Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Qnm on June 08, 2002, 01:13:53 AM
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A friend of mine needs some advice from a police officer.
Any suggestions?
Ok, to sum it up. Last Sat an officer in uniform approached me in a parking lot full of riders (80 - 100) and asked to ride my bike. He took off like he was trying to get a hole shot and went straight into a curb, down into a ditch(with a 30ft skidmark before hitting)... totalling it. He supposedly wasnt "on duty" , but doing detail work hired by a bar/resturant. Now, my question to you is: Is the county sherrifs office liable?!
heres a few things ...
1. i know for a fact that if he was injured, workmans comp would pay.
2. The Sherrifs office is making money also with him being hired by a private party.
3. If he is in uniform, with his cruiser, he represents the Sherrifs office.
4. Since he is in uniform, representing the sherrifs office, he still has the power to write tickets, uphold the law.
I want to get the facts together when i see the attorney Monday. He used to represent the Sherrifs office as an attorney, so he knows who to contact, all the ins and outs. BUT, he didnt make me feel very confident when he said this is going to be a tough one. Now, i want any officers on here who give advice to know, i dont want this guys job... i'm not out to get him in trouble, although im sure he will, i realise he's a good guy who just made a mistake. im not looking to make any money, i just want my bike replaced the way i had it, as it was only a month old. This is my best way to go, ive explored every other way, but they left me out of pocket or increased insurance rates.
Thanks for any help.
Thanks in advance.
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I can't imagine an officer in uniform doing something like this.. where did this happen? was this in the US? a big city? or some po-dunk BFE town? for one thing, an officer knows that when he is in uniform, on duty or not, he is representing his agency. So it would be galactically stupid to do something like this.. I'd say to double check your facts to make sure it wasn't a security guard or some rent-a-cop type. I'm not saying it didn't happen the way you said, its just that it seems to me that something is missing.
I'm not a cop, but I work for a police department
my .02
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Well if you work for one you should know that there's alot of block heads out there in uniform.
:)
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No Hawk, this really happened.
What would you do in his place?
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Only a complete moron would ride someones bike in those circumstances whilst on duty. I find the story a little hard to believe myself. The job has its share of morons. God knows ive worked with a few. Cops are like everybody else.
As well as this alleged cop being a moron, your friend (no offence) sounds like one to. I also ride a bike and noone rides mine but me. Certainly no stranger no matter what his/her occupation.
I dont work in the states but I speak to a few who do occassionally through the net. Cops are pretty much the same all over the western world. The jobs the same, the legislation differs.
What you have there is a Road Accident. Plain and simple. You friend should lodge it like any other. Here in Australia we use a tick n flick form at the Station counter. Both parties share licence details and the Insurance companies sort it out.
If you friend doesnt have insurance, its a case of tough titties or civil litigation in a small claims court.
First, regardless of how good your friend is to you or how long youve known him, everyone in this world from white collar to blue tends to stretch the truth a little where a Cop is involved. He better make sure he has his story straight as I understand that in some parts of the States, the Officer can launch his own civil litigation in the case of a false complaint. Unlike here, where we have to cop it on the chin (no pun intended).
That being said, as stated previously, we have our share of the idiot pool to. The cop is responsible for a single vehicle road accident and liable for damages through insurance.
Sh*t happens. A million idiots a day have minor prangs and thats all that your friends bike was involved in. Get him to contact the officer and exchange details.
Of course, if you friend is a bikee, covered in tatts with a long dirty beard and half his prettythang hanging out of his pants, he deserves it anyway :)
LOL.
Im a biker so before anyone gets upset. We arent all like that :)
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.Three other officers are witness to it.
Simply replacing the bike and its mods anew would cost 13,500$, a professional repair would be ~9,600$ labour+parts, and going the way of his insurance (both his and the cop's (he rides an R1 himself) insurance agree my friend's ins. is the one responsible) means rate increase and three years probation.
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Hmmm.....well if a rozzer came up to me and asked to ride my bike he'd get laughed at and told to bugger off (I'm fully legal, not even a loud pipe).
(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
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And further.....
my incredibly intelligent fiancee just said: write to his senior officer and contact the press. The police hate bad press so if this is as crappy as it sounds the local press will be all over it.
