Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: wulfie on June 12, 2002, 12:28:42 PM
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This is not a whine.
Many who read this post may already know what I am talking about. If so, no need to tell the world that you already know - keep the reply #s down please so informative replies are not lost in 'clutter' and cannot be seen by the (new, newer) people who could learn something by reading this thread.
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So you are on the deck (~100' altitude), kind of slow (~250 MPH), being forced to use evasive maneuvers vs. an enemy who is 500-650 away from you and firing in short, well aimed bursts. Behind that enemy are 3 other enemy aircraft who are flying straight and level and heading for you at max. power. (For realisms/simplicitys sake) We'll say that we are in the MA and you and all 4 bad guys are flying Spitfire IXs. 8)
4000' above you, diving towards you at high speed from your high '3', is a friendly Fw 190D-9. There are numerous other bad guys around also, all at about 6000' altitude and within visual range your side is outnumbered roughly 2:1.
The Fw 190 gives you an 'auto check 6 call' (duh), then you get a message on 'channel 3'. "xxxxxx im otw drag" (with 'xxxxxx' = your handle).
When that Fw 190D-9 gets to about 2.0 from you, at your not so high '3' anymore, turn to your '9' and enter a shallow dive. If you use evasives make them very very slight. Your heading should not change more than 5 degrees at a time. No excessive roll.
Remember this: any evasive maneuver you make is going to be mirrored by the bad guy 600 behind you. If you can keep your speed up and your course roughly the same, the closest bad guy is going to get shot down and you will be at around 300 MPH (so the next 3 bad guys coming will have a reduced rate of closure) when that nearest bad guy explodes.
If that bad guy doesn't explode, it's because he made a 'break turn' to avoid being shot, and you now have some good separation.
Better yet, if that Fw 190D-9 (or P-51, or La, or F4U, or P-47) didn't have to use alot of elevator input on the gun pass and/or the kill, he still has alot of speed. He's probably looping, doing a half roll at the top of the loop to look for the biggest threat and/or line up the congo line of 3 closing bad guy Spitfire IXs, so he can drop in behind them as they try to chase you and make them make a decision - continue chasing you and get shot at, or break off the chase and don't get shot at.
The cliff notes version - if someone is coming to help you and they are very fast, don't perform an evasive maneuver (e.g. break turn, split s, etc.) that will force them to maneuver heavily to get set up a gun pass on the enemy who is shooting at/chasing you. Maneuver to put the enemy behind you flying with his bellybutton towards your potential saviour, flying in a straight line with roughly the same heading as your potential savior.
'FYI'.
Mike/wulfie
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Nothing hardest than trying to help a friend in a spit being pursued by another spit.
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Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.
I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.
I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.
that reminds me...aminal did that last night when i was trying to smoke the spit that was chasing him....right aminal ;)
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Originally posted by Hristo
Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.
I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.
When that happens, in a badly outnumbered situation, I let the idiot die and keep my speed up with a gentle pull to zoom.
You want me to save you? Don't make me turn myself into a target to do it, so I can die and you get home.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Good post Wulfie, I can only agree.
I am sick of types who drag even with separation and then break hard just as I get into firing range of enemy pursuing them. They deserve to die being that stupid.
hehe I "quit" helping those types years ago. I don't give up speed for somebody who break turns 2 seconds before I'm about to shoot. They couldn't wait a couple more seconds to turn so they die.
Or worse yet are the ones that drag to you from say 4 miles away and they fly right to you giving you no lateral seperation. In that situation if there is enough vertical seperation to do a split-s on the bad guy I will otherwise I just fly off looking for another target.
This is why finding a good wingman is crucial to survival in the MA. Get a good wingy and you don't have to talk. Both know what to do and when to do it based upon the situation at hand. I've been in flights of 2-4 planes jumped by 3 or 4 times as many planes only to have all 4 of us RTB after sending 10 bad guys down in flames. Drag -n- Bag baby! You gotta love it!
good post!
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true cave. I only make 1 attempt to clear someone's 6, if they turn hard when im doing it, I dont even try for a snapshot I just pull up to climb again and leave them to their fate.
I have system to give 6 calls.
1X 6-call = con near you may be making a run on you.
2X 6-calls= YOU GOT ONE ON YOUR bellybutton STUPID!
3X 6-calls= DRAG FOR ME IM ON THE WAY.
