Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: udet on June 03, 2002, 01:30:22 PM
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Does anybody have reference on how the 2 20mm cannons in wing gondolas affect the performane of the 109?
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Here is the G-2 with and without gunpods.
(http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/aviation/ww2/russia/data/Aircraft-evaluation-21.jpg)
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let me get this right. 190A4 is SLOWER then G2 WITH gondolas ?
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hmmm...
the HTC charts for the A5 and G2 show very similar speed and climb numbers... the A5 jogs around a bit, but essentially the numbers match up at a lot of points.
Didn't the A4 have the same engine as the A5, and was lighter? According to HTC, that would make it faster than the G2.
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I have a British report on Tactical Trials of a Me.109G with under-wing gondolas that may be of some interest.
For comparison with a Spitfire IX see:
HERE (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/109gtac.html)
For comparison with a Spitfire XIV see:
HERE (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/109gtacvspit14.html)
Even the Tempest was found to be slightly superior in turn.
Against the Mustang III: "The Mustang has no difficulty at all in out-turning the Me.109 in either direction."
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thank you all.
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This A4 tested at the NII-VSS dis not perform very well (probably because of the repairs) and could not achieve a greater manifold pressure than 1.3 without severe overheating.
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Somewhere was a story about Finnish 109 with gondolas which was in a turn-fight with a russian P-51. Mustang lost the fight when it started to stall. Not sure if 109 was G-2 or G-6.
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I think there was just two 109s in FAF which had cannon pods still (cannon pods were removed from others)
I believe those were both G6's.
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Originally posted by Staga
Somewhere was a story about Finnish 109 with gondolas which was in a turn-fight with a russian P-51. Mustang lost the fight when it started to stall. Not sure if 109 was G-2 or G-6.
It was Lt Kyosti Karhila, who scored 32 confirmed victories in Curtiss Hawks and 109s.
During summer -44 he shot two P51s down with his 109 G-6, equipped with the 20mm gondolas. Both were in a horizontal turn'n'burn fight. He describes one of the victores in detail. After several 360 degree circles the P51 tried to tighten the turn, was about to stall, loosened the pull, which enabled "Kossi" to get enough lead to get the shot in. The whole left side of the P51 was torn off. Altitude was about 2km, speeds around 250km/h for Karhila, 300km/h for the P51. This enabled Karhila to stay inside in the turn.
There has been a lot of debate whether these planes were P51s or Yaks. Karhila is well aware of the differences between the planes. There were altogether six P51 claims made by the Finnish pilots. Many details suggest that the planes indeed were P51s, with the "razorback" style fuselage and cage canopy as in the P51B in AH.
Look for a new interview of Karhila, coming soon to the virtualpilots' website: http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/
Camo
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Hmmmmm...
Can't find any evidence of P-51's as Lend Lease aircraft. Doesn't show as a type that was supplied. Possible they could have still gotten hold of some.
Aircraft types operated by Russian military forces during World War Two. (http://www.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_russia.htm#fighter)
Lend-Lease to the USSR (http://www.geocities.com/ojoronen/LENDLSE.HTM)
Lend-lease Aircraft (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/lldocefx.asp)
Single-Engine Fighters * Shipped * Lost In Transit * Arrived
P-39/P-400 Aircobra *4,719 * Unknown * 3,200 est.
P-40F Kittyhawk * 4,017 * Unknown * 2,975 est.
P-47C Thunderbolt * 195 *0 * 195
P-63 King Cobra * 2,456 * 67 * 2,389
British Hurricane * 2,952 *Unknown * 2,250 est.
British Spitfire *1,331 * Unknown * 1,000 est
So maybe Mustangs and maybe not.
But I'd be looking to see if there's any evidence the Russians had any Mustangs first.
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The Russians received 10 Mustang Is from the RAF in May 42. They were mostly used for evaluation and didn't see any combat from what I can gather. That's all the documented deliveries of Mustangs they received as far as I know. Slim to no chance the Finns saw a Mustang.
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I bet that if the russians had Mustangs and the Finns had Brewsters the Finns would have still get a higher kill/loss ratio :D
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Thx Butch and MW, great data.
