Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sachs on June 04, 2002, 07:49:04 AM

Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Sachs on June 04, 2002, 07:49:04 AM
How is it some planes missing wingtips can RTb and others well do the nice roll/bounce into the carpet routine?  If a few can do it I say all the others can as well.  Any points on this matter?
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: FDutchmn on June 04, 2002, 07:53:27 AM
aerodynamics of the airframe?

well, I have seen photographs from WW2 where planes rtb with a whole wing missing.  probably depends on wing loading and aerodynamics of the airframe.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Ghosth on June 04, 2002, 08:23:02 AM
190's & LA7's fly fairly well on a missing wingtip if you keep it fast.Use Trim for level flight. Odds are 50/50 for a decent landing. Secret is to keep it fast as long as you can.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: 2Late4U on June 04, 2002, 08:32:50 AM
The 262 flys amazingly well with a missing wingtip.  Landing requires some adept side slipping, but is much easier than most planes.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: hazed- on June 04, 2002, 08:37:47 AM
lets not forget how easy the f4u and f6f and p47 are though eh?

why is it the 109 is uncontrolable?
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Don on June 04, 2002, 09:28:11 AM
I shot the wingtip off a 190 several days ago and the guy kept coming after me. He was on fire and I saw he had no wingtip to speak of;) I was waiting for him to auger but nope...he came after me again. He wasn't succesful and crashed soon after wards.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: funkedup on June 04, 2002, 09:41:27 AM
You lose part of the lift on one wing.  The way you counter it is by reducing lift on the other wing to compensate.  The lift reduction is accomplished by:

1.  Moving the aileron trailing-edge up.  

2.  Moving the rudder's trailing edge away from the missing wingtip.  Because of dihedral this will reduce lift on the intact wing.

If the aileron effectiveness, rudder effectiveness, and dihedral effect are sufficient to counter the lift of the missing wing, then you can still fly.  If one or more of those aerodynamic properties of the airframe are insufficient, then you will have to bail out.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: cajun on June 04, 2002, 01:23:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by FDutchmn
aerodynamics of the airframe?

well, I have seen photographs from WW2 where planes rtb with a whole wing missing.  probably depends on wing loading and aerodynamics of the airframe.


A WHOLE wing??? thats impossible, can you send me those pics I gotta see this!
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: cajun on June 04, 2002, 01:26:40 PM
BTW F4u-1 is very good when wingtip is missing, once I had like 2-3 zeros on my tail, got wingtip shot off but managed to outrun them and HO 1 with 20mms (f4u-1C) we both died but my plane was dead anyway :D
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Innominate on June 04, 2002, 01:33:50 PM
In many planes, when missing a wingtip, if you can manage to drop your flaps, the plane becomes much easier to control.  If you can get the flaps down, even the 109 can still fly.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Citabria on June 04, 2002, 01:49:46 PM
landing with no vert stab in twin engined planes is my new favorite damage challege :)
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Ripsnort on June 04, 2002, 02:26:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate
In many planes, when missing a wingtip, if you can manage to drop your flaps, the plane becomes much easier to control.  If you can get the flaps down, even the 109 can still fly.


Depends which model.  The 109E does NOT fly with a wingtip missing, flaps or not.  It will glide in a very steep uncontrollable glideslope, but once you run out of airspace, you have two choices, bail or die.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: wantok on June 04, 2002, 02:33:19 PM
well i always find that once i've had half of one wing shot off my niki, performance is degraded a bit :)  but as soon as i get the other one shot off, the plane's nice and stable.  landed several times with no probs after losing (half of) both wings...
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: AKSWulfe on June 04, 2002, 02:38:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
lets not forget how easy the f4u and f6f and p47 are though eh?

why is it the 109 is uncontrolable?


HiTech, Pyro- they're on to you!

Quick, burn all of "die uber Amerikan luftfahrzeug" documents!

Do it now before they find out about the conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/ruinkai/biglaugha.gif)
-SW
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: FDutchmn on June 04, 2002, 07:07:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by cajun

A WHOLE wing??? thats impossible, can you send me those pics I gotta see this!


Sure, but... forgive me if I can't find it, I recall seeing it when I was a kid (that was more than 25years ago).  I hope I can still find that book.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: MrLars on June 04, 2002, 07:34:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
190's & LA7's fly fairly well on a missing wingtip if you keep it fast.Use Trim for level flight. Odds are 50/50 for a decent landing. Secret is to keep it fast as long as you can.


Depends on what wing is damaged. An La7 with the starboard wing tip clipped is a biatch to fly while if the port wing tip is gone you still have a good chance of landing.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Durr on June 04, 2002, 09:29:40 PM
I am quite certain that no aircraft ever has been produced that can fly with a whole wing missing.  Many planes can fly with a pretty good chunk of one gone but not the whole thing.  In here its pretty easy to bring most planes back with tip missing if you get control as soon as you realize what has happened.  Trim full aileron and rudder against the direction the plane is trying to roll and if you in a two engine plane, chop throttle on the engine that is on the good wing and go full power on the engine on the crippled wing.  Dropping the flaps may or may not be a good idea.  In some planes, dropping the flaps may give you enough lift on the bad wing, so that you can continue in controlled flight.  Other planes need to be kept fast so that the control authority on the good wing is enough to keep the plane level.  Find power, and trim settings that allow you reasonable control then look for the nearest field.  Avoid changing speed and sudden moves if possible.  Set a shallow glideslope for the field far out, and fly it right to the ground without cutting power from that setting.  Once the wheels are on the deck chop power completely and use differential braking and rudder to keep the nose pointed straight.  Its pretty easy in many planes in here, others are quite impossible.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: FDutchmn on June 04, 2002, 10:09:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Durr
I am quite certain that no aircraft ever has been produced that can fly with a whole wing missing.  


as I said, I could be wrong here.  Old memories playing a role here for me.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Blue Mako on June 05, 2002, 12:09:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Durr
I am quite certain that no aircraft ever has been produced that can fly with a whole wing missing.  Many planes can fly with a pretty good chunk of one gone but not the whole thing.


Wrong.  The F-15 can and HAS done it.  Combination of very good aileron effectiveness, backup hydraulic systems and a very high landing speed allowed at least one F-15 to RTB and land with one WHOLE wing missing after a mid air collision.

As for WWII era aircraft, that's a different story.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Toad on June 05, 2002, 12:38:01 AM
Let us all remember that the visual of the "missing wingtip" is merely the display method for an unknown (to us) amount of damage computed by the damage model.

Or, what you see is not necessarily what you have as damage. We don't know the thresholds where parts of the visual model break off. Don't know if it's a finite value, a sliding scale, a weighted scale. Don't know a d*mn thing about how they do it, actually.

Don't think they're going to tell either.

Just a thought to keep in mind.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: Furious on June 05, 2002, 01:35:22 AM
a photo of the F-15 in BlueMako's post.
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: FDutchmn on June 05, 2002, 01:42:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
a photo of the F-15 in BlueMako's post.


wow
Title: Missing Wingtip question
Post by: gofaster on June 05, 2002, 08:16:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Blue Mako


Wrong.  The F-15 can and HAS done it.  Combination of very good aileron effectiveness, backup hydraulic systems and a very high landing speed allowed at least one F-15 to RTB and land with one WHOLE wing missing after a mid air collision.

As for WWII era aircraft, that's a different story.


And remember - jets have less torque than props.