Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Samm on June 10, 2002, 01:41:23 PM
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What purpose does it serve other than punishing players for accidentally shooting someone, as if the game weren't punishing enough. Why not just make everyone immune to friendly fire, meaning the shooter also ?
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Killshooter makes people fly and fight in a more realistic manner than does simply having friendlies be immune to fire.
Realistically people would not fire through the friendly aircraft in front of them on the off chance that some of their bullets would strike the enemy aircraft on the other side. Killshooter makes then take this into consideration, whereas immune friendlies would make this tactic rampant.
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Cant count the number of times I've just rotated, and had some newbie behind me trying to pepper my plane. Ya try and warn em, but soon pieces are falling off their plane and down they go.:D
I've been killshot several times, and it kinda hacks me off some each time, but it's the best alternative right now. As HiTech said, it's the shooters responsibility for where his bullets go.;)
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Although this subject has been beaten to death for the next 200 years I gonna add my pudding to it!
I cannot find anything realistic in a system that promotes cutting in ones way to steal a kill (plus killing the pursuer while taking a shower in his stream of well aimed bullets).
Realistic solution: Bullet/shell does equal damage enemy and friendly
- Pro: as IRL
- Con: possible abuse by some freaken kiddos; punishment system (e.g. PNG) hurts if friendly fire by accident (or by stupid killstealer)
Toned down realism: Dmg to friendly at a lower scale (maybe 1:5 or so) plus introducing punishment system a la PNG*.
- Pro: almost as IRL; friendly fire by accident less probable - friendly fire on purpose will be punished hard
- Con: still possible abuse
*Persona Non Grata: one you wouldnt trust --> e.g. no live ammunition ;)
Alternative punishment: harsh perk point reduction/ plane restrictions/ "dummy"-icon ( :D )/ <-- maybe combinable with "free bounty" e.g. NO punishment if you shoot the baddy down ;)
No friendly fire
- Pro: no stupid deaths by killshooter anymore;
- Con: killstealing could be a problem (but at least the pursuer in the first place isn't punished for it
Besides "selfkill" for buffs would enchance realism as well. Shooting through your own fuselage/wing is really kinda silly (well 1.10 promised "cold-trigger" zones)
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i only dislike bombs getting you killshot when a friendly plane flies through the blast.
If you bomb a friendly GV fine I can understand that...
remove killshooter vs friendly planes when bombing +)
SKurj
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Nope can't understand that either, ok if you release bomb from 2k but about a month ago I lost a 234 when I dropped from 20k on a hanger. Happened to be a friendly GV hanging out in the hanger. Boom lost a bunch of perks.
The other piece of killshooter I hate, when escorting bombers and fire on a con that's chewing the tail of a friendly bomber. I've seen squadmates in bombers die because they've over shot con and hit me and I've die by pinging them. It gives a real unfair advantage to the con that gets inside the bomber formation.
If killshooter wasn't there, yes there might be a bit of abuse in a fighter vs fighter scenerio but the kill shooter would very quickly earn themselves a bad reputation and most likely get blasted by pissed country folks every time they took off.
OR... even better, give a kill shooter command so that if player xyz does abuse the system, friendlies could enter ".killshooter xyz", if that player shoots you again you'd be protected and xyz would die.
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Originally posted by zipity
The other piece of killshooter I hate, when escorting bombers and fire on a con that's chewing the tail of a friendly bomber. I've seen squadmates in bombers die because they've over shot con and hit me and I've die by pinging them. It gives a real unfair advantage to the con that gets inside the bomber formation.
Escort fighter shouldn't fly through bomber formations.
Killshooter with bombs from 20k isn't fun though. Had to call a friendly m3 to roll out of town when dropping a bomb this week. Luckily he did :)
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After posting my last reply, I read the post on "smoke colors" and had a great idea to solve the problem of killing a GV from 20k. How about a couple of colored smoke rounds in each GV? When they enter a field they could puff smoke (no i'm not puffing smoke) to let friendlies know that they are down there.
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And with that comes the enemy AI artilery fire, because no fool would POP SMOKE giving away their location.
Yes I like it! HEHE...
And the expression is "POP SMOKE" - not "PUFF SMOKE"
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I'm not a big advocate of kill shooter, but then I have had the occasional newbie think that the Main Arena is FFA and start shooting at me from a GV at the end of the runway so I can see it's usefullness. :rolleyes:
I would like to see a hybrid type of system... one that adds realism by distributing the damage where it should but protects from clueless dweebs.