(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
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Most people are suggesting this.
Thanks Swoop.
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Yeah Swoop great idea. Write into his senior Officer and get the bloke in strife all over an idiot decision to lend him the bike and his idiot decision to ask for it. Forget this bloke may be called to place his life on the line to save yours or your "intelligent" girlfriend. Forget the BS he has to put up with on a daily basis from lifes a-holes to ensure your day is a happy one and peace free. Most cops go into the job wanting to make a difference and to put some emphasis on their own lives so that one day they can look back and think they didnt waste it all, pi$$ing it up against a wall or climbing the corporate ladder stepping on other peoples toes. It takes about 4 years on average before a Cop starts getting cynical about why he/she chose the job they did. In 6-10, most have left the Force as people like your "Intelligent" girlfriend prefer to screw them rather than use plain ordinary God given common sense. At 10 years and over, those of us who remain rarely give 2 hoots what your problems are as you all start to sound the same. Throw in people like Swoops "intelligent" girlfriend and you see why the Cop who has you by the short and curlys on the side of the road, doesnt really give a damn why you were speeding, or how hard you have it in life that you had to take that item without payment.
Its a simple Road accident. Not Murder 1. Your friend is insured and he's just as responsible for it happening as the Cop was. Why did he get insurance in the first place?
Tell your friend that a Cop in Australia thinks he should start acting like a man instead of some pansy wuss out to screw some bloke over a simple irrelevant prang cause the easiest thing to do is threaten his livelihood.
Fill in the insurance papers. Speak to the Cop in person, not act like a Big girls blouse or some hissy fitting female and start taking some responsiblity for his own stupity.
Im sure, that if your friend does things the right way instead of that shi**y way described above, he will get what he wants or a satisfactory result without having to screw some bloke out of a job that you yourself wouldnt want on a good day.
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This is impolite, but it'll be the only time I do it.
When I read the agressive tone of what is suposed to be advice, I want to skip the entire post. You would do the same, the same way I skipped the part of your earlier post that was useless since all it did was say "I don't believe it - show proof - your friend's an idiot etc" in a few different ways.
Now on the subject.
[correction btw, the cop owns a 929 , not R1]
I am a bit tired so bear with my defective memory and therefore obligation to do this the long way (you asked for it):
Yeah Swoop great idea. Write into his senior Officer and get the bloke in strife all over an idiot decision to lend him the bike and his idiot decision to ask for it.
It's an idiot decision to lend the bike, even considering the cops were making rounds for supposed stolen parts etc at this 80+ riders' meet, but incidentaly incomparably idiotic to take a civilian's bike he was suppposed to only "try" and not throw into a ditch (at least for his own sake).
Forget this bloke may be called to place his life on the line to save yours or your "intelligent" girlfriend.
That has nothing to do with it.
Forget the BS he has to put up with on a daily basis from lifes a-holes to ensure your day is a happy one and peace free.
Same thing.
Most cops go into the job wanting to make a difference and to put some emphasis on their own lives ...
Yes...
...so that one day they can look back and think they didnt waste it all, pi$$ing it up against a wall or climbing the corporate ladder stepping on other peoples toes.
That's the cop's responsibility, not my friend's.
It takes about 4 years on average before a Cop starts getting cynical about why he/she chose the job they did. In 6-10, most have left the Force as people like your "Intelligent" girlfriend prefer to screw them rather than use plain ordinary God given common sense.
Ok , that's understandable, but o/t too, and when common sense is something we consider (can't remember the adjective for this Zzz), the officer is the one with the bigger deficit. Forget letting an officer in uniform that you do not want to provoke (as you pointed to and common sense implies, you don't want to make any bad assumptions at the wrong time) onto your 10k$+ bike in the middle of the night with plenty of witnesses if something did go wrong to defend your truth.
At 10 years and over, those of us who remain rarely give 2 hoots what your problems are as you all start to sound the same. Throw in people like Swoops "intelligent" girlfriend and you see why the Cop who has you by the short and curlys on the side of the road, doesnt really give a damn why you were speeding, or how hard you have it in life that you had to take that item without payment.
pff.. Paranoia or biased belligerence, now it's both off-subject and personal & undue grudge. You apply generality to a specified given case.
