or above average at least. But like drivers, they can't all be a cut above the rest and people get disappointed and frusterated when their imaginings don't get realized on the computer screen.
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The whines are really getting old. Each plane has it's own set of strengths and weakenesses. Play to your aircrafts strengths and magnify the bogey's weakenesses and you will be at peace. ;)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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If I can up anf F6F my world is at peace. The rest of the arena can up jets for all I care. People seem to care about what other people fly when they are dieing a lot.
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Originally posted by Mathman
Why do some people care what others fly? I don't get it.
I get it, sort of, though I don't share the sentiment.
The reason I get it is because there are situations I find myself in often, typically at low energy, where a La-7 or a N1K2 would really ruin my day, but another plane I could probably get away from. If I cared more about "living" in the game, I'd probably get really upset (sometimes I lose perspective and get upset anyway, but I usually log when that happens because I don't like persisting in stupid behavior.)
What I usually try to do is make some sardonic crack or another on the squad channel, then fight the fight (or run) the best that I can.
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Math
I care what other people fly. Not so much who flies it but how many. Simply put, I don't care how many aircraft I shoot down, or how many planes shoot me down, it's WHAT plane (for me) at all times. I've got a pretty good record for knocking Nik's/Spits and La7's out of the air (actually it's about even), it just gets old. Tonight, I was THRILLED as I got into a very fun fight in my Pony-B with a Ta-152, ended up using all my ammo and he was still alive (dang things are tougher than I thought). It was awesome.. No spits, niks or La7's in SIGHT!! In other words... some goob cherry picker didn't notice the two of us duking it out just out of icon range of the furball. I didn't even get the inevitable N1K point and click geek sneak in.. totally awesome, fights like that are hard to find these days. It boils down to whats easy and what takes a little work. I don't care what anyone flies, but don't ask me to laud your skill if you get fixated on me and chase me to Egypt and back in a La7.. and don't whine if I waggle my wings at your Spit, wave goodbye and fly on to a fight that might offer me something more than the old spitty "turn into target" routine followed shortly by the nerd La7 diving in to cherry pick. Well, I've said my thing enough times on this board.... but one last time (not), it would be nice to spend MORE time fighting things other than Nik's Spits and La7's. That will never change though... the path of least resistance is the choice of most of course of course. See.. I can whine with the best.
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To be a competant experienced Combat Flight Sim pilot, both respected and revered by your peers, you must whine about the following in every sim you fly, everytime you fly.
1. Head Ons.
2. Uber Planes.
3. Packet Loss and Warp.
4. Numbers per side.
5. Stick shaking.
6. Altered code.
7. Rubber Bullets.
8. N00b questions.
9. Irrelevant Comms Chatter and
10. Chute shooting.
If you arent doing at least 3 or more of the above at every field you fly, you can hardly expect the rest of us to take you seriously can you?
Now......
Stop filling up the forum with nonsensible N00b questions, that take up space and take that rubber bullet, chute shooting, head on killin' warpy Uber plane of yours and get back in the sky with all your overwhelming in number stick shaking Bish buddies!
:p
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The Dueling Arena awaits the uncountable hordes who wish for a pure , uninterrupted 1 V 1 fight matching one particular airplane against another particular airplane.
Apparently though either the uncountable hordes haven't heard of the dueling arena or else those wishing for the pure 1 V 1, plane v plane joust actually prefer the MA.
:D
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Originally posted by scspook
To be a competant experienced Combat Flight Sim pilot, both respected and revered by your peers, you must whine about the following in every sim you fly, everytime you fly.
1. Head Ons.
2. Uber Planes.
3. Packet Loss and Warp.
4. Numbers per side.
5. Stick shaking.
6. Altered code.
7. Rubber Bullets.
8. N00b questions.
9. Irrelevant Comms Chatter and
10. Chute shooting.
Its an on-line sim... you forgot accusing the other player of having a "golden connection/system".
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Toad
The Dueling Arena awaits the uncountable hordes who wish for a pure , uninterrupted 1 V 1 fight matching one particular airplane against another particular airplane.
Apparently though either the uncountable hordes haven't heard of the dueling arena or else those wishing for the pure 1 V 1, plane v plane joust actually prefer the MA.
:D
Toad
If your referring to me (?) please read on, if not, stop here.... Assuming your are referring to my post (or a like one) you are reading it completely wrong. Don't assume I only want to fight single aircraft, or aircraft type. Further, don't try and lump me into a class of folk with blinder's on.. My example of my fight tonight is just a stand-out oddity. I'm usually flying in support of base capture operations of some sort and my irk is NOT because Spits/Niks/La7s give me a problem. It's just the fact that THAT is ALL you see. Ya know, it's even cornier thinking that these guyz take off at all.. just show's the lack of thought. They seldom last long, usually get vulched and really should'a thought about upping at a base further away.. "Quakeitis" pure and simple.
My response would be addressed to the uncountable hordes who want to do nothing but furball and add absolutely nothing to the Strato Landgrab fight (that just so happens to be whats happening more often than not in the MA) Why can't THEY be the ones who get invited to the DA? The MA has Strat.. not to mention a goal to reach. Further, the DA has a big fat area with 3 bases labled "Furball Central".
Well anyway lol... I will without doubt spend the majority of my time post 1.10 learning how to remove the take-off option from enemy bases producing a furball in as few passes as possible :D Each time I get a squeak about it, I will simply smile and point to "Furball Central".
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Since i just played Ace's High for the 2week trial. I probably have no place to say my 2cents but here goes anyways.
I liked Ace's High cause it has lots of people and lots of missions going on at all times. I enjoyed the buffs even though there tough as nails to shoot down sometimes but all in all it was very challenging to say the least.
If your going to have all plane all the time this is going to happen
people will pick the very best plane to fly most of the time or aleast the plane they think is the best.
If and when you can get this game to become a historical game where you have all countries represented with there allied nations. and fight Allied vs Axis for example then you can set it the Tour of Duty to be on a historical time line. Where you have early war planes fighting early war planes then slowly introduce the Planes as the war progresses untill you have all planes available. Then you will have a game that make any kind a sense.
Where stratigic elements are envolved. Hopefully you will have Historical Maps to go along with it to make it very imersive.I would love to seen all ju88's flying together in mock war theater.
or lancaster,b17's so on. I know it happens now once in a while. Then you have a p51 shooting down a b17 or a spit shooting downa lancaster and so on and it just takes the imersion factor and you sling it right out the window. then it's just another game that will have the precieved best plane against each other,and strats just don't matter that much any more. Take up a plane and furball.
This game has wonderful stratigic element to it but when you put it together with the all planes for all concept it just deminish it's imersive potential.We all know what potential this game has.
I hate for it to become 2 seprate arenas one for furballing and the other for Historical battles.Because then it would be cut into pieces and less people would be playing in each arena. Then you wouldnt have as many planes upping for those wonderful buff runs that i seen. Just really enjoyed see that many buffs up at one time and being able to try and dive in on them with abandon.
I know it's long winded sorry. just MHO.
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Originally posted by Griego
Since i just played Ace's High for the 2week trial. I probably have no place to say my 2cents but here goes anyways.
I liked Ace's High cause it has lots of people and lots of missions going on at all times. I enjoyed the buffs even though there tough as nails to shoot down sometimes but all in all it was very challenging to say the least.
If your going to have all plane all the time this is going to happen
people will pick the very best plane to fly most of the time or aleast the plane they think is the best.
If and when you can get this game to become a historical game where you have all countries represented with there allied nations. and fight Allied vs Axis for example then you can set it the Tour of Duty to be on a historical time line. Where you have early war planes fighting early war planes then slowly introduce the Planes as the war progresses untill you have all planes available. Then you will have a game that make any kind a sense.
Where stratigic elements are envolved. Hopefully you will have Historical Maps to go along with it to make it very imersive.I would love to seen all ju88's flying together in mock war theater.
or lancaster,b17's so on. I know it happens now once in a while. Then you have a p51 shooting down a b17 or a spit shooting downa lancaster and so on and it just takes the imersion factor and you sling it right out the window. then it's just another game that will have the precieved best plane against each other,and strats just don't matter that much any more. Take up a plane and furball.
This game has wonderful stratigic element to it but when you put it together with the all planes for all concept it just deminish it's imersive potential.We all know what potential this game has.
I hate for it to become 2 seprate arenas one for furballing and the other for Historical battles.Because then it would be cut into pieces and less people would be playing in each arena. Then you wouldnt have as many planes upping for those wonderful buff runs that i seen. Just really enjoyed see that many buffs up at one time and being able to try and dive in on them with abandon.
I know it's long winded sorry. just MHO.
WOW!! I hope you carry on after the 2wk trial!
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Originally posted by Mathman
Why do some people care what others fly? I don't get it.
Math, this game is about the plane you fly and the planes you fight.
Lets suppose we had and arena full of 109G10 flying at 30k and you were in love with La7, would you be worried about what the rest of people is flying or not?
Based on your topic, perk system has no sense, if you want to fly 262, fly it, if you want to fly 202, fly it and so on. Sooner or later the C202 pilots will start to be bored of getting killed over and over by the 262 horde, but, at the same time, they are not going to have fun flying anything else than C202.
Personally, am I happy killing spit after spit? NO, its boring.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Math, this game is about the plane you fly and the planes you fight.
I think you missed the point...maybe lost in the translation or something. I think what Mathman is saying is what business is it of yours that someone prefers to fly the La7 or some other of these so-called "uber" planes?
Lets suppose we had and arena full of 109G10 flying at 30k and you were in love with La7, would you be worried about what the rest of people is flying or not?.
Nope, I'd dive for the deck and drag them through my base's field acks. Only a soon to be dead pilot would take a La7 up to an altitude where it performs poorly against a plane that out performs it at altitude.
Ack-Ack
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akak, I didnt miss the point.
It is what you fly and what you fight what should matter for you as a customer of a flight sim. Would you buy a combat flight sim where you fly F6F and all the enemies are A6M3? Why do you worry about fighting only A6M3 when you are able to fly your preferred ride (F6F as an example)? Of course, probably you are not going to buy that monotone sim.
In the all flying strato G10s and you flying La7 scenary, probably, the G10s would be fighting each other at hi alt and ignoring you all the time. The result: you'll get a bit bored.
How many plane types cover more than 50% of MA plane usage? 2? 3? HTC is working on more and more planes, most if not all of them will be forgotten after first week and the people will return to their hispano/la7/n1k2 routine.
For example, I like to fly the 190 family, but in the case they become overused, I'll ask to perk them all for sure.
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Ask yourself, why would I pay $15US a month (About $30 AUS) to fly a plane you would prefer me to cause you see to much of it.
I can answer for you to save time...
I wouldnt.
The game is the bottom line. And Players make the game. Not the planes. Not the code and not the special events. The players. One thing that happens to be consistant in all Flight Sims. Why cut off your nose to spite your face. The 262 is dangerous and never appeared against many of the early war planes. Hence its perked. Likewise with the Spit 14. You didnt see many go up against the 109E.
We play an unrealistic 3 side, take any plane you like kind of game. Take the one I want most away with no sound reason based on the style of game we play with and chances are, I and many others would follow. Then their would only be you in a Spit free, La7 free sky.
I hate a 3 sided game. I think its more than a little stupid. I hate the idea that I can fly Axis aircraft AND Allied aircraft no matter what side I choose. So why am I here?
Im here for my La7 and the players that both do and dont fly them.
Best $15US a month ive ever spent.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Math, this game is about the plane you fly and the planes you fight.
Lets suppose we had and arena full of 109G10 flying at 30k and you were in love with La7, would you be worried about what the rest of people is flying or not?
Based on your topic, perk system has no sense, if you want to fly 262, fly it, if you want to fly 202, fly it and so on. Sooner or later the C202 pilots will start to be bored of getting killed over and over by the 262 horde, but, at the same time, they are not going to have fun flying anything else than C202.
Personally, am I happy killing spit after spit? NO, its boring.
That doesnt make any sense.
If everyone is at 30k and I'm always down low in my LA7, thats MY problem, I chose to fly it, and they chose to go high. I can do two things, take a P-38L and go kill the high planes, or stay in the LA7 and whine all day like a retarded schoolgirl for the others to come down.
You analogies are moot, just because there are so many plane choices.
The cool thing is, that the developers or the other players will never give in your annoying whining, and the game will always be geared to the people who want to have fun, and not for the crybabies :)
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
For example, I like to fly the 190 family, but in the case they become overused, I'll ask to perk them all for sure.
the 190 family is too crappy to become overused and perked. altho the dorka is quite easy to get kills in if you lilke to fly like a weenie, sort of like an la7 except it doesn't climb as well.
:D
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Originally posted by scspook
I hate a 3 sided game. I think its more than a little stupid. I hate the idea that I can fly Axis aircraft AND Allied aircraft no matter what side I choose. So why am I here?
well, perhaps because you've gotten into the MA habit and have forgotten there's a Combat Theatre precisiely for people with your tastes.
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What's the big deal with N1K1's and La's?
I fly 190-A5 and kill them all the time.
A few yo-yo's and these guys are dead.
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It is not only a matter of raw performance, it is a matter of numbers, but as a vicious circle, performance means overusage.
The problem is not being able to kill the enemy, but to be killing the same enemy type most of the time over and over. I think that even for spit pilots should be boring to keep killing and being killed by spits most of the time.
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Originally posted by Mathman
Why do some people care what others fly? I don't get it.
Well Math, it's like this........
Folks get killed alot and instead of working harder to learn something, they want others, or the sim, to adjust to thier mediocrity. If they spent the same amount of time learning some skills as they do complaining, their world would be full of flowers and butterflies:)
The amount of La7's and Spits have actually helped me sharpen certain skills in the Mustang....I can successfully turnfight La7's and Spits trying to force an error on the bandits part, if they fly it smart, I just make an angle, get some distance and try it again. It's fun to face a challenge.
I have long thought of those who express a desire to create some kind of fair only existence in our sim as Socialists...removing any kind of inbalance so as to make us all milk white.
Diversity is a good thing, especially in Aces High:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Diversity is a good thing, especially in Aces High:)
This is just our main leak.
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I have to agree with Rude. I just don't find the average Spit, N1k, LA7 that difficult to deal with in my F6F. If they are a great pilot and know their stuff they can eat my lunch if I'm not perfect, but that's good to.
I approach learning ACM like studying a martial art. You need to fight tough opponents if you ever want to get better. If I'm going to get better I don't mind jumping into a fight were there may be a perceived unfair advantage.
A perfect example is a Spit. Spits can out turn Hellcats with the same pilot on the stick. Most Spit pilots will always flat turn to get around on you. Knowing this allows you to set them up because they are so predictable. I learned this not because I was born with it, or because the Hellcat has some top secret turn cheat code. I learned this because I spent months getting whacked by Spits. Instead of rushing in here screaming for a perk or telling people to stop flying Spits. I sat behind my sticks at home and went through a self study course in anger management :). After a while I actually learned a few things. There is a lot of satisfaction to be found in winning a fight your not supposed to win.
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in my experience its the nik and la7 pilots who have moved onto other aircraft that moan the most...
I have no problem what anyone flys, what dose it matter? You will always have a chance of engageing a plane which just might have a better pilot than you. the trick is to try and evaluate that pilot before putting yourself in harms way... exaple if hes much lower than you and trys to engage you stright on, then he will more likly be an inexperience pilot. engage!.. if he flys away to gain alt out of range of you then come back and blasts you out of the sky then its your own fault for not seeing it comming.. you should have engaged earlyer with advantage...
it always comes down to the pilot and how he thinks and plans his attacks..
when to strike ,
when to avoid a fight ,
how to sucker your enemy into your type of fight..
its not the aircraft because they can all be beaten. so it must always be the pilot..
ive seen hurricans shoot down P51s.. ive seen IL2 shoot down N1ks.
im not the best fighter pilot ( not even close) but i like to fight the better pilots because you learn so much..
so i would like to see more text saying nice fight, good kill.. rather than nik dweeb get in a real plane and i will really show you how to cry..
this tour i flown spit 5 predominatly, last tour it was P47 d25.. next tour i think its gonna be Hurricane..
none of the above apply to furballing ( which i think is the scurge of the MA.. but each to his own) furballing levels the playing field some what and other factors come into play.. but thats a different subject..
so to sum up.. please respect all players regardless as to what they decided to fly.. its their money after all..
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mandoble, it must get boring flying 190s all the time. You should fly something else.
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Originally posted by Animal
That doesnt make any sense.
If everyone is at 30k and I'm always down low in my LA7, thats MY problem, I chose to fly it, and they chose to go high. I can do two things, take a P-38L and go kill the high planes, or stay in the LA7 and whine all day like a retarded schoolgirl for the others to come down.
You analogies are moot, just because there are so many plane choices.
The cool thing is, that the developers or the other players will never give in your annoying whining, and the game will always be geared to the people who want to have fun, and not for the crybabies :)
As usuall out comes the "whine" and "crybaby" crap along with the .."I do what I want B.S." It's not like certain subjects haven't been voiced AND fixed before. There's enough people making noise about the subject, it's hardly a whine. It's not about individual personal preference.. it's about the tendency of the MA to be chock full of Spits/La7s/N1K's. Nobody even accused these people of dominating the arena and causing things to go haywire because of it. All that was said (quite well) is it gets BOREING having the same'ole same'ole routine present itself every time. Mandoble voiced his opinion in a well thought out manner and it's anything but moot, crying "whine" or "crybaby" is just the standard admission you don't have a valid argument. Besides that it would be nice if folks had the testicular fortitude to keep themselves from insulting other's opinions. It wouldn't take much to balance things out in the MA... might not even hurt anyones feelings, or make anyone cry, I think thats all anyone is asking.