Of course, they dont know about it, but most of the times I get the desired results. People tend to look around when get one 6 call only, they tend to take an evasive FIRST then look around when 2 6 calls are given in a row...
and the 3 X 6 calls hasnt gotten the desired effect yet.. they seem to panic and do a hard evasive. Hopefully this post will help ;)
Dragin' tip: The best drag is the one that makes your opponent get tunnel vision on you (aka concentrate on YOU only and ignore stuff around him) while you fly in a relatively straight line. This is best achieved by jinking. Con on your 6, d800 away.. closing in... firing. Someone gives you 3X 6calls in a row ( ;) ) or tells you over vox they clearing your 6. Instead of doing hard evasives, you start on erratic level flight (jinking).. that is, pull nose down for a second, roll left and let the plane drift left for a second, pull nose up with a little roll to a side , etc, etc. For the guy on your 6, this will make it hard to aim, especially if you do below horizon jinks.. which makes him really concentrate on firing on you and not on the guy coming on HIS 6 to clear YOUR 6. Heck, even doing lazy "short" flat sciscors below and above the horizon works for this.
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Guys,
While I can certainly sympathize with your frustration...
We need to keep in mind that a decent % of guys who conduct a break turn while you are coming to clear them may not know any better.
Think back to your first year in an online sim. If you took some hits you probably broke as hard into the enemy as you could.
I think alot of guys in the MA just don't know that not breaking is maybe their best shot at staying alive.
I at least try to explain on private after it happens. About 50% of the time the guy had no clue.
Every time you educate someone about this you are investing in future easy kills... 8)
Hristo,
Some times I think the guy is breaking to prempt his pursuer - i.e. he assumes his pursuer is going to have to 'give up the angle' against him to evade and he's setting up a counterattack early. I see this happen alot when it's 1 on 2 (with you and the guy you are clearing being the '2') or if it's 2 on 2 and the enemy's 2d bad guy let himself get too far removed from the action.
Mike/wulfie
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On the other hand.... Nothing is more frustrating than being killed after slow scisoring a con for half a sector while 3 friendlies are shooting away at him with no affect. Another is when you drag 6 timid guys out of the ack only to have 6 friendlies stay 3k above and watch the show till you have shot up 3 of the stalwarts and gotten the other 3 nso low on e that your grandmother could kill em..
I only count on squaddies to clear my six... cuts down on the disapointment.
lazs
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Dont worry lazs I will protect you LOL ;)
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Originally posted by Tac
I have system to give 6 calls.
1X 6-call = con near you may be making a run on you.
2X 6-calls= YOU GOT ONE ON YOUR bellybutton STUPID!
3X 6-calls= DRAG FOR ME IM ON THE WAY.
Ahh, this reminds me of good 'ol Joe Crip's system to give 6 calls hehe :)
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Originally posted by wulfie
Guys,
While I can certainly sympathize with your frustration...
We need to keep in mind that a decent % of guys who conduct a break turn while you are coming to clear them may not know any better.
Think back to your first year in an online sim. If you took some hits you probably broke as hard into the enemy as you could.
I think alot of guys in the MA just don't know that not breaking is maybe their best shot at staying alive.
Mike/wulfie
that's why i like your (this post) post wulfie...to help ed-u-macate those that could benefit from learning a proper drag. good job.
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Good post Wulfie, 100% agree.
I am d2.0 off a low con chasing a freindly...i dive down...close on the enemy...but wait, the friendly is now doing all these crazy manuvers....yup...friednly just died, then I kill the enemy.
The friendly didn't have to die, and i see this happen sooo much. Just a piece of advise:
If help is on the way, hold still
:) Hope this helps
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narsus,
shhhhhhhh......
lazs hasn't noticed that HE is always doing the dragging, and his squadies are doing the bagging.
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lazs has a valid point. But the way to solve his frustration is to educate people how to clear someone who is using a slow rolling scissors to evade gunfire.
So here's the cliff notes answer:
If the guy you are trying to clear is using a slow rolling scissors, do not follow either aircraft (i.e. the guy you are trying to clear, or the enemy chasing him).
You want to be wings level, ready to fire, and begin firing as the enemy begins to roll towards your gunsight (unless you are *very* comfortable with snap shooting, etc.). Keep your wings level and let the enemy 'scissor' thru your stream of fire.
