Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on June 07, 2002, 03:29:02 AM
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Yesterday I decided to do some experiments in MA flying 190D9:
1 - With a slow N1K2 at my six (2000 yards) I decided to zoom in vertical. I saw the N1K2 aproaching very slowly in the vertical, at 800 yards the closure rate was almost 0 and I decided to keep vertical (while it was a suicide) and see what the N1K2 was going to do. I just hammered and dive nose down towards him, both crossed in the air guns cold but he was still nose up at the cross and he kept nose up after the cross. I saw no yawing effect on that N1K2, he leveled smoothly inverted and went away.
2 - I repeat that move later against another N1K2. This time I got shotdown after reversing, but the effect in the vertical was the same than case 1.
3 - At sea level a Spit dived on me, I was doing my top speed with wep at this altitude. The spit aproached fast till 500 yards, I just keep looking at my six for several seconds until I saw the first tracers, then a slight roll to the left and then to the right, spit was at 450 yards, still aproaching. Then, suddenly, closure rate inverted very fast, now I was gaining distance with the spit still at my six at 600, 650, 700 yards (I was all the time about 350mph). It seems to me that drag decceleration is whatever but linear with the spit.
4 - The past week I HOed a F6F flying 110G2, F6F was shot down but I lost all of my guns except one 151/20. I was surprised cause that alone gun had the same ROF as the root wing mounted ones of the 190s, and these are synchronized. 110G2 nose 20mm guns should have same ROF as the 109G10 one, AFAIK 110G2 nose guns are not synchronized. With all the guns, the effect is like firing with a single unsynchronized gun with very hi ROF, like if one gun fires just after the other generating a continuous bullet stream.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Yesterday I decided to do some experiments in MA flying 190D9:
So you are no longer testing the N1K2's performance by watching it from the tower? Very interesting, I look forward to further refinement of your evaluation techniques.
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You made films?
AKDejaVu
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Oh just go get a G10 and some taters. Experiment the confetti peice count vs. shells expended.
Much more fun.
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You're on the right track, Mandoble. When faced with the absence of fact, evidence, or anything beyond hyperbolic and biased evaluations of reality, just keep posting ad nauseum.
Sooner or later you will break the collective will to resist you, and everyone will fall in line.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I saw a 190 start in the hangar and immediately climb vertical to 20k to kill a lanc before diving straight down on a m3 without any compression at 950 mph before going back up to 30k.
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Mandoble:
A couple of suggestions:
[list=1]
- If you are serious about it you should post aircraft performance/flight model topics in the Aircraft and Vehicles Forum of the UBB.
- I hate to break the news to you but your tests are laughable from a flight performance evaluation perspective. If you are serious about testing then you need to do better than this. You can post a question in the Aircraft and Vehicles Forum on appropriate ways to test for the performance characteristic you are interested in.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Fatty
I saw a 190 start in the hangar and immediately climb vertical to 20k to kill a lanc before diving straight down on a m3 without any compression at 950 mph before going back up to 30k.
EHEH :)
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Originally posted by dtango
Mandoble:
A couple of suggestions:
If you are serious about it you should post aircraft performance/flight model topics in the Aircraft and Vehicles Forum of the UBB.
But a Mandoble Post in the Aircraft/Vehicles forum will only go 2 pages before it runs out of steam. In the general forum, it can get up to 5-6 pages! I think its some kind of Martyr thing.
-Sikboy
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This has gotten comical in a Monty Python kind of way. He's much like the guy who pays for an argument and also gets free "getting hit over the head" lessons. Then again I'm also reminded of the kerchief covered Gumby type.
Westy
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What I posted is not a critic about UFOness or whatever, but a curious effect that may be in favour or against spit performance.
A general question for spit drivers, and I'm not asking for films with the replies. Do you feel the effect I described? You are aproaching slowly to your target after diving a bit and then, after 10 - 20 seconds of level flight, suddenly, your speed drops drastically (not smoothly).
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Once again.. you made films?
The point is.. you can describe events all you want, but there is nothing to say that what you describe is accurate. If you intentionally decided to "do some tests" then you'd better film it before starting a thread like this.
Otherwise... you end up just sounding like... well... you.
