Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: eskimo2 on June 13, 2002, 03:42:29 PM
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CMs, Please do not read this as a criticism, but as a future request from a CT regular; please use less substitutions, especially fighters for the Allies.
Any allied plane-set, be it: Brit, USN, US-Army or Russian is very competitive against either Japanese or German planes.
Naturally, numbers in the CT often sway toward the good guys (the Allies), so an extra plane or two is not necessary.
Most importantly, the historical feel is often lost. I Think I only flew 2 (long) sessions this past week, and both times the Axis were out-numbered, so I went/stayed Axis. At times the arena seemed more like the BOB than Russia. I would have preferred more "pure" fights for the immersion factor, I.E. Russian Vs. German. The historical match-ups are the #1 reason why I fly and love the CT.
For both game-play and historical/tactical accuracy, I think the Spit and Hurri especially should generally not be used outside of western Europe. In a 109, what defensive tactic should you use against a mixed pair: (LA-5 and Spit) or (P-38 and Spit)?
I am looking forward to this week's set-up, where when I'm in a Zeke I can shoot at blue planes only, and when I'm in the Tubby-Cat I can shoot at red-meatballs only!
Thanks for all your hard work guys!
You help make part of my life very fun!
eskimo
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Bravo! Well said.
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Here here! I second what eskimo says! Being one who usually dies with the CT underdogs its lately been nothing but LW rides for me and didn't see any way for them to compete against the spit/la5 combo . Historical or not the spit9's really blew the balance of gameplay imho.
Short of both sides having very similar performing aircraft it seems like the best matchups would give one side a speed advantage and the other a maneuverability advantage... fwiw..
Sqrl
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it aint whining guys, I fly allied with the squad, and I see it too. Not much you can do with a mixed crowd like that, and although I know the staff will say these planes were in that theater of operations (which they were), I still think pure russia vs lwobble is fine. As a squad the divisions all fly the same planes, but I have to admit when the wings mix, you do have the spit la5 mixing bowl.
see yall up tonight.
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my favorite is usually to put my head btwn my legs and kiss my arse goodbye :)
I agree with Eskimo
I'd love to see a week without icons, just to see what it be like and to hear the whines :)
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well then the vvs would have 2 fighters and a thread will fill up about how unfair that it is.
There were p39s, yak 1s, yak 7s, la5s and yak 9s (not 9u's)
There were a20 pe2 and tu-2s
Until we get more of this and more of that there has to be some compromises.
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Originally posted by Wotan well then the vvs would have 2 fighters and a thread will fill up about how unfair that it is.
There were p39s, yak 1s, yak 7s, la5s and yak 9s (not 9u's)
There were a20 pe2 and tu-2s
Until we get more of this and more of that there has to be some compromises.
Aw come on Wotan no matter what you guys do we'll find something to complain about. ;)
Soon you'll have the lend lease P-40 available, and we can whine about that too.:D
A Spitless Russinan front sounds good to me.
Maybe Wotan has an addiction and needs to shoot down a certain number of spits every week.:p
Wotan
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Originally posted by Wotan
well then the vvs would have 2 fighters and a thread will fill up about how unfair that it is.
Heh heh. Could be, Wotan, could be. OTOH, isn't that just the same situation we presently have in any PAC fight?
I'll back Eskimo up here. We'd all like more bolshevik and Japanese planes, but the ones we already have are pretty good. Leave the spits and hurris in England.
- oldman
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.. I'd love to see a week without icons
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Eagler: I'd like to see that too, but we don't have a "no-icon" setting in the CM tool box. If I recall correctly, HiTech said he would not implement this...ever.
As for my esteemed squadie's idea, in principle I agree with Eskimo. Where possible, we try to avoid plane substitutions. If you go back in time and look at special events and the like, you'll see we're doing substitutions less and less as we get more a/c. So the trend is in the right directions. At the same time, we need to provide a balanced arena, so sometimes we sub later models for earlier ones, or include a later a/c (like the N1K2 in the upcoming "Clash of the Titans" set up) to insure it's not too one-sided.