In general, try to fly 1.5-2.0 seconds ahead of an evading enemy. Try to learn to think in terms of 'in 1.5-2.0 seconds he can be in one of 2 places...I will have my guns lined up on the 1 place of 2 that I can most easily line up on'. You want to have to use an absolute minimum of maneuver for the 1 or 2 seconds before you fire on an enemy aircraft, because then you are only having to deal with the timing of your gunfire.
One of the main point of a rolling scissors is that you *usually* have to fly 'ahead' of the scissoring aircraft for a gun solution. If the scissoring aircraft sees you are doing this, he can 'break out of the scissors' before he begins to 'roll back' (towards your gun solution). He 'gains some angle' by doing this, as you are flying straight and not following him for a second or two. It gets him some separation.
If you don't 'fly ahead' for a gun solution vs. the rolling scissor, and instead decide to track/pursue thru the scissors, there is a chance you could be forced to overshoot your target at low speed, assuming your target can make you miss the 2 or 3 shots you are going to get before the overshoot occurs (some guys are really good at this).
In lazs case, if the enemy doesn't scissor with lazs he continues his turn at the far side of the scissor instead of rolling back, and gains some separation. If the enemy goes for the tracking pursuit of the scissor, you come in fast in a straight line and set the enemy up to scissor thru your gun arc. But if you are clearing someone who is in danger of being shot don't spare ammunition. Have a good burst of fire up and out there for the enemy to fly thru.
Eheheh some cliff notes. 8)
Mike/wulfie
p.s. lazs I won't miss when clearing you on the rolling scissors...assuming I manage to get there before drex kills everyone. 8)
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Dragging is for the most part a lost art. To the point that setting the table more times than not is met with indifference.
Have a conga line in tow, head for a group of higher friendlies, make your setup turn...
And the friendlys keep on, keep on truckin...
Or, have a couple dive in, and you get to "that" point, start a gentle climb to lay them out for your buddies, and they can't put the guy down...
And as you said on the flip side, not "setting" the drag when they have the help.
But everyone is learning, lota fun.
I just try to not put myself in the dragger position if I can avoid it.
But sh*t happens :D
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(http://www.3-jg2.com/3jg2image/Drag.gif)
Dragging is an art. Most folks in the main think situational awareness only relates to the knowing where and what the enemy is. With the Icon system in the main most folks have no idea what their country mates around them are flying. I have been in many situations where I am in a position to clear a country mates six and at the last moment before I get a guns solution my country mate breaks hard into me. Leaving me in the position to force a shot and bleed my e or go into a pitch back manuver. Most of the time he will be killed before I get around in a hi yo yo to clear him.
Flying in a squad with fellows who fly the same planes makes "dragging" and "clearing" much easier. When preforming evasives you must be aware of the abilities of the plane and pilot trying to clear you. Never turn into him cutting his angle. Communicate with the guy clearing your six. With the new integrated vox in Aces High it makes it easier to communicate. Think in terms of "setting up" the bandit not just in avoiding his guns. However, fly to live. Dont just stay level catching bullets wondering when help will arrive. Always turn away from your help and keep an eye on his position. Dont make drastic hard manuvers. Just because you're in a niki or spit that doesnt mean the rest of us are. Again staying alive is number 1 concern but all the hard manuvers most likely wont save. Your friends most likely will if you work with him.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I only count on squaddies to clear my six... cuts down on the disapointment.
lazs
Same here, although I do get some pleasant surprises from time to time.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Nothing hardest than trying to help a friend in a spit being pursued by another spit.
En el caso del Spit amigo, lo más probable es que gire hacia a ti y te deje el otro de frente intentando hacerte un HO.
Si tu estás con malote a las 6 y viene un Spit amigo de frente y con más altura y E, no esperas que haga un Inmelman descendente y se ponga a las 6 del enemigo para matarlo, siempre intentara el HO y seguira de largo a por el siguiente HO.
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Originally posted by mason22
that reminds me...aminal did that last night when i was trying to smoke the spit that was chasing him....right aminal ;)
You Idiot I was slow and that spit was 200 yards from me, what was I supposed to do, sit like a tard so you can try your poor gunnery as his hispanos punctured my skull.
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Good point wulfie.
Have been in the clearing position many times. I make ONE pass only while trying to keep E high, and only when I have a clear escape route to egress. Especially in the ocasions where a friendly is chased by 3 or 4 I love to come in on the last one in the row, plink him, make him break, fly through to next one, etc, until friendly is clear.
Before I do so I check 6 the friendly to let him know I'm aware of his situation and tell him on range channel I'm IN. If I see he's going into wild evasives which I can't follow with high speed, I'm OUT, tuff luck for the friendly he's on his own from that point on.
