Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eskimo2 on November 03, 2001, 01:20:00 PM
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New Buff Gunnery Model: I Heard it Through the Grapevine!
With the release of 1.09, bombers will fly in flights of 4. One player controlled, and 3 ships programed to follow the leader, most likely in a traditional bomber element. The big question on everyone's mind is:
Who or how will the guns be controlled; player manned or AI? HTC is known for compromise, and I have heard through the Grapevine that HTCs solution will be a combination of the two! The lead bombers guns will be player manned (as they are now) and the remaining planes guns will be AI, but the shooting styles and accuracy will be pattered after actual Aces High players! Naturally, everyone wants as good of a gunner as they can get, so:
Plane #2 AI gunners will shoot like Mitsu.
Plane #3 AI gunners will shoot like Fester.
Plane #4 AI gunners will shoot like Ypsilon.
Happy buff hunting!
eskimo
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I think if HTC uses the player as a model for how effective ai gunners should be and in which types of attacks they are not effective then this system will be very good.
bear with me, I have mastered the art of killing player gunned bombers. and there are guaranteed methods to killing even the best such as craven in his mighty ack star
case in point:
dead 6 attack: high death rate for fighters
low 6 attack: dangerous but harder to track as the fighter moves in for a shot
high 6 attack: if fighter is very fast they are hard to hit, if slow they often get killed by the bomber
12 clock attack: very effective and safe when attacking bombers other than b17g
12 o clock low attack: very effective against all but b17g
12 o clock high diving inverted attack: this is the one that kills all buffs dead 100% of the time and is almost untrackable due to the fighters high speed and the fact that the fighter is constantly moving in an arc across the top of the bomber all the while the fighter is holding its guns on target shreding the buff. my kill to death ratio against buffs with this attack is nearly 1000/1
if htc uses ai gunners similar to the ack code I am leary of how stupidly effective they will be. the current ai ack is extremely stupid in shots that should be cake and waaaaay to good at shots that are just about imposible.
again if the actual players of ah were used as a study for how effective in which angles speeds and deflections an ai gunner should be i think things would improve.
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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when the players buff gets killed he should be transfered to the next buff in his flight
I was thinking the option to choose in tower which buff in the formation to fly would be neat but after further thought im not sure this would be practical. for bombing purposes the player needs to be the lead bomber and transfered to the next bomber that takes the lead when his buff is hit
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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You are forgetting the 'me and some friends' attack wherein you all attack at the same time, and the guy who gets shot at breaks hard, drawing fire, and the others beat the piss out of the buff. That's the best one.
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Im worried about how this will effect my frame rate AGAIN ;) gets low enough as it is with the fps killer sheep :D
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I like the idea of 4-bomber flights, but I do have a recommendation:
Pilot have the option of NOT having all 4 planes (there are times when the AI planes would be unwanted). Also a server-wide option to turn this feature off (once again, there's times when this should be completely disabled).
Then there's the issue of which planes get the option of having 3 AI wingmen. Obviously, heavy bombers will have this feature. But what about medium bombers, or Light bombers? In my opinion, this feature should be for strategic bombers ONLY.
J_A_B
[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: J_A_B ]
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Well the code for this is already there guys. All they have to do is have the other bombers guns shoot at the area you're sight is on the manned gun. They already do this and accuracy is only as good as the guy aiming them. Just the fire All will fire 4 bombers guns that have Line of site on target instead of just one. The problem with this is only 1 target can be fired at at 1 time. there could be 3 51's IB and can only shoot at 1. This would make the possibility of more gunners joined then just 1. Interesting concept and I look forward to the implementation.
RazorDD
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how will killshooter affect your ai buffs? :)
will there be more than one type of formation available? ie: trail, echelon, wedge etc
how will the buffs form up after takeoff if the leader stays at full power? will the ai buffs lag behind using max power and not catch up? (that would rock) perhaps the leader will circle the field at low power to allow his ai buffs to form up on him then go full power when they form up? :)
this is very neat stuff.
wtg HT 4 ship buffs make a lot of sense and will bring a new dimension to flying bombers :) fascinating
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where did u find this out?? :confused: :confused: :confused:
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Well Cit naturally the B17s will just shoot through each other, there wont be a killshooter thing to worry about.
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first thing i thought about this was that it was too gamey.
but the more and more i ponder the 4-ship thing, i like it.
imagine a squad like the DHBGs? sccaary. 10 DHBGs x 4 ships per person?
that's a 40 bomber flight. I'd wet my pants if I saw that.
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S!
All the fighter boys will have to get their sh*t together and coordinate attacks, ie. flight attacks. in order to bust up the bomber formations.
I'll bet the bombers guns will still be set up for more accuracy than historical, since even with 4 plane formations, we won't be seeing 1000 plane raids.
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I wonder if the 32 plane (nondot) limit will treat one player (4ship flight) as one object and not adversely affect the number of nondot player aircraft in AH.
curious
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Originally posted by Citabria:
12 o clock high diving inverted attack: this is the one that kills all buffs dead 100% of the time and is almost untrackable due to the fighters high speed and the fact that the fighter is constantly moving in an arc across the top of the bomber all the while the fighter is holding its guns on target shreding the buff.