Therefore, for realism, I'm suggesting that bullets damage the target plane (intended or not). If someone shoots down or causes the friendly to bail due to damage, the offender would be warned via something on the clipboard and the account is flagged for 24hrs (i.e. one "accident" tolerated for net lag or just general stupidity on either individuals part, etc.) If the shooter continues to carelessly spray ammo after his/her account is flagged, any further deaths would be penalized with a perk loss unless the shooter has less than 200 perks or some other arbitrary amount. This way, you can penalize someone by a perk deduction for continued friendly fire incidents. Kill a team mate... learn to watch your fire... do it again, you lose a 262. If you don't have enough points for a 262, you are reduced to zero perks and killshooter works like normal and protects the victim, sending the shooter down in flames.
Now I also realize that a change such as this would probably result in a few more deaths to the guy who has actually worked to get saddled up while three of his team mates spray from 400 behind him but eventually the people who jump onto a parade formation would be killshootering themselves anyway.
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Or you could circumvent the whole mess by turning friendly fire off completely like every other online flightsim.
Of course that would lead to the huge lameness that is rampant in all those other flight sims, not sure what that is though .
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Originally posted by Samm
Or you could circumvent the whole mess by turning friendly fire off completely like every other online flightsim.
Of course that would lead to the huge lameness that is rampant in all those other flight sims, not sure what that is though .
Hmmm... I'm guessing that would be the five planes on your six in a nice straight line distanced from 700 to 1500 all shooting through each other hoping for that one golden bb.
...but that's just a guess :D
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I think killshooter is the best all around solution, as unrealistic as it is.
An alternative:
All bullets are lethal to the aircraft they hit, including friendly.
If a friendly is hit, they get a perk point bonus, as sort of a "purple heart".
To stop abuse, the person that did the friendly firing loses big time somehow, like a great number of perk points, for instance. Also a highlighted buffer message that the victory by so and so was friendly fire. I'm sure the treatment that person would receive would then be enough of a deterrent to keep them from keeping it up.
I still prefer the current killshooter concession.
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imho, i think both the shooter and shootee should take the damage - no perk "bonus" or penalty... at least that's what'd i'd like to see.
i really doubt that people would rampantly killshoot their own country mates, altho i do see potential for abuse, and the resulting waste of HTC resources in investigating claims of abuse.
soooo.... it's ok as it is now, i suppose.
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Originally posted by Alpo
Hmmm... I'm guessing that would be the five planes on your six in a nice straight line distanced from 700 to 1500 all shooting through each other hoping for that one golden bb.
...but that's just a guess :D
Who said anything about being able to shoot through friendly planes ? It's simple really, just expand the protect objects option to include planes . The only reason I see for not doing this is if one wishes to punish the shooter for his mistakes .
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OK... so I didn't expect you take the "through planes" to be literal :rolleyes:
Are you saying you would rather have the parade of dweebs spraying tracers over your shoulder at the enemy plane??? Don't you see that is exactly what would happen if you "protected" all friendlies?
If I'm saddled up on a bandit, I really don't want to have to keep looking back to see if the tracers zipping past my canopy from 6 o'clock are "friendly" or not. Killshooter keeps that crap down.
Unfortunately, often in a tight scissors fight, someone will occasionally zoom through a snap shot of mine. In those instances, I would rather watch the friendly lose a wing to my cannons than me as he would have been much more useful staying high and watching my six as opposed to trying to grab the "free lunch". Yes, I would be willing to pay a penalty but I would still be in position for the kill... accidents happen, but in the end, the shooter is responsible for his bullets... hit a friend... pay the price be it killshooter or other methods.
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I like it because it kills me when I screw up.
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I cannot find anything realistic in a system that promotes cutting in ones way to steal a kill (plus killing the pursuer while taking a shower in his stream of well aimed bullets).
Its a system that promotes the concept that the plane in back not fire with a friendly in front of him... wether the guy cut in or not.
Sorry, but I cannot believe that in WW2, shooting down a friendly was OK if he was trying to steal your kill.
Killshooter promotes one thing undisputably: You must now heavily consider your actions when pressing the trigger with friendlies nearby.
It also promotes something else undisputably: A dweeb cannot kill his own teammates no matter what he tries.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Alpo
If I'm saddled up on a bandit, I really don't want to have to keep looking back to see if the tracers zipping past my canopy from 6 o'clock are "friendly" or not.
Hmm wonder why that bothers you . I still say WB and AW had a better system, that is friendly bullets do nothing to friendly structures, planes or the shooter .
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Disabling the guns of the shooter is more than enough punishment, no need to disintegrate his plane.
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Originally posted by Fatty
I like it because it kills me when I screw up.
