Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on July 06, 2000, 12:01:00 PM
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I've been facing solo in upwards of 15 rooks at a time lately in the ma.
I wouldn't mind this except for the fact that icons give away my position at 5+ miles and all of them see me and come harass me.
similar problem with vehicles and airplanes.
not really fair to tank drivers to have no icons against enemy tanks, planes shouldnt get them at any range either.
the bottom line.
recreating feats of ww2 aces who took on whole flocks of enemy airplanes and not only survived but shot some down is impossible with the icons of aces high.
there is no question about who sees who first since the icons take the pilot out of that equation.
but let me say this again.
I will go solo against 15 rooks but its no surprise as to the most common outcome of them all seeing and attacking me.
sure icons are fine if your the guy with the numbers but what if your not.
can you dive to the deck and use yer camo? no
can you stay out of icon range and still be in the combat area? no
can you log off? yes
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Aye. There was an interview of a Japanes Ace I read a little while ago... and he says the same thing every pilot on every side of the conflict said: If you spot the enemy first, you have the advantage, even if the enemy has altitude advantage because if you spot them first, you determine how the battle will go.
I say AH should simply make the icons pop up when the plane is at 500 yards. I mean, if you dont see it by then its waay to late hehe.
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One thing about no icons is it will get rid of lone wolves. People will have to travel in packs, so they can say "contact sighted, grid sector blah blah blah any friendlies in the area?" and if there arent then they r enemy. But this goes against the whole point of the ma, the lone wolf, so it wont work. better for scenarios.
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Excellent point Citabria and I concur. But out of curiosity did you fly in the SEA a month or so ago when Udie organized those icon-less nights? I enjoyed them immensely for the white knuckle on the stick experience they were. But many did not due to the current state of computer graphics not being up to par - let alone being a simile for real life vision.
I'm hoping we get an HA arena some day that would allow us to fly in an iconless environment. It's fun, thrilling and an absolute challenge. I'm sure that scenarios will be very flexible on this subject and I am REALLY hoping that the current method of icons is relooked into someday. With translucent icons that get more or less opaque depending on range for instance.
-Westy
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I think it would be easy to find a middle ground. Icons at 2500...range at 1000 lets say. No icons under 2500 alt till range shows (just my suggestion). That would eliminate long range "auto-find" while providing reasonable info to compensate for visual issues based on monitor vs "real life" view.
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Agreed, Westy.
I also hope icons will continue to evolve. There have been some really excellent ideas proposed on this board that should be given a chance. There are things we could do to minimize icons while still providig the necessary information on a computer screen.
I love the idea of going totally no icons. I hope that is exactly where we end up. I just don't see current technology being able to support it.
Right now, "no icons" is mostly a "difficulty level" type of change that is almost unrelated to RL experiences in many ways.
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Must agree with Citabria - as a Rook I find myself frequently going against large numbers of Bishops solo - bad news for me if it is Pony Express (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). You can't just have no way of distinguishing friends and enemies though, since all aircraft types are available to all sides. I'd like to see icons reworked so that instead of the floating signs all aircraft had some prominent part or all of the airframe coloured to reflect their team orientation. This would only be for enemy aircraft, so as not to spoil the paintjobs on our favourite rides. This way you'd have to be close enough to see the other plane(s). No more diving from 5 miles away (which I do now myself), without being prepared to abort the run if its friendly. This would make formation teamwork more desirable, but still wouldn't rule out the lone wolf. An alternate plan would be to have a coloured dot appear over other aircraft at a modest range (probably easier to implement).
Both these schemes would promote an obsession with range estimation similar to that which the RL pilots had of necessity. Firing ranges would almost certainly drop under most circumstances, and there would be a rush to develope ranging gunsights. Most importantly it would be easier for the bold pilot to escape when things got hairy.
If radar was left as-is, there'd still be some means of getting a feel for where the concentrations of opponents were.
Fluf
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Lets admit it guys,
No icon MA arena is something that would never happen. If it will, lots of people would leave, including me. I don't mind flying from time to time with no icons, but when I'm in MA, all I want is some fun killing other fliers.
What I want to be gone, is inflight radar. Maybe just bars should stay, or maybe it should be updated something like once or twice every minute. Besides being more realistic, I'm sure it will somewhat free up HTC server, plus allow somewhat slower Internet connection on player's part.
mx22
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Agree with mx22. In the MA, I just want to find a fight. I've flown in the WB HA with restricted icons, and found that most people clustered around one or two bases, presumably so they could find a fight.
I think inflight radar is fine in the MA, it becomes and important strat target. I wouldn't mind seeing ranges more limited. Say, 15 miles for heavy buffs, 10 miles for medium buffs, and 5 miles for fighters. This would allow surprise jabo attacks, and force the heavies up high where they belong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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I recently met an old wingman from EF2000v2.0
that I'd met 5 years ago, and he is currently on his 2 wk trial period. He has stated that he gets ganged up on alot, my reply was that this game REQUIRES a wingman and Roger Wilco.