I agree with Citabria 100% about this method of attack. I use it whenever it's available to me and time allows for it. It is almost always effective at damaging or killing the bomber with minimal damage to myself.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The discussion of how the guns will be fired is all well and good, but what I want to know is how will the bombs be dropped. Carpet bombing or 4 17's with pinpoint accuracy?
F.
nevermind, i just read the article.
[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: Furious ]
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carpet bombing furious :)
its gonna rock
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Originally posted by eskimo2:
but the shooting styles and accuracy will be pattered after actual Aces High players! Naturally, everyone wants as good of a gunner as they can get, so:
Plane #2 AI gunners will shoot like Mitsu.
Plane #3 AI gunners will shoot like Fester.
Plane #4 AI gunners will shoot like Ypsilon.
Happy buff hunting!
eskimo
i'll take the rollo-bot thank you!
:D
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Rollo-Bots and Craven-Bots will require spending perk points.
:)
eskimo
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I want craven bots
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The more I think about it I love the idea,I guess manning the guns could be done like picking your gun in the fleet,an overhead view of 4 bombers,highlight your gun and join it,sure will be interesting :)
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First off, I am guessing that these drone ships will not be able to cheat and fly into formation if your 100% throttle. You'll have to be gentle and let them get in formation. Because there is no lag, and they're AI you probably won't have much trouble getting into formation.
No more dogfighting bombers. I will guess that collisions with these AI bombers in your flight will be on. You can whip around, but be warned that Captain Chaos and the Cranium Commandoes flying the other planes would crash into you if you fly too rough, turn the formation too fast, or cause them to fly out of control too easy if you do anything whacky. They'll maintain formation only if your gentle. Anything else makes life difficult.
As for gunnery, here are the possiblilies that I see.
1. Same as we have now. you run one bomber and all the guns slave together on that one bomber. The other 3 bombers are sitting ducks. I doubt this is the planned system.
2. Multiple bombers all slaved togther. You thought you could unleash a rain of death, now your x4 stronger. Convergence issues might make that not work too well.
3. Same as we have now, though you can also choose which bomber to man.
4. AI guns on the other AI planes.
Either way, I like how this is going. Carpet bombing is what we need, but I will assume that this also means there will be targets that can ONLY be carpet bombed. Mass fighter bombers will be inefective.
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Originally posted by BenDover:
where did u find this out?? :confused: :confused: :confused:
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp)
:)
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thanks
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"...the guy who gets shot at breaks hard, drawing fire, and the others beat the piss out of the buff." lol. This cracked me up :) And it definately sounds like more fun than my usual method which is to tell em on chnl 1 that they can bail now or get shot down. And then shoot them down.
Westy
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i really donīt understand why with 1.09 people can fly with 3 AI wingman.
The only reason why you canīt see often formations of 4 bomber in the main is that due to the overmodelled firepower people CAN fly alone at the moment.
Improve the gunner system - this means reduce firepower - and pilots are forced to fly in formation. And then you WILL see larger formations, believe me.
Noone can tell me that there are no other bomber pilots with 200 people online, so they have to fly alone. Those people just KNOW that they can go out alone, or they donīt want to fly with others. But if you want to fly alone, you shouldnīt fly bomber.
At the moment you better attack a buff with 2 fighter. Realsim should be that one fighter can attack 2 buffs.
niklas
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IMHO
I don't like this concept. I much prefer 4 real pilots manning thier own buffs and flying in formation. I have alot more respect for pilots who take the time to learn why this tactic was used. Also, the AI concept leaves to much to chance.
If this is implemented tho, I suggest that the "laser" bombsight be modified to actually recreate the inacurracy of ww2 bombing. The target would have to be destroyed with "carpet" bombimg techniques making the 3 wing bombers drop thier loadout at the same time as the lead.
This brings into question, would the lead be able to adjust the distance of the wing bombers with a dot command, say something like .distance X, with X being in yards? Also would the salvo command be applicable to the entire wing? Could the wing be loaded with different loadout? How bout incidnary bombs to drop on cities? The possibilities are endless.... God I love this game :D
Thanks HT and crew :)
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Originally posted by niklas:
i really donīt understand why with 1.09 people can fly with 3 AI wingman.
The only reason why you canīt see often formations of 4 bomber in the main is that due to the overmodelled firepower people CAN fly alone at the moment.
niklas
Nope. Not true.
I took on 6 bombers this morning, all were in formation, b17 and lancs. I was ALONE in my dpony. I broke them up and then set to work on them. I killed 3 bombers and badly mauled a fourth before I got greedy and stayed too long on a lancs six. He took off my wing and I spiralled down. (Pugg (a squaddie) finished him off a few minutes later...)
If the buff firepower is so overmodelled how could I kill 3 without getting pinged and then badly wound the fourth?