AKDejaVu
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wow you guys really have some weird fricking issues. Have you all thought about psychiatric help? Perhaps you got beat up a little too often as kids. Mom and Dad never gave you enough sweet lovn? Your lack of self-esteem is truly awe inspiring.
Interesting observations. I have noticed that in the spit, but I recall seeing tests done by 'somebody' and published here on the deceleration values of many favorite planes. The spit slows faster than any other bird (and I like it that way!). Makes 109s piss themselves when they try scissors. It is such a sleek design I find it suprising, but maybe it has to do with the big banana wings.
As far as the nik behavior, since we havent seen a pto in ages in the CT, i have not noticed this.
p.s.
ww2pilot coming back from a sortie over the pacific:
Man, this niki got on my arse and just kept climbing! There was nothing I could do but dive and run.
our friends that posted earlier:
I dont believe a word of it! you call that scientific! I want a film, I want methods! I want replication! I wont listen to a word until than you big stinking liar! (sticks thumb back into mouth and starts to cry)
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In experi-mental stage, certainly film it. That's what you doing, gathering BBS post ammo. So just do it.
I had a clever P-47 BnZ test going and a LA-7 lofted up into me and cut me in half. I was torn between if I'm so bad at observing E states in a plane I never fly, or if the LA-7 was that great at 9K like it was supposed to be, or if the whole thing was the groundbreaking proof it's the new N1K2 pork FM.
Thing is, in WINXP I am having a time just having views with limited DirectX key’s recognition, let alone my trusty throttle hat trim setup so was flying combat trim, and I certainly ain’t filming with that big green tard light shinin’. (btw, CT sucks, I keep compressing to death, I’ll smack the keyboard, no Saitek throttle trim switch or not)
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Don't airplanes ailerons still produce an effect in the game even when the speed is relatively low?
Those things were the first to go, I dunno at what speeds- but I think that's the cause for the "N1K2 hovered and killed me" syndrome.
-SW
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Let me see ... Mzuma/Sikboy (are the same person? at least same IQ), DMF, Djavu .... ....mmmm ..... where is Kieran????
dtango, agree about the forum. In any case it was not a scientific experiment, just an online perception, cause that I dindt post the cases like facts but like how they felt for me.
The case of the 110G2 is different, it was not an IMO, it was a fact, and sorry no film. And it is going to be posted inmediatelly in the GPlay forum.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Let me see ... Mzuma/Sikboy (are the same person? at least same IQ), DMF, Djavu .... ....mmmm ..... where is Kieran????
If everyone who questions your motive, judgement, and ability to reason were the same person, we'd have one hell of a cloning problem on our hands.
-Sikboy
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Mandoble, I'm trying not to get sucked into another one of your threads. You think what you think, I think what I think, how 'bout you leave me out of it?
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
A general question for spit drivers, and I'm not asking for films with the replies. Do you feel the effect I described? You are aproaching slowly to your target after diving a bit and then, after 10 - 20 seconds of level flight, suddenly, your speed drops drastically (not smoothly).
No, I do not. Not in the Spit V at any rate. It's usually a pretty constant deceleration after leveling off, at least in terms of watching the range counter on who I'm attempting to chase down.
Was it a true dead six situation of him coming in on you? Did the spit roll with you at all?
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Lesson learned: Do not start a thread like this one without a film.
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Yep, true dead six, Spit didnt rolled with me, he opened fire and I just rolled a bit left and then a bit right, after that the spit kept guns cold for few seconds and then the decceleration effect and some desperate spray'n pray at more than 1000 yards.
It is just one example, but this is what I mostly perceive every time a spit dives on my six: closer, closer, closer and then the noticeable decceleration.
Same situation against other planes usually ends in a slow (smooth) gain or lose of distance along the time.
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=S=
I recognized the effect alot to when some poor spit drivers try to chase my D9.
The keep with me a little bit and then they fall back from 450 to over 1k inna couple seconds.
What i learned about roll like hell ull get rit of them in couple sec :D
But before i read this i didnt spend a minute to think about it.
Just leave it like it is. I can outrun them all still :)
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Suicide is Painless
(Theme from M*A*S*H*)
Through early morning fog I see,
Visions of the things to be,
The pains that are withheld for me,
I realize and I can see...