Lone Wolf tactics just ain't gonna make it in the MA.
In the words of Carl Malden:
"Wingmen, don't leave home without em."
Personally, if I had my way they'd ditch the radar, and use some other system, like "enemy reports", sorta like those Australian Coastal Watchers.
Seen like this:
A34 reports 5 enemy aircraft inbound from southeast, altitude approx from 25k to 10k
OR
A34 reports ground forces approaching from north, approx 5 miles away.
At any rate, radar gives away the fact that an enema is in a sector, and notifies everyone to keep thier head on a swivel looking for him.
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/davekirk/images/Mil.jpg)
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Here are a few saguestions...
We already have Icon option for No icon on Enemy and Icon on Freindly. The bad thing is its hard to tell if the other one is useing it.
I would like to see Radar of any kind gone and when a base is geting atacked have a freindly Notice on the Chat screen that says A1 geting atacked. Have No range on Icon just the Icon witch is red for bad guys. And have it only apear so far out. This needs to be in MA. Its turning into a qauke arena. You find bad guy and gangband till it is dead. There is no real life war in here because you know what is going on all the time no sneak attacks work. For those that like to just somtimes get on and find a a qwick kill let us set up a Three base fighter town per say. Its like flying a Jet fighter with missles and such...I fly a old war plane set because i like the chalange of it.
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VMF-212 Lancers
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Originally posted by mx22:
Lets admit it guys,
What I want to be gone, is inflight radar. Maybe just bars should stay, or maybe it should be updated something like once or twice every minute. Besides being more realistic, I'm sure it will somewhat free up HTC server, plus allow somewhat slower Internet connection on player's part.
mx22
Umm... wasn't WW2 radar only able to tell vector and altitude (numbers was a bit difficult)? I think the radar now is very realistic...billboards however, are not.
Playability would be GREATLY increased by no billboards IMHO... it would make you communicate with players, watch the radar and immerse you more in the simulation.
The matter of distinguishing what team the other plane is on is a different matter... it could be fixed by putting the billboards to be activated at 500 yards OR making 2 schemes for each plane, one with a green or blue or white stripe on the wings or nose or something to show it is friendly, and one with red stripes to show it is an enemy player. This would be cool, as you would only be able to tell once you get close or by radio contact...just like in real life!
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I'd like to see a 2 country MA. One side having access to Allied aircraft and vehicles and the other to Axis aircraft and vehicles. This would require the T-34, Wirblewind, a German Half-Track, Ju52 H8K2 "Emily" or He177 or 277 to be added so that both sides would have a set that included at least one tank, ground transport, air transport and heavy bomber as well as the already implemented fighters.
With this setup, the vehicle sets would look as follows:
Allied
Fighters:
P-38L (American)
P-47D-30 (American)
P-51D (American)
F4U-1A (American)
F4U-1C (American)
La5N (Russian)
Yak9U (Russian)
Typhoon (British)
Spitfire MkVb (British)
Spitfire MkIX (British)
Medium Bombers:
B-26 (American)
Heavy Bombers:
B-17G (American)
Lancaster (British)
Armored Vehicles:
T-34/76 (Russian)
M-16 (American)
Transports:
C-47 (American)
Half-Track (American) {Don't know the model number off hand}
Axis
Fighters:
Bf109F (German)
Bf109G-6 (German)
Bf109G-10 (German)
Fw190A-5 (German)
Fw190A-8 (German)
N1K2 (Japanese)
A6M5b (Japanese)
C.202 (Italian)
C.205 (Italian)
Bf109G-2 (Finnish)
Medium Bombers:
Ju88 (German)
Heavy Bombers:
H8K2 (Japanese)
He177 (German)
Armored Vehicles:
Panzer IV (German)
Wirblewind (German)
Transports:
Ju52 (German)
Half-Track (German) {Don't know the model number off hand}
I think that there are aircraft on each side that can counter those on the other side. Each side would have its lame ducks, e.g. Spitfire MkVb and C.202, as well as its ubėr-planes, e.g. Fw190A-5 and F4U-1C. HTC could then add new units in a balanced way so that one side would be able to counter the other.
Icons could be dealt away with because a visual ID of the aircraft would reveal it to be friend or foe.
Thats what I'd like to see anyway.
Sisu
-Karnak
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A short item to add to this debate.
Recently I was bombing an airfield and was setting in the tail gun pos after my run waiting to time my turn when suddenly tracer fire started to come from my direct 6. (Earlier I had been fooling around with icon setting and had not got the enemy icon back on.) I could not see the con at all, it was a N1K and blended into the ground clutter well. Only after I hit full zoom was I able to id the con and start shooting. Now the question that I asked myself was, Did I not see the con because I couldnt see him or did I not see the con because I was not looking for him relying on the icons to keep my SA.
If the con had held his fire or had the no tracer option on he could have killed me at close range without me even seeing him.
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JG 2's current cannon magnet
Milo
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Rgr thaq milo.. I tried to get my squaddies to look for movement; not billboards when we went into the SEA.