I got the bombers to separate and then hit each one in turn. Singleton bombers in AH are easy meat. Getting formations up will be a great feature, for the buff drivers and for buff hunters.
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ubb bug...
Yea, I hope all the guns on every ship fire where the one human gunner is aiming. Boy, that'll make it real fun :rolleyes:
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If this is implemented tho, I suggest that the "laser" bombsight be modified to actually recreate the inacurracy of ww2 bombing. The target would have to be destroyed with "carpet" bombimg techniques making the 3 wing bombers drop thier loadout at the same time as the lead.
You never read the article on Wargammer.com have you?
That is exactly the plan. The Norden bombsight will become much less accurate, bombs will disperse, therefore requiring shotgun/carpet bombing to hit anything. That is why your getting 3 AI bombers too. A lone bomber cannot carpet bomb. Also, the ground targets will be rearanged to be carpet bombed.
Bomber pilots are not pilots in my book anyway. The juicy part of bombing is the bombs and the gun turrets. The pilot is the least action packed part of the bomber. In all honesty I fly using autopilot set on level or climb from the gun turrets anyways. That job only gets fun when your damaged and limping home.
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The gunners on the other bombers should not be slaved to the real gunner. That is BS. Each position should have to acquire it's own target and there should be a delay to simulate the gunner searching and acquiring each individual target.
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in the end i bet HT will impletment the new functions as best he can and without making it impossible to shoot them down.
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Here's my question(s):
If I'm leading a 4 ship of B17s and I lose one, am I charged with a death???
or...
If I'm in a fighter and I take down 4 B17s, am I credited with 4 kills?? Did I shoot the same guy down 4 times?
or...
I'm leading my happy 4 ship of buffs and kill a bunch of fighters. Do I get credited for all of the kills? If not, how do prox kills work? Do I get assists from the bot planes?
These are some basic questions that really should be addressed.
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Well, my point of slaving all guns to the gunner was speaking from experience in FA. AI gunners in FA on the buffs are so overmodelled it is pathetic. I have actually dove in on B26's and TU2's that were looping! and at their apex of the loop which seems to me would be a point of 0G inside the airplane after some horrendous G forces in the pull up. And been blown to bits by the Gunners who IRL would be flopping all around the cabin let alone holding onto a MG aiming at a 400 MPH moving target doing the proper ballistic corrections and nailing the fighter. Now I don't think HT would implement anything at all like this. But those AI Feild flaks are awful close. At least if the guns were slaved to the gunner the aim would only be as good as his aim. If his pilot started evasive manuevers there goes his aim. In an AI environment it gets awful tricky trying to decide when a gunner would be able to shoot and when not. Trying to find the balance between offering protection for the big slow targets and making it survivable for the fighter is extremely hard. You say it shouldn't? Wait and see if they try and implement it. The boys over at MS and VR1 gave up on it cause making both groups happy is an impossibility. My complaint here has always been that those 50 cals in the B17 sure seem to hit harder than my 50 cals in a 51. Not that I thought the aim was too good. I agree with the 4 bomber flight cause if you take away the pinpoint accuracy then you have to go with area bombing which single or even double buffs won't be able to do. And it would force fighter jocks to have to cooperate in killing buffs. Looking down and seeing say 30 buffs in formation going to a target just gets my blood pumping cause this is what it should be all about IMO. Just figuring out all the details will take some work that the HiTech boys, and girls, Are up to and will do a bang up job on it.
RazorDD
P.S. But WTH am I :)
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ai gunners should only work in steady state non maneuvering flight
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only in bomber mode...
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Cit, that is the problem m8. The FA people tried to solve the problem by putting into the code that guns would not fire if there was more than like 2G's being pulled. But when and airplane is in the apex of a slow loop there aren't any G's the G meter goes to 0 and the gunners turn on and wail ya. I don't mean to talk about a flight "Game" in here but it was and is a problem there and just wanted to bring it up here.
RazorDD
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i meant steady state flight:
constant speed/rate climbs/descents and level flight.
nonmaneuvering flight
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Originally posted by Blue Mako:
Nope. Not true.
I took on 6 bombers this morning, all were in formation, b17 and lancs. I was ALONE in my dpony. I broke them up and then set to work on them. I killed 3 bombers and badly mauled a fourth before I got greedy and stayed too long on a lancs six. He took off my wing and I spiralled down. (Pugg (a squaddie) finished him off a few minutes later...)
If the buff firepower is so overmodelled how could I kill 3 without getting pinged and then badly wound the fourth?
I got the bombers to separate and then hit each one in turn. Singleton bombers in AH are easy meat. Getting formations up will be a great feature, for the buff drivers and for buff hunters.
Obviously you met some unexperienced pilots/ gunners. I mean, a flight of experienced bomber pilots wouldnīt have separated.
And no hit at all? Did you attack them when they jumped in the norden view to aim, so they couldnīt man the gunner ? ;)
When you could kill 3 or almost 4 buffs with your ī50AP, then itīs a good hint how overmodelled the hitpower of the ī50 is btw ;)
niklas