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Some of us idiots fly certain planes in the MA just for the pleasure of using them! For instance, you'll 99% of the time find me in an FW190A8. You'll prolly say why? It doesn't turn, even when out of fuel! It can't turn with anything, it can't outclimb any fighter here either. It does roll very well however but in evasive maneuvers low the roll is only a temporary reprieve from death usually because 86 more fighters will jump in to the fight to kill the FW The reason I prefer it is because it's not easy! It's just dam fun! I'll get my kills in it, and lockup in some good 1 vs 1s against spit, N1Ks and La7s.......I will get shot down......and I will shoot them down. depends on the pilots skill. I prefer not the use the 30mm cannons either....to me their trajectory drop is not healthy when trying snap shots or high deflection shots. It's just plain fun to fly it and fight in it. To hell with the stats! If ya wanna be serious fly the tourneys, TODs and snapshots. I do, and when I do I put my serious ballgame hat on:D But in the MA fly what ya like, have fun...........and learn!
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Mandoble & Tumor: So if I understand, you guys would want to dictate what other people fly because you don't like the numbers of the type of aircraft you see. Pardon me for saying but don't you think that's a bit pretentious on your part? Aces High offers a variety of planes and game features which allows for a variety of styles of play. What makes your style of play so much more important and better than someone elses style of play that would make it an imperative for you to tell them what to fly?
As Epictetus, a Roman Stoic Philosopher says...
Of all the things in the world, ask not that events should happen as you will, but let your will be that events should happen as they do, and you will have peace.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
Mandoble & Tumor: So if I understand, you guys would want to dictate what other people fly because you don't like the numbers of the type of aircraft you see. Pardon me for saying but don't you think that's a bit pretentious on your part? Aces High offers a variety of planes and game features which allows for a variety of styles of play. What makes your style of play so much more important and better than someone elses style of play that would make it an imperative for you to tell them what to fly?
As Epictetus, a Roman Stoic Philosopher says...
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
.. noooo Read the post(s) without automaticly coming to the conclusion that anyone is trying to dictate anything. If I could "dictate" anything Spit's/Niks/La7's would be perked VERY high. Fortunately, I can't dictate anything. I can however request that "something" be done to SLOW the spit/n1k/la7 fite, rinse repeat, do again ad nauseum. Notice the word SLOW.. I didn't say stop or get rid of any plane or make people do something they don't want... just SLOOOOW the situation with a mild little tweak of HTC choosing. Is this too hard to understand? I'm all for "loose" gameplay.. I'm even MORE for craploads of people in the CT, doesn't happen, therefore I'm kinda stuck rolling into a fight anywhere, anytime turning into the same thing it nearly always does. It's not like I do badly in these situations.. its JUST the frequency OF the situation. Do you REALLY never get tired of seeing what we're talking about?
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Heh, imagine if the countries were separated by AC. Bishops would be US/Italian, Rooks would be British/Japanese, Knits would be Russian/German.
The horror! :)
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(http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/indoubt.jpg)
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I really don't care who flys what. But here's an idea.
Rather than perking an over used plane type, I think it would be a neat feature to have each plane type associated with a factory. And if a country's "N1K1" factory is destoryed then no one in that country can take off in a "N1K1" for 1 hour. AW had a simular feature to this for spits. (this would not affect planes that are already in the air or are hotpadded)
So if you hate N1K1's get in a buff and do something about it!
And with the new buffing model... this would give the buffers something extra to go after - rather than the same ol base close/capture and kill the country radar runs.
And another twist to this...
Damage to a factory (but not destroyed) causes the plane to be perked. It's that supply and demand thing. 1 perk for every 2% damage (this should vary according to the plane type). This way even a partially successful run causes trouble.
Factories should not be easy to destroy either.
One 3-buff formation should only beable to put at most 10% damage on a factory.
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Tumor, yes it is too hard to understand. SLOWING the "la7/n1k2/spit fite" is telling other people what they can and can't fly based solely on YOUR definition of what the MA fight should be like, IMO. Please tell me how and why I am wrong in that assessment.
Beyond that, what is your recommendation for slowing the "la7/n1k2/spit fite"?
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DIVERSITY !!!!
Most in the MA r just like sheeps an go with the flock
That's all
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Nifty, suppose you are a fan of Ta152H, but it is perked here. Do you feel AH is forcing you to fly lesser planes, do you feel your freedom killed by this fact? Ta152H has little or nothing in common with the rest of 190 family, you just cant go to an earlier version of the Ta, same for 262 fans. La7 fans has La5, SpitIX fans has three other spit versions, in the case D9 becomes perked, 190 fans has 3 other versions too to keep flying with the stile they like to fly and so on with most of the planes. Will 2 perks kill the fun of SpitIX pilots cause they are unable to fly anything else?
The "fly what you like freely" movement should think twice about unperked 262, for example. What about 262 representing 15% of planeset usage?
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Will two perks on the Spit IX accomplish what you want to see in terms of less SPIT tags in the Arena? No, you'll just see the same number of SPIT tags, but just more Spit Vs and Seafires. Will you advocate perking the Spit V and Seafire after that? Even the Spit I?
Ta152? do a search on my name and Ta152. In almost every instance, you'll see me advocating it to be unperked (and reperking it if the usage approaches anything like the CHog).
The Me262 is a jet. It deserves to be perked because the performance is beyond anything else in the game.
The Spit XIV if unperked would need to be perked because of usage. Almost every Spit jockey would use the XIV if it was free.
The F4U-4 and Tempest are monsters, tho not 50+ perk point monsters. They also, as you say, have lesser brothers that can be used.
I'm not for free everything (tho I am for free Ta152). I'm against perking something because a few people get bored of "seeing the same planes over and over again" and trying to tell the rest of the players what they can and can't fly based on their boredom.
my earlier post Mandoble was just what it was. Does flying the 190 almost all of the time get boring for you? Because flying the Spit V (or occasionally the Spit I) almost all of the time never gets boring for me.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Nifty, suppose you are a fan of Ta152H, but it is perked here. Do you feel AH is forcing you to fly lesser planes, do you feel your freedom killed by this fact? Ta152H has little or nothing in common with the rest of 190 family, you just cant go to an earlier version of the Ta, same for 262 fans. La7 fans has La5, SpitIX fans has three other spit versions, in the case D9 becomes perked, 190 fans has 3 other versions too to keep flying with the stile they like to fly and so on with most of the planes. Will 2 perks kill the fun of SpitIX pilots cause they are unable to fly anything else?
Ta152 are not 1942 planes. Nor are 262s.
Yet, you compare 2 1944 planes (which I made bold) to a 1942 plane (SpitIX) to give an argument for perking it.
Is that so you can reign supreme in your mighty LuftWannabe steeds against hoards of pityfully underpowered 1940 and 1941 Spitfires?
-SW
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
no one in that country can take off in a "N1K1" for 1 hour.
I can honestly say that I have never seen too many N1K1s in the game.
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quick look at the stats (pre-Deja Vu list, think of it as an exit poll!)
I just pulled some stats for a few planes, not the whole set.
~477,000 kills so far total
plane - kills/deaths
Spit IX - 36080/34462
N1K2 - 30602/25938
P-51D - 29416/28550
La-7 - 26920/21803
F6F-5 - 20069/22051
P-38L - 16658/20148
F4U-1D - 16308/19123
Spit V - 15602/16820
109G-10 - 12244/11669
Seafire - 12091/12822
A6M5b - 11828/15336
190D-9 - 10985/8267
CHog - 6223/3060
F4U-1 - 3976/3822
Spit I - 909/2843
Not one plane is over 10%. In fact, not one single plane is over 8% (Spit IX is about 7.6%). Together the 4 unperked spits run at 64682 kills or 13.6%. The F4U-1C was running near 20% of all kills when it was perked. FOUR planes lumped together aren't even coming close to that percentage and people are asking for something to be done about it... hmm... makes ya wonder.
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Aww, Nifty has replied before I could compose a response. I see that we're of a kindred spirit on this matter (except with the TA 152 ;) ). Well said Nifty on your two replies.
Mandoble: The perk system is not limiting someone's style of play but aircraft that have an uneven advantage over the majority of aircraft in AH. As mentioned by Nifty we well should be limited from a relative aircraft performance standpoint.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I was replying against the idea of fly what you want. That idea implies no perk system, no overusage argument, no jet argument, no year argument, just fly what you want cause else you'll have your freedom killed.
Ok, I want to fly 262 cause it is in the game, and you cant force me to fly props when I like to fly jets, and so on, unperk it ...
All of you thinking that asking to perk planes to balance the planeset usage is just a dictatorship move against you, think about the 262 example, or are you going to be dictator enough to keep it perked to me?
dtango, what is performance for you? turning? diving? climbing? hi speed control? low speed control? roll rate? acceleration? top speed at lo level? top speed at hi alt? E retention? armament? range? AG capability? stall speed? number of engines? visibility? durability? The sum of the above? Which order?
Actually, it is generalized to consider top speed (at some alt) the only factor, and IMO this is a big mistake.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
I was replying against the idea of fly what you want. That idea implies no perk system, no overusage argument, no jet argument, no year argument, just fly what you want cause else you'll have your freedom killed.
Ok, I want to fly 262 cause it is in the game, and you cant force me to fly props when I like to fly jets, and so on, unperk it ...
All of you thinking that asking to perk planes to balance the planeset usage is just a dictatorship move against you, think about the 262 example, or are you going to be dictator enough to keep it perked to me?
dtango, what is performance for you? turning? diving? climbing? hi speed control? low speed control? roll rate? acceleration? top speed at lo level? top speed at hi alt? E retention? armament? range? AG capability? stall speed? number of engines? visibility? durability? The sum of the above? Which order?
Actually, it is generalized to consider top speed (at some alt) the only factor, and IMO this is a big mistake.
Do you have anything to address the newly provided information that contradicts your claims as to the overusage of the Spit? If not, then I guess that's case closed now isn't it?
-Sikboy
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Flying what you want doesn't imply that a perk system is not in place to keep relative aircraft performance in balance. There is sufficient reason to keep things "fair" from this perspective.
On the otherhand, your original answer to Mathman is that you care what others fly because this is boring to you. Mine and Nifty's reply was that changing the balance of game play to what you find less boring by reducing the numbers of La-7's, Spits, and N1K2's is dictating to others what you think the arena should look like because of your preference. The difference is that you want to perk to change the game play to your preference while the current perk system is intended to keep the game balanced from a relative aircraft performance standpoint.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Actually, unperk them all and see what the usage would be for a tour. I'd have absolutely nothing against a totally free tour.
To argue the point though... Yes, I am that much of a dictator, actually HTC is. I am not for the fly ANY thing you want principle. I want the Me262 perked, and the other high performance monster rides as well. F4U-1C? I dunno, but HTC thought it was "everywhere". I bet if you disable it from carriers and unperk it, it's usage wouldn't be nearly as bad as it was before it was perked.
Obviously the Spit IX, Spit V, Seafire, and Spit I are not perked for their performance issues. The world will laugh at you if you think 1942 and earlier planes should be perked on their performance. ;) So we can only compare the perking of the Spitfires to the perking of the F4U-1C. Comparing it to any other perk ride is comparing apples and oranges. Not one of the Spit variants has ever come close to the kill % of the F4U-1C (which we can use as HTC's bar for perking on usage stats.) Only if you combined all the Spits do you get the F4U-1C kill %. In this tour, the Spit usage has dropped off on its own. You'd be suggesting to perk a plane (Spit IX) that has just 7.65% of the kills, just over 1/3 of what it took to get the CHog perked. Hmm, let's just change SPIT to be SPIT9, SPIT5, SEAFR, SPIT1. Then you won't see so many SPIT tags. ;)
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For me relative performance advantage goes to the plane that has the higher probability to get kills without getting killed. A combination of characteristics can be combined to give an aircraft this ability relative to others. For me these characteristics can be generalized in the following rank (1) top level speed, (2) best rate of climb, (3) turn performance and (4) air-to-air armament. The aircraft that has more of the above combinations and is better in these categories relative to other aircraft have a lot more options to him to dictate the fight vs. his foes.
But we are talking about relative aircraft performance. Mandoble- your original answer to Mathman's question was that you care what others fly because the numbers make it boring. With the above line of thought related to performance are you changing your answer?
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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It seems like every "furball" I see, there are plenty of 190s hovering high and doing the "cherrypicker" routine. They are a hard plane to catch and deadly if flown right (as is any other plane).
I decided to take the 190 up for a few flights to see what it can and can't do. Didn't like it, not my kind of plane, but those few rides clued me into the failure points of this plane and I remebered these. Now when I see a 190, I know how to avoid them and if they make a mistake, I know how to kill them. I had 24 kills of the 190 vs. 4 deaths by 190s last tour.
Maybe if mandoble and all the other whiners actually flew the planes that they wish to regulate, they might get a clue on what their true failings are, and learn to take advantage of them.
I prefer, as well as others, to TnB (actually I prefer JABO), while many others prefer to BnZ, but why don't we hear from the TnB crowd to PERK the BnZ planes? Its not fair that they drop out of the sky at +400 mph ... take a shot and extent D 4.0 out to start the process all over again ... waaaaaa !!!!
Also, if there are so MANY spitfires down low TnBing, wouldn't that make it a target rich environment for the BnZer ? It should be like shootin' fish in a barrel ... right ?
If you want to regulate what plane(s) that I will fly, then I will gladly give you my PayPal Id and when the $15 deposit is made into my account, I will fly whatever you want.
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There is no Spit/N1K/La7 endless furball principal in AH.
Those that see one are seeing what they want to see. They thrive on whining.
Everytime I play I see lots of variety, including Spits, N1Ks and La-7s.
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The reply to your post and the reply to math are different things. Math asked why to be concerned about others fly, you supported a perk system based only in "performance", two very different "topics".
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Why do some people care what others fly? I don't get it.
We care, just like a duelist who shows up with an air pistol and realizes his opponent has an M249 and body armor.
Given equal skills, the guy with the better weapon will almost always win. If you choose to use a crappy weapon, then your chance of success depends greatly on what weapon your opponent chooses. That's why we care about what other people fly.
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Because it makes it much easier to draw from the list of prepared excuses.
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exactly funked.
I can compare the AH situation to what the Japanese Samurai faced when the Europeans brought guns.
On one side there was the Samurai class : Born from a priviledged family/caste (aka good nutrition and education when a child for the most part), trained and drilled to kill since childhood.. end result was a superb soldier, deadly with his hands, feet, bow, spear and blade.
On the other side you had the Ashigaru. Or Peasant soldiers. Born from the lowest class of society, Ignorant in both education and warfare. The Samurai class used them as pawns, mere rabble to butcher and act as meat shields. BUT once guns came in, a wimpy retarded farmer could be plucked from the rice fields, trained in using a gun in less than a week and this peasant would have a damn good chance of killing a Samurai. In fact, they killed so many that the samurai leaders eventually had to resort to using mostly guns in their armies. As SHOGUN:ME put it in their intro movie, a samurai narrating : "(after guns changed warfare).. I now desire victory more than honour.."
And in AH we have a similar issue. One group is skilled and is able to fly a wide variety of AC and generally stick to the few they personally like. Another group is the skilless (newbies or powergamers) that dont have a clue about ACM and get creamed by everyone, including themselves, when they take off.
Then the Sheep come and give them "certain" planes that allows them to come to equal terms with the skilled group just by the perfomance of said planes.No particular effort needed to succeed in them. ACM becomes irrelevant. And of course, the sheep make it widely avaliable and the battlefield becomes clogged with them.
Until it came to such a point where the skilled group HAS to fly said "certain" planes or limit their choice of other planes in order to be able to fight off the hordes of dweebshigaru's. ;)
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Until it came to such a point where the skilled group HAS to fly said "certain" planes or limit their choice of other planes in order to be able to fight off the hordes of dweebshigaru's.
Not if they are as skilled as they claim to be. Certainly not when they can still outrun any of the bullets a peasant can fire.
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Sounds kinda hypocritial to me.
You have a choice of what to fly. Fly it and dont squeak if someone kills you because you brought a knife to a gun fight.
Personally I like the fact that there is a wide range of planes and skill levels in the game. I love killing a better plane in my lesser plane simply because I outflew the other guy. If it were not for this opportunity I would quickly become bored with the game.
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I think most of you know why I asked this. I was curious as to what drove a lot of the threads and whines in this game/board.
I do care about what the other guy flies in terms of how I approach fighting him, but I could care less about his choice of plane. Don't know if that makes any sense.
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Originally posted by Tac
Then the Sheep come and give them "certain" planes that allows them to come to equal terms with the skilled group just by the perfomance of said planes.No particular effort needed to succeed in them. ACM becomes irrelevant.
In this statement, the "allows them to come to equal terms with the skilled group" and the "ACM becomes irrelevant" statements vie with each other to claim the title of "Most Incorrect Assessment In The Entire Thread".
It's just to close to call, however.
In my humble opinion, of course.
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Un-fricken-believable...
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You people take everything too seriously. :D
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Actually, Funkedup made a damn good point, and so did Tac. That is pretty much why I 'care' what other people fly. And to be honest, the only plane I really hate is the LA-7, because it outperforms the planes I like to fly in practically every area (except flat-turning for a few- and most Spit pilots should know that flat turning does jack toejam against a plane that will only BnZZzzz you).
Spits and N1Ks are generally to slow to inspire any fear in me, most of the time.
I will say that some people's attitudes are sort of puzzling to me. How can people say 'You can only tell me what to fly when you pay my monthly fee' without realizing that as a population, the people who inhabit the Main arena DO force people to fly certain planes or die. For instance, the Me109E will see very low usage, forever. The reason for this is that the Spit IX, Spit V, and N1K2 outperform it in every area. A good pilot in a 109E has probably a 50% chance of winning a fight with 1 Spit or N1K2.. assuming the Spit or N1K pilot isn't very good and makes a lot of mistakes. A good pilot in a 109E will probably die every sortie unless he flys in a big crowd of friendlies. In a 109E, seeing a Spit IX is a lot like being in a Spit IX and seeing an Me262.. except the Spit IX can out turn you too.