Even then; without 'zoom' it was impossible to determine the attitude and angle of the enemy.. if you ever saw him at all. Take yer eyes off him for a split second to check the dash; arm guns; dump tanks; whatever.. when you looked back; he was 'gone'.
A PC screen just can't do it.. not without increasing detail and resoulution to a point that kills frame rates entirely... and maybe not even then. The technology is just not 'there' yet.. maybe someday soon; but not now; not in AH.. Icons off in THIS sim is just not workable as it stands IMHO.
Hang
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I think they should make turning off the icons mandatory, when you join a squad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well, why not simply have the icons be visible at 1000 yards or 500 yards? That would make up for the "pc" graphics problem.
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Another Icon post full of great ideas.
Sitting here reading the board too tired to play after a hard day at work again, and I come across another "Icon" post. One of those topics that comes around every couple of months since ive started playing online sims.
I have only expirenced AH, DOA, and WB and its been pretty much the same for the Main Arena since WB1.10 for me. I would have to assume this is the norm for most sims, and is what most are accustomed too. Can AH or any sim afford to mess with this system without replacing what is being lost due to graphics? Are graphics or resolutions better or higher than 3 or 4 years ago? Yeah, and its probably time to make some adjustments to the current system that we have used for so long.
On the other hand, maybe it has nothing to do with how well we see, but rather how intense it could be, causing less sorties due to fatigue. Which leaves me less guys to kill which leaves me bored.
Well, guess I need 2 Arenas!
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Actually, what I think would be interesting is if ICONS disappeared `below' 1k range from aircraft (Thats range, not altitude). We have gunsites available to determine proper shooting distance. Whether or not HTC can make them adjust so that convergence matches gunsites or not, I dont know.
I personally prefer the no icon or friendly icons only type events, but that won't fly in the MA. I also liked AH in the beta when DAR only showed how many enemy were in a grid, but not where. I think AH was much more fun back then, in terms of strategy, because you had to use the radio to convey position.
Anyway, if Icons would disappear below 1k range, I think that would make the fighting much more intense. Just my two cents.
(http://www.devildogs.com/vmf111/sdsig2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 07-06-2000).]
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I really like Milnko's idea of status reports rather than in flight radar.
I also see the need for there to be allowances for two dimensional computer monitors- but isn't that what the 3d cockpit and zoom feature are? Unlike Warbirds, I can see around my headrest and over the side of my plane and I can zoom in to scan for enemies. So why do we still have icons?
Every time there is an icon post there are scores of replies attacking the present system so why don't we at least experiment with some of these excellent ideas? I like icons growing more opaque the closer you are. I like icons showing up much closer. I like no icons and bigger planes. I like plane paint schemes reflecting friend or foe. Let's just try SOMETHING.
WWII Online claims to be a two sided affair with no icons. Those two things alone pique my interest. I really love Aces High, the community, and espescially the company size because they are able to and do listen to the community and make changes based on customer concerns. Let's see some experimentation on these issues.
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RUST
(http://home.earthlink.net/~rocketace/_uimages/rustsbucketp38small.jpg)
[This message has been edited by ezrust (edited 07-06-2000).]
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EZ,
Agreed!
I think we presntly need some sort of icon IFF.
I also think the present system could be improved by making it "less". We don't need all they're giving us.
We do need to experiment. I hope and believe that it's going to happen.
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Well, the way I see it, all this "realism" and all the work put in to make this sim as realistic as possible is completely wasted if the icons are up.
I mean, heck, if I got alt advantage, I dont want the other dope to simply scan around.. OH THERES A BIG RED BILLBOARD!. Black dots are WAY easy to spot as it is. I dont need a billboard screaming my presence. The ZOOM feature is the equivalent of the pilot having a pair of binoculars, so ZOOM and see.
Billboards should appear at 2k range or less ONLY. If you have not spotted the guy that's jumping you by then, chances are you are dead anyway.
Today I was supporting CavemanJ's Panzer on an assault on a base. There was a red panzer somewhere killing my guys. It took some time and effort to find the tank. Coordinating with Cave and other panzers to locate the target. And there it was, when I got near it, the billboard popped up! THAT is EXACTLY what this game needs for the airplanes.
If you jump a friendly.. well, you will see his billboard at 2k rage or less.. what better IFF than that?
Right now, pilots depend TOO much on those billboards.. heck the whole thing is based on them. High dot, 8k range, red.. oooh id better avoid it... low dot, red, 5k below... engage.
I say, try no icons (or icons to appear when at 2k or less) for one week. Just ONE week. I believe we will see a LOT of change in combat strategy.
Got the guts to try it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Information:long distance(starting at 10k), red dot 4 nme, green dot for friend.
Close range(4500) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)nly a range,don't care what country or what plane, just need its range within the 4500 yd radius of me.
Just basic info. I think I use the billboards too much as it is. Seems I only look for the plane when it's time to pull the trigger!! I think I should be watching the plane at all times. Currently your eye is drawn to the icon not the plane.