Apar
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Originally posted by Kratzer
Didn't the A4 have the same engine as the A5, and was lighter? According to HTC, that would make it faster than the G2.
The A5 was actually heavier than the A4.
A4: 3,989 kg.
A5: 4,000 kg.
-SW
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Yes but the A4 was limited to 1.3ata at max boost and 1.15ata at 100% due to severe overheating problems (according to Rechlin test) compared to the A5 1.42 max boost and 1.3 at 100%.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The A5 was actually heavier than the A4.
A4: 3,989 kg.
A5: 4,000 kg.
-SW
Yeah - read it again - that's what I said. The A4 had the same engine as the A5, and was lighter.
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Originally posted by mw
The Russians received 10 Mustang Is from the RAF in May 42. They were mostly used for evaluation and didn't see any combat from what I can gather. That's all the documented deliveries of Mustangs they received as far as I know. Slim to no chance the Finns saw a Mustang.
Other examination has shown that they received more Mustangs. We also have a confirmed sighting of four P-38s over the Karelian skies in June/July 1944. Hell if I know where those P-51s and P-38s came from, but they were there whatever official lend-lease figures claim.
Valte Estama's encounter with P-51s:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-EstamaBrothers.html#mustang
That's a "very probable" P-51 recognization after Valte verified the plane type from ID books and intelligence afterwards, as he had plenty time to examine the enemy plane.
Mr. Karhila's two encounters with P-51s/A-36s/Mustang Is/whatever are also specific to the smallest detail. Absolutely no chance of id hassle with that one. On the other hand mr. Hemmo Leino has a P-51 in his kill list, but mr. Leino already argued back then with the squadron intelligence guy that it definitely was a Spitfire V and nothing else. "There are no SPitfires in this area" was the answer and it was recorded as P-51. But Spit it was.
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>>Didn't the A4 have the same engine as the A5, and was lighter? According to HTC, that would make it faster than the G2.<<
Kratzer:
The following quoted excerpt is from "An Illustrated Guide to World War II Fighters" Tiger Books International -London
"Introduced to service early in 1943, the FW 190A5 was a version of the FW 190A-4 with a revised engine mounting that positioned the BMW801D-2 engine some 5.9 inches farther forward (to increase length to 29ft. 4.25 in./8.95m and restore the center of gravity to the location it had occupied before its alteration by the addition of extra equipment in the rear fuselage), a maximum takeoff weight of 9,480 lbs...."
The takeoff weight of the FW 190A-4 was 8,377 lbs, a substantial increase. They made adjustments to the A5 airframe to enable it to accomodate carrying additional ordnance.
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who cares about the FW? i asked about the 109 :p
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>>who cares about the FW? i asked about the 109 <<
Back off Udet! I was answerin Kratzer's question, he hijacked yer topic not me :D I can say tho that my reference info has no reference to the 109 G2 or G6 as being faster than the FW 190 A5 or A5.
The FW A4 and A5 at 20k max speed (clean) was 416 mph; the 109 g2 or G6 max speed (clean ) at 22k was 386 mph. There were variations and boost system could increase power at certain alts a lot, but for sustained power and speed the FW190 had em beat hands down.
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The FW A4 and A5 at 20k max speed (clean) was 416 mph; the 109 g2 or G6 max speed (clean ) at 22k was 386 mph. There were variations and boost system could increase power at certain alts a lot, but for sustained power and speed the FW190 had em beat hands down.
The preformance of the FW190 dropped dramatically whenever it went above 20k feet. That's why they kept producing 109s.
Therefore your data cannot be used for comparison :D
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1)
Bf-109G2/R6 - 315m sustained turn radius
P-51A - 290m sustained turn radius
2)
P51A turns inside 109G2/r6 (lower speed/smaller radius)
3)
P-51A had never beed used in VVS (as well as other P-51s).
;)
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Originally posted by -aper-
1)
Bf-109G2/R6 - 315m sustained turn radius
P-51A - 290m sustained turn radius
2)
P51A turns inside 109G2/r6 (lower speed/smaller radius)
3)
P-51A had never beed used in VVS (as well as other P-51s).