The 109F has it even worse. It is marginally faster than the Spit IX and N1K2, both of which out-perform it in every other area. And it can't turn worth a damn compared to the 109E, so even a crappy Spit pilot can kill you if he can get within 2-3k and dive on you (and it wouldn't have to be a very steep dive either).
The G2 is a good plane, it can BnZ Spits and N1K2's, even with Gondolas. So it isn't in the same category performance-wise as the 109E and F. However... the La7 is the 109G2's "spitfire and N1K2".
G6 has it even worse than the G2 against the La-7.
G10 is a good plane, and unsurprisingly it is the most popular 109. It combines the firepower of the G6 with (almost) the manueverability of the G2. It is still dogmeat for an La-7, but it is invincible against N1K2s and Spits.
The 190s have it a little better in my opinion.
The A5 is fast enough to get away from a Spit or N1K- although they can hang within 1,000 yards spraying for an uncomfortably long time. An La-7 will completely and totally own any 190A-5, assuming the La-7 pilot knows his bellybutton from a hole in the ground.
A8 has it worse than the A5- it doesn't accelerate as fast so a Spit IX or N1K will catch it if it tries to run, and it is practically dead if an La-7 gets anywhere within icon range.
D9 is the fastest 190.. and it is also the most popular. Why? Because it can run down planes that leave the A5 and A8 in the dust (in my opinion, thats why I fly it anyway). D9 is good against any plane in the set, with the exception of the La-7.. which will tear it a new amazinhunk under practically any circumstances.
So... the MA basically forces people to stay out of the early 109s unless they actually enjoy dying (and there are some that do). I also believe it forces a LOT of people out of the 190A's, because their speed advantage over the Spit IX and N1K2 is negligible, and the La-7 will kill one with practically no effort.
And I also DO think that people have a tendancy to pick planes from one of two criteria. A: They developed an interest in a particular plane before playing the game, or B: They don't have an interest in any particular plane, and so choose the one that gives them the most perceived advantages with the fewest disadvantages. I can only tell you to look at the usage of the N1K2 and La-7 if you disagree with me (as well as the constant "so whats the best plane?" messages on Ch2 in game). Who had HEARD of the La-7 or N1K2 before they started playing AH (or WB, or the other one I forget the name of)? My guess is not many. So.. why are the N1K2 and La7 so popular? Well, let me take a guess.
N1K2- Perceived strengths
- Turning.
- Climbing (and before they declawed it, prop hanging)
- Acceleration (in a dive and level)
- Firepower (4 non-Hispano 20mm with a LOT of ammo- the ammo makes up for the cannon not being Hizookas)
- It is faster than a Spit IX at low alt (so you can run away from them)
Perceived Weaknesses
- ... :confused:
La-7 - Perceived Strengths
- Speed (and no.. the La-7 isn't SLOW at high alt either)
- Speed
- Speed
- Climb rate (top 5 at least up to 10k)
- Acceleration (I'd guess top 5 here too)
- Still turns better than the D-9, P-51D, Tiffie, and 109G-10 (which are the other non-perk speed demons)
Perceived Weaknesses
- Firepower (which is still better than a Dora or G-10)
Furthermore... I'm no prophet, but I'll make a couple predictions. If the Spit14 were unperked, you'd see N1K2 and Spit IX usage drop to 109E4-like levels practically overnight. Why? Because the percieved advantages of the Spit 14 are greater than those of the Spit 9 and N1K2.
If HTC ever introduces a 4 Hizooka loadout for the Spit IX, you would see N1K2 usage drop to all time lows (approaching zero). Why? Because one of the few perceived advantages the N1K2 has over the Spit IX is that it has 4 cannon (albiet non-Hizookas). Four cannon are MUCH easier to spray and pray with than 2 cannon. Add in the fact that they are Hizookas and, presto!, N1K2 extinction.
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I hate the RED planes, the ones above me are pretty crappy.......but I really hate the ones behind me. The coolest planes are the ones taking off.:)
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I just can't take anyone that uses the word "Hizooka" seriously...
...honestly though, of course some planes make flying other planes more difficult to be successful. So? What makes me ill is the number of posturing wannabes that tell us how good they are, yet complain about not getting a fair shake. In my book, being "good" means you are generally successful regardless of the situation.
I've bantered back and forth more or less uselessly with Mahn-duh-BO-LEE all day, knowing I could never change his mind- basically because he won't decide what his point of view really is. Now we have people saying in effect they are samurais getting killed by peasants, and well, that's just not right.
As usual, Toad has it right. Go to the DA and get your kicks if you want to test your "skillz". Go to the CT if you want historic matchups.
And yes, I would buy a sim where I flew an F6F against only Zeros. Reminds me of an old ParSoft title, "Hellcat Ace". ;)
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the only plane I really hate is the LA-7, because it outperforms the planes I like to fly in practically every area
Hmmmm... is this plane blocked for you on your FE? It's not on mine, I CHOOSE NOT to fly it, but it's there if I were to decide to.
Just because a (insert early war or relative pig in performance type plane here) gives you a hard on does not mean that the rest of the arena has to fly an equal or lesser plane to yours so that your fragile ego does not get bruised when they shoot you down.
Your making a choice to fly an inferior performing plane. Dont piss & moan because someone handed you your bellybutton in a better performing ride.
If the ego can't take it, then stay out of the planes that take substantial skill to kill someone in.
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How about a sim where you only got to fly the Spit I against Me262's? Would you buy that? Actually, that isn't a good example, because the Spit I does do at least one thing better.
How about one where you got to fly a 190A-5 against La-7s (and for variety, Yak-9Us). That would be a fun game, well, for some people I guess.
...honestly though, of course some planes make flying other planes more difficult to be successful. So? What makes me ill is the number of posturing wannabes that tell us how good they are, yet complain about not getting a fair shake. In my book, being "good" means you are generally successful regardless of the situation.
That is an interesting viewpoint, and generally one that I hold as well. However, there are cases where it wouldn't matter HOW 'good' you are, you are going to die anyway. For example.. I could kill Leviathn 100% of the time if he was in a 109E4 and I was in a SpitV (or Spit IX). Why? Because the Spit performs SO much better than the 109 that it really does make up for him having a lot more skill than me. It doesn't matter WHAT he does, I can do it better in a Spitfire.
Now we have people saying in effect they are samurais getting killed by peasants, and well, that's just not right.
I didn't read it that way. I read it like he was drawing a parallel case for what it feels like to fly an inferior plane in the main arena. Rather like Funked up isn't REALLY saying we are all duelists that meet at dawn every day with air pistols and get ventilated by some amazinhunk with a machine-gun - he was drawing a parellel also.
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I should clarify my statement. I care what they fly in that it dictates how and what I fly, if I want to be successful (i.e. get kills and live). I don't make judgements about their character and skills based on their plane choices. But I will taunt them if they fly like wussies. And naturally I will go out of my way to kill planes with black crosses. :)
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
akak, I didnt miss the point.
It is what you fly and what you fight what should matter for you as a customer of a flight sim. Would you buy a combat flight sim where you fly F6F and all the enemies are A6M3? Why do you worry about fighting only A6M3 when you are able to fly your preferred ride (F6F as an example)? Of course, probably you are not going to buy that monotone sim.
Yep, I did and it was called Combat Flight Simulator 2, except you pretty much flew the Wildcat instead of the Hellcat.
Like I've said, it doesn't bother me a lick that someone prefers to fly a plane they enjoy and have fun in. I just can't see past your illogical stance, it just doesn't make any sense. Big deal if you attack a base and 50% of the base defenders up in Spitfires while the other 50% ups in La7's or one of the other so-called "newbie/uber" planes. If you're dumb enough to dive into that mess without backup, then you deserve what you get, it's got nothing to do what the other guy flies.
In the all flying strato G10s and you flying La7 scenary, probably, the G10s would be fighting each other at hi alt and ignoring you all the time. The result: you'll get a bit bored.
I wouldn't be bored. If I notice that they are fighting themselves and not paying me any attention, I'd extend and gain some altitude and proceed to cherry pick them out of the furball. Make them pay for their lack of SA.
How many plane types cover more than 50% of MA plane usage? 2? 3? HTC is working on more and more planes, most if not all of them will be forgotten after first week and the people will return to their hispano/la7/n1k2 routine.
Again, what's the big deal if someone enjoys flying the more popular planes in the game? It doesn't make the plane or the pilot any better.
I'm glad HiTech and gang keep adding new planes to the game, I'm sure you didn't whine like you are now when they added some more of the Luftwhiner planes.
For example, I like to fly the 190 family, but in the case they become overused, I'll ask to perk them all for sure.
And I'm sure we'll roll our eyes and laugh at you again.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Originally posted by Fester
the only plane I really hate is the LA-7, because it outperforms the planes I like to fly in practically every area
Hmmmm... is this plane blocked for you on your FE? It's not on mine, I CHOOSE NOT to fly it, but it's there if I were to decide to.
Just because a (insert early war or relative pig in performance type plane here) gives you a hard on does not mean that the rest of the arena has to fly an equal or lesser plane to yours so that your fragile ego does not get bruised when they shoot you down.
Your making a choice to fly an inferior performing plane. Dont piss & moan because someone handed you your bellybutton in a better performing ride.
If the ego can't take it, then stay out of the planes that take substantial skill to kill someone in.
FesCAF... I hardly have a fragile ego. I enjoy flying 'relatively' inferior planes, so I do. Perhaps I was raised oddly, I don't know. Part of the 'thrill' of a game for me is making it a challenge. And frankly, 95% of the people in the arena aren't GOOD enough, in any plane, to give me a challenge when I'm in one of the 'Uber' rides. So, I make a choice to even the playing field a little bit by flying planes with less performance.
I guess I look at it something like this. Suppose I'm an NBA player out looking for a pickup game. I don't find the nearest 5 year old and bait them into a game (while screaming, 'Who's your daddy, mutha-diddlya?!' as I jump OVER the poor 3'6" kid to dunk). I go find another NBA player and have a nice hard game. If all I can find are 5 year olds, I'll do my best to even up the match (you play on your knees, etc. etc.- of course, perhaps only someone looking for a fair game would do that, not someone trying to stroke their ego by ' r0xx0r1ng' small children).
I also guess that most people would happily jump over a small child to make the point of how 'good' they are at basketball.
The only real problem is that there are sometimes NBA players mixed in with the small children (really small NBA players, like Mugsy Bogues ). When you get on your knees to even up the match and they kick you in your head on their way to the basket, it does tend to get a little upsetting. I think that is what bothers a lot of people that are flying inferior planes, but I could be wrong.
Do I have an ego? Sure, most everyone does, and competition only brings it out in most of us. I'm not posting here to say the La-7 needs to be perked, I'm posting here to try to explain why some people dislike seeing it. In my opinion, the La-7 is a crutch for someone that isn't quite good enough to fly a P-51, TIffie, 109G-10, or 190D-9. Does the La-7 give them a 'hard-on', as you so eloquently put it? No, it does not. If a plane comes along that they think gives them an even larger performance advantage, they'll switch to it. They are in the La-7 because it gives them the edge they need to compete with the guys in the P-51s, Tiffies, G-10s, and D-9s. In my opinion, the pilots on the La-7s have fragile egos, not the ones who fly 'inferior' planes.
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When you get on your knees to even up the match and they kick you in your head on their way to the basket, it does tend to get a little upsetting.
If you know there are wolves in with sheep, dressed as sheep, you better bring the right tool for the job or be prepared to get bit every once in awile.
So you club a few baby seals, big deal. If not losing is that important to you then fly something that protects your self image.
I dont mean to single you out Urchin, and this isnt a personal thing against you, but you are making an informed decision and then whining about the results, it's like learned helplessness.
Answer this, is it nicer to kill one la7 in a 109e? or kill 10 of anything in an LA7?
Neither answer is right, they just speak to different personalities. It sounds like you are struggling with what is more important to you.
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The way I see it, the La7 is dangerous only when it has an average or above average pilot. Its guns are so crappy and its so fast you have a 262-like dilemma... approach too fast, gun range too short.. you dont know what to do you'll just end up playing tourist or a very entertaining target. A clueless pilot in an La7 will only beat you to the ground. In the hands of the average/above average+ pilot the La7 becomes a real annoyance. It will run you down below 15k.. 190 and P51 pilots cant dive away from it, thus the understandable aggravation from the wurgerstang club.
SpitIX and N1k on the other hand are so docile and have such great performance that no effort other than point and shoot is needed. Both are armed with long range, good ammo load cannons.. turn like hell, can zoom and dive with all but the near-perk perfomance planes long enough to hit you with long range cannon spraying. Their only weakness is their very high speed handling (which can be overcome by flying them with trim tabs). They both B&Z and T&B above average and they are armed with above average weapons (average being 4X.50 cal in my opinion). And this added to their docility and its no surprise these planes draw so many pilots to use them. There's no effort to it and all the fun.... much like fighter ace and wing commander imo ;)
And then you meet the horde of blue haired pilots with faded jedi glory in the MA.. and oooh boy, youd BETTER be in somethign that can run.. or in their same rides or your chances arent very good. No other 2 planes in the game can claim the same angst generator those 2 have :D
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
I really don't care who flys what. But here's an idea.
Rather than perking an over used plane type, I think it would be a neat feature to have each plane type associated with a factory. And if a country's "N1K1" factory is destoryed then no one in that country can take off in a "N1K1" for 1 hour. AW had a simular feature to this for spits. (this would not affect planes that are already in the air or are hotpadded)
HiTech made it very clear that this was one of the things he detested in Air Warrior. I think the chances of seeing something like this (MA anyway) are about the same as Elvis playing your birthday party.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
DIVERSITY !!!!
Most in the MA r just like sheeps an go with the flock
That's all
bingo!
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Originally posted by Nifty
Will two perks on the Spit IX accomplish what you want to see in terms of less SPIT tags in the Arena?
Yes, actually it would. The best spit drivers wouldn't have a problem. The point and click geeks however might be forced to fly something else now and then after they've burnt their perkies.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Maybe if mandoble and all the other whiners actually flew the planes that they wish to regulate, they might get a clue on what their true failings are, and learn to take advantage of them.
I do
I prefer, as well as others, to TnB (actually I prefer JABO), while many others prefer to BnZ, but why don't we hear from the TnB crowd to PERK the BnZ planes? Its not fair that they drop out of the sky at +400 mph ... take a shot and extent D 4.0 out to start the process all over again ... waaaaaa !!!!
Fine :D
Just a little note: Can we please dispense with the "whine" and "waaaa"'s. It would be nice to have at least a little bit of a civil, adult conversation on this board... just once.
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Originally posted by Tac
exactly funked.
I can compare the AH situation to what the Japanese Samurai faced when the Europeans brought guns.
On one side there was the Samurai class : Born from a priviledged family/caste (aka good nutrition and education when a child for the most part), trained and drilled to kill since childhood.. end result was a superb soldier, deadly with his hands, feet, bow, spear and blade.
On the other side you had the Ashigaru. Or Peasant soldiers. Born from the lowest class of society, Ignorant in both education and warfare. The Samurai class used them as pawns, mere rabble to butcher and act as meat shields. BUT once guns came in, a wimpy retarded farmer could be plucked from the rice fields, trained in using a gun in less than a week and this peasant would have a damn good chance of killing a Samurai. In fact, they killed so many that the samurai leaders eventually had to resort to using mostly guns in their armies. As SHOGUN:ME put it in their intro movie, a samurai narrating : "(after guns changed warfare).. I now desire victory more than honour.."
And in AH we have a similar issue. One group is skilled and is able to fly a wide variety of AC and generally stick to the few they personally like. Another group is the skilless (newbies or powergamers) that dont have a clue about ACM and get creamed by everyone, including themselves, when they take off.
Then the Sheep come and give them "certain" planes that allows them to come to equal terms with the skilled group just by the perfomance of said planes.No particular effort needed to succeed in them. ACM becomes irrelevant. And of course, the sheep make it widely avaliable and the battlefield becomes clogged with them.
Until it came to such a point where the skilled group HAS to fly said "certain" planes or limit their choice of other planes in order to be able to fight off the hordes of dweebshigaru's. ;)
Wow Tac, nice post.
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Kieran, I'll try to use standar simbology and the simplest english to represent what was, is and will be my point of view, perhaps this way you can understand:
performance -> usage level
overusage -> boredom.
Is Spit overused? Yes. Why? cause it is an excelent performer in most situations (hizookas included). Is boring a MA full of spits? yes. A MA full of spits is affecting your gameplay and fun factor? Yes. Does that means that what others fly may affect negatively your fun factor when what others fly represents 1 out of every 5 plane types (out of 63 types) present in MA? yes.
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Urchin, calling the 109F a challenging plane is a joke, and unless you fall alseep at the joystick an la7 cannot kill a 109e for the very reasons all the bnz'ers in this thread hate spits.
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People seem puzzled by the fact that new and average players seem to prefer to use the "best" planes they can get for MA combat.
HTC has pretty much stated they're just going to keep modeling and modeling and modeling WW2 aircraft.
Secondly, it's obvious that the MA concept which makes every plane available to the players (perk system modifier, of course) in one arena is a cornerstone of their gameplay idea.
So why would anyone be amazed or bothered that if you fly an early war ride or one of the less stellar later models you will run into much better aircraft piloted by folks that will try their level best to "kill" you?
After all, HTC keeps adding planes and some are always better than others.
This IS the MA folks. This IS how it works, how it ALWAYS has worked.
Very capable aircraft are available to all players.. new guys, average guys and "Ghod-like Masters of the Stick & Rudder "(TM).
It's SUPPOSED to be that way. It's DESIGNED that way.