As for Spit's in the Black Sea set up, I could live without them. However, they've not been as rampant as in other set-ups. Most of the enemy fighters I've run into this week have been La5. When I flew VVS, I flew the Yak-9T...and was pleasantly surprised by it. One shot, one kill:D.
Sabre
CT Staff
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"I'd like to see that too, but we don't have a "no-icon" setting in the CM tool box. If I recall correctly, HiTech said he would not implement this...ever"
Wonder why? Worried about low numbers ? LOL
Maybe he said this in the beginning when he thought it'd be a bigger hit than it has turned out (on average) to be. I think CT should be a room in which everything is tried, at least once.
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absolutely eagler.
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I certainly wouldn't mind leaving off with the substitutions/including aircraft that were extremely rare in the theatre, but.... It would have to apply for both sides (e.g. no Spit IXs or Mosquito VIs in North Africa, but no Fw190A-5s or C.205s either).
FWIW, I disagree with entirely leaving the Spits and Hurris in England. Spits and Hurris did fight in every theatre and for some theatres they are simply appropriate, even outside of Western Europe.
Eagler,
I don't think Hitech is interested because flying without icons would be like flying when you are legally blind. Monitor resolutions are really that bad and that poor a substitute for our real vision.
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fw190a5s were in north afrika
Despite the heavy attacks from Axis aircraft, the battle at Medenine was lost, with Rommel losing fifty tanks to the British 6-pounder anti-tank guns and a squadron of Sherman tanks. The British suffered 130 casualties and lost no tanks. ++
Meanwhile, II./JG 2s time in the North African desert was coming to an end. On 8 March, the unit attacked eleven Spitfire Vs of 232 Sqdn over Bizerta, downing one and damaging two, and later that day Oblt Bühligen shot down a pair of Spitfires of the 307th FS/31st FG. However in return, Uffz Erich Engelbrecht was shot down and killed, and Uffz Alfred Sonntag was wounded. Three days later, on the 11th, Lt Rudorffer (2) and Bühligen (1) again claimed to have destroyed Spitfires, this time the victims came from the 52nd FG. On the following day, the Gruppe scored its last three Tunisian victories. Rudorffer and Bühligen both shot down B-17s during a raid on Sousse, and Ofw Kurt Goltzsch downed a P-38 of the 1st FG. Two days later, on 15 March 1943, II./JG 2 left Tunisia for Creil, north of Paris, where it would exchange its FW 190A-4s and A-5s for Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6s. Lt Erich Rudorffer was confirmed as Gruppenkommandeur, and the Gruppe would soon return to action over Europe. +++
Following the disappearance of II./JG 2 from the scene, the FW 190 Jabos would continue their work, and III./SKG 10 was bolstered by the arrival mid-March of II./Sch.G. 2. With extra numbers, FW 190 Jabos were now able to support the southern front in Tunisia as well as the northern front, and on 20 March, the first FW 190 was lost in the south to I SAAF Sqdn Spitfires. Losses continued to mount, on the 25th Uffz Heinrich Heil of III./SKG 10 was hurt when his FW 190 somersaulted on landing at Gabes West airfield, and the next day, Uffz Kurt Klotsch of the same unit crashed on take-off from the same airfield. On the 25th, III./SKG 10 adopted a new routine. The unit would be based at Bizerta and Djedeida during the day, but at night would transfer to San Pietro in Sicily, and this airfield exchange would continue until the unit left Tunisia in May.++++
The Jabos had returned to attacking Allied airfields, and during one of these operations on 2 April, Uffz Peter von Zareba, a Hungarian member of III./SKG 10, was accidently shot down and killed by Luftwaffe Bf 109s near El Guettar. On the following day, FW 190s attacked both Victoria and Waterloo landing grounds (part of Souk-el-Arba airfield) in the afternoon, bombing and strafing, and destroying a number of British aircraft on the ground. FW 190 Jabo attacks weren’t limited to airfields, and during an attack on tanks on 8 April 1943, Lt Klemens Graf von Westerholt of III./SKG 10 was killed by a direct hit from an AA shell. Allied fighters were proving to be equally as dangerous, when RAF Spitfires of 243 Sqdn wounded Uffz Willi Georg of III./SKG 10 on the 9th. AA fire was also the cause of Uffz Philipp Kummert’s death on the 10th, and Uffz Horst Bauwerker’s death over Oued Zarga on the 11th. Both pilots were from III./SKG 10, which suffered a number of losses during early April. The Jabos gained revenge for their losses on the 16th during a dusk attack on Souk el Arba airfield and the Victoria landing ground, when they damaged six A-20s.