[REFRAIN]:
That suicide is painless.
It brings on many changes.
And I can take or leave it if I please.
I try to find a way to make,
All our little joys relate,
Without that ever-present hate,
But now I know that it's too late, and...
[REFRAIN]
The game of life is hard to play,
I'm gonna lose it anyway.
The losing card I'll someday lay,
So this is all I have to say.
[REFRAIN]
The only way to win is cheat,
And lay it down before I'm beat,
And to another give my seat,
For that's the only painless feat.
[REFRAIN]
The sword of time will pierce our skins.
It doesn't hurt when it begins.
But as it works its way on in,
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...
[REFRAIN]
A brave man once requested me,
to answer questions that are key.
Is it to be or not to be?
And I replied 'Oh why ask me?'
[REFRAIN]
'Cause suicide is painless.
It brings on many changes.
And I can take or leave it if I please.
...And you can do the same thing if you choose.
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The effect with the spit just just lag.
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this is what Toad was trying to say. :)
Whining here is Painful
(Theme from A*H*G*F)
Through early morning posts I see,
Fantasies of things as they ought to be,
The flames that are withheld for me,
I don't realize and I can't see...
[REFRAIN]:
That whining here is painful.
It should make me feel so shameful.
And I must beat and believe it, if it's cheese.
I try to find a way to prove,
All the BS ways that nikis move,
With that ever-present UFO groove,
But now I know that i'm a doof, and...
[REFRAIN]
The game of smack is hard to play,
I'm gonna lose it anyway.
Back in the forum I'll try to bray,
But this is all I have to post today.
[REFRAIN]
The only way to win is to try and gang,
And use some Luftweenie, sturm un drang,
And no one still gives a a dang,
For that's the only drum to bang.
[REFRAIN]
The facts they know, won't pierce my skull.
It doesn't hurt because it's bull.
But as the circle rotates to full,
The posts grow longer...until a lull, but...
[REFRAIN]
A spitwit once requested me,
to answer questions that are key.
Is it to be or not to be?
And I replied 'I'm glad you asked me!'
[REFRAIN]
'Cause whining here is painful.
It should make me feel so shameful.
And I must beat and believe it, if it's cheese.
...And you can do the same thing if you please.
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MANDOBLE:
What is your purpose for posting your perceptions on N1K2 and Spitfire performance? My advice is to avoid a/c performance discussions based on perception because aerodynamics is not a subjective topic.
On Spitifre deceleration - there should be no surprise that this is the case in the general situation described. The Spitfire is transitioning from an accelerated climb/dive state of motion to a level-flight state. If we look at the Spitfire IX AH charts for instance, top-end speed at 5k for instance is around 330-340MPH. Look at the 190D-9 and at 5k top-end speed is around 360-380MPH. Form drag is directly proportional to the square of the velocity. This is the drag force acting upon the Spitfire transitioning from a dive to level-flight to slow it down. Given it's level flight characteristics there should be no surprise at the deceleration.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I really dont see why you guys have such issues with someone mentioning something they notice in the GAME. It is really no different than acm discussions. If niks have a habit of helicoptering, whether it is illogical, proven, or just somebodies opinion, I dont mind hearing about it. If I try to rope a nik in the future, I am glad I have been alerted to this. Film, no film, whether some one blathers on about square roots of pigeon shat or not.
If they dont helicopter, great, but when i go into a climb and I notice behavior such as mandoble mentions, at least I wont be suprised. No harm done.
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MANDOBLE,
I don't know that it feels like the Spit decelerates unevenly, but it certainly does decererate rapidly. The N1K2 and F6F seem to suffer from this as well. Even though the Mosquito is only a little bit faster down low, it can easily escape by diving from one of those three and then leveling as the Mossie's deceleration is much slower. I hear the P-38L can do much the same as the Mossie, but I have doubts about the Bf110G-2. The only 110 I have seen while flying the Mossie that I did kill (hey, it was accompanied by a 10+ assortment of other cons) I escaped from in a similar manner.