Would the game keep growing if new players were restricted to C-202's for six weeks until they payed their dues, learned to engage as their betters deem correct and learned all the commands? Bet we wouldn't keep too many after the two week free trial.
The truly "good sticks" in the game are rarely found in the latest, greatest, highest performing aircraft. There are lots of guys that deliberately take a knife to a gunfight. Ever wonder why they choose to fly like that? HTC knows why, I guarantee you.
Yeah, I'll say it again. You want a "fair fight"? The dueling arena stands ready to serve you.
The MA was NEVER meant to be a "fair fight" or "chivalry theater". Those of you who find the action in the MA disgusting or troubling apparently don't understand its purpose.
Or, perhaps more importantly, its incredible success.
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On the fragile egos. It's not the la7 drivers I hear crying constantly, nor is it the people that are really flying early war stuff (unlike pretty much any of the examples cited as real planes in this thread). It's the people flying the almost latest and almost best so they have the excuses at the ready.
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Tumor ...
So now you want to regulate what people can and can't write because you believe it will make it more "civil and adult" ... please.
The reference to "waaaa" is really poking fun at what I HEAR in my head every time I read these post about "real men only fly ...".
Actually, we all have digressed from Mathman's original question ... and dragged this thread back down to the never-ending "this plane should be perked" whine.
Math, no I don't care what people fly !!! I really prefer the mission aspect of the game and really like to JABO, so I bring what I need to get the job done. Once all ordinance is delivered, I do the best I can with the CAP, in the ride that I chose, which in most cases is not the best Air-to-Air fighter.
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Seriously, cant understand most of you deffending the idea that what people fly doesnt need to be regulated.
Lets suppose 99% of the people decide to fly exclusively B17s, while the remanent 1% keep flying fighters. Are going the fighters to "whine" about B17 usage? Are you (one of the buff riders) going to tell them "sssadup and let me fly what I want to".
Now ask your self, in that situation, if you were one of the fighter drivers, would you ask for perking the B17? Would you ask the B17 drivers to stop filling the arena with buffs. Would you be happy being killed and killing all the time the same plane?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Tumor ...
So now you want to regulate what people can and can't write because you believe it will make it more "civil and adult" ... please.
Grow up ... please? no more insults? Please? Pretty Please? With sugar on top? Try? Just like the choo-choo who could?
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I'd be having a blast mandy. I'd know I could take a cannon butcher like the a8 and not have to worry about nimble fighters.
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Everyone walks into the MA and gets to make the same choice. Everyone has every weapon spread out before him or her, and gets to decide which is their favorite. Or, transversly, they don't have to choose any, and may sample at will whichever plane strikes his or her fancy.
What we have here is a group of people that have said, "This is it! This is my plane!" whether or not the plane is suited to be competitive in the type of environment in which they would like to fly it. Naturally they get smacked occasionally. Naturally they may see a large number of similar aircraft opposing them. Stating the obvious, this occurs because maybe, just maybe, other people made a similar (albeit with a different plane) choice. The trouble is now we have people that have been allowed to make their choice trying to remove that privilege from others. These people want their planes to do things they are not designed to do, therefore they need the competitors removed.
*If you fly a C202, forget chasing buffs.
*If you fly a 190D9, forget turnfighting.
*If you fly an La5, forget JABO.
*If you fly a C205, forget long-range escort.
So far, the arguments for perking certain planes amount to:
1. They make up too much a percentage of the arena population.
*"The proper percentage" and "variant" issues aside, the stats do not back this up in any way.
2. The aircraft is too easy to kill in compared to other aircraft (mine).
*Once again, the stats do not verify this point, in fact, point out the opposite.
3. "I have earned my right to be good, it's not right some newb can come in and kill me by flying X or Y plane."
*The most inane of all the comments. Of course it is ok. Of course newbs have to be somewhat successful when they enter, else they will never stay for the most part. And really, if a newb in a Spitfire or La7 gets you, whose fault is it?
You decided you would fly only X or Y plane. YOU made the choice to enter an arena where you knew flying that plane was going to be tough. Want to impress people, really? Take whatever plane you want and kill with it, and keep your mouth shut when you die.
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I would guess that after a relatively short period of that kind of activity the masses of buff drivers would suffer defections. People would do something different.
You know how people will go on binges and, for example, eat pizza for several days in a row? Then they go back to a more "normal" style of eating.
In your example people would be on a "buff binge". It probably wouldn't last very long.
If it DID.... and if HTC thought it was adversely affecting their franchise... then HTC would take some action to alter the trend. They'd simply be protecting their business interests.
I know it is certainly not my business to tell other people what to fly or how to enjoy themselves or what to eat for dinner.
I only have one decision to make here. To play or not to play. If I didn't enjoy playing, I wouldn't play.
If I went to a restaurant that served only steak but I was sick and tired and bored with steak I wouldn't demand that they change their menu. I would just go somewhere else to eat.
If you don't like the Spits here, go somewhere that doesn't have Spits. Pretty simple. IL-2 is Spitless, isn't it? There ya go. Paradise. Enjoy.
But somehow I don't think that's what it is about with you.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Want to impress people, really? Take whatever plane you want and kill with it, and keep your mouth shut when you die.
Whoomp. There it is.
Tell it bro!
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Originally posted by Tumor
Yes, actually it would. The best spit drivers wouldn't have a problem. The point and click geeks however might be forced to fly something else now and then after they've burnt their perkies.
yes, they'd be "forced" to fly the Seafire and the Spitfire V. You'd see the exact same about of SPIT tags in the arena, you just wouldn't see the Spitfire IX as much, if at all. Most of the better Spitfire guys prefer the Spit V if I'm not mistaken. That's my point, you guys are sick of SPIT tags in the MA. There are 4 different planes that carry that tag. Half of 'em are Spit IX, but 24% are Spit V and another 24% are Seafires. the little Spit I makes up the rest of them. You perk the Spit IX, and the majority would go to the Seafire and Spit V. A few might migrate to the N1K2 or the La-7 (until they figured out it doesn't turn well) Hell, a few might figure out the Hurri IIc turns like mad and has 4 Hispanos (with little ammo though). However, the Spit V and Seafire would each have their kill numbers go up at least 40%, IMO.
hehe, I love whining when I die! ;) "nice gang bang" or "it takes HOW many to kill me" means "I got in over my head and I'm a handsomehunk!" :D
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Mandoble:
We don't see the need to regulate the planes based on the reasons given for regulating them. :) Things are balanced as they are. Infact I think the balance is much like the rock-scissors-paper balance which is good in my book. One plane is outclassed in a category by a 2nd plane, but a 3rd plane outclasses the 2nd in a key area but is vulnerable to the 1st plane.
E.g. I fly the P-51D the majority of the time. I can usually dictate my fights with Spits and N1K2's but am very careful to respect the La-7. I like having the La-7 though I hate being shot down by it. It keeps me wary and honest.
Kieran has done a nice job summarizing the 3 reasons given so far for changing the balance of gameplay in AH and pointed out the reasons that they aren't supportable.
Point infact is that my hunch the most popular reason though very often veiled stem from reason #3: "I have earned my right to be good, it's not right some newb can come in and kill me by flying X or Y plane."
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Lookin at the current kill death ratio.. The P-51D belongs on the perkworthy list as well.
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The La7 is no uber plane- and don't play them "I fly a 190 and I can't fight it" cards, cuz I know for a fact even a 190A8 can dupe a La7 in a scissors fight.
And this was before the influx of newbies.
The thing that gets me is people are using some really shotty analogies- "what if everyone in the arena flew B17s and you wanted to fly.."
NO single plane reaches 15% of arena usage. All 4 unperked Spits(I,II,V,IX) may get close to that, but it's still nothing to cry about.
And besides, the 190 was horribly outclassed by late war Russian aircraft on the Eastern front- why do you think they had far more 109s deployed there?
All late war rides should be perked, not piecemeal like most people want- because it all comes down to "I got shot down by this plane while I was in this plane"... that's just lame, especially when some of you all fly late war rides and are lobbying for a 1942 Spit to get perked.
Do you have no shame?
-SW
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ROLLING..... PLANE..... SET......
Stridr
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Originally posted by Tumor
Math
I care what other people fly. Not so much who flies it but how many. Simply put, I don't care how many aircraft I shoot down, or how many planes shoot me down, it's WHAT plane (for me) at all times. I've got a pretty good record for knocking Nik's/Spits and La7's out of the air (actually it's about even), it just gets old. Tonight, I was THRILLED as I got into a very fun fight in my Pony-B with a Ta-152, ended up using all my ammo and he was still alive (dang things are tougher than I thought). It was awesome.. No spits, niks or La7's in SIGHT!! In other words... some goob cherry picker didn't notice the two of us duking it out just out of icon range of the furball. I didn't even get the inevitable N1K point and click geek sneak in.. totally awesome, fights like that are hard to find these days. It boils down to whats easy and what takes a little work. I don't care what anyone flies, but don't ask me to laud your skill if you get fixated on me and chase me to Egypt and back in a La7.. and don't whine if I waggle my wings at your Spit, wave goodbye and fly on to a fight that might offer me something more than the old spitty "turn into target" routine followed shortly by the nerd La7 diving in to cherry pick. Well, I've said my thing enough times on this board.... but one last time (not), it would be nice to spend MORE time fighting things other than Nik's Spits and La7's. That will never change though... the path of least resistance is the choice of most of course of course. See.. I can whine with the best.
Tumor ... I think that you need to take a BIG dose of your own "Act like an Adult Medicine" and loose the words such as "goob", "nerd", "geek", and any other adjective that you may choose to describe people who don't want to play the game your way.
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Ya know....it's always been like this.
Toad and Keiren along with a couple of others said it best. If ya can't find some fun in what your doing here in AH, then maybe it's time to look elsewhere for your fun. One thing for certain, is that you will not be able to force the majority of players to play your way...not with this attempt or any other.
Perk the Spit? My gosh, I'm not a historian, but wasn't the Spit one of the most produced fighter planes in WW2? Shouldn't we see more of them than other rides just do to their popularity?
Whatever. All I know is that I sometimes can't believe how goofy some of you act....Toad and I were discussing this and he mentioned checking the monthly cycle of some of this stupidity...might be occurring every 28 days. Perhaps we have more female pilots in the game than we realize?
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Most of this is not a factor in the CT, and one of the reasons why I fly there much more than the MA.
eskimo
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
NO single plane reaches 15% of arena usage. All 4 unperked Spits(I,II,V,IX) may get close to that, but it's still nothing to cry about.
Where is your limit? 25%? 30%? No limit? If you have a "limit" then you are one of the ones that care what the others fly.
That limit is particular for each one, you may think that 99% users flying B17 is abusing while I may think 20% is also abusing.
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Show any stat culled from the game that shows any variant of any plane amounting to 20% of any category. Simple. You keep bandying that percentage around like it is a fact, when it is not.
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ROFLOL Kieran, I was just an example of different perception of that limit. Your "eruption" is frankly funny as your MANDOBLE-obsession :D :D
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No obsession per se, more like a laboratory examination. hehe, your penchant for meaningless analogy continues...
"Eruption" heheheh
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"checking the monthly cycle of some of this stupidity...might be occurring every 28 days. Perhaps we have more female pilots in the game than we realize?"
you may want to edit that comment out rude. Almost sounds lazs-like.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Where is your limit? 25%? 30%? No limit? If you have a "limit" then you are one of the ones that care what the others fly.
That limit is particular for each one, you may think that 99% users flying B17 is abusing while I may think 20% is also abusing.
I went to the Redwood forest once, up in Norther California. Had a nice long chat with a 400 year old tree. Those trees were pretty thick. 6-8 feet at the base. But those trees were nowhere near as thick as Mandy.
The 20% that people throw around is not based on some number they pull out of their... socks. It's based on historic precident. The perking of the chog, occured after the chog had obtained 20% of all air to air kills in a tour. It's a number with assigned value because of it's previous importance. If you cant figure that much out after 3 pages of posts in the other thread, and 2 pages here. There's just no hope for you. But then, many of us already knew that.
You can take you're 99% Buff story and dip in jergan's cause you're just playin with yourself there.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Where is your limit? 25%? 30%? No limit? If you have a "limit" then you are one of the ones that care what the others fly.
That limit is particular for each one, you may think that 99% users flying B17 is abusing while I may think 20% is also abusing.
I have no limit. I was against perking the F4U-1C, so there.
-SW
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and gets to decide which is their favorite. Or, transversly, they don't have to choose any
I have a cousin who is transverse :)
What we have here is a group of people that have said, "This is it! This is my plane!" ...... .....the trouble is now we have people that have been allowed to make their choice trying to remove that privilege from others. These people want their planes to do things they are not designed to do, therefore they need the competitors removed.
Yes, to fail in their plane of choice, having forsaken all others, is not acceptable. Does not fit their self-image.
Very well said Kerien
You decided you would fly only X or Y plane. YOU made the choice to enter an arena where you knew flying that plane was going to be tough. Want to impress people, really? Take whatever plane you want and kill with it, and keep your mouth shut when you die.
Again, very well said. Im actually a little shocked that when this has been so cleary said, so many times that a few still try to, lamely, defend their stance.
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Raymond: "I'm an excellent driver."
Raymond: "I'm an excellent FW driver."
Raymond: "I'm an excellent FW-190 driver."
Raymond: "I'm an excellent driver."
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
A MA full of spits is affecting your gameplay and fun factor? Yes. Does that means that what others fly may affect negatively your fun factor when what others fly represents 1 out of every 5 plane types (out of 63 types) present in MA? yes.
BS. All Spits combine to a 13.5% and no single Spit totals more than 7.6%.
Spitfires are not all the same anymore than 109s or 190s are all the same. There isn't a monolithic block of 20% being done by a unified group of identical aircraft.
Your blatant misrepresentation of the MA stats is very revealing. Portraying one type out of sixty-three (There are really only 61 units, 62 if you count gunners) as getting 20% of th kills in the MA is obvious propaganda.
The reality is that four types labeled "Spit", out of the sixty-one total types (6.56% of the units in AH) get 13.5% of the total kills.
Wow. That sure looks over used to me.:rolleyes:
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Actually AKS, so was I. I remember saying something to the effect, "as soon as you perk the 1C people are going to start right in on the Spit and Nikki, and after that the next perceived best plane..."
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Originally posted by Kieran
Actually AKS, so was I. I remember saying something to the effect, "as soon as you perk the 1C people are going to start right in on the Spit and Nikki, and after that the next perceived best plane..."
Maybe so, but Mandoble replied to me with the question/statement I quoted above.. I replied to him with the above answer.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I have no limit. I was against perking the F4U-1C, so there.
-SW
but can you explain why even at a measly 8 perkies (now 10) why the useage dropped so dramatically? that truly puzzles me, and leads me to believe the rest of the perk planes are way over priced...
i'd say leave 262 as is, but maybe 50 for temp, and between 25-40 for the f4u-4 (30) and spit14 (40) and 10-15 for the Ta152 (kurt tank invented suckiness) - especially with the new buff boxes coming out, giving people a chance to see how well the Ta152 would do.
arado over priced a tad, too... but not by much.
but then again, it doesn't really matter to me, however these planes are often beyond the reach of people who'd like to fly them in MA more than once a month and provide the rest of us with nice perkies for whacking them. :D
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Because 8 measly perkies ain't worth the cost when you can save up 40 or 50 and get the -4 model...
Why it was perked was because it dominated usage by 20% or more.. and the whining... why it's usage dropped off dramatically probably has more to do with people not having enough perk points or simply not wanting to waste them.
-SW
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oh, i know *why* it was perked, just surprised the dedicated facestudmuffins abandoned that ride so quickly when it still costs so cheaply.
i mean, c'mon 8 perkies? even 10...
i do think that perk rides should earn more for their kills because it's hard to justify flying one and earning so low a payback in proportion to the risk. i'd have no problems with the ENY (?) being raised substantially to bring the risk/reward more into line.
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I'm with the MTV generation... my attention span is way too short for this thread....
What the hell are we talking about now?
Is it time to go back to the "LW planes under modeled" debate?
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Karnak, these numbers were just an example. Looking at my stats, 1 out of every 5 or 4 kills in the past tours was an spit.
Is 20% a lot for you? 15% alone is a lot for me, when we have a plane-rich hangar.
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Is it time to go back to the "LW planes under modeled" debate?
I've been wondering that a bit myself, though I don't feel that is what this is about, really. Man has just added a new dimension to the argument- every fifth kill for HIM is a Spitfire, so damnit, something had better happen NOW! It couldn't be that he places himself in the middle of Spits, or where Spits are most likely to be found (of course this has already been pointed out before, numerous times).
Where would I look if I wanted to find Spits.... hmmm.... what does the Spit do best... is it... furball?
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MANDOBLE,
You alone are responsible for your target selection. Just because you favor targeting Spitfires doesn't make them perk worthy.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Karnak, these numbers were just an example. Looking at my stats, 1 out of every 5 or 4 kills in the past tours was an spit.
Is 20% a lot for you? 15% alone is a lot for me, when we have a plane-rich hangar.
This is bound to happen when you spend 50% of your on-line time vulching fields. ;)
AKDejaVu
Sorry... you just set yourself up for that one and I couldn't resist.
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Mandoble:
I don't think that proves anything. So here are my top 5 kills by % for TOD 28.
Bf 109G-10 10.2%
Spitfire Mk IX 9.5%
La-7 9.5%
P-51D 7.3%
N1K2 5.8%
There are too many G-10's! Please put a limit on G-10's. :D. I think not.
Furthermore: TOD 28 Stats for All Kills - the top 10 a/c killed:
Spitfire Mk IX 7.3%
P-51D 6.1%
N1K2 5.5%
F6F-5 4.6%
La-7 4.5%
P-38L 4.2%
PT Boat 4.2%
F4U-1D 4.0%
Spitfire V 3.5%
Just trying to point out what Kieran, Karnak, and AKDJV are pointing about about target selection. Quit being so hard-headed and come to the light ;). I think the data doesn't support your claim.