If you want your six cleared by a friendly with a high E-state you have to minimize the amount of G you pull, because 9/10 don't want to give up all their E just to save your sorry butt.
Apar
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pop... believe me... I am aware of the fact.
Have to say... last night I took the chance and drug a few for some newer guys and they did great. I also seen a few cases of 5 guys not being able to kill one con for a very very long time.
I also cleared a maw guy who had a pee 51 on him. I'm sure the maw was frustrated by how long it took me but I don't think he saw that he also had another friendly with a 51 on it in the conga line. I couldn't get the front 51 until I got the last 51 or I would'a dropped in right in front of his sights plus... the last 51 was about to eat the frindly in front of him who seemed unaware.
lazs
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Originally posted by Tac
true cave. I only make 1 attempt to clear someone's 6, if they turn hard when im doing it, I dont even try for a snapshot I just pull up to climb again and leave them to their fate.
This is why it is essential to talk to the guy being pursued. Tell him where you are and what you are going to do. Also tell him what you want HIM to do.
I can offer two examples from last evening near A1.
I had just finished a bounce of a B-17, attacking straight down in my P-51B. Easing out of the dive, I see a Rook fighter being chased by a Knit F4U. They are both about 5 k below me on a similar heading. Immediately, I contact the Rook pilot (Dark-something, I think) and explain exactly what I intended to do. I told him NOT to turn the Corsair, or I couldn't make the shot with the speed I was carrying. Exactly as hoped for, the Rook pilot limited his evasive maneuvering to jinking. 15 seconds later, his pursuer exploded.
A little while later, it's my turn to drag. Playing tag with several Knits between A19 and A1, I spot a Typhoon trying to gain position on my 6. I break hard right and the Tiffy follows. I set maneuver flaps and we go around and around in a Lufberry. I'm slowly easing away, but it will take a lot of turns to work around the circle and gain position on the Typhoon. Meanwhile, another Rook Mustang comes down to take a crack at the Knit. However, our tight circle doesn't provide much more than a bad angle snapshot, which the Typhoon driver ignores. As the Mustang sets up for another run, I reverse my turn hard left, and the Tiffy tries to follow. This causes him to straighten out long enough for the onrushing Mustang to blow his wing off.
These are two good examples of teamwork, largely successful due to voice communication.
Use the radio guys. It makes life a lot easier and greatly helps in this sort of situation. However, should the teammate in trouble not follow instructions, or simply ignore them, leave him to his fate, he's earned it.
My regards,
Widewing
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Wotan,
Thank you for the succinct post and illustration on dragging!
Originally posted by Wotan
(http://www.3-jg2.com/3jg2image/Drag.gif)
Dragging is an art. Most folks in the main think situational awareness only relates to the knowing where and what the enemy is. With the Icon system in the main most folks have no idea what their country mates around them are flying. I have been in many situations where I am in a position to clear a country mates six and at the last moment before I get a guns solution my country mate breaks hard into me. Leaving me in the position to force a shot and bleed my e or go into a pitch back manuver. Most of the time he will be killed before I get around in a hi yo yo to clear him.
Flying in a squad with fellows who fly the same planes makes "dragging" and "clearing" much easier. When preforming evasives you must be aware of the abilities of the plane and pilot trying to clear you. Never turn into him cutting his angle. Communicate with the guy clearing your six. With the new integrated vox in Aces High it makes it easier to communicate. Think in terms of "setting up" the bandit not just in avoiding his guns. However, fly to live. Dont just stay level catching bullets wondering when help will arrive. Always turn away from your help and keep an eye on his position. Dont make drastic hard manuvers. Just because you're in a niki or spit that doesnt mean the rest of us are. Again staying alive is number 1 concern but all the hard manuvers most likely wont save. Your friends most likely will if you work with him.
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Originally posted by wulfie
You want to be wings level, ready to fire, and begin firing as the enemy begins to roll towards your gunsight
These kind of shots never seem to work for me (or at least I don't see hit sprites) I have a very good connect (rock solid 70-80ms every day since new route) I wonder often if this hurts me, making me a better target than targeter.
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Vox is great WW, problem is english is not my native language.. and in times of great pucker factor, the guy im clearing his 6 will probably hear a a string of curses in spanish shoved in his direction ;) ;)
Thats why I give 3 6 calls at once heheheh. :D *G*