The end was in sight for the Axis in North Africa, and ground attack missions now concentrated on troops in the Pont du Fahs and Medjez el Bab regions. During these operations a number of losses were sustained by III./SKG 10, with Uffz Friedrich Rott being shot down on 24 April over Pont du Fahs by 152 Sqdn Spitfires. On the following day the FW 190s returned to Pont du Fahs, being escorted by the Bf 109s of I./JG 77. One pilot who didn’t join in this attack was Ofw Ludwig Seif of III./SKG 10 who was wounded in unknown circumstances at Sidi Ahmed airfield. Attacks on Pont du Fahs and Medjez el Bab continued on the 27th, although Allied air resistance in the area was stiffening, with RAF Spitfires flying patrols over Pont du Fahs.
By May 1943 the situation in Tunisia was chaotic for the Axis. Even so, III./SKG 10 remained on African soil until just a week before Axis surrender in the theatre. By this time, the Allies had total air superiority, and new types were entering service, namely the P-51 Mustang with RAF and USAAF squadrons. The opening day of May saw III./SKG 10 suffer a severe blow, when the Staffelkapitän of 11.Staffel, Oblt Friedrich Wilhelm Borchert, was killed in a crash on take-off from his Tunisian base. On the 4th II./Sch.G. 2 suffered a loss when Fw Rudolf Johne was wounded by flak over Tunis, and the next day an RAF Mustang of 225 Sqdn claimed an FW 190 damaged over Bizerta.
By now the end was near for the Luftwaffe units still based in North Africa, and III./SKG 10 began withdrawing from Tunisia to Sicily on 6 May, continuing withdrawal the next day. On the 7th, two pilots of the unit - Uffz Heinz Hunger and Uffz Hans-Jurgen Wellendorf - were killed when they crashed at Gela, Sicily, after evacuating their Tunisian base. Meanwhile, II./Sch.G. 2 continued operations, and on the 8th, Oblt Siegfried Basse was shot down and killed in his FW 190 near Tunis. Two days later another pilot of the unit was killed over Tunis, this time it was Lt Alfred Psczolla.
All remaining Axis forces in Tunisia surrendered on 13 May. The victorious Allies came across a number of abandoned or wrecked FW 190s as they moved in to occupy ex-Axis territory. Most of these aircraft were Jabos and a majority were from III./SKG 10, and the number of these still carrying factory codes illustrate how chaotic the final days in Tunisia were for the Luftwaffe, there wasn’t even enough time to paint codes on to new aircraft.
Some of these abandoned FW 190s included:
FW 190G-3 White K of 7./SKG 10 which was captured at Gela, Sicily in 1943
FW 190A-4/U8 Werk Nummer 0142308 of III./SKG 10 captured at La Sebala, Tunisia
FW 190A-5/U8 Werk Nummer 0181684 White 10 of III./SKG 10
FW 190 Jabo KM + EY found in a damaged state at Tunis airfield in May 1943
FW 190 Jabo White 1 (Yellow 1?) found at El Aouina airfield in May 1943
FW 190 Jabo found in a damaged state in a hanger at El Aouina
FW 190 Jabo White 16 (Yellow 16?) found with White 1 (Yellow 1?) at El Aouina
To end this narrative of the FW 190’s involvement in the North African campaign, I’ll relate one of the more bizarre stories involving the FW 190 in Tunisia, an incident that occurred in the chaotic final days of the campaign. Lt Armin Köhler of I./JG 77 describes it as follows:
“Obergefreiter Schomaker [of I./JG 77] got back [to Sicily] in an FW 190. As well as the pilot, the plane had four men aboard. An astonishing performance.”