Try some other missions like long range hi altitude fighter sweeps or deep penetration bomber escorts.
Can't believe I'm spending effort typing all this! Someone stop the music! ;)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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AKDejaVu, did u forgot? We are rooks, vulched 75% of the time just by spits.
In any case, your conclissions are as "clever" as usual, if you kill mostly spits is cause you are a vulcher, not cause they are overused. ROFLOL, you are the ONLY one able to surpass your own cleverness level ... Sorry couldnt resits.
dtango, I didnt count my tour 28 stats cause I was mostly grounded and 180 kills is too few to take conclussions, but with near 700 kills in tour 27 the conclussions were more than obvious.
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It was a joke mandoble... I even went out of my way to get that across. Not trying to be clever... just thought it was funny.
Go back to your regularly scheduled whining.
AKDejaVu
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MANDOBLE,
The only conclussion that is obvious is that you target Spits in preference over other aircraft. This is obvious because Spits make up a higher percentage of your kills than they make up of the MA population.
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Ok, ok, I'm obsesed, every time I see a spit I MUST to kill it and cause that they are the most significative part of my victims...
Well, it is 99% true, as with any other plane ;)
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Originally posted by Fatty
Urchin, calling the 109F a challenging plane is a joke, and unless you fall alseep at the joystick an la7 cannot kill a 109e for the very reasons all the bnz'ers in this thread hate spits.
I don't think it is a joke.. I honestly do think the 109F4 is more challenging overall than a 109G2 or G10, or any of the 190s. I also think it is more challenging than a La-7 or a Spit IX or a N1K2. You don't? I guess I can explain why I feel it is more challenging than all of the above, and you can tell me why you think it isn't.
109F4 against 109G2 or G10-
Overall, I feel the 109F4 is much more challenging than the G2 or G10, for the following reasons.
- It is significantly slower than both
- It doesn't climb as well
- It turns better, BUT it still can't turn with a Spit IX or N1K2 (effectively nullifying the turning in my opinion)
- The G10 has far greater firepower (again, in my opinion).
109F4 against Spit or N1K2
Overall, I still feel the 109F4 is more challenging than a Spit (V or IX anyway) and N1K2, for the following reasons
- It is NOT significantly faster than either. This means that you'll have all the trouble the Spits and N1K2s have with BnZ'ers, and you'll have trouble killing a Spit or N1K2 to boot.
- It does not climb significantly better than the Spit IX or N1K2 (it outclimbs the V though).
- It turns worse than both.
- High speed handling (350+) is far worse in the 109.
- It has much less firepower.
Against the La7
Actually, the 109F is a great choice for killing stupid La-7 pilots. It will turn FAR better than what they expect, the only problem is finishing them off with the single 20mm. Still, I feel the 109F is a more challenging aircraft than the La7 for the following reasons
- It is FAR slower
- It doesn't climb as well
- It doesn't accelerate as well
- High speed handling is significantly worse.
- It has much less firepower.
That is why I feel the 109F4 is one of the more challenging planes in the game. Are there MORE challenging planes? Of course! The C202, the Spit I (or Hurri I), the 110C4, I'm sure I am forgetting some others. I guess I think that the 109E4 and F4 are 'challenging' because you give up the 'traditional' strengths of the 109 (which are speed and climb in my opinion) in exchange for more turning ability- but that turning ability still doesn't bring you on par with the Spit IX's or N1K2's.
The La7 is no uber plane- and don't play them "I fly a 190 and I can't fight it" cards, cuz I know for a fact even a 190A8 can dupe a La7 in a scissors fight.
Swulfe, perhaps this will come out sounding more egotistical than I intended, but I feel you are dead wrong on this one. Can a well-flown 190A8 kill a poorly flown La-7? Of course. Can a well-flown A8 kill a well-flown La-7? Not in my opinion, and I'd be happy to back up my words. The La-7 literally does EVERYTHING better than any 190 (except roll, and that is a somewhat limited advantage in my opinion, because the roll rates are still fairly close)- and the 190A8 does everything worse than the other 190s. In my opinion, the 190A5 has the best odds of taking out an unwary La-7, but I wouldn't even put it at 25/75% for the 190A5. Again, that is just my opinion though.
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I think it is not because it is the easiest plane to get up from a vultched field, and will proceed to slaughter attackers. Even with gondolas you can be flying inverted before you get to the first rearm pad.
Top speed it lacks, acceleration it does not. I believe that's the reason you all fear the spits as well?
The 109f in a tight climbing turn will have a spitIX or niki wallowing pretty quickly, to either break off and try to run or stall out. SpitV and zeke don't have the speed to matter (I realize some are having trouble with the spitV from a dora, in which case there really isn't anything that can help you. I suggest giving up).
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It lacks acceleration compared to the 109G2, 109G10, Spit V and IX, N1K2 and La-7. Does it still outaccelerate a P-51 or P-47? Of course.
That is what I meant when I said it lacked acceleration, not that it was a brick.
You apparently have different criteria for judging a 'challenging plane' than I do :). That is cool though, that is what opinions are all about. But wouldn't a N1K2 or Spitfire still be a better choice for upping from a vulched field? The only thing you get by flying the 109F4 is the 'shock value' of being in a (comparitively) well-turning 109. The performance edges the Spits and N1K2s have would more than make up for that in my opinion.
Oh, I forgot this. I fail to see how a climbing turn would shake off a N1K2 or Spit IX? Both planes turn better than the 109F (thus burning less E in the 'turn' portion, and saving it for the 'climb' portion) and they climb just as good. How would this work? Can the 109F4 climb at a steeper angle?
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The spit and nik can't be up and killing as fast as the 109f. Nor can they get into the fight as fast vertically. That's why I fly it, it's the easiest plane for the situation.
Mind you I think no less of you for flying an easy plane like the 109f, I find myself falling back to it like a crutch from time to time too.
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Oh no, I use the 'traditional' crutches when I'm in need. I fly the Dora and LA7 :). I fly the earlier models when I'm looking for a 'fair' fight, the later models when I'm just looking to kill as many as possible.
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I have no clue what the true data tables are for the 109f vs spiIX or n1k2, but from Aces High experience I'll turn with either in a heartbeat (keeping some vertical to it), and neither can hold a climbing turn with the 109f.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Seriously, cant understand most of you deffending the idea that what people fly doesnt need to be regulated.
Just because you find it boring, doesn't mean we all do. I don't care if there's 2 Spitfires or 20 flying around in one area. If that's what others want to fly, so be it. The only plane that really needs to be perked is the Me262 because that plane would seriously effect the game balance in large numbers.
Does the numbers of Spitfires, Nikis or La7s effect the game balance in the MA now? No they don't and you've yet to show one shred of proof that they do. Your "scenerios" don't count because they are just your "fantasy" and aren't based or grounded in reality or facts.
Ack-Ack
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MANDOBLE,
I'm not saying you only kill Spits. Obviously you kill many other things as 80% of your kills are not Spits.
But you do seem to have a slight favoritism for killing Spits.
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Originally posted by Fatty
I have no clue what the true data tables are for the 109f vs spiIX or n1k2, but from Aces High experience I'll turn with either in a heartbeat (keeping some vertical to it), and neither can hold a climbing turn with the 109f.
Well, you are the expert in your situation. I typically avoid upping from vulched fields like the plague :). I do think it is interesting that you seem to have more success turning in a Spit/N1K2 with the 109F4 than I do. I guess I'm just out of practice :). Aces High really isn't a game of 'true data tables' (although it has to be based on one).. I think it is more a game of 'feel' (as poor a choice of words as that may be). At least that is how I think of it, your mileage may vary :).
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Originally posted by Urchin
The La-7 literally does EVERYTHING better than any 190.
How about GUNS and AMMO?
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Dtango, add your %. by plane name as seen in the arena.
Add all spits, add all 109s and all 190's.
Then you see a different picture.
Then again, if each spit had its submodel in the icon, the spitIX would be actively avoided and its # of kills it gets may be considerably lower. Same with 109G10 and 190D9's, etc etc.
Just look at the La5 and La7.. or the 202 and 205... just what do YOU do when you fight these planes? I see 202 and I dont worry about it giving me a snapshot, so I go for aggressive knife fights.. but theres no chance in hell i'd do that vs a 205. La5, Ill try and E-fight it because I know I got a good chance to beat it doing that.. but vs an la7 thats SUICIDE.
Now imagine seeing a "spitV" icon... it would instantly put all spitv's at a disadvantage, as any decent pilot would E-fight it from the start. But if it said SpitIX.. oooh things would be mighty different.
109F4 vs G10... no fricken way to know which is which unless it passes you really damn close or you chase it for a little while. And yet if each had its icon you can bet your bellybutton the G10 wouldnt be able to rope other planes into its climb-till-he-drops manouver.. which is usually the first and only time the other player realizes he faces a G10.. and probably gets shot down because of it. So the way I see it, if 109G10 had its icon, its kill #'s would drop dramatically.
I'm not asking for separate icons, but you do have to take into account this little quirk which really does give the Spits and LW planes an important advantage when you face them.
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Originally posted by Tac
Add all spits, add all 109s and all 190's.
Then you see a different picture.
All Spits (Spit I, V, Seafire, IX and XIV): 19.35% of all fighter kills.
190s and 109s: 14.1% of all fighter kills
So, 19 of every 100 fighter kills for the Spits... 14 of every 100 for the 190/109s. Yeppers... big difference.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
How about GUNS and AMMO?
You got me there, the La-7 does have less firepower than the 190A-8. Still has more than the A5 or D9 though.
However, the La-7 has a much easier time bringing its guns to bear, especially when compared to a 190A-8.
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Deja are you ever going to stop ruining unsupported biases with plain facts? ;)
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screw it, never mind... a simple discussion free of insults and (amazinhunks) is impossible on this BB. How about we just cancel christmas and find something to argue about thats worth the time. Santa lives!
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I've yet to understand how you can figure the repartition of spit online with only a kill % ...
I agree that in one month all spit have 13.5% of all kills but we can't with this number have any information of the distributon of spit population.
ei you can have 40% spit in MA between 20:00 and 22:00 CET then 10% between 22:00 and 00:00 CET ... (but overall those spit can have 13.5 % kills ...)
who nows ?
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Deja... I got 19.89% for the spits and 12.89% for the 109s and 190s... how could we get different results for something as simple as addition?
Spit IX = 10.91
Spit V = 4.87
Seafire = 3.57
Spit I = .29
Spit XIV= .25
Total = 19.89%
109G-10 = 3.37
190D-9 = 3.07
190A-8 = 1.87
190A-5 = 1.80
109G-6 = 1.03
109F-4 = .68
109G-2 = .64
190F-8 = .15
Ta-152 = .15
109E-4 = .13
Total = 12.89%
12.89/19.89 = .648, or roughly 64.8% ( i think). Or, 19.89/12.89= 1.543, or roughly 154.3%. So the Spits are roughly 1.5 times more common than a 190 or 109, or the 109s and 190s are almost 2/3s as common... depending on your way of saying it :).
I think I got all that right. Either way... it isn't exactly a SMALL difference, so acting like Tac is a moron for saying what he said doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
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Oh, Tumor.. don't take it so seriously :). A lot of these guys will poke fun or make personal attacks because... well... that is what they are good at. Take it all with a grain of salt, that is my advice.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Oh, Tumor.. don't take it so seriously :). A lot of these guys will poke fun or make personal attacks because... well... that is what they are good at. Take it all with a grain of salt, that is my advice.
No offense Urchin, but I'm just sick of the amazinhunk mentality around here. I've made an attempt to make an adult conversation and pretty much all I get is creeps who find it real easy to insult other's on an internet message board. Funny how these people come out of the woodwork when it's not face to face.
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Tumor,
Let me put a different view on it for you.
I could do what you guys are doing, except in reverse. I could base my arguments on what affects me personally and how it affects me.
Let me put it this way, I like flying Mossies. If the N1K2 and Spitfire get perked it will be a LOT harder for me to fly Mossies with any success. I can outrun N1K2s and Spits, but if people are all moved into P-51Ds, La-7s, P-38s and Typhoons then my job gets alot harder. Some of those aircraft out perform my Mossie in every way (La-7) and some in almost all ways (Typhoon rolls worse and P-51 turns very slighty worse). An MA full of nothing but top end, screamingly fast BnZ planes would be a massive detriment to my enjoyment. It is hard to use the Mossie as it is, I don't want it to be too much more suicidal.
So, while you may be able to more easily run amok with your Fw190D-9 or Bf109G-10, players who like things such as the Bf110G-2 and Mosquito Mk VI will be impacted in a very negative way. We like having things we can run from being common in the MA. It gives us a shot at survival.
But I think that is all secondary to the bigger issue of Spits and N1K2s being neither powerful enough nor common enough to justify being perked. I also don't buy that whole "UFO" pile 'o crap either. I've spent enough time in AH Spitfires to know that they bleed energy just fine, the black out at the same G levels and they don't pull 15Gs, hell, I'll bet they don't pull 9Gs.
You and MANDOBLE go a spray disdain and spite at anybody who likes Spitfires and then get holier than thou when we get rude back? If your going to lower yourself into the sewer, you're going to get toejam on you. Deal with it.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
All Spits (Spit I, V, Seafire, IX and XIV): 19.35% of all fighter kills.
Curiously it is extremelly close to my 20%-25% of total kills being spits.
Deja, you are comparing Spit usage vs TOTAL LW usage (except 110), then add Typh and hurris to your statistics and compare RAF vs LW, but that is out of scope in this thread. It is like saying that all USAAF+NAVY usage may surpass the spit usage.
The way you do statistics is too biased, isnt it?
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No offense Urchin, but I'm just sick of the amazinhunk mentality around here. I've made an attempt to make an adult conversation and pretty much all I get is creeps who find it real easy to insult other's on an internet message board. Funny how these people come out of the woodwork when it's not face to face.
First you take issue (whine) about the use of certain airplains and then you take issue (whine) when we dont agree with you... Im beginning to see a pattern here. (this is not just you Tumor, not trying to single you out,m but you snapped first)
Ive yet to see your's and Mandobels or Urchins arguments refuted with anything other than hard data and a perspective that attempts to take in the big picture. Any perceived rudness can most likely be summed up through people's impatience with having to explain the obvious over and over again.
Your perspective on this (while most certaintly right to you) is selfish and narrow sighted and not wholly based in fact.
Fly whatever plane you want. You simply need to understand that not everone subscribes to your personal definition of fun and play balance (this is part of growing up) and there are a lot of newer folks with a similar ego to yours (we are all very much alike) who would like to be somewhat competitive. You were once a dweeb yourself, you weren't born an elitist snob, that takes a long time to develop, allow others the same opportunity you had. Years from now we will all be shooting eachother down in P-47's and FW190A-8's what will we squeak about then?
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MANDOBLE,
The percentage of fighter kills is a useless stat.
Bombers, GVs and boats all take their toll and add their numbers. They all add to the diversity in the MA.
When the Spits are considered in the total, the only real stat representative of diversity, they are 13.5% of the total.
Subtract your kills of bombers, GVs and boats. What total percentage of your kills do Spits make up at that point?
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Originally posted by Fester
[BYears from now we will all be shooting eachother down in P-47's and FW190A-8's what will we squeak about then? [/B]
The same as with spit usage now.
And what is obvious for you is not for me. You are a single vote, I'm another. But the single fact that perk system exists and that F4U1C was perked based on usage means that this game has defensive mechanisms against overusage, being that limit at 30%, 20%, 10% or whatever. All of you thinking we are wrong trying to limit some plane usage based on its actual oversuage limit, remember that this was done in the past and was well accepted by most of the comunity, this is not a fantasy nor an absurd.
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MANDOBLE,
You guys are trying to get every bloody Spit perked!!! Frickin' 1942 and older aircraft!!!!!
Be bloody well satisfied that the Spit XIV, an older aircraft than your precious Dora, is perked at three times the cost of the much newer Ta152H-1.
What kind of damn advantage do you need?
How the hell do you think eliminating Spits will increase the diversity of your fights?
You'll just be here whining about all the P-51s, La-7s, F6F-5s, or N1K2s.
Once you get that too comman aircraft perked it'll be on to the next aircraft that gains favor by virtue of not being perked and becomes so common that you're bored with fighting it.
Where does it end? Everybody in C.202s?
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Tumor.. the best way to think of this board is to remember back to your high school/ junior high days. Basically, you have some people that live to put other people down (they would be equivlent to the 'cool kids' in high school). You have some people that like LW planes (they are the equivlent of the most 'unpopular' kids in high school). Then you have the in-between people. As was the case in high school, different people are judged by different standards. Your main problem here is that Mandoble and myself, both fairly well-known LW flyers, jumped in on your side. By default, that makes whatever your position was on any subject the 'wrong' (think 'uncool') one. However, in spite of the fact that we jumped on your bandwagon (and I wasn't actually supporting YOUR case, I was disagreeing with THEIR case... two different things in my mind, but one and the same to the 'cool kids'), you refused to jump off. This opened the way for personal attacks on your character, etc.
Merely by posting my opinion, I became an egotistical elitist who would like nothing more than to perk everything until the only planes flying were made by Ol' Adolf. This would apparently satisfy the closet Nazi that anyone that flies LW planes has inside (even if they haven't realized it yet). Is that actually my opinion? Well, no... but does it matter? Well, ... no.
I think part of human nature is to put down other people to make oneself feel better/ more important/ what have you. The Internet is the easiest place to do it. There are no consequences or repercussions for your actions, as long as you don't piss off HTC. It is a lot like high school/ junior high that way (substitute teachers/principals for HTC). The best way to handle it is to just imagine you saved some poor little wife from a beating because her husband relieved his stress on the BBS. Another good way to think about it is to realize that there are people who can fight (in AH) a lot better than they can talk (on the BBS). And of course, there are those who talk a much better game than they can actually play. But like I said before, I wouldn't let them get to you too much.