The rapid deceleration is a weakness of Spits. To be used properly they shouldn't dive to speed and then level for a chase. They should dive to speed and if the target escapes immediately zoom climb back up to convert the speed back into altitude instead of throwing it away.
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You lost a head-on in a 110G-2?
Hahahahaha...
There is nothing wrong with those planes, you simply suck.
Get a really good pilot to be the test pilot in your tests.
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The past week I HOed a F6F flying 110G2, F6F was shot down but I lost all of my guns except
one 151/20. I was surprised cause that alone gun had the same ROF as the root wing mounted
ones of the 190s, and these are synchronized. 110G2 nose 20mm guns should have same ROF as
the 109G10 one, AFAIK 110G2 nose guns are not synchronized. With all the guns, the effect is
like firing with a single unsynchronized gun with very hi ROF, like if one gun fires just after the
other generating a continuous bullet stream.
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Re: Spit deceleration
Nothing about airplanes (or the world in general) is linear. Anybody who tells you something is linear is making an approximation.
Planes will slow down in level flight when they are above their maximum level speed. The higher the speed, the greater the deceleration. If a Spit 9 dives to 400 mph and levels out on the deck, it's 80 mph over its level top speed and will slow down very quickly.
And if you were in a Dora on the deck with WEP on, your top speed is about 380. So if you started at about 350 and the Spit started at 400, the Spit would slow down drastically while you would speed up gradually. This would make the Spit get closer at first and then fall back at a faster and faster rate until you both reached your equilibrium (maximum sustained) level speeds.
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I think you got the grand prize funkedup. That makes plenty of sense.
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Its all about Machismo, ego. Pilot A thinks he's damn good. Meets Pilot B. Pilot B shoots down Pilot A. Pilot A never heard of Pilot B, so Pilot A blames the fact that he was shot down due to aircraft performance not the skill of Pilot B. Pilot A comes and spouts out on the BBS justifying (and glorifying in some cases) his ego problem.
Some guys just have too big of ego to fit in a bubble canopy.(Don't ya just hate mirrors? ;) )
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Animal, the F6F was vaporised, a second F6F was also shotdown, but I was firing only with a single 151/20, then I noticed the ROF.
Si lo entiendes mejor en español (lo dudo), avisa y te lo traduzco.
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FunkedUp,
I think its a bit more complex than that, but that is basically correct.
As an example of a bit more complex, the N1K2-J and Mosquito Mk VI have very nearly the same top WEP speed on the deck (336mph for the N1K2 and 338mph for the Mossie), yet the Mosquito holds its speed longer than does the N1K2 due to its superior aerodynamics. At least that's what I think happens.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Animal, the F6F was vaporised, a second F6F was also shotdown, but I was firing only with a single 151/20, then I noticed the ROF.
Si lo entiendes mejor en español (lo dudo), avisa y te lo traduzco.
No I get it, didnt read well, but still, there is no excuses doing head on with that plane. You should always win against any plane.
It simply has the best firepower in the sim.
No arguing over the hispanos or .50
110G-2 owns any plane on the head on, simply aim at their general direction at 700 yards and pull the trigger for four seconds.
Anyways its moot, as I dont see how the head-on thing has anything to do with the nik and spit thing, other than some obscure reference to the allied-conspiracy.
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ergRTC:
I beg to differ. This is not like a discussion on BFM. Relative aircraft performance discussions are an objective topic and should be treated as such and with care. Take for instance some comments I've seen in the recent past- one person says plane x is a good turner while another says plane x is a bad turner. Without any objectivity the discussion turns into a debate that ends up full of myths and half-truths that only serve to confuse the AH community.
Discussions relating to a/c performance based on perceptions usually lead to myths, half-truths, and un-truths. This helps no one and hurts the entire AH community. It hurts the credibility of HTC in marketing to the sim community. It hurts us in AH trying to learn and improve because we base our lessons on myths. Care must be taken on the topic.
Funked:
Nice summation on Spit decelaration. You explained my technical gibberish in understandable english.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I dont buy it for a moment. There is no reason why a player should not be able to mention things they notice in the game, whatever they are. Mandobles comments were simply on some things he had observed while flying. He was careful not to make any whines are accusations about anything. I think some of you are attaching baggage to his comments. This is general discussions, i think his comments are perfectly reasonable and interesting.