Its a simple Road accident. Not Murder 1. Your friend is insured and he's just as responsible for it happening as the Cop was. Why did he get insurance in the first place?
He is responsible for giving permission as asked to an officer in uniform to take his bike for a try. Asked officer if he was serious, told yes. Cop goes screaming off, few seconds later people (cops and riders) are running to over there, he does too and sees the bike wrong side up. Cop had no helmet, thrown ~15ft, uninjured.
Who is more responsible? Don't be biased, don't look at your badge but instead put yourself in his place.
Tell your friend that a Cop in Australia thinks he should start acting like a man instead of some pansy wuss out to screw some bloke over a simple irrelevant prang cause the easiest thing to do is threaten his livelihood.
That's not it. He talked to the cop, and finds him an ok guy that's against the wall, at least, but wants his bike back. Is that wussiness?
Fill in the insurance papers. Speak to the Cop in person, [...
done...
not act like a Big girls blouse or some hissy fitting female and start taking some responsiblity for his own stupity.
ignoring the first sentence half, it sounds like taking some responsibility for the wreck means letting the person (cop or not) who himself made the bike go from normal condition to totalled off with no responsibility. And this because he deserves sympathy. That's not the question. He is reponsible for wreckless driving (for example) but obviously the officers that were on the spot and witnessed it did not and will not write him a ticket. That would be fairness. So we are already on the side of the officer as to fairness and responsibility.
The question of what the insurance will do, how much a repair or replacement would cost is already quoted above, now the question of how to get his bike back without (if possible) having to pay with probation and rate hike that are from someone else's accident, or wait forever while the guy who rode the motorcycle into the ditch has to pay the reparations and also his own life's costs, like everyone else on this planet.
Im sure, that if your friend does things the right way instead of that shi**y way described above, he will get what he wants or a satisfactory result without having to screw some bloke out of a job that you yourself wouldnt want on a good day.
He's not trying to screw the cop, etc. I repeat myself.
If there is more flaming on the way, forget this whole thread; it is not worth typing on this keyboard forever like this uselessly.
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Well it sure sounds like your gonna try and screw him anyway cause thats the easy option.
I have no apoligy for my post. I stand behind every word. Quote it as often as you like. You asked for advice. I gave it. When I hear knuckleheads like swoops girlfriend post idiot advice, I say so. No good popsicle footing around with that type.
What it sounds like to me, is that you have already made up your mind to tell your friend to seek out the Cops employer and use his occupation against him to seek his own personal ends.
Not even sure why you asked in the first place.
I said it before. I'll say it again.
popsicles choose that option.
I didnt say the Cop was right. He sounds like an idiot and my reaction is not to your simple enough and innocent question. Its in response to the fools post above it from Swoop.
Your friend did make a bonehead decision whether you like to hear it or not. The Cop was irresponsible and damn right stupid in getting into that situation.
But I wonder if you would contact a Postmans employer in order to seek financial compensation from him? Or a Dustman, a shop assistant or a nurse?
Would the title of your thread have read..."Uniformed Postman trashes civs bike."
I doubt it.
You like the idea of contacting the Cops boss cause we know how that system works. Attack the Cops integrity despite knowing nothing of his service record cause thats the easiest way of achieving your means.
Anyway you look at it, Its a popsicle Option for rutabagas.
At the end of the day, you decide on what advice to give your friend.
Going to his Officer in Charge, wont get you the money any faster than doing it by Small Claims court or Insurance. It'll just make the Cop mad, get him in trouble and turn a workable solution, unworkable. Even if they were to access and deduct his pay. They arent going to do it without a Court order.
Something you could do in the first place and avoid all the unpleasantry.
The Cop no doubt will still be out there at 4am in the morning, freezing his prettythang off making sure you sleep well in your bed that night.
For that matter.....so will I.
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Before your friend starts running this up the chain of command...
Has he talked to the officer?
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People are people. Just cos someone's got a badge doesnt mean they cant be a jumped up little avacado pretending to be Hitler.