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Urchin,
I, for one, didn't see it that way. I don't care what they want to fly, they could be Hurri, Tiffie or Mossie fans for all I care, I'd still argue against their position.
Your statements did nothing to alter my opinion of Tumor or MANDOBLE. Those have been fixed, not irreperably mind you, for some time. I hold a vastly higher opinion of you than I do of them.
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Originally posted by Fester
No offense Urchin, but I'm just sick of the amazinhunk mentality around here. I've made an attempt to make an adult conversation and pretty much all I get is creeps who find it real easy to insult other's on an internet message board. Funny how these people come out of the woodwork when it's not face to face.
First you take issue (whine) about the use of certain airplains and then you take issue (whine) when we dont agree with you... Im beginning to see a pattern here. (this is not just you Tumor, not trying to single you out,m but you snapped first)
Well... even though this isn't really my fight, I'll fight it anyway. The original question (by Mathman) was "Do you really worry about what other people fly? And if so, why?'. " (paraphrased, of course). He posted his opinion... and then several people proceeded to 'take issue' (or I guess WHINE) about his opinion. Oh.. wait... it is only 'whining' if you aren't one of the 'cool kids'.. I forgot. Otherwise it is 'calculated analysis' or some other roadkill.
Ive yet to see your's and Mandobels or Urchins arguments refuted with anything other than hard data and a perspective that attempts to take in the big picture. Any perceived rudness can most likely be summed up through people's impatience with having to explain the obvious over and over again.
Tumor didn't HAVE an argument... he made a statement. He wasn't opening up a debate on his opinion- he was answering a question asked by Mathman. I didn't have an argument either. The only person who was arguing ANYTHING was Mandoble- yet you assume (collectively) since that we DON'T agree with whatever stupid roadkill YOU (collectively) are posting... we MUST agree with whatever Mandoble says. And in fact... even Mandoble's argument was a natural extension of what someone else posted- which was "Well, definately nothing should be perked, except the Me262". Especially not the Spits, because they don't perform well enough to "force anyone out of any plane". Well, if the Spits and N1K2s don't discourage people from flying C202s, or 109E's and F's.. then why would an unperked 262 'force' anyone out of the Spitfire? From their... your (collective) argument changed from performance to 'entry service date'. It isn't just Mandoble that is having trouble maintaining his argument.
Your perspective on this (while most certaintly right to you) is selfish and narrow sighted and not wholly based in fact.
And yours is different how? You are 'right' and he is 'wrong' based on exactly WHAT criteria? Oh... nevermind. More 'cool kids' agree with you, so you are right by default.
Fly whatever plane you want. You simply need to understand that not everone subscribes to your personal definition of fun and play balance (this is part of growing up) and there are a lot of newer folks with a similar ego to yours (we are all very much alike) who would like to be somewhat competitive. You were once a dweeb yourself, you weren't born an elitist snob, that takes a long time to develop, allow others the same opportunity you had. Years from now we will all be shooting eachother down in P-47's and FW190A-8's what will we squeak about then?
Lol.. this is especially rich. I suggest you take your own advice. I guess I'll have to do this one line by line.
"You simply need to understand that not everone subscribes to your personal definition of fun and play balance (this is part of growing up)"
Again.. this is just a different variation of " I'm right and you are wrong"... but I guess YOUR personal definition of 'fun and play balance' is the RIGHT one? Again... how do you know yours is right and his is 'wrong'?
"and there are a lot of newer folks with a similar ego to yours (we are all very much alike) who would like to be somewhat competitive. "
This, to me, is the most interesting part of your argument. Because YOU (individually this time) are telling ME two things that appear to be opposites. 1. There are a lot of newbies that want to be competitive, so they are in (I presume) La7s, N1K2s, and Spits (and you say WE are elitist.... guess we aren't alone, huh?), because those planes perform well compared to others. 2. There are some planes that are just to overwhelming in relation to the other planes, so they have to be kept rare.
I guess I'm not smart enough, because this seems contradictory. This also ties in with you telling egotistical old me to 'stay out of the hard planes if I wasn't good enough to fly them'. This logic just doesn't go in a nice straight line for me. People who take off in C202s or 109E4s deserve to die because they take off knowing that their plane can't perform as well as the most common planes in the game (that saying, to me, that it is perfectly alright to have some planes out-perform other planes in every area, as long as they aren't German planes at least... those evil Nazi bastards...)- BUT... the Me262 must be perked because its performance is so overwhelming to the most common planes in the game.
Now... I don't know about you. But I'll try to make my logic nice and simple to follow. Here goes. Lets assume I'm in a 109E. I see a Spit IX. The Spit IX is better at everything than my 109E (it is faster, rolls better, climbs better ,accelerates better,turns better, dives better, has better firepower). What would the NORMAL outcome of the fight be? The Spit IX winning (I hope everyone can see this.. I get 'tired of repeating the obvious over and over again')
Now, lets assume I am in a Spit IX and I see an Me262. The Me262 is WAAAAAY faster, it climbs better, dives better, has better firepower, but it turns much worse. In fact, it turns so poorly that you would practically have to be AFK for a Me262 to kill you. Who will win this fight? Probably nobody. The Spit can't catch the 262 to kill it, and the 262 can't draw a bead on the Spit.
So... between my two scenarios, which plane is in the better position against a superior enemy? Obviously, the Spit IX.
So, I guess it isn't about performance advantages after all. Well, maybe it is about when the aircraft entered service! The 109E4 came in around mid-late 1940... and the Spit IX came in around mid-late 1942. Well, there you have it! The two year difference in introduction is why the 109E should suck and the Spit IX should be great. Anyone can see THAT! But.. what about the Me262 you ask? Well, that was introduced in mid-late 1944. Oh.. there is a two year difference between those two planes as well. Good point, I hadn't noticed that.
What I'm trying to say here is that when you (collectively) start saying "well, the Me262 is perked because it would make it real hard for people to fly what they want to fly".. you have to admit that there are already planes that make it hard for people to fly what they want to fly. I suppose I could get personal and start saying dumb toejam about the planes you like being obsolete and you being an idiot to want to fly them... but I won't. I'll leave that to you guys, you are the experts at it, not me. And you can't toss out "But, but, but... we'll admit the Spit IX makes it real hard for people to fly SOME planes... but they are 1940 planes and our spit is only from 1942!!!". Big diddlying deal. My Me262 is "only" from 1944, I want to fly that all the time. But... I guess then YOU'D be in the same boat I'm in now... and we wouldn't want that to happen, now would we?
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Response to the original question, because crybabies must cry...thats what crybabies do.
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Urchin,
You are right that some aircraft are just not viable, and are made so by other aircraft, in the MA. It all depends on where HTC wants to put the marker. If the marker was in 1940 or 41 then the Spitfire Mk IX would need to be perked. HTC seems to have placed it in mid-late-1944 (Spitfire Mk XIV and Me262 aside).
You are also correct that the Spitfire Mk IX is worse for the Bf109E-4 than the Me262 is for the Spitfire Mk IX. That, however, is simply where the performance characteristics of the aircraft being discussed fell and nothing can be done about it without intentionally mismodeling them.
(My roommate holds that with a little practice one could easily get to the point where you'd always hit with the Me262, even a break turning A6M or Spitfire. I've gone over it with him repeatedly, but he simply takes my insistance that he is underestimating the effectiveness of the Spitfire's breakturn by saying that as a Spitfire fan I overestimate its capabilities.)
I don't think that perking the 1942 Spitfire Mk IX would help the MA in any way. It would change the aircraft people choose to fly, but not to the more interesting mid and early war aircraft. The Spitfire Mk IX fliers would simply move on to the Spitfire Mk V (Spit fans) and the other aircraft perceived as "best" (power fans). Then the cycle would start all over again.
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And let me clarify what really IS my position. Do I think the N1K2's or Spit's or even the LA7 need to be perked? No. I feel that the La7 DOES give a performance advantage, but I don't think it needs to be perked. I don't even think the Spits (any of them, except the Spit XIV) give a significant performance advantage over any plane except the early war planes - any of the 1943-1945 planes are fast enough that they honestly render the Spit or N1K2 ineffective. Furthermore, I don't even think the Spit XIV gives a large enough performance advantage over the un-perked planes to be worth 60 points (especially with the 'gang-bang me' icon). And actually.. I think the Spitfire IX we have NOW isn't good enough, nor is it really a representative of the 'real' Spit IX. I'd like HTC to put in the Spit IX LF- since they made up the VAST majority of Spit IX production, and they'd fit in better with the low altitude fighting that is most common in Aces High.
Do I agree with Mandoble that there are Spits all over the place? No, not really. Do I think he should be ridiculed for posting his OPINIONS? No.. not really. Do I think he should be told he has an invalid argument by people who ALSO have an invalid argument, logically? No.. not really.
That is my position.
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Urchin,
I do recall conversations and I at least knew that you were not advocating the perking of these things.
My objection to MANDOBLE goes back a long ways as he has been on this crusade for quite some time. Tumor is a recent addition.
I can certainly empathize with them about being constantly riddiculed because of the aircraft they choose to fly though.
How many times do we really need to hear terms like:
"Luftwhiner"
"Spitdweeb"
"Luftwaffle"
"Shitfire"
"Barbiefire"
Ect, ect?
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HOly toejam Urchin, did you take a breath when you typed that?
Im completely confused by your rant. I got somewhere in there that I was "Cool" now. My mother will be happy, she always thought I was a dork. Thank you for the compliment. The rest was kind of rambling and Im too tired to decipher it.
For lack of anything better to say, why dont I buy you, Tumor and Mandnoble a beer sometime and we call it square?
And for what it's worth I fly a P-38... badly ;)
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Originally posted by Karnak
What kind of damn advantage do you need?
At least in my case, I'm not looking for any kind of advantage, just trying to have a more diversified MA, no matter if the overused is the Spit or the 190.
You may accept it or not, but out of about 50 fighters, only 4 or 5 types cover more than 50% usage. IMO this is not good for MA. Some people ask for a RPS, some other to extend the perk system to overused planes (me), some others to let these overused planes free only the first week of the month, some others to let them free only the first weeks after a new player has joined AH, some others to build up specific factories per plane type so we can bomb them and negate the usage of that plane.
The next is my opinnion and my experience:
Along my entire online play, I've never had an interesting combat against any type of spit, all are the same thing for me whatever I fly: 190A, 190D, 109, 110, P51, P47 ... Rarely, I've had good fights against N1K2s, but NEVER against spits. They are mostly boring, no matter whether they are easy to kill or not, just the same turn-till-puke/zoom-til-moon/spray-til-boom story over'n over. At the same time they are overused and that implies, for me, a boring MA most of the times.
Karnak, you and others failed to understand my POV over'n over along the time. This is not a matter of perking the S P I T, this is a matter of perking any plane that becomes too common. It has been said before in a lot of threads to add some perks to the N planes in top of usage list (above a minimum %) and recalculate these perks periodically (once every three days?). Today Spit may be perked and spit pilots move to (for example) C205 (25%), N1K2 (25%) and 190A5(50%). Three days later spit becomes unperked again and of the other three planes 190A5 becomes perked, the 25% that switched to 205 are more than happy with that plane (unknown by them till that moment) and keep with it, some n1k2 and 190A5 pilots return to use the spit some others switch to another ride and so on.
IMO, this is better than just having a bunch of planes perpetually perked.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
...... Along my entire online play, I've never had an interesting combat against any type of spit, all are the same thing for me whatever I fly: 190A, 190D, 109, 110, P51, P47 ... Rarely, I've had good fights against N1K2s, but NEVER against spits. They are mostly boring, no matter whether they are easy to kill or not, just the same turn-till-puke/zoom-til-moon/spray-til-boom story over'n over. At the same time they are overused and that implies, for me, a boring MA most of the times......
What should you consider as "interesting combat against spit"? How more "interesting" can Spit fight with your boom´n´zoom style?
czpetr
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Do you know my style?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Deja... I got 19.89% for the spits and 12.89% for the 109s and 190s... how could we get different results for something as simple as addition?
Spit IX = 10.91
Spit V = 4.87
Seafire = 3.57
Spit I = .29
Spit XIV= .25
Total = 19.89%
109G-10 = 3.37
190D-9 = 3.07
190A-8 = 1.87
190A-5 = 1.80
109G-6 = 1.03
109F-4 = .68
109G-2 = .64
190F-8 = .15
Ta-152 = .15
109E-4 = .13
Total = 12.89%
12.89/19.89 = .648, or roughly 64.8% ( i think). Or, 19.89/12.89= 1.543, or roughly 154.3%. So the Spits are roughly 1.5 times more common than a 190 or 109, or the 109s and 190s are almost 2/3s as common... depending on your way of saying it :).
I think I got all that right. Either way... it isn't exactly a SMALL difference, so acting like Tac is a moron for saying what he said doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
My mistake.. I added the 110G-2 in there with 2.01%
Doesn't really matter though. 19 kills vs 13 kills still...
Its not a drastically different picture. Then again... for every 100 planes someone sees, 81 will not be a spit... and 87 will not be LW.
Its amazing how someone can turn 20% into "all I ever see..." and 13% into "I never see..."
AKDejaVu
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This discution is going nowhere it just look like the unbalanced arena threads...
If you are fighting the bishcuit when most of the 2 TAF member are online it is likely that you will encounter lot of RAF iron ...
But if you fight the Knit at the same hour you will face a lot of LW plane...
So if you are tired of fighting allway the same kind of oponent either change front line/country/time...
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I wonder how many would do like myself and cancel their account if their favorite plane gets perked? The only planes that need perked are the jets. I was here when the chog was perked and thought that was stupid and still do. Just fly what you want is my theory it's your $15.
DES
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Do you know my style?
Every time I had a chance to see your fighting, it was always the same: dive from altitude, kill everything what is not fast or careful enough to turn away from your gunsight, then reverse in safe altitude and look for other victims. If it`s not boom´n´zoom, than sorry. If it`s not your usual style, then sorry.
czpetr
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Man, it is easy to misunderstand your point of view because you say so many things at once.
You say there are too many Spits (arguable as it is an opinion, not supported by stats).
You insinuate they have something wrong with their flight model that gives them an advantage (again, there doesn't appear to be any data to confirm this, nor do these planes seem difficult to deal with in the arena).
You complain about the "spray-n-pray" people that fly them (sure there are, but aren't there just as many American and LW iron pilots who do the same, except with a lot more ammo?).
The only thing that is clear about your point of view is you want planes removed, and you don't seem to care how you get it done. You have been most vocal about Spitfires, but you have hinted at your perception of perkability for other planes such as (surprise) the Nikki, La7, F6F and YAK (why in the heck would the F6F and Yak be perk worthy?!).
Now if I look at all the planes you seem to want removed, what do I see? Why, every one of those planes will give an Fw pilot fits in a low furball. Every one of those planes approaches parity with the Fw in some way or another. That to me suggests an agenda.
Why not ask to perk the P-51D or Fw190D9? There are a lot more of them in the arena than Yaks or F6Fs. Why not perk F4U-1Ds or Typhoons, same thing? Why not perk 109s, of which there are definitely more than Yaks or F6Fs? See? You complain you want to see more variety, but your targets for perking are not based on that goal. It's more correct to say there are certain planes in the environment you don't want to see.
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None of you have addressed the real problem with the La7, N1K1, and Spit dweebs.
They all wear flourescent pink beanie caps - the ones with the propellar's on top.
This behavior is extremely distracting me as I'm LMFAO during the engagement, often times resulting in pepsi squirting from my nose all over the monitor making it impossible to see.
This "beanie" cheat creates an undue advantage.
I propose that "Beanie" caps be banned, or else be perked severely.
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MANDOBLE,
Pick some numbers and stick with them, and support your numbers. Right now your bouncing all over the place.
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
You may accept it or not, but out of about 50 fighters, only 4 or 5 types cover more than 50% usage. IMO this is not good for MA.
As has been demonstrated, out of those 50 or so fighters, no single fighter accounts for more than what, 10%? 11%? All Spitfires account for 19%, and that's lumping 4 fighters together. If the most common aircraft in AH, the Spit IX accounts for no more that 11-12%, you're going to have more like 6-9 aircraft accounting for 50%, not 4-5.
And that line of reasoning, counting only fighters, ignores the diversity that bombers, GVs and boats bring to the MA.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
None of you have addressed the real problem with the La7, N1K1, and Spit dweebs.
They all wear flourescent pink beanie caps - the ones with the propellar's on top.
This behavior is extremely distracting me as I'm LMFAO during the engagement, often times resulting in pepsi squirting from my nose all over the monitor making it impossible to see.
This "beanie" cheat creates an undue advantage.
I propose that "Beanie" caps be banned, or else be perked severely.
All I was told is I had to wear pink panties while flying the Spitfire. As they were extremely more comfortable than the leather undies that Wilbus informed me I'd be wearing if I flew LW iron, I gladly pull on the panties and get in my Dweebfire! Maybe I should switch to boxers and fly USN stuff... :D
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Czpetr, player XXX is a Zeke pilot because I saw him once in a Zeke, palyer YYY is a vulcher cause I saw him once vulching, player ZZZ is a buff adict cause I saw him once in a buff, player PPP only fights in vertical cause I saw him once climbing ...
Kieran, I have much more problems catching and killing P51s than Spits, and that plane also outturns and outguns any 190. I also see a lot of them lately, but this one has two real roles fighter/jabo, so I understand its hi usage level, IMO there is no reason to perk it.
In any case, if u think 109, 190 or P51 should be perked, you are totally free to express your oppinion here, and dont be affraid, you will not be massively insulted by me or any other famous LW-whinner for sure.