From: Shores, Christopher/Ring, Hans/Hess, William N Fighters Over Tunisia, page 381
***** = Sources claim III./SKG 10 Jabos in Tunisia were a number of variants, and practically every source is contradictory. Claims include:
FW 190A-2 (Holm)
FW 190A-3 (Holm)
FW 190A-3/U3s (Gunston)
FW 190A-4/Trops (Morse)
FW 190A-5/U3 (Holm)
FW 190G-2s (Jackson)
FW 190G-3s (Jessen)
FW 190A-4 Jabos (numerous sources).
In fact, III./SKG 10 operated FW 190A-1s, FW 190A-2s, FW 190A-3s, FW 190A-4s and FW 190A-5s. Sch.G.2 mainly operated FW 190A-5s, including the A-5/U3s and A-5/U8s - these were of course later re-designated as FW 190Gs
****** = Shores, C., Ring, H. & Hess, W.N. Fighters Over Tunisia
+ = Kreigstagebuch der III./SKG 10
++ = Bryant, A. The Turn of the Tide
+++ = Weal, J. Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Western Front, page 37
++++ = Holm, M.
Schnellkampfgeschwader 10 (http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/skg10.htm)
Gotto the bottom where it reads
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, Stab/SKG10
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, I./SKG10
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, II./SKG10
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, III./SKG10
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, IV./SKG10
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, Erg.Sta./SKG10
Follow the links check dates for early '43.
The mosquito wasnt there and very few spit 9s (that is operating directly out of bases in North Afrika) were there. But there was all kinds of whining that the axis had the speed advantage with a5s so brady put it in. This despite the allies having p51bs and p38ls.
There were p51a and p38f/gs. Also a20s and b25s were there. Wellingtons operating out of egypt were there. the a36 arrived just after the germans with draw and participated in attacks on pant. And a whole heck of a lot of p40s were there.
You guys all want "just the planes that were there" but when we give umm to yas out come the "my side is disadvantaged" and the "we need this to make up for that" threads.
If you take a look at the axis and allied air oobs for the tunisia you will see that the subs and or fantasy additions never came close to matching the real capabilities each side had. The lw had 210s operating in North afrika.
So we sort through and pick out, as best we can, balanced planeset.
Take Kusk for instance. The vvs would have had 3 planes to use in that set up. la5 yak9t and the il2. the la5fn wasnt that common so it should have been limited. that leaves the 109t which again wasnt the comon vrs of Yak used at kursk.
So we can just stick with eto setups until we get more planes or we make do :)
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Wotan,
So your contention is that 75% of the Luftwaffe aircraft used in North Africa were Fw190A-5s? That's what I saw in the last North Africa setup.
I guess all those photos of Bf109F-4s and the books that mention them were way off.:rolleyes:
If the Fw190A-5 was there in significant numbers, then put it in and perk it.
Keep the Spit IX and Mossie VI out of North Africa.
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spit 9 has yet to be in a north africa setup as far as I remember. I think the mossie is so underused when it is there that there is no problem. We normally have the p38 which carriers just as much if not more payload anyway.
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Karnak SKG10 had 90 190a5s operating 2/43-3/43 thats 1 group.
I can post numbers for each unit later.
I gotta run now.
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Wotan,
Once again, please don't read this thread as a criticism. You've done a great job with this set-up, it was well researched and well set-up. I could certainly see myself making the same plane-choices that you did. It can be hard to predict exactly how a set-up will turn out once the players show up. Much of what I have determined about the CT has been only recent conclusions/ideas/opinions.
With any set-up, there are two main issues concerning plane choice; historical accuracy and game-play balance;
Historical accuracy is a tough one because there were so many more plane types involved in any WWII air battle than we have to choose from in RL. As diverse as the AH plane-set is now, hardly any air battles could be fought in AH with truly the proper planes. At best, variants of particular planes types need to be substituted to make a set-up possible.
And then there's the issue of what to do about planes that were not used in large numbers in a given battle. To make things worse, very often certain planes were only available at certain bases. I know this makes your job tough.
Game-play balance is almost a tougher issue because in most WWII air battles, one side had a clear advantage over the other. It would be fun to re-enact the Marianas Turkey Shoot, but who the heck would want to play the Japanese? We could host this battle, however, with game-play concessions.