Forget that he's a cop, that doesnt matter, it all comes down to respect. If I wrecked something that belonged to someone else I replace or repair it cos thats just what ya gotta do. Anyone who would quite happily refuse to do so is a no honor wank stain and deserves anything they get.
(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
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In most states the owner of the vehicle is the primary person liable in an accident (unless it was taken without his permission) so actually if he had no insurance of his own the cop could have a case for suing your friend for any injuries he received while trashing your friends bike.
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Sometimes, we need to overlook what's legal and do what is right.
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In Britain it's different. The rider has to be the one insured, not the vehicle.
(http://www.boomspeed.com/swoop/logo_small.jpg)
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I'll answer sandman first.
Yes. I am starting to go amnesiac, but I think I said so earlier.
Yes, he talked to him, before , after, and after after.
He's found him a nice guy all three times, and didn't want to screw him over as it keeps being said, but only GET HIS 13,000$ BIKE BACK.
it's beyond me how you let someone wearing that uniform on your bike after asking him if he's serious and being told yes, and then have your bike wrecked, and then help the guy out of the ditch , and then have every solution close like a clam, each with their reason,
-insurance: you're paying us so we can cover you for what's not your fault. This is your fault -> 3yrs probation + rate hike.
-cop: toejam! I didn't mean to! I have children! I'm a fellow biker! have pity! (he did)
-other cops: we didn't see anything!
-sheriff's office: no comment!
-other bikers: dude you're in it deep!
-other cops: You cop-hater! burn in hell for wanting what my brethren took from you!
Anyway, I'm not the one who did it, he's my (bonehead and likewise decision or not) friend so I try to help him out when he needs it.
It's just as easy to put this in the popsicle category as it is to make this a cop VS non-cop question, as it is for me to say I agree with you that was a stupid thing to do for both of them etcetera, but that's no help. I want my friend to have his bike back. Who cares if the sheriff's office will owe him 13,000? not me. But I'm not the one deciding, so whether I do or not is irrelevant.
Who cares if the cop goes in debt and loses his job and pees his matress at night from now on? not me. My friend yes, he doesn't want that. Neither are relevant because that's not the way it's supposed to go. It's not an attack on the cop's integrity, it's a weighing of what's best option considering potential benefit and loss here and there.
Whatever happens I take it lightly because it's not me, I only want info to give as advice, not orders I would then also be responsible for.......................
I might as well edit the thread to nothing and forget about it. Keep your saliva to yourself, I'm a middleman, not the one making the decision; legal advice is what I meant to ask, not ethical analysis.
Meanwhile a famine in africa, rapes in new dehli, guerilla in south america. etc.
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The cop is potentially in deep doo-doo. He probably violated several departmental procedures. Depending on his disciplinary record, he could be facing termination.
You are correct as to the individual liability of the officer and some degree of liability on the part of his employer.
I would think that the officer would jump at the chance to make good on the damage.
It shouldn't be necessary to ruin this knucklehead, unless, of course, your buddy and his lawyer want to try to go for the deep pockets. I would hate to see that happen. It might not even pan out, but rocketman would go down anyway.
What these lawyers do is send thier client into the police department to make a formal Internal Affairs complaint against the officer, then sit back and let the police department do all the investigating. When the investigation is done, they simply order up a copy under the public records law and bill thier client $$$. Of course, the client doens't realise that he doesn't need a lawyer for that.
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Qnm I have to kinda agree with the above in the sense that by surrendering the bike to the other person (cop or no cop) he also took responsibility for the possible damage.
If he has insurance he should use it, that's what it's for.
Situation would be totally different if the police officer had used his power to force him to surrender the bike. That wasn't the question here was it?
If someone borrows your bike at voluntary basis and damages it, it's in his good will and concious to repay the damage. However the final responsibility goes to the owner who was foolish enough to surrender his expensive piece of hardware to the hands of a stranger.
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I have the solution...
(http://www.judgejudy.com/images/home/judy2.jpg) (http://www.judgejudy.com/home/main.asp)
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1: wingnut:.. yes.. you are completely right.. there are blockhead cops out there.. it just pains me to think of one being this retarded.
2: qnm: if things happened that way, it seems it should be pretty easy ..you said there are witnesses.. a subpoena for them would compell them to say what they saw.
im assuming by your spelling of 'labour' that you are in canada or uk? so liability laws maybe different than the us.