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Man-
You just don't get it. If you'd plainly state you want Spits perked only because you want to see other planes flown, fine. Others have said this, and though I don't agree with them nor do I think the facts back up those claims, I am not insulting them. I am not exactly attempting to insult you either, but originally (way, waaaaaay back when you started this campaign) attempted to reason with you. I have since moved to sarcasm, true enough.
You have shown an amazing invulnerability to logic, and seem to shore up your arguments with hyperbolic and inaccurate comments. Though proven wrong over and over, you persist in those lines of discussion. I perfectly understand the comments you've made so far. I perfectly understand where you are coming from. What you don't understand is my comment regarding your reasoning for perking anything.
It isn't about usage- if it was, you'd be after other aircraft that get used more.
It isn't about lethality- the planes you choose to fly have higher k/d.
It isn't about f/m- again, if there was an unfair f/m it would be reflected in the k/d and k/t, in which there does not appear to be a real discrepancy.
It's about you and what you are tired of seeing. It's about where you fly, for whom you fly, and when you fly. It is about the type of missions you want to fly. It is about what you choose to fly.
Now here is the supreme irony of your entire campaign- here you are, in the plane you choose to fly, trying to ensure others cannot fly the planes they want to fly so that you may better enjoy the one or two planes you choose to fly. In other words, it's ok for YOU to pick one plane and stick with it, but it is not ok for others to do the same. You don't want more variety, you want an environment that is conducive to the choice you made, simple as that.
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Top 10 Planes Killed by the Spit IX ...
P-51D........2354 (JABO/CAP)
N1K2.........2335 (CAP)
F6F-5........1787 (JABO/CAP)
La-7..........1548 (CAP)
P-38L.........519 (JABO/CAP)
F4U-1D......1500 (JABO/CAP)
Spitfire V...1445 (CAP)
A6M5b.......1249 (CAP - Sea Attack)
SeaFire......1192 (CAP - Sea Attack)
C-47A.........1117 (Nice Try !!)
Top 10 planes that killed the Spit IX ...
N1K2...........2607 (same as above - killed more than died))
P-51D..........2127 (same as above)
La-7............1848 (same as above - killed more than died)
Spitfire V.....1508 (same as above - killed more than died)
F6F-5..........1478 (same as above)
P-38L..........1178 (same as above - killed more than died)
F4U-1D........1157 (same as above)
Typhoon IB..1156 (not in above list - interesting !!!)
A6M5b.........1120 (same as above)
SeaFire........1089 (same as above)
Death position on the SPit IX list ...
190G-10 - 12th
190D-9 - 13th
109A-5 - 17th
190A-8 - 18th
109G-6 - 31st
109F-4 - 34th
109G-2 - 36th
109E-4 - 57th
From these stats (thanks DejaVu) it appears that the Spit is busy killing the other "uber" planes, other Spits, along with JABO planes that are attacking a field. The P38 really put it to the Spit IX ... so if the Spit IX is so "uber/UFO" then what is the P38 ?
The deaths of the 109s and the 190s from what I see are usually when they decide to drop into the fray and think that they can play in the low and slow - turn and burn arena.
The proliferation of Spits in the sky, from my observations, are around their own fields, and in a defensive position, and I think that these stats back it up.
The 109s and 190s are true "Vulchers". They sit high up in the tree waitiing for the true killers to bring the prey to its knees before it decides to drop down, get some meat, and return to it's high roost, looking for another opportunity.
It sounds like MANDOBLE and company want to de-fang the true killers so that they can play in the real game without getting bit too badly.
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"It's about you and what you are tired of seeing. It's about where you fly, for whom you fly, and when you fly. It is about the type of missions you want to fly. It is about what you choose to fly.
Now here is the supreme irony of your entire campaign- here you are, in the plane you choose to fly, trying to ensure others cannot fly the planes they want to fly so that you may better enjoy the one or two planes you choose to fly. In other words, it's ok for YOU to pick one plane and stick with it, but it is not ok for others to do the same. You don't want more variety, you want an environment that is conducive to the choice you made, simple as that."
I can't see it getting any simpler or clearer than that !!!
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Just an observation.....
I think some of you are revealing far to much of yourselves and if your not careful, could be in danger of forever forging in the minds of us all just how silly you really are. It's a game guys.
Just calm down and play....that's what this is all about anyway isn't it? Having some fun with our free time?
This display really doesn't send any good message to new players other than yikes.....I better keep my mouth shut or these guys are nuts. Step back, take a breath and love you neighbor:)
I personally blame Mathman for instigating this insanity...you sir, are a bad man:)
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geesh what a community
mandoble and tumor and urchin are handsomehunk whiners because they dont share the opinion of the never ending insult throwing fan bois.
A thread got locked last week because of the word "fluffer".
But the "ra-ra" crew toejame dont stink.
So what if you dont agree with mandoble or tumor or anyone else. the first 300 times you've called umm whiners, liars or distorter of the facts werent enough to shut him um up make sure you you repeat yourself in every post they make.
Mathman asked a question (which was more of a troll whether he meant it to be or not) and when i read it I already knew how the thread would end up. 2 or 3 guys gettin insulted by the "clique".
I guess they turned the keys over to the bbs "goon squad".
What a fediddlein joke.
as for spits being 19% that basically 2 planes not the whole spit or raf planeset but you knew that and still combined every lw fighter to get your 14%. Pure distortion of the facts.
I dont care what ya fly but theres a precedent that was set the 1st day ht introduced a perk system. Whether you like it or not its here. Its not absurd to have an opinion about expanding the perk set.
Karnak you have history of "hissy fits" and distortions. I am not gonna dig up your "whines" others can do that.
Mandoble believes that perking the spit ix would be good for game play. Well I dont.
See I was able to dissagree without all the other bs.
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19.35%= 3 versions of the Spit Wotan. Seafire, SpitV and SpitIX.
-SW
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Yup, I went too far, sorry.
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Originally posted by Wotan
geesh what a community
mandoble and tumor and urchin are handsomehunk whiners because they dont share the opinion of the never ending insult throwing fan bois.
No... they are handsomehunkes because they choose to insult, criticize, blame and do other completely handsomehunk things on a regular basis.A thread got locked last week because of the word "fluffer".
Umm... that's a pretty narrow view of that... maybe you are oversimplifying to prove a point? I believe that thread made it over a hundred posts... most of them involving people throwing insults back and forth.But the "ra-ra" crew toejame dont stink.
Ra-ra? Don't know where you get that. "Sick and tired of all the fricking pissing and moaning" crew would be more fitting. "Tired of people whining about what everyone else is doing" crowd would fit too.So what if you dont agree with mandoble or tumor or anyone else. the first 300 times you've called umm whiners, liars or distorter of the facts werent enough to shut him um up make sure you you repeat yourself in every post they make.
Thankyou... I will. Of course, very few people just post "mandoble is a whiner" in a subject line right out of the blue... its usually a RESPONSE to something else. Its the difference between being an instigator and just being tired of instigators.Mathman asked a question (which was more of a troll whether he meant it to be or not) and when i read it I already knew how the thread would end up. 2 or 3 guys gettin insulted by the "clique".
:rolleyes: Its not like they start off by insulting anyone. Nah.. its a one way streak. At least the "clique" focusses on the individuals being the tulips as opposed to generically citing everyone that flies a certain plane.I guess they turned the keys over to the bbs "goon squad".
Or its been driven to it.What a fediddlein joke.
as for spits being 19% that basically 2 planes not the whole spit or raf planeset but you knew that and still combined every lw fighter to get your 14%. Pure distortion of the facts.
Actually... it is the whole spit contingent (5 planes... Spit I, V, IX, XIV and Seafire) No two spits add up to 19%.I dont care what ya fly but theres a precedent that was set the 1st day ht introduced a perk system. Whether you like it or not its here. Its not absurd to have an opinion about expanding the perk set.
And its not obsurd to believe that some people's opinions on expanding the perk set could be considered obsurd by most.Karnak you have history of "hissy fits" and distortions. I am not gonna dig up your "whines" others can do that.
Mandoble believes that perking the spit ix would be good for game play. Well I dont.
Its why mandoble believes it would be good for gameplay that is rediculous. Sorry to say that once again... but, once again, its a response.See I was able to dissagree without all the other bs.
Ummm... you may want to reread your post... particularly "geesh what a community" and "never ending insult throwing fan bois" and "But the "ra-ra" crew toejame dont stink" and "2 or 3 guys gettin insulted by the "clique"" and "Karnak you have history of "hissy fits" and distortions". But other than that.. you managed to disagree without the other "bs".
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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BTW Kieran... nice post.
AKDejaVu
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Serious Question #2
Why would anyone continually torture themselves playing a game that wasn't fun for them or made them unhappy because it wasn't being played the way they thought it should be played?
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Originally posted by Toad
Serious Question #2
Why would anyone continually torture themselves playing a game that wasn't fun for them or made them unhappy because it wasn't being played the way they thought it should be played?
Answer: Machismo--Ego.
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Mandoble believes that perking the spit ix would be good for game play. Well I dont.
Wotan, your reply is too civilized to be accepted in this BBS ;)
It's about you and what you are tired of seeing
Kieran, at least you understood!! Congrats! When some one ask to extend the night period, it is about him and his likes, when some one ask to increase the perk cost of 262, it is about him ans his likes, when some one ask for a P40, it is about him and his likes, when some one ask to increase the air-condittioner it is about him and his likes. Wellcome to the human thinking way.
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Yeah, but Rude has a point.
We aren't doing the sim any good with this. Man has his point of view, and it isn't going to change no matter what. I certainly haven't seen anything yet to give me cause to change mine. Arguing back and forth is therefore only perpetuating acrimony.
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Only number that would matter in this "discussion" would be sorties. All we have numbers for are kills, and that is not the same thing - not nearly (for obvious reasons once you give it some thought).
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
My mistake.. I added the 110G-2 in there with 2.01%
Doesn't really matter though. 19 kills vs 13 kills still...
Its not a drastically different picture. Then again... for every 100 planes someone sees, 81 will not be a spit... and 87 will not be LW.
Its amazing how someone can turn 20% into "all I ever see..." and 13% into "I never see..."
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Turbot
Only number that would matter in this "discussion" would be sorties.
You are totally right. We can take off 1000 times without killing or being killed and in the mean while filling up the skies with the same plane. But we dont have numbers to discusse about sorties
:(
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All of you ask yourself this question:
When someone logs in and says "hi, I'm new, what plane is easy to fly?" What do you answer?
Most times I see the buffer, guys are recommending the Spit. I say pay people perks to fly it, its easy to kill, and newbies like it. ;)
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Kieran - great summary. Hey guys - let's call a truce. Rude is right. I agree to disagree ;). I'll also 2nd Fester's suggestion on buying Mandoble and Tumor a beer- if you guys are at the con. Heck, I'll even buy one for Wotan ;). I'll even buy Urch a beer if he promises to stop shooting me down ;).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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EDITED
heck with it
its not worth dragging this thread out any further
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The whole problem, the way I see it, is that in the MA you see 6 spits for every 1 type of other AC in the air. You see 3 or 4 La7's for every 1 other plane type.. and 2 or 3 n1ks per every other plane type.
Now, LW iron and P-51 make up *most* of the "other plane type" seen in the air, P-47s, italian rides and zero/ki-61 are rare.. P-38 was rare up until last tour (and even then most 38s you see are kamikaze planes).
And that in essence has grown so old and so annoying that it would be nice if something was done to change it. Now Mandoble/Tumor/etc suggest light perk cost or RPS or what have it. Others just say shutzefukup, and a few just like to lurk around and start flamewars or make themselves look good by bashing other's points of view and opinions. *shrug*
If it was up to me i'd perk every plane above its earliest model. For example:
Spit 1 : free
Seafire : free
SpitV: 1 perk
SpitIX : 2 perks
Spit 14: 20 perks
109's
109E:Free
109F:1 perk
109G2:1.5 perks
109G6:2 perks
109G10:2.5 perks
P-51B: Free
P-51D: 2 perks
P-38F: Free ;)
P-38J : 1 perk :p
P-38L : 1.5 perks :D
P-47D11:free
D25: 1 perks
D30: 1.5 perks
190A5:free
F8: .5 perks
A8:1 perk
D9 : 1.5 perks
152: 20 perks
La5:Free
La7: 1.8 perks
and so on.
The way I see it, a light perk cost like this would create a "market" for the perks and have them be used constantly. The perk cost would make the late war planes be expensive to up constantly IN the long run (since late war killing early war=very little perk gain). It'd make the MA more varied in A/C. Of course, the eny/obj would have to be modified a bit so that an La7 would need to kill a few (say, 5?) spit 1's before he can "repay" his La7 perk cost.
Just look at the CHOG. I mean, WOW, when they were unperked the only thing you'd see was F4U all over the damn sky. It got real old real fast..plus the added aggravation of its ungodly guns/ammo load. It was perked at a relatively high 8 perks to start with.. its usage DROPPED like a brick. But I think it wouldve still dropped dramatically if it had only costed 4 or 2 perks to up. The same effect can and should be applied to all planes in the MA, it'd keep things varied (or at least more varied than now).
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Originally posted by Karnak
How many times do we really need to hear terms like:
"Luftwhiner"
"Spitdweeb"
"Luftwaffle"
"Shitfire"
"Barbiefire"
Ect, ect?
how can you leave out:
Luftweenie
FWeenie
FWeeb
Spittard
Spitoon
Spitwit
:confused:
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Do you know my style?
yep...
gangin', cherrypickin' and vulchin', oh my!
:rolleyes:
:D
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I always tell them the Bf-110g2
Theres no plane i fear when in this.
BTW who porked the K/D for the 110? fess up!
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Ripsnort
All of you ask yourself this question:
When someone logs in and says "hi, I'm new, what plane is easy to fly?" What do you answer?
Most times I see the buffer, guys are recommending the Spit. I say pay people perks to fly it, its easy to kill, and newbies like it. ;)
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Originally posted by Shane
yep...
gangin', cherrypickin' and vulchin', oh my!
:rolleyes:
:D
So YOUR the one that caused him to post! LOL!!!
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The whole problem, the way I see it, is that in the MA you see 6 spits for every 1 type of other AC in the air. You see 3 or 4 La7's for every 1 other plane type.. and 2 or 3 n1ks per every other plane type.
That's pretty fuzzy math...
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Tac, I agree with your idea, even agree with your list, but you forgot the 190A9 :cool:
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Originally posted by Tac
The whole problem, the way I see it, is that in the MA you see 6 spits for every 1 type of other AC in the air. You see 3 or 4 La7's for every 1 other plane type.. and 2 or 3 n1ks per every other plane type
OK, this is NOT a flame. :D
But Tac, think about it. "the way I see it" is the entire problem throughout the thread. It defines the problem.
That is, no one seems to see it the same way. The problem does not have a "standard" definition.
For example, you just posted your perception of your experiences in the MA seeing other aircraft.
My perception of seeing other aircraft in the MA does not match yours. I don't see nearly that proportion of Spits, La's or N1k's.
Someone else's doesn't match either one of ours.
But, most likely, NONE of us have ever filmed our last 5 hours in the MA and gone back counting the enemy icons to see what we actually DID see. We just have a perception.
The kill stats really can be misleading. Sortie stats would be much more useful in framing these "I see too many XXXX" arguments. However, no player that I know of has those stats. HTC may have them or they may not keep them.
In any event, this whole thing is a perceived problem. It depends on the individual's perception and there are no sortie stats crossreferenced to arena time period to back up anyone's perception.
So it is and will likely always be an endless argument.
Me? I just attack the ones sporting red icons, whatever flavor they turn out to be. Would I be personally any happier if every plane somehow got equal usage and thus fell equally to my poor skills? Not really; I enjoy the game as it was in beta, is now and probably will be in the future. But that's just my perception.
Let's play.
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The whole problem, the way I see it, is that in the MA you see 6 spits for every 1 type of other AC in the air. You see 3 or 4 La7's for every 1 other plane type.. and 2 or 3 n1ks per every other plane type.
Originally posted by Kieran
That's pretty fuzzy math...
Yeah.
Hey, Mathman, since you started this, could you run us up an equation that reflects Tac's hypothesis?
Then you could do a "proof" for us. After all, you are........ MATHMAN!
:D
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Shut up. Relax, and enjoy the game.
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(this is meant more as a joke, however it's true)
Tac, the Seafire Mk IIc is a later model than the Spitfire Mk Vb. In fact, the Seafire Mk Ib were just converted Spitfire Mk Vb's.
so the seafire should be the 1 point perkie, while the spit V should be free!!! :D
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"But, most likely, NONE of us have ever filmed our last 5 hours in the MA and gone back counting the enemy icons to see what we actually DID see. We just have a perception."
Hehe, lemme post a of what I see tonight in the MA. I usually see spit-spit-spit-spit-spit-spit-la7-la7-n1k-n1k-109-109-190-la7-spit-p51-109-spit-p51-la7-n1k-n1k as I fly above and through a furball. :)
Edit: just saw Deja's kill stats.. looking at the total k/d stats of the non-perked spits..
Spit1 909 2849
SpitIX 36125 34513
Spit V 15606 16840
Seafire 12104 12836
64744 kills 67038 deaths
Pick a middle point and you have 65k of spit or so.
Now go through the stats of other planes (add up 109s, 190s and f4us as if they were one) and tell me if ANY come close to that. :) Thats a LOT of spits compared with the rest from where I see it. Its a plague I tell you :D
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you cant up spitV from carrier though nifty. And its performance is worse than the V from what ive experienced.
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Well, if performance is the issue, why perk the 190A8 but not the A5? Seems to me you have that one backwards, don't you?
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Carrier launched kieren? You want me to perk the only spit that takes off a fleet? ;)
The A5 is the earliest model, so its free. A8 is next model avaliable and its a tad faster and has much better armaments.