;)
1 & 2)
Plain numbers never show the whole truth. There are many other factors that affect air combat as well than just theoretical turn radius. Mr. Karhila definitely outturned them - he is alive today and is credited with those kills.
What's so hard in reading this, which was already posted above:
He describes one of the victores in detail. After several 360 degree circles the P51 tried to tighten the turn, was about to stall, loosened the pull, which enabled "Kossi" to get enough lead to get the shot in. The whole left side of the P51 was torn off. Altitude was about 2km, speeds around 250km/h for Karhila, 300km/h for the P51. This enabled Karhila to stay inside in the turn.
3)
Yet, the P-51s were there. As well as the P-38s.
Not in large numbers - but there anyway.
Don't just blindly believe everything that is written in papers.
Also, I've been there listening to mr. Karhila describe those events. And he can and does proof the events. That is something that nobody can deny and try to claim otherwise.
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sure Grendel but you compare different things :
1st case we have Plane1 vs Plane2
2nd case (your :)) Plane1+pilot1 vs Plane2+pilot2
it's not the same variables no ?
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Originally posted by straffo
sure Grendel but you compare different things :
1st case we have Plane1 vs Plane2
2nd case (your :)) Plane1+pilot1 vs Plane2+pilot2
it's not the same variables no ?
You're right of course.
One thing that mr. Karhila had told us, when we were wondering how the heck he even turnfought with the cannonboot 109 against Soviet fighters, was how he used throttle.
He told that he had noticed how practically all pilots showed the throttle full ahead when entering combat. Well, he didn't, he used throttle according the situation - and found out that he could out turn fighters that in paper more agile. Take a P-51 pulling hard on the stick and runnign on combat throttle setting (speed about 300 km/h), see a 109 turning behind him using less throttle (speed about 250 km/h) to gain more turn rate. See the P-51 getting shot down.
That's also basic aerodynamics/aviation knowledge. You turn better when you fly slower. But that's something most pilots didn't know back then.
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Originally posted by Don
[BThe FW A4 and A5 at 20k max speed (clean) was 416 mph[/B]
not in AH, I tested it the other day, at 22.500 feet, the Fw190A5 makes less than 407mph.
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Grendel
I saw lots of reports from russian pilots who claimed they fought with He-113. It's not a prove that He-113 had ever been built.
P-51A had never been used by VVS.
I'd better believe that FAF pilots fought with LaGG-3's
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Estama had wondered when the plane wasn't slender like the Airacobra, but "it had that bump in the bottom, the air intake. It looked longer to me."
Yes, here it is - "russian P-51A" ;)
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What about this one ?
(http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/aviation/ww2/russia/p51/p51-russian-picture1.jpg)
They got ten of them which were mostly involved in tests and not operational.
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Originally posted by -aper-
Grendel
I saw lots of reports from russian pilots who claimed they fought with He-113. It's not a prove that He-113 had ever been built.
P-51A had never been used by VVS.
I'd better believe that FAF pilots fought with LaGG-3's
Well, they were used. As already shown below even when it was first claimed SU never had any.
Also, those gents bloody well know what a Lagg-3 was.
Mr. Karhilas description of the enemy plane also does not fit LaGG-3 at all. A square rudder, straight wing tips, full metal construction which came apart under his cannon and machine gun fire giving him a perfect look and so on. He had time there to make mental notes and has great memory. From the plain description our Kossu thought "that is a P-51" when we chatted once with him, and further speaking only confirmed it. Which Soviet plane had square rudder, straight wing tips, radiator under fuselage, P-51A/B like canopy and was used against Finland in 1944? Most paperwork says that couldn't have been a P-51 - but it was. And Karhila's P-51 shootdowns were not the only ones.
Sorry, you don't know how perfectly all proof points to P-51. The only question is where the P51s exactly came from.