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What if it hadn't been a police officer that "borrowed" the bike?
I don't care if he's a cop or not.. if someone walked up to me and wanted to take mine for a spin... I'd suggest he look elsewhere.
Your friend made a serious mistake in granting permission to ride the bike. That pretty much sums it up.
Why does this post remind me of TheWobble?
AKDejaVu
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What country did this happen in? Don't you guys have insurance?
In the US (at least California) if he wrecked your vehicle his insurance would have to pay for it. End of story.
Now if he wants to try to get his employer to pay for it, that's his problem.
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His employer is not responsible of his actions in any way unless he acted as a police authority and used his authority to get the bike. If not, they can only warn him of improper behaviour and give a ticket for reckless driving.
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Qnm,
Response from a retired Cop.
1. Your friend doesn't need advice from a Police Officer, he needs to see his attorney. You said he's doing that, fine.
2. Your friend was in his rights to allow another person to ride the bike. No problem there. A loss caused by the rider would likely be shared between both the rider and your friend. Percentage to be set by negotiation and or court.
3. If this started out on the roadway it likely constitutes a traffic accident by definition. If it started and finished on private property it may not depending on the local statutes. If it IS a traffic collision your friend should have filed an official Police report, then sent a copy to his insurance with a claim. The insurance Company can then go after who they feel is responsible for the loss, unless your friend wants to do that on his own.
4. Any Police Officer / Deputy / Constable (or whatever designation is valid) who is in uniform at the time of the incident IS still a representative of their department and their actions are still likely to be the departments responsibility. Working as a Police Officer off duty he is still working as a Police Officer with all the responsibilities that entails. This carries even if they are out of uniform and off duty at times in the case of negligence, criminal actions etc. depending on the circumstances. In the case of still being in uniform the department should WANT to know what the Officer did as he is representing them at the time. Your friend may have a claim against the Governmental entity that the Department "works" for as well as the department. See the lawyer.
5. The claim that your friend is calling into doubt the Officers integrity is true. The Officer however, is tainting his integrity all on his own by not making the circumstances right for an action you say happened in the way you said it did. Please note I am not calling your claims into doubt but you are posting a situation that is unsubstantiated at this time and doing so "second hand". If the story is not as your friend, or you, have posted the results could be quite different. If the story is in fact true and the Officer has refused to make reparations your friend is certainly entitled to claim them by legal action. A uniform does not negate dumb actions nor does it shield the person from them. If this DOES have to go to court, with the circumstances you outlined, then the department / local government (city, county, township, whatever) has an agency detailed to investigate and handle claims by their employees.
6. Now the true answer for all of this is to advise your friend to get competant legal counsel dealing with the laws and procedures of the appropriate jurisdiction instead of asking for non qualified opinions on a game BBS. Your post really serves no purpose in "assisting" your friend. It pretty much looks like a troll but I felt it might be worth taking the time to take it as a non troll question, hence my response.
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Just say NO!
;)
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To clear something up, yes I agree what he did was stupid.
Yes I agree he is responsible enough that he cannot deny he is to blame.
Yes the best solution for his karma is to do this with a lawyer.
But the original question was to find which solution had the quickest and most effective way of restoring his bike, not which one I found most attractive myself; what my friend decides to do from here is up to him, not me, so back off the flames.
If he did something stupid that I disapprove of myself, then the most useful thing for me to do is give him advice. He is responsible for himself.
MrRipley, thank you. I agree with you, I wanted to sample people's opinion on this to hear maybe if any idea was better than the ones brought up so far. I will forward your post to him.
It's obvious he is not my friend, and I only read about the guy on another message board, and felt sorry for him and the lack of replies there. This then went out of proportions and made me want to edit the posts off rather than argue for something that wasn't worth it. Some are going a bit mad from seeing the supposedly inflamatory title etc, but it's to guarantee a response rather than to troll. You can lapidate me on the AHBB town square for all I care.
Excuse me as english is not my first language.
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To clear something else up....
-other cops: You cop-hater! burn in hell for wanting what my brethren took from you!
He took nothing. It was given to him.
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Yes, it was irony.