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Consider this, Tac... which aircraft is more capable in an A2A engagement? C'mon, don't even try to tell me it's the A8. Now I believe your proposal is better than others that have been forwarded, but your logic for perking isn't very consistent.
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what logic? just perk any that aint the earliest model in the game. a5 performs better than a8? so what? or a8 better than a5? so what? 5 comes before 8 last time I checked :)
As far as the seafire not being perked but the V is... well, the seafire is carrier based. Just like i'd say the F4U-D shouldnt be perked because its carrier capable (that or have the F4U-1 be carrier launchable too and then perk the -d hog at 1 perk point).
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Originally posted by Tac
Hehe, lemme post a of what I see tonight in the MA.
Good. Just make sure you don't miscount. IE: Don't count the same Spit on the same sortie twice. Not going to be easy.
Plus you can't skew the data by flying just in one way or area. IE: if you hang out near an enemy carrier, you're going to skew to Seafires, Zero, F6F's and F4U's. If you hang high over a HQ, you'll skew the count towards buffs.
It's not going to be easy to get a "representative" sample. :)
Edit: just saw Deja's kill stats.. looking at the total k/d stats of the non-perked spits..
Originally posted by Tac
Thats a LOT of spits compared with the rest from where I see it. Its a plague I tell you :D
You're just coming round the circle in this entire thread's argument here.
"Lots" by what standard? You see it this way, but others don't. For example, I don't see it that way. But there's many ways to measure.
Most importantly, apparently HTC doesn't see it that way.
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Just curious, what does carrier based have to do with anything?
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Ok, for argument's sake...
What do you do with the Ki61? The Nikki? Now you have a problem... if you don't perk the Nikki or the Ki61, you have two planes that potentially upset arena balance, and practically guarantee that no one will fly anything but Nikkis. But... the Nikki has no predecessor, therefore does not fall into the formula. Perk by year? No, you've already skewed that.
Have you thought about the A6m5? Should that really be perked, even with an A6m2 available?
Perk the A20G? After all, if we have the Boston I it follows we should perk it.
Yes, I'm being a bit facetious here, but I guess I'm pointing out it isn't as simple as it sounds to perk everything in the manner you spoke of. Personally I'd love it, though, because the 190A5 is my favorite ride, and the setup you've suggested will allow it to be a dominant fighter. Still, it shouldn't be about what is best for me or any one person.
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Originally posted by Tac
"But, most likely, NONE of us have ever filmed our last 5 hours in the MA and gone back counting the enemy icons to see what we actually DID see. We just have a perception."
I record all of my flights.Edit: just saw Deja's kill stats.. looking at the total k/d stats of the non-perked spits..
Spit1 909 2849
SpitIX 36125 34513
Spit V 15606 16840
Seafire 12104 12836
64744 kills 67038 deaths
Did you see how many total kills there were last tour? 477557. The spits accounted for about 13.6% of them. The 190/109s accounted for 45085 kills themselves... a measly 9.4% of the total kills in the MA.
You should stick to Fighter vs Fighter as opposed to all stats. The spits suck against bombers with the Spit IX being the only one to actually hold its own in that role. The LW rides simply pull away there.
None of these numbers aproach the 33% record held by the F4u-1C (all by its lonesome).
AKDejaVu
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BTW Tac... the top 3 used US fighters account for about 13.9% of total kills in the MA last tour. You're just as likely to see a P-51, P-38 or F6F as any spit. The only difference is that they all have different IDs.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Nifty
Actually, unperk them all and see what the usage would be for a tour. I'd have absolutely nothing against a totally free tour.
To argue the point though... Yes, I am that much of a dictator, actually HTC is. I am not for the fly ANY thing you want principle. I want the Me262 perked, and the other high performance monster rides as well. F4U-1C? I dunno, but HTC thought it was "everywhere". I bet if you disable it from carriers and unperk it, it's usage wouldn't be nearly as bad as it was before it was perked.
Obviously the Spit IX, Spit V, Seafire, and Spit I are not perked for their performance issues. The world will laugh at you if you think 1942 and earlier planes should be perked on their performance. ;) So we can only compare the perking of the Spitfires to the perking of the F4U-1C. Comparing it to any other perk ride is comparing apples and oranges. Not one of the Spit variants has ever come close to the kill % of the F4U-1C (which we can use as HTC's bar for perking on usage stats.) Only if you combined all the Spits do you get the F4U-1C kill %. In this tour, the Spit usage has dropped off on its own. You'd be suggesting to perk a plane (Spit IX) that has just 7.65% of the kills, just over 1/3 of what it took to get the CHog perked. Hmm, let's just change SPIT to be SPIT9, SPIT5, SEAFR, SPIT1. Then you won't see so many SPIT tags. ;)
I like the new SPIt tag idea, also, a lot of the newer people looking for the best plane like to fly spits, thus the kill percentage is not as high as the CHog because of the pilots. My suggestion is to think into the factory bombing idea
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"You should stick to Fighter vs Fighter as opposed to all stats"
Why? Im not putting it in fighter vs XX , but just total kills and deaths. To not count a spit that took off and got nailed by a flaktank would eliminate #'s of spits that actually took off and were seen in the MA. Im not saying spit performs this and that, just that there's a LOT of them :)
"The only difference is that they all have different IDs."
And they are not the same plane either. So what's your point there? :confused:
Kieran: Just like I put the 38F/J in my example, you'd need to have an earlier model in the game to perk it. For arguments sake, if they did this system and n1k/p38/ki61 remain unperked, then their perk gaining ability should be nill. Besides, a n1k or ki61 would be hard pressed fighting the "free" spitv's and zekes and p51b's and la5's. Eventually i'd hope to see the n1k-1 put in. Or alternatively, perk the n1k at 1.5 perks initially because it is a late war model (the last of its series too I think). It worked in the pac CT quite nicely.
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Originally posted by Tac
"You should stick to Fighter vs Fighter as opposed to all stats"
Why? Im not putting it in fighter vs XX , but just total kills and deaths. To not count a spit that took off and got nailed by a flaktank would eliminate #'s of spits that actually took off and were seen in the MA. Im not saying spit performs this and that, just that there's a LOT of them :)
No... you're saying that you see alot of them.. then you include their stats from every other vehicle. You are using the total stats for the whole arena to try to prove something you have already admitted is perception."The only difference is that they all have different IDs."
And they are not the same plane either. So what's your point there? :confused:
Confused? You listed 4 different planes when grabbing those numbers. Or are you saying all of the different spits are really just one plane?
Perking the Spit because it is the most used is rediculous. You basically set the precident to perk every aircraft that is the most used... wich will be the next one in line.
The C-Hog was not perked because it was the most used... it was perked because it was completely overused. Maybe if you want to get the spit perked.. you could try talking people into flying it until 30% of the MA kills are from spits. But you'd better make sure they all use just one spit to do it.... then move on to the next.
AKDejaVu
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Jeez, I read the whole friggin thing :eek:
Nice BBQ, 3 or for separate "give and takes" goin on...likely to continue...
Being new, I fail to see the point of this WHOLE argument.
Spits ?? Niki's, La 7's ???
What exactly is there to fear from any of them ??
If you know there strengths and weaknesses and act accordingly...
Where's the problem ??
If what your really trying to do is to live, you never enter a fight unless it's to your advantage. Not fair...smart :)
The old quote "Find yourself in a fair fight, you planned wrong"
I can do it for stretches, but in the end, it's pretty boring.
I've been a 190 pilot for the last three years in WB. I chose to fly it because it's got big fuggin guns :D and over there it "took some" to learn to tame the beast.
The "uber" plane of choice there is the 51. But I chose.....my choice, not fly it ( except for an occasional sortie ) Flying an A4 vs a 51D late war was a squeak. But ohhhhh were the kills sweet. And I loved late war because of it.
I have found 2 planes over here that I really enjoy. The F4U-1D, the Cannon Hog fails to reach out and touch someone the way 50's do. Fly the 1D like an A4 and have a ball. The Corsair SUCKS in WB. Ask lazs he'll fill ya in ;) I LOVE that plane.
The other is the Spit IX :eek:
Why the Spit IX ?? Because I enjoy finding a boom and zoomer and camp underneath him until he can no longer resist coming down...and see what we can cook up. If he's good, has self control, I'm toast. But me and the Spit have had some REAL good times that way.
All the planes die the same way, personal choice is personal choice.
The uber plane of the minute will change next month. and if the Niki's and La7's are gettin you down, you just aren't using your noodle..
I choose not to use my noodle quite alot...
Have some real good fights that way..
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"Or are you saying all of the different spits are really just one plane?"
It says "spit" is what im saying. Thats why im using all EXCEPT Spit14 stats in that. And when you see 67038 deaths.. you can count those as 67038 spits that upped and died.. and this aint counting those that rtb'd (or ditched?) . What other plane in the MA can claim so many sorties? Even when you add the 109 models or the 190s they dont get to half of that. Heck, even adding the 190 AND the 109s together you see the spits upped 20,000+ times more (109+190=41,800 something).
"Perking the Spit because it is the most used is rediculous"
I said to perk ALL planes with an early war model. This includes spits as well as any other plane. Its just one thing I think would help move along the perk market and allow the use of other planes (would you up a spit 1 and fly 2 sectors to face a furball of spitIX's and la7's all the time?).
"you include their stats from every other vehicle"
So you saying that vehicles dont count? So if I up an flaktank and get strafed by 4 spitfires.. and I shoot them all down, does that mean those 4 spitfires never flew in the MA?
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So Tac, you'd force Spit and 109 fans to fly 1940 versions against 1943 Fw190s, La-5FNs, Mosquitoes, F4Us, C.205s, Yak-9s, P-51Bs and 1944 P-38Ls, P-47Ds, A6M5s, Ki-61s, Typhoons, F6F-5s and N1K2s?
That doesn't sound very balanced, but it does sound rather arcade like. "If your favorite aircraft entered service early in the war, tough, you have to fly the original against things designed to outdo the latter versions of your aircraft?"
Seems that would cause a rather rapid flight of players from the game.
Perking by year would make much more sense, then at least you'd have things flying with other things from the same rough tech period.
I see that you are talking about the icon "Spit" being too common and you don't care which it is. Simple fix would be to relabel them "Spit9", "Spit5", "Spit1" and "Sea2". Do that and presto, no more monolithic like grouping of icons that all read "Spit".
Wotan,
Yes, I've had my outbursts. There is certainly no denying that.
I would very much like to see a post with me distorting stats though. To the best of my knowlege I have never done that. I always try to use real data.
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Perk the Chutes!
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Actually... I rather like the 'monolithic' groupings of spit, 109,190. It gives the player who chooses to fly an earlier varient the advantage of his opponent fighting him the 'wrong' way at first.
For instance- Say I am flying a Spit IX, and I see a Spit V. What will I do? Not turn with it, thats for damn sure. I might BnZ, might E-fight it, but the Spit V has very little chance to win the fight because I KNOW it is a Spit V.
Now lets assume I'm in an La7. I see a 109. I assume this is a 109G-10 because they are the most common ones. Oh, no problem I say, I can kick this planes ass! So a little turnight comes into being because I know my plane will out-turn a 109G-10. But.. whats this? The whoopee 109 whipped around so fast it looked like a greyish BLUR! SURPRISE!!! It was 109F4, and I just died because I underestimated its turning ability. Had I known it was an F4 from the start, I would have never turned with it.
I think having the same tags for the earlier versions as are on the later versions is a GOOD THING . Course that's just my opinion.
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"Perking by year would make much more sense, then at least you'd have things flying with other things from the same rough tech period."
That is another alternative. But its almost the same thing as what I said.. after all, isn't perking by year mean the 1938 planes would be unperked and any after perked? Not much different from giving the earliest model free and the rest perked (cheeeaply). And perking by year would make the 190 be perked from the very start, without it having a "free" model since it came out in 1942.
The way I see it, a spit 1 has a good chance of fighting off a 190A5, but the A5 wont be able to completely and absolutely overwhelm the spit 1 in the same way a 152 or D9 would. The spit 1 would have much better perk gaining ability than the A5 because it is in fact, an older ride. And hey, at 1->3 perks to fly the other, later models, what's the problem? Its like using perks to create a semi-rolling planeset, the more you use the late war planes the less perks you'll have, run out of perks then get more with cheaper or free rides.
I had 3600 perks stored and last tour I decided to enjoy them, flying 262s on strafing runs, 152's on buff intercepts, etc. Now I got 1200 perks.. by the end of this tour I may have ran out, and this is flying mainly the almost untouchable 262. Once I burn my remaining 6 262 rides I'll have to go back to my "free" ride and get more. Now, compare getting 200 perks to getting 4 perks max to get a late war plane in the Rolling Perk Set (TM! ;) ), you may notice isnt exactly a hardship :)
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Urchin,
Like you I would like the icons to prvide as little info as possible, that goes for perk planes too..
Hell, I'd rather the icons simply used the Rook, Knight or Bishop symbol from D6.0 until about D3.0 after which the basic plane name would be attached. I'd like the range display to be replaced by a system that indicated closure, such as this:
Spit
+++
means that you are gaining very rapidly on some sort of Spitfire, Ia to XIVc.
F4U
++
means that you are gaining at a good rate on some sort of F4U
110
+
means that you are slowly gaining on a Bf110 version
MOSS
=
means that you are moving at close to the same speed as a Mosquito of some type. You may be gaining very slowly or he may be extending very slowly
P51
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means that a P-51 is slowly extending away from you
190
--
means that a 190, from A-5 to 152H-1, is extending from you at a good clip
TYPH
---
means that a Typhoon or Tempest is extending very rapidly from you
That's the icon system I'd like anyways.
Tac,
I don't know, but I don't think the Spit I has a snowballs chance in hell against an Fw190A-5. The Spit IX vs 190A-5 is vastly more balanced and more interesting for the participants.
Personlly if I were to perk by year (and I wouldn't if I were running a business like HTC is) I wouldn't use 1938 or 1940 as the base year, I'd use 1943 as the highest free year. I think 1943 offers the most interesting balance and fights. The super fighters that render dive-bombers obsolete and easily chase down and kill multi-role aircraft like the Bf110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito haven't shown up yet, heavy bombers are readily available as are mediums and the fighters are very good, but not stupifying.
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Mandoble, don`t take me wrong (6.5.). I didn`t criticise your style, just commented what I saw. I consider boom´n´zoom as normal method of killing Spits with 190s, in most circumstances even the only method how to kill Spit. And my question was, how do you imagine the interesting fight against Spit with FW190, avoiding turning and other things that Spit can do well and you don`t like them? Aren`t you bored rather with your plane because the plane you prefer cannot have "interesting" fight with Spit because of its performance? Than should be more fair to change the plane you fly to something more equal to Spit (and you will have a lot of interesting fights against Spits ;)) than force people to fly something other than they like. Don`t you think?
czpetr
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It's funny, I work all day with a bunch of people I have very little in common with. I am nice and cordial and polite. And yet feel compelled to argue with those in here who I share a common passion with over trivial differences in perception.
Sounds about right to me :)
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Fortunately for me when I'm flying it's my choice so "BITE ME!"
(http://www.applink.net/thunder/spoof/thefinger_red.gif)
Thunder
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Czpetr, my flying style, as probably yours, depends on what the other pilot do and how many enemies are nearby, not just what the other pilot fly. SpitIX is one of the best E fighters we have, but 90% of spits pilots simply keep turning horizontally in a dime and spraying while they turn, or just pointing nose up in and keep spraying till they score one or two hispano hits at 700 ayard and almost stalled. This seems to be inherent to the spirit of most spit pilots, probably cause most of them are "greens" and the plane is suitable to do that kind of moves. Fighting against this over'n over (cause they are everywhere everytime) is boring for me, yep.
A side note: it is funny to see how people insulting some ones two day ago cause they want to perk something are now accepting some kind of perk system for the entire planeset and discussing about the perks for each plane, very coherent.
Djvu, % of kills alone doesnt mean % of usage:
One 109 vs 3 spits resulting in the 109 dead and one spit dead. Your conclussion statistically would be that 109 has same usage as spit, 1/1.
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MANDOBLE,
Who's excepting perks for the whole planeset?
I was merely speaking hypothetically. That's why I included the disclaimer "and I wouldn't if I were running a business like HTC is".
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
One 109 vs 3 spits resulting in the 109 dead and one spit dead. Your conclussion statistically would be that 109 has same usage as spit, 1/1.
Wait, weren't you the one who, awhile back, hyperbollicy stated that Spits allow any low-talent person to dive into a furball and obtain three kills before dying?
It seems that by that logic, the kill stats overestimate actual Spitfire use by three times.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It seems that by that logic, the kill stats overestimate actual Spitfire use by three times.
-- Todd/Leviathn
By 9 times. He's gone from one spit can get 3 kills to it takes 3 spits to get 1 kill. ;)
AKDejaVu
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STOP THE INSANITY!!!!
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PUSH THE BUTTON DALE!
:eek:
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Czpeter! Well said.
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A side note: it is funny to see how people insulting some ones two day ago cause they want to perk something are now accepting some kind of perk system for the entire planeset and discussing about the perks for each plane, very coherent.
Let it go. You've done your share of insulting.
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no way!!! 6 pages! come on, we can do it!
ooo, I like Karnak's icon idea by the way. I usually can pick out the differences between the Spits anyways. Brown based, it's a Spit I or Spit V. Light grey based, and it's a Seafire or Spit IX. Gotta look closely to differentiate from there though. Urchin's right on the 109F-4 and 109G-10. Tough to differentiate from the get go on those, if I'm not mistaken on my AH aircraft markings. 190D-9s stick out like a sore thumb with the green tho. ;)
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It's amazing how fast you can get through new posts on this BBS if you just add about 5 particular individuals to your ignore list. :)
bowser
P.S. Lessens the chances of getting steamed too.