Same with P-38s. We are currently working on interview of mr. Hemmo Leino, who actually encountered P-38s over Karelian isthmus and was 100% definite about his identification. WHERE those came from and why they were dogfighting there, four P-38s versus two FAF Messerchmitts, with mr. Leino trying to climb to attack with wing cannoned 109 G6/R6 - but not having enough climbrate to reach the combat. Very interesting... He didn't have as perfect proof of mr. Karhila, but enough time to watch the combat and speak with his squadmates afterwards.
It is all very interesting :) New mysteries to dig into!
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Originally posted by -aper-
P-51A had never been used by VVS.
hey aper! did you see that nice pic posted by Butch? ;)
Buh-bye to the "the reds had no P51A" crowd ;)
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err RAM you've read Butch's post a bit too fast :D
They got ten of them which were mostly involved in tests and not operational.
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Originally posted by straffo
err RAM you've read Butch's post a bit too fast :D
I see a picture with a P51A with a red star on its side. Just some hours ago that was "impossible" because "the russians had no P51s at all"
Well, now they seem they had...so why should I ever think they WEREN'T used operationally?? Because I'm told so?.
Well, I also was told they had no P51s .It turns out they had :p.
So I do think the russkies had some P51As, and that they used them operationally, even more when there are people alive who talk about having shot down some of them. Now, you're free to believe whatever you want...
but so am I :)
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I know about the Finnish claims of shotting down some P-51, about 5 or 6 of them over a period of a couple of weeks during summer. But so far official Russian history do not mention that this aircraft have been used operationaly (while P-47 was).
I expect to know a bit more when i get a Russian book i ordered dealing with the US lend lease plane in Soviet use published a few month ago. I'll post an update as soon as i get the book.
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Originally posted by butch2k
I know about the Finnish claims of shotting down some P-51, about 5 or 6 of them over a period of a couple of weeks during summer. But so far official Russian history do not mention that this aircraft have been used operationaly (while P-47 was).
There certainly is some grey area. Not everything is written down. And misidentifications occurred also.
Hans Wind's P-38 shootdown was actually a Focke Wulf 189. (recon plane).
And:
"
On the other hand mr. Hemmo Leino has a P-51 in his kill list, but mr. Leino already argued back then with the squadron intelligence guy that it definitely was a Spitfire V and nothing else. "There are no SPitfires in this area" was the answer and it was recorded as P-51. But Spit it was.
"
One recorded P-51 was a Spitfire V. But note: INTELLIGENCE *was sure* there was P-51s operating in the area. Where that information came from? Radio intelligence? Through German spies? From captured Soviet pilots?
Soviets didnt write everything down. That's a fact. That makes modern day studies hard, if we don't have access to speak with people who were there.
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Butch2k
That one was tested in NII-VVS.
Grendel
If you believe in russian P-51 - it's up to you.
Still there are no information/evidences/documents from russian side that any of IAP was equiped with P-51s and there are no reports from russian pilots that they flew P-51s.
From the other hand there are lots of evidences how the pilots misrecognized for example FW-190s and La-5s inspite of square rudders etc etc...
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Yes i know the story of this aircraft and i also have some test data from the TSAGI.
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Appendix 2 of "Swastika in the Gunsight" by Soviet ace Igor Kaberov has a table taken from a 1979 Finnish book "Red Stars in the Sky" which claims to show 'the total number of Soviet wartime fighters produced in the Soviet Union or imported under the lend-lease agreement'. It lists no P-51s (it does list 5707 x P-39, 2400 x P-63, 2397 x P-40, 195 x P-47, 2952 x Hurricane & 1331 x Spitfire). According to this source there 17834 total lend-lease aircraft sent to the USSR, this accounts for 14982 of them. P-51s definitely did fly to and from the USSR, though, on shuttle bombing missions, but it think that by the time the shuttle bombing missions took place the Finns were fighting on the allied side. Maybe the pictured plane is an A-36 (which would have it classified as other than a fighter and explain it's missing from the aforementioned table)
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all of the pictures i've found of the A-36 show it w/ 3 bladed prop. Most of the pictures i've found of the P-51a show it w/ 4 bladed prop, but some show it w/ a 3 blade prop
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The aircraft is one of the British stang given to the Russian (there were ten of them), IIRC the british serial of this one is AM388 (do not quote me though).