I am also interested in why no one has attempted to explain the synchs in the 110. The only comments on that so far is some x-files comment. Now that is something I am curious about as well. I remember the power the ki had when its cannons could empty in a blink. If the 110g is not getting an accurate rate of fire that should be looked at. If its rof should actually be higher (that is what i get from the post) imagine the ho power..........
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Karnak
Mass is important too. When you are at speeds way over the equilibrium speed for the current altitude, drag is way bigger than thrust for a prop plane. So it's basically a fight between drag and inertia. If two planes have the same drag and thrust, the heavier one will hold its speed longer.
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Because ergRTC simply doing a small offline test would show that the ROF on the 110g is the same as the g10 center cannon, both of which significantly faster than the 190d9's.
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---I lost all of my guns except
one 151/20. I was surprised cause that alone gun had the same ROF as the root wing mounted
ones of the 190s, and these are synchronized. 110G2 nose 20mm guns should have same ROF as
the 109G10 one, AFAIK 110G2 nose guns are not synchronized. With all the guns, the effect is
like firing with a single unsynchronized gun with very hi ROF, like if one gun fires just after the
other generating a continuous bullet stream.---
How did you get rid of your other guns during the test?
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ergRTC,
He did a HO with an F6F-5. The F6F-5 kindly removed all his guns except the single MG151/20 before being blown to bits.
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I just fired the pair of 20mm for 1 minute, then took the expended ammo and divided it in half. Then repeated with the 4x20mm setup. Then did the 109g10, then the 190d9. The g10 and 110g 151/20 fired at 702 rounds per minute (both in the 2x20 and 4x20 setup for the 110g-2) while the d9 came in at 632.
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ergRTC:
Any player is free to make whatever comments they want to make. When a player makes subjective comments on objective topics then they are inviting themselves to critique regarding objectivity.
I never said nor implied Mandoble was whining. I merely stated that his attempt at aircraft comparisons is meaningless.
What conclusion is Mandoble making about the N1K2 vs 190D9? Obviously he attempted to make some comparison between the two and left it open for anyone to make a conclusion. Comparisons are best done objectively. When they aren't you end up with meaningless comparisons and conclusions such as in this case.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I dont know, I just found out that the 110 rof was the same as the g10, and that great little bit about deceleration. I found out a quick and easy way to check rate of fire. And got to watch a couple of you guys get all huffy and upset for no particular reason......... Seems like a good post to me......
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Ironic erg.. the only one that got the least bit huffy in this thread was you.
BTW.. if you're implying that threads like this are good for learning about AH you are sorely mistaken. The arenas are the best place to learn about AH. Here you just get subjective oppinion.
AKDejaVu
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I fly in the ct, and I learn plenty. I am wise enough to realize that my perceptions may not be the same as others though, and enjoy hearing what they have found.
As far as irony, somebody needs to go back and read the posts again...........
That is the reason i stopped only reading and posted my 1st satiric (never promised good satire) message. You and others choose to attack mandoble rather than ignore and move on, I just pointed out how silly this is. Some offered very good responses others behave as children.
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erg:
I'm not sure how you can call it silly to ask someone to take their posts seriously. If someone wants to make an comparison between aircraft then it deserves a serious attempt at comparison.
2ndly, the way Mandoble had posted he invited criticism with the lack of seriousness in his thread by (a) making observations with little or no attempt at asking a question or making a clear point and (b) a lack of rigor that would be involved with a serious discourse.
3rdly AKDJV is right. Threads like these are poor examples of learning. This one was salvaged by others who took the attempt to salvage what they could from the thread. The thread survived in spite of the poor way it was started.
4thly because I have given criticism, please don't mistake this as an attack on Mandoble. It may have been blunt criticism I gave but I'm only asking him to take comparison threads seriously. Besides, I've offered to buy him a beer at the con in a different thread altogether ;). Mandoble is a Rook and a fellow countryman of mine. His services are much needed in purging the skies of the bish and knit hordes ;).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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cc dtango well stated.
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ergRTC, even a single gun un a 110 is enough to kill bishes ;)
mmm aren't these above bishes?? :D