Basically, one side should not have both the fastest planes and the best turning planes, especially where the difference is great. I would not advocate a set-up where the Allies have the P-51D and P-47D-30, Vs. the Axis having the ME-262, 190D-9, and 109F. In this set-up, the jets will bleed the E from the jugs and stangs down to 250 MPH where the 109Fs thrive.
Another game-play issue is that it seems that more people choose to fly Allied. This is my opinion only, but it seems that no matter what the set-up, more folks want to (understandably) fly for the good guys. Perhaps to counter this, when in doubt leave a plane out of the Allied selection...? Again, this is just my opinion.
Another issue is the number of planes to choose from on each side. There has been some criticism of the CT for not having much in plane choice. Personally, I wonder if those who have made this critique actually ever fly in the CT no matter what the set-up/choice? Who are we catering to? How few planes would CT participants be happy with? Personally, I'd be happy with only the Hellcat (or only the hog) as a fighter against the entire Japanese arsenal.
I don't think that we need to fear too few plane choices in the CT. But that's just my opinion.
Thanks,
eskimo
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"For both game-play and historical/tactical accuracy, I think the Spit and Hurri especially should generally not be used outside of western Europe."
Just what world do you live in?
And I'm surprised at you, Oldman. While there may be good game play reasons to limit Spits/Hurris (not that I've ever seen any good reasons proposed, mind you....) there are absolutly no historical reasons.
You are aware that the Spit and Hurri fought in every theatre, arn't you?
May as well limit the P-38 or the Jug to ETO only ops.
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Hey guys, I think somebody hit the nail on the head and that is the imbalance that sometimes happens.
I think we all try to even this out though, and really I have never been in a ct arena and said to myself"i dont stand a chance" when flying with a group. 1 on 1 of course the spit 5 and hurri are gonna be nasty, but that rarely happens.
Hell, one of my squadies thrashed me roundly with a zero yesterday, but of course that was 1 on 1 with me in an f6f and no fuel. The only thing a f6f could do in rl in that situation was bnz but i did not have the gas for it, nor the gas for running. i digress.........
I think all of us regulars choose interesting aircraft, keep it interesting, and even the sides already, so maybe its not so much what the staff gives us, its what we choose to fly..........
as for me, I stay out of the 38s and 47s but that spit v and hurri is just too fun.
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Originally posted by Seeker
And I'm surprised at you, Oldman. While there may be good game play reasons to limit Spits/Hurris (not that I've ever seen any good reasons proposed, mind you....) there are absolutly no historical reasons.
You are aware that the Spit and Hurri fought in every theatre, arn't you?
May as well limit the P-38 or the Jug to ETO only ops.
Lurker.
AH, even in the CT, gives us choices that real world pilots simply did not have. I'm fairly certain that if given the chance, all German pilots in North Africa would have selected A-5s; all Japanese would have picked Nikis; and all Russians would have flown Spitfires. That is a somewhat-exaggerated, but pretty close, description of what we see in the CT. Even tho' the Spit and Hurri actually fought all over the world, they were not a major part of the forces in many of those places. So, yes, I advocate eliminating them from many setups simply because what actually happens in the CT departs so significantly from what actually happened in WWII. If I'm on the Russian front, I expect to see Russian planes.
- oldman
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"If I'm on the Russian front, I expect to see Russian planes"
Couldn't agree more.
Bring the P-39 to Aces High!
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Lurker.
AH, even in the CT, gives us choices that real world pilots simply did not have. I'm fairly certain that if given the chance, all German pilots in North Africa would have selected A-5s; all Japanese would have picked Nikis; and all Russians would have flown Spitfires. That is a somewhat-exaggerated, but pretty close, description of what we see in the CT. Even tho' the Spit and Hurri actually fought all over the world, they were not a major part of the forces in many of those places. So, yes, I advocate eliminating them from many setups simply because what actually happens in the CT departs so significantly from what actually happened in WWII. If I'm on the Russian front, I expect to see Russian planes.
- oldman
Good point and well said.
eskimo