Hehe, that is the real reason for it, rationalize all you want . It's kind of like when you are punished for exiting your plane when it is on a part of the airfield that is not the proper color .
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Originally posted by Samm
Hmm wonder why that bothers you.
:confused:
Well... let's see ... is it some enemy trying to save his bud and barely missing me or a teammate who seems to think .50s can kill at d1200. (Note: if it's the latter I'll move slightly into his stream... that should stop his silliness :D)
I still say WB and AW had a better system, that is friendly bullets do nothing to friendly structures, planes or the shooter .
Well... I don't know about WB, but AW had PNG for 2 friendly kills in 24 hour period. PNG meant you got NO ammo for 24 hours... a PENALTY. The friendly guy died... the system told you that you had killed a friendly... a WARNING. For every friendly after the initial two, you received an extra 24 hours of PNG. Accidentally pickling your bomb on the runway when you had all gun positions filled in a B17 could really screw with your fighting potential that week... but you sure learned to be more careful. Something that your method doesn't address at all. :rolleyes:
I remember with fondness the dweeb hunts when someone would come online and start fragging teammates. We would let him get a few kills under his belt (people would actually line up and fly straight and level for them). Once he had about four kills, someone else would blow him away. Then the radio buffer would soon be filled with "Why don't I have any ammo?!?!?" (and yes... we were warning him on open channel) :D
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They turned off friendly kills in AW in 97 or so .
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I didn't remember them turning it off because I learned my lesson after the first PNG session! :D
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Killshooter = good
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I didn't realise killshooter was a problem. I've been playing for over a year and have never killed myself
DES
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Ok Nexus, you got me... you pop - I'll puff... :-) Guess I'm suffering from a few too many dead brain cells.
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Deja, I do not say i want to shoot down the kill-stealer (well, I might want to afterall... ;) ) - but if someone cuts into the way close (especially from underneath!) you have hardly any chance to NOT hit him even if you stop firing immediately.
(accidental) Friendly kills were a reality in WW2 - but I never heard from a plane disintegrating from shooting at a friendly!!
I like Mandobles idea! Immediately disable the shooters gun - will drop him outta the fight but will still keep him able to RTB!
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I play without my glasses.
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Damage to both planes would be good. Or pehaps 50% to plane hit and 100 % to the shooter in terms of hit percentage. Then nobody gets away scott clean. This would satisfy the reality aspect as well as the gaming aspect.
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Killshooter good.
Amplified damage is bad.
Your plane should take the damage it dishes out, not lose the whole damn tail when you put a .303 into someone.
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In a 'blue on blue' engagment someone on your sides usually dies. That's what killshooter provides.
In addition, killshooter is fun. It tells people this is not Quake or whatever and that they need to 'get a clue' about what's going on.
Just leave it the way it is.
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Most of my deaths occur from either shooting a fighter off of a friendly buff or chasing a guy shooting at him when a friendly comes in at him HO .
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>>Killshooter good.
>>Amplified damage is bad.
Didnt mean that 1 ping kills shooter. Meant that if shooter shoots 2 20mm into his own side up front then the guy who got shot takes 1 20mm and the guy who did the shooting takes 2 20mms. This is so that the kill stealers who in real life would have been toast also take responsibility for the fiasco. This would help to make ACM more realistic too.
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Originally posted by Samm
They turned off friendly kills in AW in 97 or so .
With bullets, yes.... it was still possible to kill friendlies with bombs, though..... as I found out! :o Once was bombing an enemy field and I accidentally dropped on a friendly that was sat on the ground, killing the pilot and gunner - instant PNG! Another time, I accidentally dropped a bomb while typing on the text channels at the end of a Flyby (final flyby of volunteer staff when EA decided we were no longer required :rolleyes: ), killing unknown number of others who were in close proximity. Fortunately, that was my last time using that account, so the fact I would have been PNG for some time didn't matter. :D
So far in AH I have mostly managed not to Killshooter myself, by being careful if there are friendlies in my line of fire - I will stop firing rather than risk hitting them. The only exception was a few weeks ago... I was spawning an Ostwind at a remote location and noticed an 'enemy' right at the spawn point - fired at it, but each time it got me first. After it happened about 3 times, it suddenly dawned on me that I was in fact hitting a friendly each time..... I had been messing about with the Icon settings, and had accidentally left them as Icons Off! Therefore, when I had seen the GVs without icons I had presumed they were enemies and opened fire. :)
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I always liked the idea of a delayed kill shooter............
Your FE adds up the damage you would have (if it counted)inflicted upon your country men during that flight............. each time giving you a warning...
once you exceed a preset you die with no perks earnt for that flight...........
Tilt